Re: First Internet message and ...

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Yes.
But what REALLY happened was even more exciting than some cockamamy TV 
news "Birthday of the internet!" headline story with a segue into malware 
and fake news warnings.


The message being discussed, "LO[GIN]", was an important "proof of 
concept" of what could eventually be done.



More worrisome is that Murray is NOT A "NEWCOMER" who will be "scared off" 
by corrections of his facts!  This is not the first time that he has 
needed to be admonished to be VERY specific about what was "FIRST" about 
something.  He wrote about the exact same event three weeks ago, on the 
correct date, with much more accurate details, other than calling it "the 
first inter-computer communication".  Not sure where he got the November 
21 date, nor the "SIXTY years ago" (probably a simple misteak)


He is quite capable of some fairly good writing.  I don't remember any 
prior time that he had to be reminded to "PICK A TOPIC!" rather than 
string together eight unrelated concepts into four sentences.



On the other hand, if his confusion was recreational, that's OK, too.
Let's have a toast with him to the people who got the idea to work, 
disunirregardless of who was "first".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com


On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:


Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.

I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.

It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.

One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.

All the Best,
Jim


On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk 
wrote:



OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.

Gah,

Re: First Internet message and ...

[Richard Pope via cctalk]

Jim,
Well said and Thank-you!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/24/2019 10:37 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:

Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.

I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.

It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.

One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.

All the Best,
Jim


On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk 
wrote:


OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.

Gah,

Re: First Internet message and ...

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.

I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.

It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.

One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.

All the Best,
Jim


On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
> Pick a topic and get concise.
>
> Gah,
>

Re: First Internet message and ...

[allison via cctalk]

On 11/24/19 5:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
> is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
> democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
> mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
> Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
> mainly through the hardware side.
> 
> Happy computing.
> 
> Murray  ☺
> 

OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.

Gah,

Re: First Internet message and ...

[Richard Pope via cctalk]

Hello all,
That is cool! I have been using the Internet from the time when you 
had to sign up with Compuserve or AOL to gain access. There was no 
private Internet access like what we have today. I was using a VIC-20, 
then a C-64, then a C-128, then an Amiga1000, then on to an Amiga2000, 
then an Amiga4000T. Lots of fun and memories.

GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/24/2019 5:44 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk
 wrote:

The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA.

50, not 60.

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/

Source: ARPA.

https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg

I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
sources say, later the same night.

So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.

Re: First Internet message and ...

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA.

50, not 60.

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/

Source: ARPA.

https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg

I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
sources say, later the same night.

So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: "First Internet message" and ... A WHOLE LOT OF UNRELATED STUFF.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.


Is that message about
1) history of internet?  (THANK YOU for specifying "internet", otherwise 
"computer to computer" involves much older history.  Definition and 
history of the WORD "internet" is also critical, the October 29, 
1969 ARPANET message is a more arguable contender.)
BTW, do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to 
the December 1974 RFC about TCP?
Therefore, those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on 
the internet.
(MOST other messages about "first" anything are arguable due to ignored 
prior history  (cf. Columbus, Osborne Portable, etc.)


2) one-to-one V one-to-many V many-to-many?  (are you saying that it was 
one-to-many?)


3) "though cctalk runs through a moderator"   CCTALK moderation?   (what 
is the connection?)


4) internet "democratization"/"freedon"?  (or is that a "contrast" 
lead-in for discussing misinformation?)


5) misinformation/unreliability of what you read?

6) computerization of society?

7) cctalk as a view of computerization of society?   REALLY?
(a significant resource, ceretainly; telling the story? doubtful)

8) cctalk as being hardware side?

If it is about ALL of those, please break it up into eight paragraphs, 
or maybe even eight separate posts, instead of four disjointed sentences, 
and flesh it out to make your points about each.  You've got some good 
points to make, but this salad of concepts doesn't do them justice.
For example, moderation of cctalk might be interpreted as being about a 
bottleneck of one/many-to-many, OR as being related to misinformation.

Being thrown into an unrelated sentence takes away meaning.


The October 29, 1969 ARPANET message was "LO".  It was claimed to be 
"LOGIN", interrupted by system crash.  Sometimes misinterpreted as being 
slang for "HELLO", or even LOL.

https://thisdayintechhistory.com/10/29/first-message-on-the-internet/
Notice also that they had the sense not to rely on computers for 
maintaining the logs!  Or maybe handwriting was more economical than 
computer resources (cf. "The Feeling Of Power" by Asimov 1958)

First Internet message and ...

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.

Happy computing.

Murray  ☺

Re: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies

[Jonathan Haddox via cctalk]

Yes, I was able to determine that the TurboDOS 1.41c disks which would complete 
my particular setup do exist and that they are in good hands, however I have 
not been able to get copies of the disks as of yet.  I'm hoping that patience 
will prevail and perhaps another copy will turn up or the copies that I know 
about might someday become available.  

The 16-bit 1.43 version that you need is readily available as 5.25" disk 
images.  I've got copies of them and they work well.  If you need it on 8" 
floppy, I can probably convert them using my IMS system to write them to 8".  
Getting a system up and running is not that difficult, I can guide you through 
if there's any trouble.

Jonathan

__
did anything more ever turn up?
I'd like to try getting a 16-bit 1.43 running, there is a set of disks on ebay, 
but the seller has blocked me
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193098921854

On 6/28/19 7:17 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote:
>  Just sending a thanks for the replies from various folks on this list. I was 
> able to recover a partial set of operating system files for my 
> IMS/LF-Technologies S-100 machine from members who dug deep into their 
> archives. It's booting now to a basic single-user TurboDOS 1.4 which proves 
> that my hardware is sound. In order to get what I really want out of this 
> machine, I still need to source a full set of TurboDOS 1.4 drivers (.REL 
> files) from IMS L/F Tech distribution diskettes. I'll be around if they ever 
> turn up.
> 
> Thank You!
> 
> IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
> IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
> IMS A930 Floppy controller
> IMS A465 64K RAM
> IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
> IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
> IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
> IMS 1120 Tape ControllerOn Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 11:55:29 AM CDT, 
> Jonathan Haddox  wrote:  
>  
>  I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.? I've got all 
> the pieces except for the Operating System.? I'm hoping that someone here may 
> have a disk stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would need 
> TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.? I've seen 
> TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was 
> greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.? 
> I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan
> new_castle_j? at yahoo  

Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

Those waveform window displays are from an HP / Agilent 16700 series logic
analyzer.  Easy to recognize the HP-UX U/I if you have used one.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019, 6:46 AM W2HX via cctalk  wrote:

> Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those
> displays?
>
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Joseph Zatarski
> via cctalk 
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
>
> Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
> anybody was curious about this.
>
> https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem
>

Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

[Joseph Zatarski via cctalk]

I used an HP 16700A, which you can see in the video I linked some time back:

https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc

On 11/24/19 8:27 AM, W2HX wrote:

Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those 
displays?

73 Eugene W2HX

From: cctalk  on behalf of Joseph Zatarski via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
anybody was curious about this.

https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem

On 6/17/19 7:56 PM, Joe Zatarski wrote:

OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6

Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the
MS650-AA, and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.

Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of
memory, the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them),
explanations of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a
list of which bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski mailto:joezatar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
  >
  > Hey Everyone,
  >
  > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about
troubleshooting the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
  >
  > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
  >
  > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to
do a lot of panning anyway.
  >
  > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM
card itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds
to, which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
  >
  > Regards,
  > Joe Zatarski

Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

[W2HX via cctalk]

Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those 
displays?

73 Eugene W2HX

From: cctalk  on behalf of Joseph Zatarski via 
cctalk 
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
anybody was curious about this.

https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem

On 6/17/19 7:56 PM, Joe Zatarski wrote:
> OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6
>
> Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the
> MS650-AA, and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.
>
> Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of
> memory, the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them),
> explanations of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a
> list of which bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski  > wrote:
>  >
>  > Hey Everyone,
>  >
>  > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about
> troubleshooting the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
>  >
>  > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
>  >
>  > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to
> do a lot of panning anyway.
>  >
>  > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
> them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM
> card itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
> documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds
> to, which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  > Joe Zatarski

Re: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff) Status update: Things work!

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Good news in the meantime: I did a fair bit of testing last night and I 
have a good terminator, 2 good cables, one good RLV12, and one good RL02.


The second RL02 was odd: It would spin up, come to ready with no 
problems. However when I tried to boot it would endlessly seek a few 
tracks in a loop and go no further. Odd. So to isolate the problem I 
pulled the controller board and lid from my working RL02, put it on the 
odd one, and sure enough the odd one works.


Went to the shed and found my spare RL02 controller board I bought on 
Ebay an eternity ago. Put it back in the odd drive (putting the good 
lid/controller back on the good drive), powered it up, and once again it 
works!


RL's are pretty solid little drives. Not much capacity, but after 
sitting for 20 years they fire right up and get to work without a lot of 
fuss...


So now I have two working RL02's. I'm going to spend some time today 
making a few backups of my RSX11M 4.2 install media (wonder if DSC is 
still on there), then think about doing a proper SYSGEN in the next few 
weeks. I'll have to put in the DZV11 so I can have some serial ports 
(and Sysgen is a pain in that you have devices and *that's it*) but if I 
can get something running here I should be able to remount the MTI ESDI 
disk and get some data back. We shall see


Chris

On 11/23/2019 3:14 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > From: Chris Zach

 > The MSV11-QC board ... failed startup diagnostics with what looks like
 > a stuck bit. .. now I need engineering schematics for that board so I
 > can replace one of the 41256 memory chips. On the positive side it looks 
like
 > a pretty obvious stuck bit, just need to know which chip is at that
 > address and memory location

I suspect you're out of luck on the prints, I think all there is is the
User Manual. Not to worry, it should be pretty easy to create a bit->chip
table, I did that for the MSV11-J:

   https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J_QBUS_memory#Technical_information

when I needed to repair one; it should be pretty easy to duplicate the
process for the -Q.

I did it with a 2-instruction scope loop, doing a word write to a given
location, floating a '1' bit along a word of '0's, looking at the 'data in'
pin on the DRAM chips. I see the -Q has a 17x8 array of DRAMs, so 16 bits of
data and a parity bit (odd chip out); so in some ways even easier than the -J
(which had ECC). 8 banks, but with a little luck they're in some sort of
logical order.

I have a -QA, of the later etch rev, which is the same etch as your -QC;
so I can help with the mapping process, if you need it; let me know.

Noel