date:20210326

The document refers to 8 bit (7+P+F) and 7 bit (6+P+F) using the same
width, 25.4mm, for ECMA-10.

>From the docs that have been linked, whirlwind tape was 7 bit, but not
EIA-RS-227 or ECMA-10 compliant, but easily re-created by trimming a data
bits width from normal 8 level tape. (LSB should be trimmed, not MSB, I
think)

I have a teletype BRPE which supported a 7 level tape format, but I do not
know if it was ECMA-10 or whirlwind style, but it may be buried in the docs
available online.

-Eric

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 8:10 PM Ron Pool via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 3/26/21, 8:41 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" <
> cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape
> layouts and dimensions, but I did see a
> > number of references that speak of 7/8th inch tape for 7 channel
> layout.  (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case)
>
> ECMA-10 defines some of the common punched tape layouts and includes
> dimensions and other requirements.
> I'm not sure if this is the document that Paul is referring to.
>
> https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/
>
>
>
>

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Ron Pool via cctalk

On 3/26/21, 8:41 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" 
 wrote:
> I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape 
> layouts and dimensions, but I did see a
> number of references that speak of 7/8th inch tape for 7 channel layout.  
> (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case)

ECMA-10 defines some of the common punched tape layouts and includes dimensions 
and other requirements.
I'm not sure if this is the document that Paul is referring to.

https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/

Re: punching paper tape




> On Mar 26, 2021, at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 3/26/21 2:58 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the 
>> same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so
>> I gather it's nothing special after all.
> 
> the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right 
> of
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG
> 
> you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape

I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape layouts 
and dimensions, but I did see a number of references that speak of 7/8th inch 
tape for 7 channel layout.  (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case)

paul

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk


On 3/26/21 2:58 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:


OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same paper 
tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so
I gather it's nothing special after all.



the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right of
http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG

you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Steve Malikoff via cctalk

Dwight said
> I think it really depends on what reader he is putting it on. If it is a 
> standard newer 8 bit reader, the ASR33 punched tape is fine.
> Dwight

OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same 
paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so
I gather it's nothing special after all.

Steve.

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Tony Duell via cctalk

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 6:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:

> "UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out.
> Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it.

And 'TESTED' does not mean 'working'. If I power up a hard drive and
it sounds like a cat fed backwards through a lawnmower (aka a
headcrash) then I've 'tested' it. OK, it has failed the test in terms
of working, but

30-odd years ago there was a chap at a radio rally (much the same as a
hamfest) with 2 piles of PC-type hard drives. One was 'tested and
working'. The other was 'untested'. What's the betting that most, if
not all, of the latter did not work?

-tony

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread dwight via cctalk

I think it really depends on what reader he is putting it on. If it is a 
standard newer 8 bit reader, the ASR33 punched tape is fine.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Steve Malikoff via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 2:15 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: punching paper tape

Guy said
>   You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with
> the same pitch as what became eight-track tape.
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf
>
>   I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an
> eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track...
> There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but
> I'm certainly not going to try using one.  The tape is for "pedagogical"
> purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do
> fine.
>   But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm
> glad to give it a try!

Do you have some more detailed specs for Whirlwind tape?
I can add it to ptap2dxf   https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf

It can do 8-level, 7-level, 5-level, Creed, USN Wheatstone, Morse, Teletype 
chadless and
variations of those (mirrored, inverse, letters, sprocket hole any position 
etc) so another
obscure format would be fun to add. Only a few of these have been physically 
tested mind
you, as I don't have anything to read the odd ones with.

Steve.

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Steve Malikoff via cctalk

Guy said
>   You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with
> the same pitch as what became eight-track tape.
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf
>
>   I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an
> eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track...
> There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but
> I'm certainly not going to try using one.  The tape is for "pedagogical"
> purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do
> fine.
>   But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm
> glad to give it a try!


Do you have some more detailed specs for Whirlwind tape?
I can add it to ptap2dxf   https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf

It can do 8-level, 7-level, 5-level, Creed, USN Wheatstone, Morse, Teletype 
chadless and
variations of those (mirrored, inverse, letters, sprocket hole any position 
etc) so another
obscure format would be fun to add. Only a few of these have been physically 
tested mind
you, as I don't have anything to read the odd ones with.

Steve.

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Robert Harrison via cctalk

My offer is $0.01, but only if you pay shipping. Hard to believe you actually 
got a serious offer. HaHa

Sent from my iPhone
Robert Harrison
b...@tds.net

> On Mar 26, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Ali,
>You are probably correct but it was just something that i have done in the 
> past to get a HDD working by combining two to make one. Just my two cents. 
> Anyone want to buy a used, I believe it stills works, ANTIQUE and COLLECTABLE 
> 100MB SCSI 1 HDD for say $1,000,000 OBO?
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
> 
> On 3/26/2021 10:14 AM, Ali wrote:
>>> Rob,
>>>  Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some
>>> of
>>> the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad
>>> interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the
>>> good
>>> cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and
>>> then label the drive as being refurbished?
>>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>>> rich!
>>> P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on
>>> hand delivering the item to the client!
>> No,
>> 
>> Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time 
>> things will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. 
>> generally work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover 
>> their entire inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are 
>> just out the cost of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 
>> Euros.
>> 
>> Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I 
>> believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" 
>> off of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 
>> for UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S) was ok for me I 
>> went ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price 
>> of the drives and tried to keep the S Pretty clever scam and would work 
>> on most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S is 
>> "non-refundable". S was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to 
>> have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back 
>> guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste.
>> 
>> I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that’s 
>> about it.
>> 
>> -Ali
>> 
>> 
>

Re: punching paper tape

For short tapes, running it through a rotary paper cutter rig would let you
cut it down to the right width. Problem is you could not use anything but a
custom built or modified reader. Leaving the MSB 0 would get you accurate 7
bit bytes/words with 8 bit byte alignment for simplified reading and
storing of files on modern systems, and allow usage of common punches and
readers.

I would suggest punching a number of 8 level tapes, then taking a few and
cutting them down so you have readable tapes, and then historically
accurate tapes for demonstration/display purposes.

-Eric

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 3:43 PM Guy Fedorkow  wrote:

> Paul,
>   You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with
> the same pitch as what became eight-track tape.
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf
>
>   I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an
> eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track...
> There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but
> I'm certainly not going to try using one.  The tape is for "pedagogical"
> purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do
> fine.
>   But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm
> glad to give it a try!
>
>   And if we do end up with eight track tape, I'll be sure to add an
> attaboy for anyone else who notices!
>   Thanks!
> /guy
>
>
> On 3/26/2021 4:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> >
> >> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> wow, what format?
> >>   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
> >> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
> >> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no
> >> recognizable coding like ASCII.
> > Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track
> tape.  I thought Whirlwind was one of those.
> >
> >   paul
> >
> >
>
>

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Guy Fedorkow via cctalk

Paul,
  You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with
the same pitch as what became eight-track tape.
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf

  I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an
eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track...
There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but
I'm certainly not going to try using one.  The tape is for "pedagogical"
purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do
fine.
  But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm
glad to give it a try!

  And if we do end up with eight track tape, I'll be sure to add an
attaboy for anyone else who notices!
  Thanks!
/guy

On 3/26/2021 4:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> wow, what format?
>>   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
>> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
>> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no
>> recognizable coding like ASCII.
> Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track tape.  I 
> thought Whirlwind was one of those.
>
>   paul
>
>

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread emanuel stiebler via cctalk

On 2021-03-25 15:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote:
>> Rofl,
>>
>> If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my
>> micropolis 5"25 
> 
> I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for
> that price.

And that's the right thinking ...

Everybody, who has dozens of old hard drives in the basement,
doesn't have to worry about retirement anymore ;-)

Re: punching paper tape

> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote:
>>> wow, what format?
>>>   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
>>> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
>>> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank
>> 
>> Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape.
>> 
>> The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I
>> have would not be period correct, nor the right width.
>> 
>> 
> Is it baudot width?  If so someone in the Greenkeys mailing list can help.
> Or they'd be able to help regardless.  I can print standard 1 inch tapes, I
> have a working Teletype right here in my office.  Because that's what
> normal people have, right?

The most common widths are for 5 ("baudot") and 8 (ascii) tape, which have that 
number of tracks plus a sprocket track on 0.1 inch centers, closely filling the 
available space.  But there is also 6-track tape (for typesetting machines) and 
7 track (for some very old machines) that have paper width to match -- same 
track spacing, different track count.  Those are rarely seen but specs for them 
can be found, I tripped over them not too long ago.

Then for something nice and obscure there is 2-track tape ("Wheatstone") for 
punched Morse code.  Creed and MacElroy (in Littleton, MA) made machines for 
that.

paul

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk

Shirley this thread has run its course already

Re: punching paper tape




> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> wow, what format?
>   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no
> recognizable coding like ASCII.

Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track tape.  I 
thought Whirlwind was one of those.

paul

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread John Foust via cctalk

At 12:41 PM 3/26/2021, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>Q: what does "FURBISH" mean?

M-W says "to make lustrous" and "to give a new look to."

"Refurbish" is "to brighten or freshen up."

At Dell Outlet, for example, I think they call a computer "refurbished" even
if it never left the warehouse - for example if someone custom-ordered
a PC and then failed to pay or take delivery - that's a new computer
but now it's refurbished and for sale as-configured.

- John

Re: punching paper tape

I can punch arbitrary 8 bit data to 8 level tape. Is the MSB always 0? That
is very easy to do, just make sure the binary looks right and as long as
the pitch between bits is the same as 8 level tape you will end up with
holes in the places you would expect.

If you want 7 level tape punched with some custom width between bits, I.E.
not compliant with EIA RS-227, I can not help you :)

-Eric

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 2:31 PM Guy Fedorkow  wrote:

> wow, what format?
>   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no
> recognizable coding like ASCII.
>   Can you suggest what format you'd want?
>
>   Thanks!
> /guy
>
> ps,  You can see some of the work behind this at
> https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/
>
>
>
> On 3/26/2021 3:16 PM, Eric Moore wrote:
>
> I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you.
>
> -Eric
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help
>> out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper
>> tapes?
>> I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> /guy fedorkow
>> fedor...@mit.edu
>>
>>
>

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Bill Degnan via cctalk

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote:
> > wow, what format?
> >The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
> > Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
> > i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank
>
> Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape.
>
> The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I
> have would not be period correct, nor the right width.
>
>
Is it baudot width?  If so someone in the Greenkeys mailing list can help.
Or they'd be able to help regardless.  I can print standard 1 inch tapes, I
have a working Teletype right here in my office.  Because that's what
normal people have, right?
lol

Bill

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk


On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote:

wow, what format?
   The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank


Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape.

The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I
have would not be period correct, nor the right width.

Re: punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Guy Fedorkow via cctalk

wow, what format?
  The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine,
Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary,
i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no
recognizable coding like ASCII.
  Can you suggest what format you'd want?

  Thanks!
/guy

ps,  You can see some of the work behind this at
https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/

On 3/26/2021 3:16 PM, Eric Moore wrote:
> I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you.
>
> -Eric
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>
> Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able
> to help
> out a small historical display project by punching a few short
> paper tapes?
> I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are
> easiest.
>
> Thanks!
> /guy fedorkow
> fedor...@mit.edu 
>

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk

Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price goes 
up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or maybe 
it's French paper ...) :-)


The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such 
as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc., is primarily made of wood pulp; 
however, the paper should be composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent 
linen. This is what gives it its distinct look and feel.  The security 
thread, and portrait or numberal watermarks should be already built into 
the paper when it is received.  A 6mm wide 3-D security ribbon should be 
woven into the paper.  Tilt the note back and forth while focusing on the 
blue ribbon.  You will see the bells change to 100s as they move.  When 
you tilt the note back and forth, the bells and 100s move side to side. 
When you tilt it side to side, they move up and down.


The sheet of paper should be large enough for multiple images, which can 
be cut apart later.

Re: punching paper tape

I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you.

-Eric

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help
> out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper tapes?
> I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest.
>
> Thanks!
> /guy fedorkow
> fedor...@mit.edu
>
>

punching paper tape

2021-03-26 Thread Guy Fedorkow via cctalk

Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help
out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper tapes?
I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest.

Thanks!
/guy fedorkow
fedor...@mit.edu

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Richard Pope via cctalk


Antonio,
Wow! About $30 for one sheet of paper. Is gold woven into it?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 3/26/2021 4:15 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

On 26/03/2021 08:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days 
I am going to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do.


I'm planning to put the lid back on the RZ26, carefully pull back the 
label I had to destroy to get to the hidden screw and then polish the 
top surface of the case. I'll ship in an antistatic bag too, just to 
try to recreate that "BNIB" experience. I'll probably pitch it at 
£1100 for a quick sale.



The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for £1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't 
imagine they sold for that price 


Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price 
goes up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" 
paper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 
(or maybe it's French paper ...) :-)



Antonio

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Richard Pope via cctalk

Ali,
You are probably correct but it was just something that i have done
in the past to get a HDD working by combining two to make one. Just my
two cents. Anyone want to buy a used, I believe it stills works, ANTIQUE
and COLLECTABLE 100MB SCSI 1 HDD for say $1,000,000 OBO?

GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 3/26/2021 10:14 AM, Ali wrote:

Rob,
Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some
of
the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad
interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the
good
cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and
then label the drive as being refurbished?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on
hand delivering the item to the client!

No,

Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things will work
(HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally work). If it works great they just
made enough money to cover their entire inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it
doesn't they are just out the cost of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros.

Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I believe) form a seller in northern
California "refurbished and guaranteed" off of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California
was at $35 for UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S) was ok for me I went ahead. Both drives
arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the drives and tried to keep the S Pretty clever scam
and would work on most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S is
"non-refundable". S was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to have me dispose of their
junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste.

I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that’s
about it.

-Ali

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Ali via cctalk

> "UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out.
> Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it.
> 


Not quite. It generally means we know it is broken/nonworking but  we want
wiggle room when you complain!

-Ali

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk


Q: what does "FURBISH" mean?


On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy N. via cctalk wrote:

According to the OED: 1) Remove the rust from, burnish, polish up (a
sword, armour, etc.); 2) Clean up, renovate, revive, give a new look to
(something dirty, faded, or old).
I think "give a new look to" is what some of these sellers have in mind;
"renovate, revive" maybe not so much. But removing the rust from a hard
disk might not be what buyers expect.


Yep.
Remove all of the unsightly "NFG" graffiti tagging.


So, there's not a lot of difference between FURBISH and RE-FURBISH.


"UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out.
Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it.

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Guy N. via cctalk

On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 10:41 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Q: what does "FURBISH" mean?

According to the OED: 1) Remove the rust from, burnish, polish up (a
sword, armour, etc.); 2) Clean up, renovate, revive, give a new look to
(something dirty, faded, or old).

I think "give a new look to" is what some of these sellers have in mind;
"renovate, revive" maybe not so much. But removing the rust from a hard
disk might not be what buyers expect.

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk


For HDDs, "refurbished" probably means FORMAT'ed.
In the old days, it sometimes meant a LOW-level format.
SSTOR ("Speed-Store") and SPINRITE (Gibson's) "REFURBISHED" drives.

For other things, it probably means plug it in and see if the power 
indicator comes on.


Maybe even wipe it off with a damp rag.
Maybe some isopropanol to scrub off the "NFG" that somebody had written on 
it with a sharpie.



OR, "refurbish" gets the FRY's definition.  Just sell it again.  If it 
comes back, substitute another until the customer gets one that works. 
Put the bad one back on the shelf, and keep selling it until some customer 
doesn't go to the effort of bringing it back.



Q: what does "FURBISH" mean?

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious




> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Ali via cctalk
> Sent: 26 March 2021 15:14
> To: 'Richard Pope' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts' 
> Subject: RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious
> 
> > Rob,
> >  Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some
> > of the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad
> > interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the
> > good cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads
> > and then label the drive as being refurbished?
> > GOD Bless and Thanks,
> > rich!
> > P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on
> > hand delivering the item to the client!
> 
> No,
> 
> Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things
> will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally
> work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire
> inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost
> of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros.
> 
> Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I
> believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off
> of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for
> UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S) was ok for me I went
> ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the
> drives and tried to keep the S Pretty clever scam and would work on
> most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S is "non-
> refundable". S was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to
> have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back
> guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste.
> 
> I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that’s
> about it.
> 
> -Ali

Yes, that is my suspicion that they don't do anything at all, that is why one 
day I am going to take the time to ask them what they do to refurbish them, 
just to see what they say. I seem to remember asking once and not getting a 
reply, hardly surprising!

Regards

Rob

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Ali via cctalk

> Rob,
>  Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some
> of
> the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad
> interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the
> good
> cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and
> then label the drive as being refurbished?
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
> P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on
> hand delivering the item to the client!

No,

Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things 
will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally work). 
If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire inventory 
of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost of the 
shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros.

Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I 
believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off 
of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for 
UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S) was ok for me I went 
ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the 
drives and tried to keep the S Pretty clever scam and would work on most 
people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S is "non-refundable". 
S was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to have me dispose of 
their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee - eBay refunded 
the rest of the money post haste. 

I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that’s 
about it.

-Ali

Re: Logic Analyser Usage Advice

> On Mar 26, 2021, at 5:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a
> problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage
> between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced
> with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly.
> 
> What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being
> read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and
> XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected
> the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to
> clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular
> address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this
> LA).
> 
> When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense,
> because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that
> I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller.
> However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am
> wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow
> clock?
> 
> I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal
> because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising
> edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of
> useless data.

If you have the trigger set to the event you want that wouldn't be a problem; 
the LA would not store anything until the trigger hits.

I have a different ancient logic analyzer, a Philips/Fluke model.  It has 
"state plus timing" capture, meaning that it can capture sequences of clocked 
state changes, time-labeled waveforms, or both simultaneously.  What you're 
doing corresponds to "state" capture, which uses a clock.

If you're capturing with a clock that means the LA captures the inputs at each 
specified clock edge -- in your case, rising edge of either of those two 
signals.  (Does it really have two clocks and defines that it captures on a 
clock event from either of them?)  That would mean you see ONLY the points in 
time when that edge occurs.

If you have a bus transaction that begins with a rising XIOR or XIOW, and then 
some other things happen -- like an address or data transfer perhaps 
accompanied by some control signal -- then what you're doing won't work because 
you won't be capturing those later points in time, since they don't occur at an 
XIOR/W edge.  What you need instead is either to specify a constantly running 
bus clock as your clock, or capture in timing mode (every N nanoseconds) if the 
LA has such a mode.  You would then specify a trigger along the lines of: wait 
for edge on XIOR or XIOW, then look for address in the range x to y.  If the 
address is on the bus at that edge this is easy: "(rising XIOR or rising XIOW) 
and (addr >= x and addr <= y)".  If the address occurs later, you'd have to 
specify something along the lines of "edge then address match within z 
nanoseconds" to describe an address match occurring within that same bus cycle. 
 Or if the address is accompanied by an address strobe it would be "edge then 
within z nanoseconds (address strobe and address in range)".  Depending on your 
LA trigger machinery you may be pushing the limits of what it can do.  If all 
else fails you might need to concoct some external circuit to implement part of 
the trigger condition, and hook the output from that helper circuit to another 
LA pin as one of the trigger terms.

paul

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk


On 3/26/21 4:44 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:

Rob,
     Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some of 
the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad 
interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the good 
cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and 
then label the drive as being refurbished?

GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on 
hand delivering the item to the client!


I have brand new, in the static bag RZ28's in the hot swap case
(don't know what it is actually called) that I have offered to
sell in the past.  Never had an offer over $10.  It ain't worth
the time, gas and effort of taking them to the PO for that.

bill

RE: Logic Analyser Usage Advice




> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Paul Berger via
> cctalk
> Sent: 26 March 2021 11:54
> To: Rob Jarratt via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Usage Advice
> 
> 
> On 2021-03-26 6:08 a.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug
> > a problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think
> > damage between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very
> > experienced with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly.
> >
> >
> >
> > What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being
> > read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR
> > and
> > XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have
> > connected the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and
> > set the LA to clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to
> > trigger on a particular address range (in the State Trace screen if
> > anyone is familiar with this LA).
> >
> >
> >
> > When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes
> > sense, because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock
> > inputs so that I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral
> controller.
> > However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I
> > am wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the
> > slow clock?
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock
> > signal because I won't be able to capture the address and data values
> > on the rising edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with
> > traces full of useless data.
> >
> >
> >
> > Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> I think you are the right track, If you wish to only capture register accesses
> you may want to qualify on the -ACK signal as the datasheet says it must be
> high for register access.  I would also clock on the rising edge  of the -XIOR
> and -XIOW signals as the data sheet seems to indicate that data is not valid
> on the falling edge.

Yes, I am using the -ACK signal too as part of the address and clocking on the 
rising edge of -XIOR and -XIOW. I wonder if the logic analyser itself might be 
faulty because I have set it to trigger on -ACK=1 and XA0-9=08X(hexadecimal, 
X=don't care), but I get XA values that do not match the trigger. I am 
wondering if it is problem with sampling too late after the rising edge maybe?

Regards

Rob

Re: Logic Analyser Usage Advice

2021-03-26 Thread Paul Berger via cctalk




On 2021-03-26 6:08 a.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a
problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage
between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced
with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly.

  


What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being
read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and
XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected
the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to
clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular
address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this
LA).

  


When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense,
because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that
I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller.
However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am
wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow
clock?

  


I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal
because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising
edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of
useless data.

  


Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here?

  


Thanks

  


Rob

I think you are the right track, If you wish to only capture register 
accesses you may want to qualify on the -ACK signal as the datasheet 
says it must be high for register access.  I would also clock on the 
rising edge  of the -XIOR and -XIOW signals as the data sheet seems to 
indicate that data is not valid on the falling edge.


Paul.

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Antonio Carlini via cctalk


On 26/03/2021 10:30, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

On 26/03/2021 09:15, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or 
maybe it's French paper ...) :-)


Possibly a test post to check how the system works.  Years ago, eBay 
had a "test" category, for "items not for sale" or some such 
description. Anyone remember the "air guitar" that sold for something 
like $500?


Well looking at his other items, there are several similar posts. Also 
(to veer back towards being on-topic) a DCL User's Guide.


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk


On 26/03/2021 09:15, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or 
maybe it's French paper ...) :-)


Possibly a test post to check how the system works.  Years ago, eBay had 
a "test" category, for "items not for sale" or some such description. 
Anyone remember the "air guitar" that sold for something like $500?


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Antonio Carlini via cctalk


On 26/03/2021 08:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days I am going 
to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do.


I'm planning to put the lid back on the RZ26, carefully pull back the 
label I had to destroy to get to the hidden screw and then polish the 
top surface of the case. I'll ship in an antistatic bag too, just to try 
to recreate that "BNIB" experience. I'll probably pitch it at £1100 for 
a quick sale.




The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for £1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't imagine 
they sold for that price 


Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price 
goes up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or 
maybe it's French paper ...) :-)



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Antonio Carlini via cctalk


On 26/03/2021 08:24, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
Assuming anything gets shipped at all. Perhaps they don't want to take 
money

from anybody too local who might cause them some grief.
Well eBay will want the seller to make a refund if the buyer complains, 
and location doesn't make any difference there. In fact it would make 
return postage more expensive (at the seller's expense). For a drive of 
this quality, as a seller, you'd celarly want it back if the transaction 
went pear-shaped :-)

I note they ask £260.00 for "Economy Delivery (Economy Int'l Postage)" to
the Netherlands "between Wed. 31 Mar. and Fri. 16 Apr". That's quite the
markup on a bit of bubblewrap, a Jiffy bag, and a €7 stamp.

I think I'd want a tiny bit more wrapping for a hard drive than just a 
bit of bubblewrap. I know SCAN and eBuyer do just bubblewrap them, wrap 
a mailer around them and send them off, but when I sold drives on eBay I 
always sent them out in a foam-padded box with a cut-out. Then again I 
had access to those for nothing and I wasn't sending out hundreds a day.



I do have some RD5x drives and I'd probably want to shift the excess 
(assuming there is any excess after I get around to testing them!) but 
I'd be really reluctant to ship those at all. I have no idea how much 
shock-proofing they would need to withstand the 1.5m drop that the 
parcel carriers all quote!



Antonio



--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Logic Analyser Usage Advice

I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a
problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage
between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced
with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly.

 

What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being
read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and
XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected
the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to
clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular
address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this
LA).

 

When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense,
because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that
I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller.
However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am
wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow
clock?

 

I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal
because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising
edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of
useless data.

 

Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk

You can see the history if you click "see all revisions" you can see it has
been there since at least December 2015 so five, going on six..

Dave
G4UGM

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 26 March 2021 01:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious
> 
> On 2021-Mar-25, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> > Well, if there is no cost to asking that amount, why not? It's an
inefficiency
> of Ebay that things can stay up there for years, but that is as it is.
> 
> It's been enough years I don't remember when I first saw it, this has been
> listed for 4-5 years or more:
>   https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-
> 620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-620-L100/311466122329

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

2021-03-26 Thread Richard Pope via cctalk


Rob,
Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some of 
the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad 
interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the good 
cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and 
then label the drive as being refurbished?

GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on 
hand delivering the item to the client!

rich!

On 3/26/2021 3:36 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days I am going to 
ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do. The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for 
£1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't imagine they sold for that price 


-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Christian Corti
via cctalk
Sent: 26 March 2021 08:02
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy Dunphy wrote:

At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -, you wrote:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213

Seller is German. Of course they are serious.
The real question is whether they are sane.

The better questions are:
Why is the price marked in GBP and why doesn't he ship to Germany?
(This is what Ebay Germany tells me!)
So I absolutely agree with Ali concerning stock non-availability and the seller
just being a broker.

Christian

RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious