[cctalk] Re: The CMoaA is OK

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Sep 15, 2024, at 10:10 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Computer Museum of America Acquires Collection from Living Computers Museum
> and Estate of Paul G. Allen - Computer Museum of America %
> 

Hopefully this means that they get the “paper assets”, and are willing to scan 
them.  There is stuff that regrettably went to LCM, that should have been 
scanned.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Pick system in Manitoba looking for a new home

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On 7/24/24 10:47, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> Would anyone like to rescue a vintage Pick minicomputer in Manitoba, Canada?
>> 
>> https://discuss.systems/@ahelwer/112836345012817998
>> 
>> «
>> A wide ask here so please boost: my grandfather is trying to get rid of an 
>> old business computer, and I was wondering whether any vintage computer 
>> people might want it. It was purchased for $50k from The Ultimate 
>> Corporation in the early 80s. This ran the Pick operating system, and my 
>> best guess is the hardware was originally manufactured by GE or Honeywell. 
>> It's about the size of a half-rack and currently lives in Brandon, Manitoba, 
>> Canada. It has sat covered in plastic in a chemical warehouse for the past 
>> 35 years. Where do people usually post stuff like this other than here? 
>> Thanks!
>> »
>> 
> The card cage has a VERY strong DEC look to it - probably LSI-11.
> 
> Jon

One of the comments identified it as having a PDP-11/02 CPU.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: SMECC museum status

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 26, 2024, at 2:23 PM, John Herron via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> While we're on the topic of the fate of collections and museums, does
> anyone know if SMECC (Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and
> Computation) is ok? I'm unaware if there was staff outside of Ed Sharpe
> (who respectfully rests in piece).

I did a double-take on this, and checked the mailing list.  I’d missed the word 
that he’d passed away on June 1st.  He will be missed.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Windows, Was Re: Re: First Personal Computer

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 31, 2024, at 9:29 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Can we do the "Which version of Windows is 'Classic' now?" flame war next?
> 
> Pleeeze?
> 
> 
> Doc

I’m rather partial to “Bow Windows”, I feel they have a rather classic look.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Borland Turbo C++ and Turbo Basic - Books and Manuals

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I suspect that at least the Turbo BASIC and TASM manuals should be saved.  The 
only Turbo BASIC that I ever saw in the 80’s is the copy that I bought.

I’m not sure how useful the OpenVMS book is, but it is also somewhat uncommon.  
I recently got a copy with some other books that I bought.

Zane 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 6, 2024, at 3:11 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Before I consign the following books to be recycled I thought I would ask if 
> they are any use to anyone.
> I do not want anything for them except postage, but they are heavy so might 
> be expensive to post from the UK.
> (These are the manuals only no software)
> 
> Manuals
> Borland C++ V4 for Windows - Programmers Guide, User Guide, Library Ref, 
> Debugger, DOS Ref, Library Ref
> Borland C++V2 Object Windows - Reference Guide, Programmers Guide
> Turbo C++ V3 Object Windows - User Guide, Reference Guide
> Turbo C++ V3 User Guide
> Turbo C++ - Library Ref, Getting Started, Programmers Guide, User Guide
> Resource Workshop
> Turbo Assembler V2 (5 books in set)
> Turbo Basic
> 
> Books
> The Waite Group Turbo C Bible
> Developing C++ Software
> 
> Additional
> I would like £5 beer money for this one please!
> Writing Open VMS Alpha Device Drivers in C - Margie Sherlock/Leonard Szubowicz
> 
> 
> Regards Mike Norris

[cctalk] Re: Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 4, 2024, at 12:46 PM, Sellam Abraham  wrote:
> 
> The mystery deepens.
> 
> I was in touch with John Lawson up until around 2013-2014 when he stopped 
> responding to my calls/texts/emails (which could have been for several 
> reasons).
> 
> I only thought of Joe recently out of the blue and thought I'd see if he was 
> still around.  Jay West (in the ClassicCmp Discord server) said he was 
> friends with Joe and hosted his website and used to communicate with him 
> regularly but then stopped hearing from him at some point, and as of 5 years 
> ago he and others made a concerted effort to locate him to no avail.
> 
> So this is a last ditch effort on my own part to find them before I figure 
> it's time for eulogies.
> 
> Sellam 

Have you checked with Eric Smith or Dave McGuire?  I want to say that Dave was 
in the same general area as Joe when he lived in Florida.

Other people I’d love to know how their doing would be James Willing, Allison 
Parent, and Megan Gentry.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Apr 3, 2024, at 5:48 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Has anyone communicated with or know a way to communicate with Joe Rigdon
> out of Florida?  Most here should know him as an old-school ClassicCmp
> veteran.
> 
> If anyone has any information at all on the whereabouts of Joe Rigdon, and
> for that matter John Lawson, please either reply here or to me privately as
> appropriate.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Sellam


According to the archives I have on my computer, John Lawson announced here on 
June 15th, 2005 that he was leaving the hobby.

It looks like Joe was last on the list in November 2006, at that time he was 
still using the rr.com email address.

Sadly I don’t know how to reach either of them.  Eric Smith apparently had 
Joe’s phone number in 2011, I don’t know if he spoke to him at that time.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 4, 2024, at 8:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>  7 - 230M Carts  (one labeled RSTS V10)

Is the RSTS/E disk something that needs to be preserved?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 23, 2024, at 9:42 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 23/03/2024 15:56, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote
>> You have to look at sold listings to get an idea of what they are actually
>> selling for.  There are many, shall we say, overly ambitious sellers when
>> it comes to vintage hardware.
>> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?kw=210ts+transciever&toolid=20004&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
>> 
>> Looks like $20 is about the going rate.
>> 
>> -Henry
> 
> 
> The first hit on ebay.co.uk is £399, so I sense an arbitrage opportunity :-) 
> It may take a while to sell, but I'm patient !

You just need one impatient buyer.  Normally I’m a patient buyer, some stuff 
I’ve spent years watching for.  OTOH, that also means I miss out on a few items 
when the seller doesn’t drop the price, and they’re the only seller.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: How to shutdown RT11?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 21, 2024, at 6:19 PM, W2HX via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> I just got a pdp-11 to boot and it seems to have rt-11 installed.  How do I 
> do an orderly shutdown? Google has info on simh but this ain't that.
> 
> Thanks!
> 73 Eugene w2hx

In this respect it’s similar to many personal computer OS’s of the time frame, 
in that you can simply turn it off.  It’s a fantastic OS in its simplicity, and 
a great way to learn about the PDP-11.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Did something happen to comp.os.vms ?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 9, 2024, at 2:19 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> Did something happen to comp.os.vms and/or usenet?  All the DEC
>> newsgroups appear to be missing from Eternal September.
> 
> There has been a huge flood of spam originating from google, in various
> newsgroups, for a few months.  I saw 15,000 one day in comp.os.vms
> alone.  This problem has prompted google to drop usenet support from
> Groups, which happened late last month.  (The existing posts are still
> accessible, they claim.)  Many are largely happy about this change. ;)

I noticed that things after that time are a lot cleaner on c.o.v., I think 
having a barrier to entry is a good thing, and will hopefully cut back on the 
spam.

> It's possible this is related to your issue, though I see that someone
> else managed to subscribe to c.o.v. on Eternal September, so perhaps
> not.

The issue was how I started ’tin’.

> Sadly, a lot of c.o.v. regulars were using ggroups to post.  Hopefully
> they take advantage of one of the alternatives.

That’s unfortunate.  I switched to Eternal-September a few years ago, though I 
haven’t been really active on c.o.v. for years.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Did something happen to comp.os.vms ?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 9, 2024, at 1:16 PM, Stuff Received via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2024-03-09 14:50, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> Did something happen to comp.os.vms and/or usenet?  All the DEC newsgroups 
>> appear to be missing from Eternal September.
>> Zane
> 
> I just subscribed to comp.os.vms on Eternal-September without issue. All 
> seems well.
> 
> S.

Thanks!  The error was on my end, I started up ‘tin’ wrong.  I was just able to 
access comp.os.vms on Eternal-September, and it looks like the rest of the DEC 
groups are there.

Zane

[cctalk] Did something happen to comp.os.vms ?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Did something happen to comp.os.vms and/or usenet?  All the DEC newsgroups 
appear to be missing from Eternal September.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I bought it when my first ship was in Bahrain, but never did anything with it.  
I think I still have the manuals, but am not sure about the floppies.  Maybe 
something for when I retire.

Zane 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:36 PM, Just Kant via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone used it or something contemporaneous?
> Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to AI/machine 
> learning tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create a game, probably 
> not chess, lilely something simpler. The old expert system modeling paradigm 
> seems to have largely if not entirely fallen out of favor. From what I'm 
> reading though TP seems to be geared for that.

[cctalk] Re: IBM 38 on Facebook Marketplace

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Really the only thing I can identify in those photographs is some version of an 
IBM 3776 terminal.  It’s in Morristown, NJ.  The computer itself is probably an 
AS/400 that was originally purchased to replace a System/38 (at least that’s 
the only way I see “IBM 38” making any sense).

I think that this is an AS/400e 9406 Model 170 Server, from about 1998.

Zane




> On Jan 24, 2024, at 11:57 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> I know nothing of what they're referring to, but just in case someone is
> interested:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1033559851065048
> 
> 
> --
> Anders Nelson
> www.andersknelson.com

[cctalk] Re: Anyone have a D1 deck?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Dec 31, 2023, at 1:42 PM, The Doctor via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Saturday, December 30th, 2023 at 23:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> The Bosch unit may be very difficult to find. Will a Sony
>> DVR-1000/2000/2100 do the same job for those tapes? At least a few of
>> those seem to be around.
> 
> None of us are sure.  The Sony DVR units have been pretty easy to find but
> the possibility of messing up any of the tapes even as a test ties everything
> in a knot.  I know a few folks are asking around the A/V offices of a couple
> of colleges to see if they have any suitable playback units but so far nothing
> yet (due to semester break).
> 
> The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
> WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
> Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.

If there is money to fund this effort, it might be worth talking to Iron 
Mountain, to see if they can handle the media.  They have people that do this 
sort of thing, AND, I know for a fact they have hardware to handle some strange 
formats.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Current SOA scsi disk emulators for DEC

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 3, 2023, at 8:27 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> That is my question.
> 
> I have used a couple of versions of the SCSI2SD boards in the past with 
> Viking, Emulex QC07, DEC RQXZ1 controllers in the past, and also direct 
> connections to MicroVax SCSI buss's.
> 
> There are other manufacturers of these SD to SCSI emulators now. What is the 
> current SOA?  What works, what doesn't work with DEC hardware?
> 
> Doug

In 2021, one of the projects during my Sabbatical was to work over my 
VAXstation 4000’s.  As part of this, I bought some SCSI2SD boards, and got one 
working in my VAXstation 4000/90.  I planned to do the same with the VAXstation 
4000/60 I have in a rack, but it’s still running off of a rack mount BA350, and 
a couple old SCSI drives.  I should probably look into what it would take to 
put a SCSI2SD board in a SBB.

I need to find time to work on my PDP-11/23+ and PDP-11/73, as I’m sure I need 
to replace the caps in the Powersupplies, so I haven’t tried to drive a SCSI2SD 
board with a Viking QDT.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via
>> cctalk  wrote:
>>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many 
>>> decades. We had one until recently.
>>> https://www.vax.com.au/
>> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html
> 
> 
> "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!"   :-)
> 
> 
> bill
> 
> 

I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting on top 
of the Keyboard I’m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extended II Keyboard 
via USB converter), it says “Loyal to VAX”.

I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7.  It was shutdown recently, but 
only due to high temps, and it’s back online now.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Death of Mitnick

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

A quick google turned this up.

https://www.securityweek.com/famed-hacker-kevin-mitnick-dead-at-59/

Zane




> On Jul 19, 2023, at 7:55 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> what's your source for this?
> 
> On 7/19/23 7:35 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
>> Maybe this note is off topic but I don't think so: The death of Kevin
>> Mitnick. His book "Ghost in the Wire" is a classic. Too bad he was a
>> criminal!
>> 
>> Murray 🙂
> 

[cctalk] Re: Did Bill Gates Really Say That?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 14, 2023, at 10:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Well, I don't know about the 640KB quote, but he did say that OS/2 (what
> was to become Warp 3) had Microsoft's full commitment.  (cf "The OS/2
> handbook").  At the time he said it, MS was already developing NT and
> had not the slightest intention of honoring that statement.
> 
> What I also remember is this:
> 
> For the developers who paid for the advance copy of the "new OS/2"
> (about $3000, IIRC), MS sent out copies of NT 3.1.  Under threat of
> lawsuit, they relented and refunded the advance payments.
> 
> --Chuck

When shipped, Visual Basic v1 stated that it was for Windows and OS/2.  I 
purchased it due to this.  They only included the Windows version. 

By the time MS released Windows 95, I had a system running Lotus SmartSuite for 
OS/2, which by then was owned by IBM.  Lotus SmartSuite was so buggy that I saw 
the writing on the wall, and bought my first Mac, a PowerBook 520c.  I’m typing 
this email on a Mac.  If MS had delivered an OS/2 version of Visual Basic, 
there is a good chance I’d be typing this on Windows.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m not sure what you’re referring to.  Prior to Paul Allen’s death, I was 
mostly happy with LCM.  There is one box that I *REALLY* wish I hadn’t donated 
to LCM.

Zane



> On Apr 25, 2023, at 8:17 AM, ED SHARPE  wrote:
> 
> But Zane you seemed disenchanted with museums even before LCM closed...  
> apparently you wee not happy with LCM?  Fill us in?
> 
> Sent from AOL on Android 
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 8:11 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk
>  wrote:
> On Apr 24, 2023, at 11:16 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  <mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> > 
> > Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> > firesale of the assets.
> > Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> > included.
> 
> I’m already unhappy, and wishing I’d not donated to the museum.
> 
> 
> Zane

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Apr 24, 2023, at 11:16 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.

I’m already unhappy, and wishing I’d not donated to the museum.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Apr 24, 2023, at 3:18 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On 24/04/2023 06:45, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
>> Bad link  Zane I get a weird  screen from the timeEd#
> 
> Delete the strange character after the last "/" and it will work:
> 
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/
> 
> -- 
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull

Thanks!  I’m going to blame that on the latest MacOS version, as I’d tested 
that link. :-(

Zane

[cctalk] One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

It looks like his air museum was acquired by one of the Walmart heirs.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/
After 3 years, Flying Heritage Museum to reopen in Everett
seattletimes.com

I wonder if something like this will happen with the computer museum.  

Question, were Paul Allen’s museums non-profits?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Mail veracity signing

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

That was rather my thought, it made it through.

Zane




> On Apr 20, 2023, at 5:38 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Your note got through, that's a promising start.  Let's hope this change 
> helps.
> 
>   paul
> 
>> On Apr 20, 2023, at 8:32 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Folks,
>> 
>> A heads up that I've turned on some mail veracity signing functionality
>> in Mailman.  One could hope it would just work, and that I made no
>> mistakes in the configuration, but... :)
>> 
>> I'm working on this to try to improve deliverability of list traffic.
>> 
>> De
> 

[cctalk] Re: LS120, LS240, Floptical Drives and DD, HD, ED, and ?TD? drives

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 27, 2023, at 7:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> LS120's were the most unreliable format I ever used.  Disks were frequently
> 
> unreadable mere weeks after making them and the drives were so touchy
> 
> even a slight bump was enough to make them unusable.  I still have one
> 
> or two of the drives and a handful of disks around here somewhere but I would
> 
> never consider trying to use them again.

Worse than a Zip disk?!?!

Zane

[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:55 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> The term "minicomputer" was marketing speak:  The first computer to receive 
> the
> appellation was the PDP-8/e, which was the third generation of the PDP-8 
> family
> (where the PDP-5 is "generation zero").  The first generation PDP-8 fit into
> the back of a VW convertible (a famous marketing photo); the third would fit 
> on
> the passenger side front seat.  It came out at a time when the miniskirt was 
> in
> full bloom, and everything in the marketing world was "Mini! Mini! 
> Mini!"--even
> when it wasn’t.

The first time I saw a PDP-8 was in the Museum of American History in 
Washington DC in 1990.  Along with a straight-8, they had that marketing photo.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: mainframe vs mini

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 1:51 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Not to open a huge can of worms but...
> 
> I always considered a mainframe to basically be a "fully decked out"
> minicomputer.
> 
> A minicomputer has a core CPU and memory (or racks of memory), then is
> "decked out" with data storage (racks of wall-sized tape decks), printers,
> pick-your-typewriter input (or two, or three), and maybe cabinets for
> serial IO or modem of some sort.
> 
> So, sometimes I say mainframe when I really mean minicomputer (generally
> because mainframe just sounds cooler than "mini-computer" -- that is,
> mainframe clearly conveys the notion of "some big ass computer" whereas
> minicomputer just needs more clarification).
> 
> 
> What do you guys think?   Or is a mainframe one of those giants so large,
> you walk inside its CPU?
> 
> Or, is it like this...
> 
> computer  (a whole building, generally at least two story to support ac
> ducting and raised floor maintenance -- are these exclusively mainframes?)
> 
> minicomputer(a single floor or room of a building or possibly a full
> top of a desk - and, these are NOT mainframes?)
> 
> microcomputer   (half a deck top or smaller, memory and accessories mostly
> self contained - doesn't necessarily have to have a microprocessor, but
> typically does)
> 
> nanocomputer   (modern MCU ? like Raspbery Pi)
> 
> 
> Also - on "personal computer", it's generally implied "digital electronic
> computers" so we don't have to dwell too much on rocks and beads as
> computers.  Glad we didn't call them "coordinated electron pumpers" :)
> 
> 
> 
> -Steve

Oh, this is a definite can of worms.

Looking back to the 80’s and early 90’s, when this was a little more cut and 
dried.

Computer - Any Computer, no matter the class

Microcomputer - Desktop or Laptop, single user

Minicomputer - Multi-User, either interactive and/or batch

Mainframe - It’s all about the I/O!!!  That includes being Multi-User, 
typically both interactive and batch.  These days a Mainframe itself might take 
up a lot less space, but things like disk and tape are likely to still take up 
a fair amount of space.

Supercomputer - Number Cruncher

Zane

[cctalk] VAXstation II GPX on ePay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I wouldn’t normally post anything on eBay, but this looks like something 
someone should grab.  I’ve no clue who the seller is, it’s in Massachusetts. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295558572706
DEC Digital Equipment Corp VaxStation II GPX system with boards & T K70 untested
ebay.com

It is currently at $300.  It could also be converted to a PDP-11 with the right 
boards.  My PDP-11/73 started life as a MicroVAX II, and the BA123 is a great 
chassis.  Of course it’s big and heavy.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 8:44 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> A good resource for data on issues like this is the scans of old computer
> magazines or catalogs in either Google Books or the Internet Archive.
> 
> Sellam

Good idea, just need to get my google-fu working right. :-)

I’ve also had to use a Law Magazine, and City Council transcripts in this 
project, to put the timeline together.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I’ve worked on tape articles in Wikipedia and they are for the most part 
> pretty good.  If u find any errors or omissions I hope u will update
> 
> If you are willing and able to share I’d like to see yr results
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Tom

I can’t actually share the project I’m working on.  Overall Wikipedia has been 
an excellent resource for this, even for a couple 8mm formats I was unaware of.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that DLT III XT media is apparently from 
1995, while DLT IV media is from 1994?!?  I’m not sure about that, and I was 
sure DLT IV wasn’t that old, but it might be.  It’s also possible that there 
are some problems with the DLT page on Wikipedia, since the age of the drives 
is given, not the media.

The one that’s really hurt my brain is DC 600A, DC 1000, and DC 2000.  Using 
https://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html and other info at https://www.qic.org/ 
I’m fairly confused.

As best as I can tell:
DC 600A = 1983
DC 1000 = 1994
DC 2000 = 1991

The problem I have is that with what I’m working on, I have indications of DC 
1000 being used in 1985.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I think it remarkable in retrospect that the original Star Trek (ca.
> 1966) used countless mentions of "computer tapes" in the 23rd century.
> 
> A lack of foresight on the part of the script writers?
> 
> What can we predict for the year 2250?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Tape is dead, Long live tape!

Every time someone proclaims that tape is dead, I laugh.  How many here realize 
that there is now Tape-based Object Storage?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 8, 2023, at 8:31 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 3/7/23 22:34, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> I’ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange.  Basically I’m 
>> trying to use the date that various media types were first introduced to 
>> show the oldest possible date for a bunch of media I’m trying to date.  The 
>> 9-Track tapes have been inventoried as “700 6250 BPI”, and I know they’re 
>> the smaller reels.  Doing some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date 
>> back at least as far as 1971 with the IBM 3400 series drives, I’d thought 
>> that 6250 came about in the 80’s.
> 
> Wow!  I'd love to see the 1971 vintage GCR tape controller, it must have been 
> the size of a 360 CPU!  We had a GCR controller from Storage Tech. in 1982 or 
> so that was the same size as a PDP 11/44 large cabinet.  CDC Keystone drives 
> (92185) had it integrated into the 680x controller micro, which I thought was 
> pretty amazing.
> 
> Jon
> 

https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3420.html

It turns out that it was the 3420 models 2, 4, and 6 that were announced in 
March 1973 that supported 6250.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 7, 2023, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I'm a bit puzzled by "6250 700'" because the reel size has no bearing on the 
> format.  10 inch reels (1200 feet) were by far the most common but 
> occasionallly the smaller 600 foot ones would be seen. and in rare cases (the 
> infamous DEC TS05 comes to mind) 600' was all that they could handle.

I’ll be the first to admit my question is a bit strange.  Basically I’m trying 
to use the date that various media types were first introduced to show the 
oldest possible date for a bunch of media I’m trying to date.  The 9-Track 
tapes have been inventoried as “700 6250 BPI”, and I know they’re the smaller 
reels.  Doing some digging, it looks like 6250BPI tapes date back at least as 
far as 1971 with the IBM 3400 series drives, I’d thought that 6250 came about 
in the 80’s.

Zane

[cctalk] Age of Tape Formats?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m working on a project, and I need to know the age of various tape formats.  
For example when were 6250bpi 700’ 9-Track tapes or DC600A cartridges 
introduced?  Is there any good resource online that documents this?  Wikipedia 
is of some help, but the older you go, the spottier it is.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: CTS-300 / DIBOL for RT-11 V5.x - Any source or downloads please?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 4, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Robin Downs via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Hi all and thank you for reading
> 
> I am trying to get my rebuilt PDP-11/23 running and able to compile and run 
> DIBOL code...
> 
> I have RT11 up and working again, but cannot find a complete set of CTS-300 
> files, with the DIBOL compiler
> 
> FYI, I'm in the UK - and help greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin

I’ve not seen any, but would love to be proven wrong.

[cctalk] Re: Matrox Q bus graphics card, any use

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I think that drivers should exist for RSX-11M+.  I’m unaware of anything 
available online.  I should have a RSX-11M pack with graphics drivers, but for 
a different card, not Matrox.

Zane



> On Feb 16, 2023, at 4:54 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Going through my stuff I found a Matrox QRGB 6/64-4 card which seems to be a 
> 512x512x16 color video array for Q bus systems.
> 
> Did any software ever support this thing, and does anyone want to trade it 
> for a bean of some sort?
> 
> Thanks!
> Chris

[cctalk] Re: Store with "vintage" computers and parts

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Feb 9, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 11:28 AM Angel M Alganza via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 2023-02-09 15:31, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> If in doubt, GOOGLE THE WEBSITE, and see if valid websites link to it,
>>> if
>> [...]
>>> Stay safe out there :)
>> 
>> In my opinion, one of the first things to do to try to stay safe out
>> there, if not the first, is to stop using that website and use one that
>> doesn't track what you search, that doesn't show you different results
>> to what it shows to other people who do the same search, and that
>> doesn't treat you as its product.
>> 
> 
> 100% agreed.
> 
> That being said, all search engines are more or less broken today, due to a
> number of factors.  It's like we're back in 1996.  Except worse.
> 
> Sellam

That’s an interesting observation Sellam, and I have to agree.  In thinking 
about it, I was able to find stuff on the Internet easier in 1995 than I seem 
to be able to now.  I mostly avoid Google like the plague now, but I decided to 
use it today to look for a very specific term, it still spews nonsense.

Zane

[cctalk] SDF had put a PDP-10 on the Internet

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Specifically it looks like a SC-40.

https://twitter.com/sdf_pubnix/status/1623127551542702080 


Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] RQDX3's: Lessons learned.

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’d just like to say that 25 years ago, RD53’s were *EVIL*.  I do have one that 
I should try taking apart.  I failed to back it up the first time I powered it 
on.  It didn’t boot the second time.

ESDI or SCSI is the way to go, at least that was true 20-25 years ago.  Today 
I’d be inclined to say SCSI is the way to go.

Zane



> On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:48 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Some thoughts on this day of working on MFM drives:
> 
> 1) MFM drives are just going bad. They were always kind of meh in terms of 
> reliability, but I think even since 2019 (the last time I checked these 
> drives) things have gotten worse. Drives which were readable and good then 
> are now either shot or throwing errors and they have had an easy 3+ years in 
> my upstairs room.
> 
> 2) There are at least two RQDX3 ROM sets. The earlier one does not support 
> the RX33 floppy and doesn't give any info during formatting. The later 
> version (Version 4) does support the RX33 and is a lot nicer.
> 
> 3) Seagate drives seem to be pretty good, especially the 20mb ones. They have 
> no problems, work well, and are pretty right-sized for an RT11 system.
> 
> 4) RD53 drives are weird. Their main failure is the drive head positioner 
> just gets stuck and needs to be worked loose. Unfortunately that requires 
> removing the lid. Fortunately there is a good filter in the drive along with 
> an air handler that runs air from inside the drive body through the filter, 
> then into the spindle where it is blown over the heads. Result is a pretty 
> clean drive on the inside and so far opening the lid doesn't seem to be a 
> recipe for instant destruction. Go figure.
> 
> I may try an RD53 in one of my Pro/380's. It's about time I loaded up the 
> final version of P/OS, as I can use the Gotek floppy to load everything 
> instead of screwing with the RX50's. Or can I do that and switch disks on the 
> fly with a single Gotek... Hm.
> 
> 5) For anything bigger, it's time to retire the MFM drives. Unlike RL02's 
> these things just were not that reliable when new and at this point are kind 
> of falling apart. I have not had any trouble with the ESDI disks, but it 
> might just be a matter of time. Perhaps I should look into duplexing my 330mb 
> CDC drive in the 11/84
> 
> CZ

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: PKBACK Floppies?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Feb 1, 2023, at 11:59 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 11:45 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> So far I’ve tackled one split zip.  I wasn’t having any luck with
>>> the version of PKZIP that I assume created this.  I copied the files
>>> into a directory, and did COPY
>>> FILE1.ZIP+FILE2.ZIP+FILE3.ZIP+FILE4.ZIP+FILE5.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP
>> 
>> THAT will give you a corrupted file!
>> 
>> Concatenated copy (COPY with '+') has a behavior that you need to take
>> into account.
>> 
>> PC/MS-DOS 1.00 kept track of the file size with a course granularity.
>> (logical sectors, not bytes)
>> Therefore, PC/MS-DOS supported CTRL-Z as an end of file character!
>> (A legacy of CP/M)
>> 
>> When you cop a file, it copies the whole thing.  Any extraneous content
>> after EOF won't matter.
>> 
>> BUT!  When you concatenate files,
>> COPY FILE1.ZIP + FILE2.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP
>> COPY will terminate FILE1.ZIP at the first CTRL-Z that it encounters!
>> When copying text files, Concatenated COPY will trim off all content after
>> EOF!
>> It is called "text mode".
>> 
>> You need to change your command to
>> COPY /B  FILE1.ZIP+FILE2.ZIP+FILE3.ZIP+FILE4.ZIP+FILE5.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP
>> to get "binary mode", so that it will copy ALL of each file, rather than
>> just to the "end of file character" of each!
>> 
>> Compare the final resulting file size of  COPY and COPY /B
>> 
>> --
>> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> 
> 
> Excellent knowledge transfer, Fred.  That is what makes this list great.
> 
> Sellam

You have that right Sellam, the more that I look into this, based on Fred’s 
info, I think that I need to get MS-DOS running under DOSBOX-X.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: PKBACK Floppies?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Feb 1, 2023, at 11:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> So far I’ve tackled one split zip.  I wasn’t having any luck with the 
>> version of PKZIP that I assume created this.  I copied the files into a 
>> directory, and did COPY FILE1.ZIP+FILE2.ZIP+FILE3.ZIP+FILE4.ZIP+FILE5.ZIP 
>> COMBINED.ZIP
> 
> THAT will give you a corrupted file!
> 
> Concatenated copy (COPY with '+') has a behavior that you need to take into 
> account.
> 
> PC/MS-DOS 1.00 kept track of the file size with a course granularity. 
> (logical sectors, not bytes) Therefore, PC/MS-DOS supported CTRL-Z as an end 
> of file character!
> (A legacy of CP/M)
> 
> When you cop a file, it copies the whole thing.  Any extraneous content after 
> EOF won't matter.
> 
> BUT!  When you concatenate files,
> COPY FILE1.ZIP + FILE2.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP
> COPY will terminate FILE1.ZIP at the first CTRL-Z that it encounters!
> When copying text files, Concatenated COPY will trim off all content after 
> EOF!
> It is called "text mode".
> 
> You need to change your command to
> COPY /B  FILE1.ZIP+FILE2.ZIP+FILE3.ZIP+FILE4.ZIP+FILE5.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP
> to get "binary mode", so that it will copy ALL of each file, rather than just 
> to the "end of file character" of each!
> 
> Compare the final resulting file size of  COPY and COPY /B
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred   ci...@xenosoft.com

I’m running the version of DOS that comes with DOSBOX-X (I think it’s 
FreeDOS?).  Checking COPY, and I’m not sure it supports /B, but it also doesn’t 
complain, the resulting combined ZIP is the same in both cases.  Turns out that 
I have three corrupted files in the fixed Zip, before fixing it there are a lot 
more.  That’s based on telling PKZIP to check the ZIP integrity. 

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: CD-R, DVD-R media available

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Kodak Gold CD-R’s were supposed to be the best as I recall.

The Verbatim DataLifePlus are definitely long lived. 

I can’t remember if I’ve found any Sony or TDK disks in the stuff I’ve 
recovered recently, I believe I used both on occasion, but not for archives 
(though I’ve recovered CD’s I didn’t intend to be archives).  I have no 
experience with FujiFilm, except for DLT Tapes.

Zane




> On Feb 1, 2023, at 8:51 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone here know which brands/lines had the best longevity?
> 
> --
> Anders Nelson
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 11:28 AM David Barto via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> 100’s of CD-R, Sony, TDK, and FujiFilm.
>> 25-30 DVD-R Sony and TDK
>> 
>> And CD cases sufficient to hold all the disks
>> 
>> Heavy, available for the cost of shipping.
>> I’m in San Diego, so local delivery is possible.
>> 
>>David
>> 
>> 

[cctalk] Aging of unused CD-R media

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I find myself wondering, how well does CD-R and DVD-R media that hasn’t been 
used age?  I have quite a bit of unused Verbatim DataLifePlus, as well as some 
other media that’s unused.

For the most part, I don’t need it, but I can see a couple reasons I might want 
to burn some in the future, mainly to exchange data with older systems.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: PKBACK Floppies?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 31, 2023, at 1:26 PM, David Glover-Aoki via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Jan 29, 2023, at 9:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
> wrote:
>> 
>> Some of the floppies I’m recovering data look to be either a multi-part ZIP 
>> file, or something.  Was this a separate product from PKZIP?  I’m not sure 
>> if I have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I’ve recovered thus far.  I’ve not 
>> pulled them into DOSBOX to try and restore them, so far I’ve just tried to 
>> use Stuffit-Expander.   Part of the problem is every file has the same name, 
>> just on different floppies.
> 
> Info-ZIP still supports "split" archives, and spanned archives can be 
> converted to split archives by renaming them to the appropriate extension. 
> From the man page:
> 
> zip version 3.0 and later can create split archives.  A split archive is a 
> standard zip archive split over multiple files.  (Note that split archives 
> are not just archives split in to pieces, as the offsets of entries are now 
> based on the start of each split.  Concatenating the pieces together will 
> invalidate these offsets, but unzip can usually deal with it.  zip will 
> usually refuse to process such a spliced archive unless the -FF fix option is 
> used to fix the offsets.)
> 
> One use of split archives is storing a large archive on multiple removable 
> media.  For a split archive with 20 split files the files are typically named 
> (replace ARCHIVE with the name of your archive) ARCHIVE.z01, ARCHIVE.z02, 
> ..., ARCHIVE.z19, ARCHIVE.zip. Note that the last file is the .zip file.  In 
> contrast, spanned archives are the original multi-disk archive generally 
> requiring floppy disks and using volume labels to store disk numbers.  zip 
> supports split archives but not spanned archives, though a procedure exists 
> for converting split archives of the right size to spanned archives.  The 
> reverse is also true, where each file of a spanned archive can be copied in 
> order to files with the above names to create a split archive.
> 
> A split archive with missing split files can be fixed using -F if you have 
> the last split of the archive (the .zip file).  If this file is missing, you 
> must use -FF to fix the archive, which will prompt you for the splits you 
> have.
> 
> David.

So far I’ve tackled one split zip.  I wasn’t having any luck with the version 
of PKZIP that I assume created this.  I copied the files into a directory, and 
did COPY FILE1.ZIP+FILE2.ZIP+FILE3.ZIP+FILE4.ZIP+FILE5.ZIP COMBINED.ZIP

That still wasn’t working, as the file was corrupt, but I managed to use 
PKZIPFIX to fix it, and then I could unzip it.  The info above will definitely 
help, especially with regards to the ZIPs missing the first part.

Slowly I’m recovering my old DOS system.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 31, 2023, at 2:19 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
>>> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
>>> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
>>> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
>>> casing?)
>> 
>> Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference.  The as I said 
>> recently, all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I’ve tried to recovered have been 
>> fine.  The main data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another 
>> manufacturer.
>> 
>> I’m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc’s.
>> 
>> As part of my recent efforts I’ve regained access to data that while live on 
>> spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999.
>> 
>> Zane
> 
> I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered for 
> CD blanks.  As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity 
> of the write-once kind.  Makes sense since those are reversible, which 
> suggests that the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the 
> way that NVRAM (flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last 
> forever unless they have a process defect.
> 
>   Paul

I was quite frankly amazed that I was able to recover data from Memorex CD-RW 
disks.

I don’t remember if I’ve run across any DVD-RW disks in my efforts (they do 
exist).

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as
> well as anything.
> 
> The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be
> finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come.  I
> don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of
> various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your
> LTO-9 drive.  Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate
> controller.
> 
> 8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon.  And we all know the
> fate of QIC/Travan tapes.
> 
> The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep
> migrating it to newer storage.
> 
> --Chuck

When using tape as an archive medium, you must include a plan for refreshing 
those tapes.  When creating an archive solution, it’s important that the 
refresh of the media is an automated process that doesn’t require headcount.

Having a system in place for tracking where all your archive media is, and what 
it is, is equally important.  Case in point, I’ve spent the last 3 weekends 
trying to find some boxes of floppies.  I found “them” on Sunday, only to find 
that they are apparently no longer in one of the boxes, and that box must be 
one of the others I’ve found, and it’s been reused.  

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 31, 2023, at 10:22 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I know the first generation CD/DVD disc are known to "go bad" - the
> material itself somehow degrades and becomes unreadable by modern drives.
> I'm not sure if that's still the case with newer or more modern CD/DVD disc
> (not just that they're newer, but are they a more durable material or
> casing?)

Choosing the right blanks made a world of difference.  The as I said recently, 
all the Verbatim DataLifePlus I’ve tried to recovered have been fine.  The main 
data I lost was stored on a DVD-R blank from another manufacturer.

I’m now looking at switching to Verbatim M-Disc’s.

As part of my recent efforts I’ve regained access to data that while live on 
spinning disk, had become corrupted sometime between 1997 and 1999.

Zane

[cctalk] PKBACK Floppies?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Some of the floppies I’m recovering data look to be either a multi-part ZIP 
file, or something.  Was this a separate product from PKZIP?  I’m not sure if I 
have a copy of PKZIP in the stuff I’ve recovered thus far.  I’ve not pulled 
them into DOSBOX to try and restore them, so far I’ve just tried to use 
Stuffit-Expander.   Part of the problem is every file has the same name, just 
on different floppies.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 29, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I’m looking at some 3.5” floppies from about 1995, so probably about the 
>> time I got my first Mac.
>> Am I correct that System 7 used A:\RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP as the Resource Fork 
>> data?  MacOS 12.5 doesn’t appear to use it. :-)
>> A bunch of the floppies I’m looking at have this, including ones that appear 
>> to be PC Backups.
> 
> That sounds like a floppy disk written by PC Exchange. RESOURCE.FRK would
> contain any resource fork for any file in that folder, so at the root
> \RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP would probably have been the equivalent of the Desktop
> folder.

Thanks Cameron, that jogs a few old brain cells, and sounds right.  Initially I 
thought this had something to do with FASTBACK on MS-DOS, which made zero 
sense, as I was finding them on FASTBACK backup floppies.  Then I realized some 
of the floppies were just simple data floppies.

I’m finding Google has limited knowledge of some of this stuff.

Zane

[cctalk] Mac System 7.1 or 7.5 question

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m looking at some 3.5” floppies from about 1995, so probably about the time I 
got my first Mac.

Am I correct that System 7 used A:\RESOURCE.FRK\DESKTOP as the Resource Fork 
data?  MacOS 12.5 doesn’t appear to use it. :-)

A bunch of the floppies I’m looking at have this, including ones that appear to 
be PC Backups.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: OT: boxed board games (Avalon Hill, etc.)

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 21, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Chris via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Looking for a recommendation for an older (or even newer, some d games have 
> been rereleased anyway) for a either historical boxed table game ~A.D. 400 - 
> 1300. Or something sci-fi (nothing tv or movie related though).

For Sci-Fi, I’m really wondering about “Isaac Asimov Presents - Star Traders” 
from “Steve Jackson Games.  It was released in 1987, and sounds interesting.  I 
know Avalon Hill did “Starship Troopers”, I have a copy, but don’t think I’ve 
ever played it.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 20, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 1/20/2023 1:05 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
>> Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process.  The GW itself connects to 
>> the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of zeros 
>> and ones.  This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) where the 
>> captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which understands floppy 
>> formats.  You tell the analyzer what you are looking at.
>> 
>> The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track by 
>> track) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract 
>> directories and files.
>> 
>> On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it allows 
>>> standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way to image 
>>> the disk.  With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and 
>>> I can easily pull files off the disk.  Does this work with the GreaseWeazle 
>>> and a 5.25” floppy drive?
>>> 
>>> Zane
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> Not to discount Mike's response, but to Zane's original question:  At this 
> time, No, the GW only allows imaging.
> 
> *BUT*, there is nothing preventing the firmware Keir wrote from being 
> extended to support accessing the actual floppy disk directly via the USB 
> interface (by emulating a regular USB floppy drive set of commands).
> 
> In reality, most people just do with Mike is suggesting.  Grab the image and 
> then mount it as a virtual floppy and read the files/dirs as needed.
> 
> Jim
> 
> -- 
> Jim Brain
> br...@jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com

My thanks to all that answered.  I’ll probably pick up a GreaseWeazel at some 
point.  Right now I’m trying to judge my need.  I’ve only found a fraction of 
the 5.25” floppies I should have.  For that matter, I’ve only found about 60% 
of the 3.5” floppies I should have.  I’m mystified as to where three big boxes 
are, and those include the bulk of my 5.25” floppies.

Realistically that’s good enough Jim, though I find the way the 3.5” floppies 
are working to be quite useful.  I can take a look at what’s on them, and in 
many cases, I just pull the files off.  As there is no reason to image them.

Zane

[cctalk] USB Attached 5.25" drives?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it allows 
standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way to image the 
disk.  With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and I can 
easily pull files off the disk.  Does this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 
5.25” floppy drive?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] LINC-8 sells for $2,150

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Yes, but they have to move it now!

Zane 



> On Jan 17, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> That LINC-8 sold for $2,150.  A total bargain.
> 
> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage
> 
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 17, 2023, at 2:02 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> If you mean CHKDSK.EXE, it's broadly equivalent to Unix fsck plus a surface
> scan, and all fsck does is check and repair filesystem _metadata_. If the
> metadata is corrupt then that's a good sign that the data itself is also
> toast, but a successful verification of the metadata does not tell you
> anything useful about the data itself.

And this is where having Optical Discs help.  As part of my project, I’ve found 
backups from as far back as ’97, and as a result, recovered data that I’d lost 
by ’99.  That includes an update to a book that can no longer be found on the 
Internet, and all the code for a Shareware program I wrote in ’96/97.

The 3-2-1 rule says you should have at least 3 copies of your data, including 
two on different types of media, and a 3rd copy off-site.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: long lived media (Was: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 16, 2023, at 6:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I am interested in whatever media are more likely to still be readable in a 
> few decades.
> 
> M-Disc claims 100 year life, but, obviously, no M-Disc has lasted that long, 
> and they are making promises based on what they THINK will happen.
> 
> M-Disc BDXL is currently available in 100GB per platter.

In the early days of this list (think back 25 years), I believe it was Tim 
Shoppa that was recommending either Gold CD-R blanks, or Verbatim DataLifePlus. 
 If I remember correctly, he’d done some aging tests on them, and they were the 
two that held up well.  As a result, I standardized on Verbatim DataLifePlus 
for any CD’s I expected to be reading after a year.  I’ve read ones from 1997 
without problem.  In fact I think I’ve only had a couple minor issues.  One of 
the disks I read had to be washed before I could even attempt it as it has been 
sitting out bare.

What has surprised me is the results from the floppies, mostly stored in the 
garage for the last 15 years, and before that, I don’t remember.  Granted I 
tended to go with higher quality floppies, but still, I’ve expected a lot more 
issues than I’ve had.  Some of the 3.5” floppies I’ve read date back to 1987 or 
88.  Mind you I’ve not tried to recover data from 5.25” floppies yet, I’m still 
trying to find those, and a big drawer/box of 3.5” floppies.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 16, 2023, at 5:11 PM, Chris via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Been there. Seen it. It seems paper or tyvek is the way to store these things.

Thankfully most of the disks that I’ve imaged that don’t have jewel cases, are 
in paper sleeves.  Or even worse, a few have been loose.  It looks like this 
may be the main CD impacted.  It looks like most of I used these accursed 
sleeves for are DVD-R’s from nearly 20 years ago, that I don’t care about.

> But the question is in 2023 why are you still committing data to optical 
> media? I dumped all my cds and dvds on to magnetic storage years ago. I got 
> burned waiting as long as I did even.

I’m recovering CD’s and Floppies at this point, not burning, though I will 
probably see about burning these onto an M-Disc.

Zane

[cctalk] Damage to CD-R from CD Sleeve

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

This is a strange one.  I have a bunch of CD sleeves like this, that I used to 
use.

https://www.amazon.com/Mediaxpo-Double-sided-Refill-Sleeve-Holder/dp/B002ROAIC2/ref=sr_1_16?crid=2IDUIGLI7EY9I

I’m trying to recover data from a Verbatim DataLifePlus CD, and when I started 
looking at it, I noticed that it has a cross hatch/herringbone pattern on it.

Has anyone run across anything like this?  At first I was hoping to simply wash 
it, as it seemed like that might be possible.  I tried to wash it multiple 
times, and while it seems a little better, it’s still not clean, and I think 
that it might actually be etched into the surface, due to a chemical reaction. 

Thankfully Toast 14’s “Use Data Recovery” option was able to recover the data, 
and image the CD-R.

Another problem I’ve found is that you need to use a Mac running a version of 
MacOS prior to 10.15 if you have HFS formatted CD’s.  I bought a nice external 
drive, since my DVD-RW drive in my 2010 Mac Pro died, planning to use it on my 
MacBook Pro, only to discover that MacOS 12 wouldn’t read most of my CD’s.  You 
can’t even do a ‘dd if=/dev/disk5 of=test.iso’, as they appear to have broken 
basic UNIX functionality.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 5:36 PM, Chris via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Disks give errors, duh. Whatever you use to image a disk, use it as a first 
> attempt, as that may be the ONLY chance to save the contents. People put a 
> disk in the drive, do a directory scan, screw around some more. And then the 
> disk is no longer readable. It happens. Just bang it with whatever program 
> you got before worrying what's on it.

At this point in time, this is advisable for almost any magnetic media any of 
us would be working with.  Though I’ll admit I have looked at a couple of the 
disks before imaging them, I’m trying to remember to image first, then read the 
image.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 9, 2023, at 8:02 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On 1/8/23 23:21, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> On 1/8/23 8:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
>>> I avoid Disk Utility like the plague.
>> Doc, will you please elaborate on why you avoid the Disk Utility (.app)?
> 
>  Short version is that the GUI Disk Utility hides too much of what it's doing 
> AND, more to the point, makes assumptions by default.  Yes, it's possible to 
> override the default but after [holy crap!] 2 decades of using it I still 
> have to fumble around.
> 
> I much prefer the command-line "diskutil".  It's the same tool, I guess, but 
> the CLI demands explicit control.  In almost every operation that writes to 
> disk, if you leave out a parameter the operation doesn't happen.  Bonus, you 
> can get very detailed diagnostic info.
> 
> Plus, you know... I'm still a little averse to pointy clicky.
> 
> 
> Doc

I think I can answer this one myself, after looking at the few images I’ve 
created.  Based on the size, and not digging deeper, it looks like the “dmg” 
format only stores what it has to, so it doesn’t appear to be a byte-for-byte 
copy.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 9, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
wrote:
> https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usbmass-ufi10.pdf
> 
> USB Mass Storage Class – UFI Command Specification Revision 1.0
> 4.10.2 Formattable Capacity Descriptors
> The UFI device supports the following capacity descriptors.
> Table 35 - Capacity Descriptors Supported by USB-FDU
> DD 720 KB
> HD 1.25 MB (1024-byte sectors)
> HD 1.44 MB

I think any 800KB Mac floppies I’d have, have already been imaged (on my 
PowerMac 8500/180 in 1999).  I’ve successfully read a 720KB floppy.

Both USB Floppy drives I have are pretty old, the one I’m using is the newer of 
the two, and even it is about 22 years old.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Reading Old Floppies

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 7:41 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 1/8/23 19:29, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive?  I 
>> managed the first 3.5” floppies no problem, I’m using a USB Floppy Drive 
>> hooked up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using “Disk Utility”.  
>> The next two floppies have had errors.  Though I think I was able to 
>> successfully copy all the files off the one.
>> Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it age? 
>>  I know I’ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, but 
>> they’re *OLD*.
> 
>  I avoid Disk Utility like the plague.
> 
>  dd works great, although MacOS's device naming is stupid.  "diskutil list" 
> will show you what the floppy device is, and "sudo diskutil unmountdisk 
> diskX" will free it for imaging.
> 
>  If you can source a Blue Pill, though, you can handwire it to a floppy drive 
> and run the greaseweazle tools...
> 
> https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Blue-Pill-Direct
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> Doc


For the CD’s and CD-R’s I’ve been doing, I started using Roxio Toast, but after 
a few the DVD burner on my 2010 Mac Pro decided to stop reading disks.  As a 
result I’ve been using a vintage 2011 MacBook Pro, and unmounting the disk, 
then using dd.

What is the difference between a “Blue Pill” and a “Greaseweazle”?

I plugged in the USB Floppy to my modern Mac Laptop, and was pleasantly 
surprised to find things working as well as they are.  After a bit more 
fighting, I think those two floppies are unreadable.  The one I couldn’t even 
copy data out of.  The other I was able to get the data off of.  These are 
floppies that haven’t been stored well, so I’m not surprised.

Looking into this, Greaseweazle looks interesting.  I’d seen some of the posts 
about it, but not really paid attention.  I have to admit, in part, due to 
owning a Catweazle Zorro board for my Amiga 3000, that I was never that happy 
with.  It looks like everything is there to then covert the Greaseweazle images 
to use on an emulator (I’d want to mostly use on DOS Box).

As it happens, one of the CD-R’s that I imaged, contained basically all my Mac 
floppies, I have found a couple that didn’t get imaged.  I’d imaged them on my 
PowerMac 8500/180, when I was getting ready to replace it with a PowerMac 
G4/450, as that’s when Apple dropped floppy support.

I need to assess just what I have for PC Floppies, that I want to try to 
recover.  At least they *should* be easier to locate than what I’ve been 
working on so far.

Zane

[cctalk] Reading Old Floppies

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

When reading old floppies, how often is it advisable to clean the drive?  I 
managed the first 3.5” floppies no problem, I’m using a USB Floppy Drive hooked 
up to my Mac Laptop, I was able to image them using “Disk Utility”.  The next 
two floppies have had errors.  Though I think I was able to successfully copy 
all the files off the one.

Also, what is floppy drive cleaning fluid made of, and how well does it age?  I 
know I’ve got at least a couple cleaning floppies around here, but they’re 
*OLD*.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Dec 22, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 5:35 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> We used to shun anything newer than and including the IBM PC but
>> time.marches on.  You're safe if you discuss systems produced before 1990.
>> After that put an OT in the front of your subject so as not to offend the
>> purists.  Personally I think anything built after 1995 is too new for
>> cctalk, but thats just me.
> 
> As mentioned elsewhere, the old "10 year" rule is long irrelevant.
> 
> I think 1995 is a good general cut-off for a strictly time-based
> threshold, but it's not a hard boundary - PPC Macs I would think
> should still be in bounds.
> 
> A softer rule would probably be "(nearly) anything goes except
> nearly-current Windows PCs".  If a machine can run WinXP, it's too
> new.  Also as mentioned, there are plenty of lists about modern PCs.
> 
> -Ethan


For PC’s, being able to run WinXP is an interesting cutoff, and I think makes 
sense.  Though in my case, my need for WinXP is due to a 35mm film scanner that 
only works with the OEM software, and that only runs on WinXP.  Currently I use 
it via Parallels Desktop running on a 2010 Mac Pro.  People lucky enough to 
have drum scanners run them with potentially older hardware, especially if 
connected to a Mac.

I’ll argue that Intel-based Macs or newer are off-topic, and I say that even 
though I’m a heavy user of Macs, even 10+ year old ones, including having 
software that only runs on even older ones.

I’d also argue pretty much any DEC Alpha, Sun, HP-UX, SGI IRIX, or non-PC IBM 
system is on topic.  Even the current IBM z16 Mainframe is something of a 
classic in my mind. :-)

Zane

[cctalk] Re: [SPAM] Re: what is on topic?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Anything up to 64-bit has been on topic over the life of this list.  Though 
64-bit initially was pushing it, less so now, as I’d definitely consider 
something like a Sun Ultra 2, or DEC Alpha to be very much on topic.  I 
definitely participated in discussions of early Macintosh systems back around 
’97.  I doubt I participated much (if at all) in discussions of early PC’s.  
I’ve always viewed discussion of off-topic PC’s to be of more interest, though 
I am starting to look at vintage PC’s a bit differently (simply due to wanting 
to still access some vintage software, and needing to move off Parallels 
Desktop on my Mac).

While I probably wouldn’t want to participate in a discussion of them, I’d 
argue that a “Willamette” Pentium 4 is sufficiently vintage, and something of 
an odd-ball today.  Same with any PPC based Mac.  While I have Intel based 
Mac’s that are 10+ old, I don’t consider them to be classic, especially as one 
is still in nearly daily use.

I like your proposal of, "don't bring up boring modern topics that have a 
better home somewhere else."

Having seen another of your posts, I’m left to wonder how many of us had our 
eyes opened by this list back in 1997.  In my case having worked on some 
systems decidedly “vintage” systems, prior to joining the list helped spark my 
interest.  That and my love of Operating Systems.  I want to say that I found 
the list after picking up my first couple vintage computers, back when you 
could find them at Goodwill cheap. 

Zane



> On Dec 21, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> This list was never declared to be exclusively an 8-bit affair.  I'm not
> sure where you're getting that from.  From the get go in 1997 when Bill
> Whitson founded the list, all computers of a vintage or obsolete nature
> were game for discussion.  It's only after a few years and time marching on
> with its inevitable technological progress, and companies that were once
> industry stalwarts started to fall by the wayside, that we began to
> question what the cut-off is.  And as far as the IBM PC, it was definitely
> vintage by the time the list was launched.  The objections back in the day
> as I remember them were to questions pertaining to modern x86 or Macintosh
> systems that had plenty of forums elsewhere on the internet to engage in
> discussions of those (i.e. this is not a tech support forum) (...unless
> it's vintage tech).  These days, however, I think it's fine to discuss
> 286/386/486 and even Pentium (below the II, at least) systems because
> they're sufficiently "vintage" now in the sense of the word that I think
> brings focus to the purpose and nature of this hobby.
> 
> In the interest of putting this thread to rest, if I were to call the rule,
> I'd make it simple: don't bring up boring modern topics that have a better
> home somewhere else.
> 
> And with that, I hope we can move on, or at least morph this thread into a
> more interesting topic.
> 
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what is on topic?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Chris via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Specifically as pertaining to old/vintage/classic/retro compuing discussion, 
> what exactly is on topic? On top of my head as a for imstance I have some 
> questions pertaining to Windows 2003 and socket 603/604. Something tells me 
> that doesn't qualify, so it behooves me to ask.

The original rule, back around ’96/97 was anything older than 10 years was 
on-topic.  I think the idea behind that is still valid, but these days a 10 
year old system isn’t that much different from a current one.  I think at one 
point someone suggested it should be shifted to 20+ years.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Exabyte recovery

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

As a reminder, since I’ve seen at least 3 different drives mentioned in this 
thread.  Not all drives can read all tapes.

Given the age, I’d recommend someone that does this professionally (and I 
believe that includes Chuck).  I’ve worked with computer tapes for something 
like 40 years, and I try to avoid 8mm tapes, though I prefer them to 4mm tapes.

Zane




> On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:18 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Indeed. I have a Cybernetics 8505 in the shed, I was just looking at it and 
> wondering if it still worked.
> 
> What tends to go on these things? Rubber in there, capstains, etc?
> 
> C
> 
> On 11/10/2022 10:45 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/9/22 20:52, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>> I have a few old exabyte tapes of possible historic value. Who can I pay to
>>> get them recovered that has the best chance of success?
>>> 
>> Very difficult.  We were a big user of Exabyte drives for processing of 
>> physics experimental data.  Our experience is Exabyte drives had a lifetime 
>> of 1-2 years, no matter if they were powered on, in heavy use or just parked 
>> on a shelf.  Back in the day, we found outfits that would refurbish and test 
>> the drives for a modest cost, but I assume they are not doing that now.
>> I do have an 8200 drive here, but I have great doubts that it would work.
>> Jon

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Oct 18, 2022, at 7:42 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
>> Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.
>> Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
>> people taking your land.
> 
> And for the younger crowd it's very expensive now. Not like the old days 
> (assuming you live near a job center.)
> 
>   - Ethan

This last weekend was the “Portland Retro Gaming Expo”, it was something of an 
eye opener as to how prices have gone up.  There were some good deals, for 
example I was tempted by the two Commodore 128D’s and the Atari Stacy one 
seller had, but as a whole, the prices leaned towards crazy.  

Thankfully I bought most of my collection of classic computers in the late 
90’s.  These days if I’m buying anything, it’s usually something modern to 
extend an old system, or a part I need.  I’ll also admit a certain amount of 
bewilderment on people getting excited to collect  something like a Pentium II.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Oct 17, 2022, at 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> . . . and there is the point where it crosses over
> from you owning the collection,
> to the collection owning you.

This is a very accurate statement.  How many of us have grown to have a 
love/hate relationship with our collections.  My wife isn’t the one saying it 
takes up to  much room, I am.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Oct 17, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> However you define it, who has the largest private collections?  Is
> there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection?  I
> hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes
> unmanageable.
> Bill

I’m happy to say that I don’t have the largest, but I will say that I’ve 
considered that my collection to be too large for many years.  There is a lot 
to say about a collection becoming unmanageable at a certain size.  I think one 
of the primary factors is how much time the collector has to dedicate to their 
collection.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: z9 (s390x) mainframe up for grabs in Melbourne, FL

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Oct 5, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> From the "Mainframe Enthusiasts" Discord; I don't have any other contact
> for him but I can send you a link to the Discord if you can't get there
> yourself.  This is one of the first (maybe the first) of the 64-bit zSeries
> (descendant of S/360, S/370, S/390) machines.  You would have to pay IBM a
> lot of money to legally run a modern z/OS or MVS or VM or z/VM or VSE or
> z/VSE on it (and current versions won't work, but, like, z/VM 4.4 would).
> You could run MUSIC/SP for free, and of course VM/370 and MVS 3.8 are in
> the public domain (although I do not know offhand if the z9 can run those
> late-70s OSes).  It will also run S/390 and z/Linux of the right vintage,
> which are free but maybe difficult to acquire these days.
> 
> From Member @Booper : Z9 mainframe, ds8000 storage array , tape drive and
> misc components are scheduled to go to scrap at the end of the month. If
> someone wants to chime in and throw some money my way, i can sign the whole
> storage unit over to you. Located in melbourne fl.

That z9 is very much a modern Mainframe, it’s only 17 years old, and the 
current z16 came out this year.  The S/390 series was discontinued back in ’98, 
and the z-Series started in 2000.  I wish I could afford to retrieve it, and 
bring it online.  I can’t afford it, and it sounds like we’re talking about a 
minimum 4 racks.

Will the damage from Hurricane Ian cause problems for anyone trying to retrieve 
it, and any idea if the Storage Unit suffered storm damage?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Aug 20, 2022, at 7:47 AM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I had to look up SA400. I'm too young.
>> 
>> The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3¼ inch drive.
>> 
>> https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive:nmah_334325
>> 
> 
> Now THAT is just tragic.
> 
> g.

I have to ask, which is tragic?  Needing to lookup SA400, or the fact that 
webpage (from the Smithsonian), indicates it’s a 3 1/4” drive.  That wasn’t 
typo on my part they say *three*.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Wordperfect 5.1 workbook

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Aug 18, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I have a Wordperfect 5.1 workbook.
> 
> It's yours in exchange for a PDF of a shipping label from 91214 (or
> free for l;ocal pickup).
> 
> 9" x 9" x 1", 2lb 8oz.
> 
> Van Snyder

Which OS is it for?

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Vacation messages (was Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 94, Issue 24)

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jul 18, 2022, at 10:30 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> Are these vacation messages becoming a problem?  We never saw then
>> before.
> 
> Maybe.  Has the blasted thing replied to the list more than once now?
> 
> De

Definitely, I think it’s a problem with this persons “Vacation” message.  Not 
sure what they’re using, but it appears to reply to *every* email, instead of 
just the first.

Zane

Re: List migration

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jul 16, 2022, at 7:05 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
wrote:

> I can see your reply.  Really though this is to test my reply. :-)
> 
> Zane

It’s worth noting that I sent this out at 7:05pm last night, I received it from 
the list at 12:25am.  I’m not sure if that’s a sign of a problem or not.

Zane

Re: List migration

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jul 16, 2022, at 12:26 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> I recently used "Reply" instead of "Reply List" to attempt a private reply.  
> That attempted to send to the list anyway, but I didn't notice.
> 
> That lead to three days of "delivery delayed", and finally to "Delivery 
> Status Notification (Failure)", with this reason given:
> 
> 554 5.7.1 Service unavailable; Client host [209.85.160.47] blocked using 
> dnsbl.sorbs.net; Currently Sending Spam See: 
> http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?209.85.160.47
> 
> So, here's me now, testing whether I can reply to the list at all.
> 
>   Vince

I can see your reply.  Really though this is to test my reply. :-)

Zane

Re: Retire cctech

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jul 13, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I've belatedly realized that it's going to be a bit of a headache to
> implement the old cctalk/cctech crossposting duality under the new
> version of mailman.
> 
> I seem to recall a discussion about retiring the cctech list and just
> continuing with cctalk, and that the consensus was in favor of that.
> 
> I'll call this message a consent agenda indicating that I plan to do
> that, unless there's loud outcry.
> 
> De

I’m fine with that.  I never cared for the duality.

Zane 

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 28, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> For the UDT at least the RS232 lines are regular RS232 and the plug I made 
> for communicating with it was just an old PC serial pigtail bodged onto a 
> short SCSI ribbon cable.
> 
> I would expect CON to be CONfiguration port; No idea what FP is for.

That’s good to know.  If you have the actual adapter, it will work for both the 
Unibus and QBus boards.  So what worked for use for a UDT, should work on a 
QBus board.

Zane

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 28, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board monitor 
> which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk to the 
> controller board and do various things.
> 
> Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to construct 
> my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter to the 
> controller?
> 
> Doug


I seem to recall that it’s more than just a cable, I want to say there is some 
circuitry in there.  Unfortunately I’m not sure where my adapter is at the 
moment.

Zane

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Were there ever any floppy controllers for the (parallel) PCI bus? I
> Googled a bunch and haven't found any.
> 
> I am trying to outfit a computer for the long haul that can run a bunch of
> older software in virtual machines and do things like duplicate floppies in
> different formats. The motherboard I have supports all the formats I have
> tried, but only supports one drive. It also only has PCI and PCIe slots.
> 
> -chuck

Catweasel?

http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Catweasel

Zane

Re: Retro networking / WAN communities

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Apr 11, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> You’re one of the people I’d expect to be running 10Base-2 at home.  I only 
> have one 10Mbit switch still online, it’s for my DECserver 90TL, the only 
> 10Base-2 device that I keep online (I have a couple others).

A correction here, I’m talking about a 10Base-T hub with a 10Base-2 connector, 
not a 10Mbit switch.  I’m too used to using switches.

I do have a 10Base-T to 10Base-2 media converter that I spent a  of a lot 
money on, before I realized I simply needed a cheap 10Base-T switch with a 
10Base-2 connector.  The media converter is my backup plan if the hub dies.  If 
the DECserver dies, I’m in trouble.

Zane

Re: Retro networking / WAN communities

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 11, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use I 
> have a few 10Base2 bits).  And I did ATM for a living for about 5 years, back 
> around 1995, so I can still talk a bit of that.
> 
> Hey, you didn't mention FDDI.  :-)
> 
>   Paul


Hi Paul,
You’re one of the people I’d expect to be running 10Base-2 at home.  I only 
have one 10Mbit switch still online, it’s for my DECserver 90TL, the only 
10Base-2 device that I keep online (I have a couple others).

All my 10Base-T devices are plugged into 1Gbit managed switches.

Zane

Re: Quantum ATL-7100 DLT Changer in SLC

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

You wouldn’t be able to put TK-70 drives in this, wrong interface.  I don’t 
know if DEC DLT drives capable of reading TK50’s and TK70’s will work in one.  
We only used DLT III and DLT IV tapes in them.  We first got one of these 
something like 25 years ago.  The earliest ones are rock solid, really well 
built, and very simple to repair.  Same with the smaller Quantum 4/52.  At the 
time Quantum wouldn’t send out a Quantum FE to work on the 4/52’s or 7100’s.  
I’d get the guy out to diagnose the problem, get the replacement parts ordered, 
and then when the parts came in I’d never tell him, I simply replaced them 
myself.  Just be careful when taking the big side panel off that hides the 
electronics, otherwise you’ll rip out the sense switch.  If you can find a 
source of spares, you can probably keep one of these going without too much 
trouble.

As for the problem this one has, with the load port, just fold a piece of 
corrugated cardboard in half, and use it to hold the door close, I ran one in 
production for a couple years, so I could avoid putting in a service call.

I’ve worked with Tape Libraries for over 25 years, and the 4/52 and 7100 are 
two of my favorites.  The Quantum P3000 is my least favorite.  The Quantum 
i2000’s and i6000’s were also rock solid, but I wouldn’t want one of those at 
home.  

On the topic of old Quantum tape libraries, does anyone happen to know of a 
company that will provide 3rd Party support on them?

Zane



> On Apr 9, 2022, at 6:37 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I have this strong desire to pick this up and install TK70 tape units. 
> Finally I can back up my pdp11 items in style :-)
> 
> C
> 
> On 4/8/2022 11:58 PM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote:
>> I have a Quantum ATL-7100 100 tape DLT changer. Last I checked it worked 
>> fine. It's almost as big as a fridge. I have around 100 tapes for it, not 
>> all the same density. It uses fast/wide scsi-3 differential for the drives. 
>> I think I have 2 working drives in the cabinet plus one or 2 separate 
>> external drives.
>> I think my drives are DLT-7000 or similar which gives a total capacity of 
>> 7TB.
>> Upgraded with SDLT 220 drives and tapes the chassis would have a capacity of 
>> 22TB.
>> Anyone interested in picking this up in South Jordan Utah? (outside Salt 
>> Lake City).
>> The only issues I know about it, is the tape loading pivoting door is not 
>> quite rotating correctly, and I replaced one of the AT power supplies with a 
>> unit that is NOT autoswitching. So if you want to run the unit on 220V 
>> instead of 110, you will need to change the chassis and the replaced 
>> internal power supply.
>> It's really fun to load it up with tapes, then tell it to auto-shuffle them. 
>> I have the door hot wired so you can open the door while it's operating. 
>> Easy to restore the switch if you don't want to.
>> Photos here:
>> https://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-atl7100
>> Interested, please email directly, I don't check the list very often.
>> Tim

Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
>   I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box.
> 
>   It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached,
> 
> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive 
> attached.
> 
> Diag sees drive as RA82.
> 
> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine.
> 
> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems.
> 
> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC.
> 
> So how do I install an operating system?
> 
> Suggestions please.

You can install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I couldn’t figure out 
how to install RSTS/E from CD-R.

Zane 

Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Both of these are memory partitions.   The only OS I can think of predating 
> the ones you mentioned is RT-11, the later versions (V2 did not have them).  
> When did Unix first get partitions?
> 
>   paul

Partitions are pretty important in RT-11 v5.x, after all, there is the 
partition size limit, so you have to have multiple partitions for almost any 
HD, except very small ones.

Let’s not forget hardware enforced partitioning, the WEQSD/04 ESDI controller 
comes to mind.  It see’s a single large ESDI HD as a single disk, but you can 
partition it on the controller, and the OS sees each partition as a separate 
physical disk.  I seem to remember some MFM controllers that made the MFM drive 
appear to be RL01/RL02 or RK05 packs.

Zane

Re: 2 microvax 3800's for sale

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

It might help people decide if you mention which chassis, and boards these 
include.  I gather they don’t include Hard Drives?  If they’re 3800’s, I 
*assume* they would need DSSI drives?

Thankfully you’re amost as far from me as you could be, and still be in the US.

Thanks,
Zane



> On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:18 PM, devin davison via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I had picked up these machines fresh out of high school. I actually worked
> a deal with the buyer to make payments out of my paycheck for a few weeks
> till they were paid in full. i have not had the time to focus and get them
> running.
> 
> one machine i have had up to the cpu monitor, no internal disk drive.
> 
> the second machine has some corrosion on the front panel board, where the
> battery leaked. it iminimal, and the bad battery is removed.
> 
> open to offers.
> 
> located in US Florida
> 
> Looking to sell off excess stuff, i want to focus on my pdp11's and
> mainframes.

Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival
> storage, you should have your (tape) head examined.
> 
> Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, 
> AT&T UNIX PC, etc.

Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a 
VTL?  On VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual 
tape drive on a SIMH/VAX system.

Zane

Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
>> As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have 
>> to question the sanity of this.  These 
> tapes are *HOW* old?  What was their intended lifespan?  While we all like to 
> keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try 
> to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes?
> 
> Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives.
> 
> I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem 
> with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them 
> runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly.
> 
> Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, 
> lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or 
> so.
> 
> QIC Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change.

I’m also not using MFM or ESDI drives.  I converted my Q-Bus HW to SCSI 20+ 
years ago.  When I get it back up and running, I plan to convert it to SCSI2SD. 
 OTOH, I am trying, for some insane reason to get a DSSI system going.  I 
started converting my SCSI based DEC HW to SCSI2SD last summer.

Having said that, that’s good news on the TK50’s and TK70’s, I have a couple 
boxes in my office (so somewhat nicely stored) that I need to read, in my 
nonexistent free time.  My plan has been to buy a refurbished SBB that will 
read them.  I’m more likely to trust the TK50 in my PDP-11 than the 4mm DAT. 

I’ve read 30 year old 9-track tapes on production hardware, and I’ve read very 
old TK50’s (as well as other DLT-style tapes).  Things like QIC, 8mm, and 4mm, 
I try my best to avoid on production systems.

Zane

Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 18, 2022, at 7:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* 
> QICs without having to destroy them constantly.

As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to 
question the sanity of this.  These tapes are *HOW* old?  What was their 
intended lifespan?  While we all like to keep our hardware as original as 
possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age 
with QIC tapes?

Can you emulate the tape device?

Zane

Re: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I love an excuse to buy a tool. I think *good* tools are always a worthwhile
> investment. After a buying a tool that I think I will only use once, I tend
> to find other uses for it over time. Maybe you will find yourself needing to
> replace an SMT component on another machine in the future?

Purchasing *good* tools is a key thing.  A good tool is an investment, a cheap 
tool is often a waste of money (there are always exceptions).

Zane

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 4, 2022, at 4:05 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> 
>> There's a photo on twitter:
>> 
>> https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2
>> 
>> showing a guy standing before an open one at Fermilab.
> 
> 
> In of the pictures are shown some very handy tape and disk pack holders on 
> wheels. I never saw such fancy holders. Would be great to come across one of 
> those - or better so some myself.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Pierre

The tape cart is just a standard cart for taking tapes between the tape library 
room and where the tape drives are located.  I’ve seen an updated version made 
for DLT/SDLT/LTO tapes.

The disk pack holder on the other hand is something I’ve never seen, I have to 
wonder if it was custom, and how well it handled an uneven load.

Zane

Re: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> The thing that always made me wonder is where are all the 8600's. The 8600 
> was apparently the best selling large Vax, outselling the 780 and 750, so 
> what happened to all of them? They weren't any bigger than a 780...

The only VAX 8xxx I’ve heard of in this area was scrapped.  I managed to rescue 
the system console and the “digital” badge off of the VAX, but the scrapper had 
some sort of deal with the Hospital that had it to scrap the VAX itself, IIRC.

Personally, these days, I think the largest I’d seriously consider is a VAX 
4000 series, though I’d try to figure out how to handle a VAX 7000 if the 
chance arose.  

One of these days, I want to get SIMH/VAX running on a 12th Gen Core i7 (or 
better).  With the ancient i7 I have here, I’ve been able to get about 34 VUPS, 
which is faster than my VAXstation 4000/90.

Zane

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:18 PM, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster for 
> most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users mostly 
> in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs. IIRC, the 
> 750 had faster disks...
> 
> Warner

I picked up a copy of “VAX I/O Subsystems: Optimizing Performance”, it gives 
I/O speeds for SDI and DSSI disks, I don’t doubt that the VAX-11/750 had faster 
disks if it had RA81 or especially RA82 disks.

Here we go, from the HP "OpenVMS I/O Users Reference Manual” for 7.3-1.
"On VAX systems, the RD53 and RD54 are 5.25-inch, full-height, Winchester-type 
drives with average access time of 38 ms and a data transfer rate of 0.625 MB 
per second.”

Even the RA80 can beat that, basically any SDI disk on a VAX-11/750 would be 
noticeably faster.  There is a reason why MicroVAX I and II systems with 
RD53/54 drives were considered to be good for Performance Tuning training.  
It’s really easy to notice improvements.

Zane

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

The worst part is I know it’s 0.9 VUPS.

Zane 



> On Jan 2, 2022, at 6:36 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-01-02 9:33 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Microvax 2 is .9 vup.
> 
> Oops, Zane vupped up.
> 
>> C
>>> On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP
>>>> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP
>>>> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP
>>>> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP
>>> 
>>> Thank you Zane.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Grant. . . .
>>> unix || die
> 

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> I've always felt that in terms of performance the proper measure would have 
> been VUPS/kW :-)
> 
> That way my little MicroVAX 2 would be able to hold its head high!

On that note a Raspberry Pi 2b running SIMH/VAX is about 1.6 VUPS.

Zane 

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 1/2/22 5:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical 
>> perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the ARPANET, 
>> not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on)
> Is that Bitnet as in the Because it was there network that many IBM 
> mainframes were on?
> 
>> but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would equal it 
>> CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the SBI was cool for 
>> the 782 option but was pretty slow.
> 
> Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX Units of Performance 
> (VUPs)?  I /think/ that the VAX 11/780 was 1 VUP.


VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP
VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP
MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP
MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP

Zane 

Re: PDP-11/44 gas struts

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Out of curiosity, is there a manual for this style PDP-11/44 online?  This is 
the style I have, but I’m pretty sure my manual is for the pull-out enclosure.  

A manual on this enclosure might give some idea on the gas struts.

Zane



> On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:58 AM, jim stephens via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail.  I think 
> from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall cabinets and 
> systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides.
> 
> This I think is  like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as the 
> cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top.
> 
> As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a supplier 
> like McMaster Carr.  I don't think any NOS on these would be any better than 
> the ones  you have that rotted out.
> 
> I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from the 
> original owner's storage to mine.
> 
> I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are tackled.
> 
> thanks
> JIm
> 
> On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote:
>> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet.
>> It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and
>> supported by two gas struts, one on each side.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have
>> failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is
>> heavy!
>> 
>> Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Alan Frisbie
>> 
> 

Re: 370 control panel

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 8, 2021, at 10:20 AM, David Wade via cctech  
> wrote:
> 
> Is "not on EPAY" a good thing. I see there is a 10% buyers premium plus 4% 
> for credit card
> .. and " ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD AS IS WHERE IS AND HOW IS WITH NO WARRANTIES OF 
> ANY TYPE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED CONCERNING"
> 
> Give me EPAY any day
> 
> Dave

Personally I’d be more concerned with this…
"SHIPPING IS ONLY WITH PRIOR ARRANGEMENT WITH AUCTION COMPANY ON SMALL ITEMS. 
PLEASE CALL 814-341-”

(Note, I blanked out part of the phone number).

With that, this might be a good deal for someone that can pick it up locally.

Zane

Women of Computing

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I really want to see this set produced, especially for the “Ada Lovelace” and 
“Admiral Hopper” portions of the set.

https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e

Zane