[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
One method to do what you want would be to do the following: 1. Connect a TTL to RS-232 Converter to the serial port on the Raspberry Pi https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Compact-RS232-Converter-Female/dp/B00OPTOKI0 2. Enable the serial console on the Raspberry Pi. Log-in to your Pi using the default username |pi| and password |raspberry|*. *Then**issue the following command: *sudo nano /boot/config.txt* This will launch the nano text editor with sufficient privileges to modify the file. Then use the arrow keys to navigate to the end of the file and add the following line: *enable_uart=1* And that’s it! The next time you reboot your Raspberry Pi you’ll be ready to move on to the task of actually attaching that funky USB serial cable. 3. Connect a serial to ethernet adapter on each remote system. https://www.amazon.com/CERRXIAN-Ethernet-Serial-Device-Converter/dp/B087J9F6LF/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1Z8M6ZR7Z1QRV=rs-232+to+ethernet=1659446389=electronics=rs-232+to+ethernet%2Celectronics%2C92=1-4 Keep track of the ip addresses of the adapters. 4. Login to the Raspberry Pi on the terminal 5. Install telnet on the RPI *sudo apt install telnet *6. telnet This will work with any Raspberry Pi, even the Pi Zero 2 W. Note: Telnet will not do any terminal emulation or translation. Configure your local terminal for the emulation you need or configure the remote hosts to the terminal you are using. On 8/2/2022 6:48 AM, David Wade via cctalk wrote: -Original Message- From: Ali via cctalk Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: Ali Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this nicely. Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. -Ali Ali, Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports to be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 will let you have both types of ports. It’s a bit modern and complex but seems to fit the bill.. Dave
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> -Original Message- > From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port > > > I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > > nicely. > > > > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi > with a > built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus > configuration. > There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial > console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by > Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. > > -Ali Ali, Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports to be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 will let you have both types of ports. It’s a bit modern and complex but seems to fit the bill.. Dave
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Aug 1, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but >> there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi >> Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or >> something like this. >> >> A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time >> interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA >> and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. >> > > You had me all enthusiastic there until I got to the word "MicroPython" :-( > I'm going to stay with my patch panel! MicroPython is an option. There's also a C API. I've used MicroPython for prototyping, and the C API for the finished project. Best of both worlds. paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> > For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but > there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi > Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or > something like this. > > A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time > interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA > and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. > You had me all enthusiastic there until I got to the word "MicroPython" :-( I'm going to stay with my patch panel! Regards, Peter Coghlan.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Jul 31, 2022, at 7:25 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk > wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 2:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> Yet another one is Raspberry Pico, >> >> Neither of these come standard with Ethernet, though I've seen option cards. >> In the case of Pico, it seems possible to do 10 Mb/s Ethernet in software >> using its PIO controller, though I haven't made the attempt. > > For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but > there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi > Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or > something like this. > > A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time > interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA > and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. Yes, though the MicroPython PIO machinery is not well documented, I found myself having to read the source code to understand it. But it's a great prototyping tool. Thanks for the Pico W pointer, I'm going to look at that. paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022, Fritz Mueller wrote: +1 for the Digi Portserver for this application. I recently grabbed one off eBay, because I have a number of vintage terminals here which I would like to ?crossbar? to a number of vintage computers with serial terminal support, and also provide both telnet out (vintage terminals telnet to modern systems) and in (LAN or WAN terminal emulator clients to serial ports on vintage systems). The Portserver looks like it is going to do this job nicely. Doesn't any terminal server do the job? We have several different here. They all allow both terminal and host attachment to their ports, allow connections between serial ports, between a serial port and LAN (e.g. Telnet), in both directions (Telnet out, Telnet in), sometimes raw connections (without Telnet negotiation). Modern devices also implement SSH and Web Shells. The oldest device here is a Bridge CS/100 (still running). Then we have Emulex Performance 2500 and 4000, Lantronix ETS-16, a Digi Portserver (I don't like Digi, the ports often hang and have non-standard pinouts), Lantronix SLC, Avocent ACS 8000, ... All are capable of doing every mode of connection between serial ports/LAN. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Ali wrote: modern system using an IP:port schema. This works great except I don't get to play with my shiny, new to me, authentic experience terminal device. Why not? You attach the terminal to your terminal server, too, and connect from the terminal to one of the other serial ports (or telnet/ssh to a remote over LAN). Christian
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 10:23 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I am wondering if there is a box that provides a telnet CLIENT to a > serial port device? I.E. a box smart enough that handles the telnet client, > LAN functions, and terminal emulations internally and then provides a text > based interface through a serial port that is compatible with my physical > terminal? > On Jul 31, 2022, at 12:51 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > You can do what I believe it is that you want with any Digi > PortServer. +1 for the Digi Portserver for this application. I recently grabbed one off eBay, because I have a number of vintage terminals here which I would like to “crossbar” to a number of vintage computers with serial terminal support, and also provide both telnet out (vintage terminals telnet to modern systems) and in (LAN or WAN terminal emulator clients to serial ports on vintage systems). The Portserver looks like it is going to do this job nicely. The only feature it doesn’t appear to have which I would like to have is “rotaries”, allowing automatic selection of an idle serial port from a group when connecting to a back end system that supports multiple serial lines. But it was a lot more affordable used than the Cisco equivalents. —FritzM.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
This may take the fun lan interface out of the equation but I would still think any serial switcher might work for you. Just leave the cables connected to the systems and the terminal and use switcher to change devices?
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> What you have been describing, and what no one else seems to have
> twigged to,
> is what we called a TIP ("terminal interface processor") or EtherTIP
> (because
> it sat directly on the 3Mbit/10Mbit Ethernet, unlike the ARPANET TIPs
> that sat
> on a 56Kbit leased line). There were dozens of these scattered across
Rich,
That is quite interesting. I suspected that such devices probably have been
around for a long time in some form or another but I had never heard the
term EtherTIP. As Jonathan pointed out the Lantronix devices have the same
capability by putting them into modem emulation mode and then using the
ADTD(IP ADDRESS:PORT) command. I am not sure how capable the telnet client
is but I would guess it may have been as good as the Cisco boxes. If I do
roll my own Pi solution I at least now know how to properly refer to it :D.
Thanks.
-Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 2:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Yet another one is Raspberry Pico, > > Neither of these come standard with Ethernet, though I've seen option cards. > In the case of Pico, it seems possible to do 10 Mb/s Ethernet in software > using its PIO controller, though I haven't made the attempt. For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or something like this. A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 4:46 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
What you have been describing, and what no one else seems to have
twigged to, is what we called a TIP ("terminal interface processor")
or EtherTIP (because it sat directly on the 3Mbit/10Mbit Ethernet,
unlike the ARPANET TIPs that sat on a 56Kbit leased line). There were
dozens of these scattered across the Stanford campus when I arrived
there at the start of the autumn quarter.
I've not thought about the name "TIP" in a while. I'm used to
associating it as a command in SunOS / Solaris for accessing something
over the serial port.
But I've normally heard these types of things referred to as a "terminal
server". I believe that various makes & models of said terminal server
class devices have been recommended multiple times in this thread.
These were Cisco boxes (although they predated 'cisco Systems by a few
years) configured with one or more RS-232 interface cards which IIRC
supported 16 lines per card, and sat on the same Multibus backplane as
the SUN-1 processor board which ran the Cisco software (later called
"IOS") and the Ethernet interface card (which attached to the thicknet
cables with a vampire tap). Later versions, of course, used thinnet
(i.e. 10base2), and even later used 10baseT. The box was the same
as the Cisco routers with the addition of serial cards.
Interesting.
Maybe I should allocate a Round Tuit to researching old historic Cisco.
The user sitting at the dumb terminal typed a carriage return, the TIP
woke up, and the user saw a prompt for a hostname on the command line.
(Other commands were available, but the default was to treat any
unrecognized command as a hostname.) The TIP would then open a telnet
connection to the specified host, and the user would do whatever she
wanted to on the remote box.
This is still the behavior that I see on Cisco routers. 2500, 2600,
2800, etc.
You can probably easily re-create this behavior over the AUX port and /
or asynchronous serial interfaces in the router, e.g. 16 port NM.
Cisco still (I think) sells TIP-style boxes, although they are
generally based on Catalyst designs, since Cisco's engineers were
more concerned with making better routers after a while. You should
be able to find a relatively inexpensive Catalyst type box on ePay.
Put it on your LAN, hook your dumb terminal to it, and Robert's your
male parental sibling.
I'd be afraid that such a traditional terminal server would be
physically larger than desired and may cost more than something like an
older Raspberry Pi, et al. Depending on the fans, there's a good chance
that it would make more noise too.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 14:57:07 -0700
> From: Ali via cctalk
> I agree that is exactly the behavior I want. However, none of the devices
> that have been suggested seem to do that i.e. connecting a Lantronix UDS1100
> to the dumb terminal does not provide a usable telnet CLIENT interface. The
> device has been designed to act as a telnet SERVER to expose the host
> (i.e. RAID Controller interface) to the outside via the telnet
> protocol. Again for most uses this is all you need. You would then use
> whatever modern device you have with a telnet client to connect to your
> device. I am throwing a monkey wrench in it by trying to use a 1980s dumb
> terminal as my I/O device. :)
> As we discussed any half decent system (a 486, SPARC, etc.) can provide the
> intelligence to do this. I was hoping there was a purpose built box that
> could be used in a turnkey manner and be hidden away out of sight for my
> use. Failing that rolling a Pi system w/ serial HAT or a USB to RS232 adapter
> maybe the cheapest option as you suggested.
What you have been describing, and what no one else seems to have twigged to,
is what we called a TIP ("terminal interface processor") or EtherTIP (because
it sat directly on the 3Mbit/10Mbit Ethernet, unlike the ARPANET TIPs that sat
on a 56Kbit leased line). There were dozens of these scattered across the
Stanford campus when I arrived there at the start of the autumn quarter.
These were Cisco boxes (although they predated 'cisco Systems by a few years)
configured with one or more RS-232 interface cards which IIRC supported 16
lines per card, and sat on the same Multibus backplane as the SUN-1 processor
board which ran the Cisco software (later called "IOS") and the Ethernet
interface card (which attached to the thicknet cables with a vampire tap).
Later versions, of course, used thinnet (i.e. 10base2), and even later used
10baseT. The box was the same as the Cisco routers with the addition of
serial cards.
The user sitting at the dumb terminal typed a carriage return, the TIP woke up,
and the user saw a prompt for a hostname on the command line. (Other commands
were available, but the default was to treat any unrecognized command as a
hostname.) The TIP would then open a telnet connection to the specified host,
and the user would do whatever she wanted to on the remote box.
Cisco still (I think) sells TIP-style boxes, although they are generally based
on Catalyst designs, since Cisco's engineers were more concerned with making
better routers after a while. You should be able to find a relatively
inexpensive Catalyst type box on ePay. Put it on your LAN, hook your dumb
terminal to it, and Robert's your male parental sibling.
Rich
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> > When I looked at the manual for the Lantronix UDS1100 I did not see > any mention of it being able to be used as Telnet client. > > PDF Page 54. > > You put it in manual CONNECT mode, modem emulation, and type > "ATDT10.20.30.40:23" on most modern Lantronix devices. I have no > personal experience with the UDS1100, but I've got the UDS10 and UDS100 > devices kicking around the shop. Jonathan, Thanks. That definitely looks like it will do what I need. Not quite as elegant as I had hoped but workable. I am going to look at prices for these units to see how much they are going for used on eBay. I am still interested in the Pi solution as well though as it provides more flexibility and could make for a slicker interface/solution (i.e. terminal client with a phone book) as it would run a full Linux system. I have to see what I can cobble together! -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this nicely. IMHO, the Raspberry Pi, et al. qualify here too. On Sun, 31 Jul 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: Well after looking around a bit last night and my Google fu failing to provide anything worthwhile Grant may be right i.e. there is no device that make a shell or a telnet client available to a terminal and I will have to roll my own. I have absolutely no experience with Raspberry Pi (or any of these mini embedded devices). Looking around it looks like a box would set me back about $130 even if I can get all the parts: If you have no experience with such devices, then building this may seem daunting. OTOH, if you have sufficient familiarity with other systems (PC, Unix, Mac-OS, CP/M, Apple-DOS, TRS-DOS,...), . . . Setup a computer to do what you want. It doesn't meet one of your criteria of small, but, consider it to be temporary, ... Once you have SOMETHING doing exactly what you want, then replicate that device with the Raspberry Pi. Having a working system to model it after will eliminate the time pressure, identify most of the issues that will need to be addressed, and make it into an excellent learning exercise. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 3:57 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: I am throwing a monkey wrench in it by trying to use a 1980s dumb terminal as my I/O device. :) It's not that big of a monkey wrench in and of itself. It just does mean that you're in the minority use case. :-( -- Welcome to the club. :-D As we discussed any half decent system (a 486, SPARC, etc.) can provide the intelligence to do this. I was hoping there was a purpose built box that could be used in a turnkey manner and be hidden away out of sight for my use. Failing that rolling a Pi system w/ serial HAT or a USB to RS232 adapter maybe the cheapest option as you suggested. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
See https://www.longsteve.com/fixmybugs/vt220-terminal-meet-raspberry-pi/Connect for one person's write-up on how to connect a serial terminal to a Raspberry Pi, either through a USB to RS-232 adapter or to a Raspberry Pi's serial pins via a TTL to RS-232 adapter. If you connect to a Pi's built in serial port pins note that it's a 2-wire interface (ground, transmit, receive) with no control signals supported so if you run at a high baud rate the terminal not be able to keep up and could drop some characters from the display, but really who can read text at even 9600bps (approx. 960 characters a second)? Also may sure if connecting to the Pi's serial port pins that you choose a TTL to RS-232 adapter that uses 3.3V signal levels for transmit and receive. With a serial terminal connected to a raspberry Pi or other *nix system, you can telnet from the Pi to other devices on your LAN. And see https://www.isticktoit.net/?p=1728 for some other ideas of things you can do with a serial terminal connected to a *nix system like a Raspberry Pi. There are plenty of other articles out there on the web on how to do this kind of thing.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> When I looked at the manual for the Lantronix UDS1100 I did not see any > mention of it being able to be used as Telnet client. PDF Page 54. You put it in manual CONNECT mode, modem emulation, and type "ATDT10.20.30.40:23" on most modern Lantronix devices. I have no personal experience with the UDS1100, but I've got the UDS10 and UDS100 devices kicking around the shop. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> Hitting return a few times on the terminal will get the attention of > the > device; e.g. Raspberry Pi, that it's connected to. > > Depending on how said device is configured, you will either get a login > prompt (e.g. getty+login) or a shell prompt (e.g. getty+shell). > > Then you will tell said device to connect to the RAID array's > telnet/serial gateway. Nominally, this could be as simple as `telnet > `. > > At least that's how I would configure things if I wanted to use a > traditional (dumb) terminal to be able to connect to multiple remote > devices. Talk to the serial /server/ and ask it to connect to the > other > device on your behalf. Grant, I agree that is exactly the behavior I want. However, none of the devices that have been suggested seem to do that i.e. connecting a Lantronix UDS1100 to the dumb terminal does not provide a usable telnet CLIENT interface. The device has been designed to act as a telnet SERVER to expose the host (i.e. RAID Controller interface) to the outside via the telnet protocol. Again for most uses this is all you need. You would then use whatever modern device you have with a telnet client to connect to your device. I am throwing a monkey wrench in it by trying to use a 1980s dumb terminal as my I/O device. :) As we discussed any half decent system (a 486, SPARC, etc.) can provide the intelligence to do this. I was hoping there was a purpose built box that could be used in a turnkey manner and be hidden away out of sight for my use. Failing that rolling a Pi system w/ serial HAT or a USB to RS232 adapter maybe the cheapest option as you suggested. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port (Ali)
> What about one of these? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DWLS7DP > > $11.38, and provides four ports. If that's not enough, you could do a > bi-level multiplex arrangement; 5 of these ($56.90) would provide 16 > ports. > Mark, Thanks. This would be a good solution if everything was in the same general area. Plus as part of this project I want to get the devices "on the LAN" which is actually the easy part. I can wire the hosts up to readily available console/terminal servers and they can be accessed from any device with telnet capability (e.g. my mobile phone on the road using VPN). The "fun" part for me was to get an old style dumb terminal to work with the setup hence my original question. That way I could have the dumb terminal on my desk or somewhere convenient and show it off connecting to the different hosts. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> Yeah that's basically it. You can often assign aliases so that e.g. > `CONNECT RAID` executes a Telnet to a specific IP/DNS name, and many > support setting up a default or automatic connection so that as soon as > the terminal autobauds it just connects to whatever the default is. > > Devices like the Lantronix UDS series also allow you to add a virtual > COM port to your OS, so that you see /dev/ttyXX in *NIX (COMx in > Windows) and when you connect to it, you're really going out over > Ethernet to the serial device. Jonathan, When I looked at the manual for the Lantronix UDS1100 I did not see any mention of it being able to be used as Telnet client. However, if it can function as you say that would be perfect. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> At least that's how I would configure things Yeah that's basically it. You can often assign aliases so that e.g. `CONNECT RAID` executes a Telnet to a specific IP/DNS name, and many support setting up a default or automatic connection so that as soon as the terminal autobauds it just connects to whatever the default is. All of this will require device-specific commands, but they're all similar and at this point basically support the same feature sets. Devices like the Lantronix UDS series also allow you to add a virtual COM port to your OS, so that you see /dev/ttyXX in *NIX (COMx in Windows) and when you connect to it, you're really going out over Ethernet to the serial device. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 2:54 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: Can you expand on this? I am not sure how this is supposed to work out. So in my scenario I have a dumb terminal connected to one of the suggested devices. On the other side I have the out of band serial port controller for my RAID connected to a terminal server like the Avocent. The Avocent is presenting the RAID controller as a telnet session. Now how is hitting REIURN a few times on my dumb terminal going to bring up a telnet session much less a telnet session to the host I am interested in? Thanks. Hitting return a few times on the terminal will get the attention of the device; e.g. Raspberry Pi, that it's connected to. Depending on how said device is configured, you will either get a login prompt (e.g. getty+login) or a shell prompt (e.g. getty+shell). Then you will tell said device to connect to the RAID array's telnet/serial gateway. Nominally, this could be as simple as `telnet `. At least that's how I would configure things if I wanted to use a traditional (dumb) terminal to be able to connect to multiple remote devices. Talk to the serial /server/ and ask it to connect to the other device on your behalf. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> 1. If you want to connect an actual Serial Terminal to multiple hosts > the easiest thing to use is a DB-9 or DB-25 switch box. Something like > this: This would work if everything was in the same room. As the devices are in different rooms and floors no joy there without running cable all throughout. > > 2. If you want to be able to connect to multiple serial host over your > LAN one option would be to use any number of a myriad of multiple > serial > port to USB adapters. Something like that: ... > Then you can VNC or RDP (Remote Desktop) into the PC and then > connect to the serial ports with a terminal emulator. > > However, that does not allow you to use your serial terminal. Which as I pointed out in my original post was the whole point for this exercise in futility LOL > 3. If you don't want to run RS-232 cables to your hosts you can use > this to connect them to your network using something like this: > https://www.amazon.com/CERRXIAN-Ethernet-Serial-Device- > Converter/dp/B087J9F6LF/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=rs- > 232+to+ethernet=1659281867=rs-232+to+%2Caps%2C119=8-5 > You connect to your hosts with any TCP/IP capable terminal > emulator. > > However, that does not allow you to use your serial terminal. See above. Thanks. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> You may of course choose to DIY but there have been several common and > cheaply-available-used solutions presented to you. The default behavior > of most terminal servers (single port or otherwise) is, "connect your > terminal, hit RETURN a few times, Telnet/rlogin/SSH/whatever to > whatever host you desire." Hi Jonathan, Can you expand on this? I am not sure how this is supposed to work out. So in my scenario I have a dumb terminal connected to one of the suggested devices. On the other side I have the out of band serial port controller for my RAID connected to a terminal server like the Avocent. The Avocent is presenting the RAID controller as a telnet session. Now how is hitting REIURN a few times on my dumb terminal going to bring up a telnet session much less a telnet session to the host I am interested in? Thanks. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On Sun, Jul 31, 2022, 1:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Either way, a complete system might cost 10-20 dollars. Check our > "Arduino Nano" or "Adafruit Trinket". I used the latter in my LK201 > keyboard emulators. > Are these available? If, what's the details? Warner
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
Hi Ali! On Sat, 2022-07-30 22:23:04 -0700, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for some advice and recommendations on how to best go about > accomplishing the following: > > I have recently come into possession of an actual physical terminal that can > be connected to a device via a standard RS232 (serial) port, so far so good. So there's two things. First, you need to get your devices connected somewhere (ie. servers, switches, whatever talks serial.) That can be done by anything with a number of serial ports (ie. using USB-serial adapters and some rfc2217 software. That will provide the "server" part so you could use telnet (or, even better, a rfc2217-aware terminal client) to connect to your serial console ports. Now there's the (physical) terminal you want to use. If you roll your own (USB-serial adapters), I *think* (never tried it) you'd be able to use `socat` to act as a TELNET/rfc2217 client on one side and relay that data to a serial port (where you can attach your glass terminal.) I don't know if rfc2217 is finally there in socat, but there were patches flying around (ie. http://www.dest-unreach.org/socat/contrib/socat-rfc2217.html). MfG, JBG --
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Jul 31, 2022, at 3:45 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2022, 1:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > Either way, a complete system might cost 10-20 dollars. Check our "Arduino > Nano" or "Adafruit Trinket". I used the latter in my LK201 keyboard > emulators. > > Are these available? If, what's the details? Open source designs, all the details are at https://github.com/pkoning2/lk201emu (LK201 emulator) and https://github.com/pkoning2/ddcmp (DDCMP sync interface). paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 10:23 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > So I am wondering if there is a box that provides a telnet CLIENT to a > serial port device? I.E. a box smart enough that handles the telnet client, > LAN functions, and terminal emulations internally and then provides a text > based interface through a serial port that is compatible with my physical > terminal? That way my physical terminal would be connected to the RS232/LAN > bridge all the time and I could connected to not only the serial ports > connected to the console server but other telnet accessible services as all > the heavy lifting would be done on the bridge. I am ideally looking for a > ready to go, low power device, I can hide away as opposed to setting up a PC > of my own running some *nix flavor that I know can do this but is way over > kill. Oh yeah and if it is super cheap even better. Thanks! > You can do what I believe it is that you want with any Digi PortServer. I just verified this with one of the original Digi PortServer 16, 5260 models. With that model you can configure a port device type as a "term", and when a terminal is attached to such a port it will connect to a command prompt. You can also configure a port device type as a "prn", which can be a general purpose outgoing port connection, not just a printer. >From a "term" port command line, you can open an outgoing telnet connection to other hosts on the network, or to any other "prn" port on the local PortServer. Other hosts on the network can open telnet connections to the "prn" ports. Newer PortServer models may have different names for port device types, and different commands for connecting to ports on the local PortServer, but should still have those capabilities. If you look at an original PortServer, or PortServer II model on eBay, make sure the power adapter is included. They use a triple voltage 5-pin DIN connector power supply, which you wouldn't want to have to find separately. Newer PortServer models use single voltage power adapters, which would be easier to replace. Some PortServer models have built-in power supplies. How many ports total would you like to have? A 4-port or 8-port Digi terminal server can be found on eBay at reasonable prices in the US ($20 - $35 today for some models). You will almost always have to supply your own RJ45 - DB9/DB25 cables at additional cost.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Jul 31, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Now I wonder what I'm conflating. I was thinking of something else that's > /not/ running Linux but frequently used for tings. AT Tiny? AT Tiny is a microcontroller. You may be thinking of Arduino, which is another family of small cheap embedded computers with a complete ecosystem. Unlike Pi and BeagleBone, Arduino uses a small RTOS. The original ones were AVR based; later ones use ARM. Either way, a complete system might cost 10-20 dollars. Check our "Arduino Nano" or "Adafruit Trinket". I used the latter in my LK201 keyboard emulators. Yet another one is Raspberry Pico, which in spite of the name is nothing like a Pi and doesn't run Linux. It's conceptually like Arduino but both more powerful and less expensive. I built a DDCMP sync line controller out of one of those. Once again, not Linux but rather an RTOS. Neither of these come standard with Ethernet, though I've seen option cards. In the case of Pico, it seems possible to do 10 Mb/s Ethernet in software using its PIO controller, though I haven't made the atttempt. paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port (Ali)
I have recently come into possession of an actual physical terminal that can be connected to a device via a standard RS232 (serial) port, so far so good. <...> connected to one of these devices. This involves crawling around connecting the serial cable, doing what needs to be done, crawling back disconnecting, rinse and repeat. <..> connected to the console server but other telnet accessible services as all the heavy lifting would be done on the bridge. I am ideally looking for a ready to go, low power device, I can hide away as opposed to setting up a PC of my own running some *nix flavor that I know can do this but is way over kill. Oh yeah and if it is super cheap even better. Thanks! What about one of these? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DWLS7DP $11.38, and provides four ports. If that's not enough, you could do a bi-level multiplex arrangement; 5 of these ($56.90) would provide 16 ports. Zero power requirements, no software configuration. If it were me, I might consider buying a two-pole rotary switch with enough positions and solder one up, but for less than 12 bucks, it's hard to beat this... ~~ Mark Moulding
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 12:14 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: It's like Pi, I believe, another ARM based Linux device. ACK I started using the BBB some years ago when the Pi was using a chip whose specs were secret. Supposedly that's been cured. The BBB is built on TI silicon that comes with a downloadable 5000 page reference manual. I can appreciate that desire ~ requirement. There's a cost-reduced model called the BeagleBone Green which is just as good for most purposes. It's what David Gesswein recommends for his MFM emulator. ACK Adafruit is a good source of these things. Among other things they sell an RS232 "cape" (the BB name for plugin option cards), which is an RS232 level converter and DE9 connector that ties into one of the on-chip UARTs. Some years ago I built a variant that connects to all four UARTs, to make a 4 port mux for PLATO terminals. "hat" "phat" "cape" The System on a Chip (SoC) ecosystem has it's own terms. None of them are hard after introduction. But they can be confusion inducing until introduction. The standard Linux is Debian, preloaded and of course you can install whatever else you want in the usual easy way. Now I wonder what I'm conflating. I was thinking of something else that's /not/ running Linux but frequently used for tings. AT Tiny? I barely know anything about the SoC ecosystem. I largely consider the Raspberry Pi and (now) the BeagleBone to be SFF SBCs that can do many things when I need device about the size of (a pair of) a deck of playing cards. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Jul 31, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 7/31/22 11:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> One easy way would be to plug in a USB to RS232 adapter into any old Linux >> device, like a Pi. Another is to use an RS232 converter card for the >> built-in UARTs. I don't know about the Pi, but I've used such a device for >> the BeagleBone Black. > > I was thinking of the BeagleBone Black as another option. I personally have > no experience with them. It's like Pi, I believe, another ARM based Linux device. I started using the BBB some years ago when the Pi was using a chip whose specs were secret. Supposedly that's been cured. The BBB is built on TI silicon that comes with a downloadable 5000 page reference manual. There's a cost-reduced model called the BeagleBone Green which is just as good for most purposes. It's what David Gesswein recommends for his MFM emulator. Adafruit is a good source of these things. Among other things they sell an RS232 "cape" (the BB name for plugin option cards), which is an RS232 level converter and DE9 connector that ties into one of the on-chip UARTs. Some years ago I built a variant that connects to all four UARTs, to make a 4 port mux for PLATO terminals. The standard Linux is Debian, preloaded and of course you can install whatever else you want in the usual easy way. paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 10:38, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 31, 2022, at 1:50 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this >>> nicely. >>> >> >> Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi >> with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus >> configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data >> from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP >> and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a >> client device as well. > > One easy way would be to plug in a USB to RS232 adapter into any old Linux > device, like a Pi. Another is to use an RS232 converter card for the > built-in UARTs. I don't know about the Pi, but I've used such a device for > the BeagleBone Black. > > A Telnet client is a standard tool; if it doesn't come pre-installed it's > just a matter of installing the relevant package. > Exactly--I have several Opi-PC and OpiZ devices here and they all run Debuian linux. Buf for one, they're "headless"--I control them via Telnet or SSH. Run off a 5VDC 'wall wart". No issues whatsoever. You can, of course add video and keyboard, but it's not strictly necessary. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 11:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: One easy way would be to plug in a USB to RS232 adapter into any old Linux device, like a Pi. Another is to use an RS232 converter card for the built-in UARTs. I don't know about the Pi, but I've used such a device for the BeagleBone Black. I was thinking of the BeagleBone Black as another option. I personally have no experience with them. A Telnet client is a standard tool; if it doesn't come pre-installed it's just a matter of installing the relevant package. Yep. Configure things with DE-9 / DB-25 to 8P8C adapters, a la. Yost, and you've got a capable device. It could even be possible to configure the gateway device to inherently work both directions. Allow outbound connections /and/ inbound connections. The devil is in the details of configuring the software to do (at least) what you want it to do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 11:05 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: Well after looking around a bit last night and my Google fu failing to provide anything worthwhile :-/ Grant may be right i.e. there is no device that make a shell or a telnet client available to a terminal and I will have to roll my own. I somewhat glossed over the /exact/ specifics desired in the first email because I'm quite confident that any Linux / Unix (like) OS can do whatever it is you are trying to do with a serial port. The Raspberry Pi being a quintessential small form factor system. The question becomes more what specifically do you want to do so as to use that as information on how to configure the system. There is effectively no difference between a Raspberry Pi and a generic 486 and a SPARC Station 5. They are all acting as a tiny system to gateway between a serial port and the network in one way or another. Re-reading your original post (germane comment copied below for convenience) it seems like any Linux / Unix (like) OS would do the following: 1) Provide a shell prompt -- likely without login -- on a serial port for the physically connected terminal (emulating) device. 2) Issue telnet / rsh / rlogin / ssh / et al. commands to connect as a client to remote systems across the network. -- Which command is simply a matter of what /client/ software is installed on the system. I have absolutely no experience with Raspberry Pi (or any of these mini embedded devices). My personal opinion is that the Raspberry Pi /physical/ aspect of this is actually a minor part of the puzzle. Looking around it looks like a box would set me back about $130 even if I can get all the parts: I'm gobsmacked. I would have assumed that you could get into something sufficient for your needs for about a third of that (< $50). Now I am guessing the Pi 4 is overkill for what I need (text based shell running telnet or another telnet client). So nay advice and guidance is appreciated. Thanks. I strongly believe that any Raspberry Pi, even the 1st generation, can handle a single serial port at full speed with no problem. You /can/ do new if you want to deal with stocking issues. Or you can do used equipment for much less. To whit, I believe I have an old 1st generation Raspberry Pi that I'm not using in a case. I paid $10 for it. Add a USB to RS-232 serial adapter to it, configure some software, and you're off to the races at serial speeds. I'd even be willing to help configure the software and ship it to you. My wife would be happy to have some small amount of equipment leave the house. I'd be happy to see the system being used again. If you're interested, email me directly to discuss the particulars. Cover costs and effectively buy me a milk shake. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 10:21, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> i.e. there is no device that make a shell or a telnet client available to a >> terminal and I will have to roll my own. > > You may of course choose to DIY but there have been several common and > cheaply-available-used solutions presented to you. The default behavior of > most terminal servers (single port or otherwise) is, "connect your terminal, > hit RETURN a few times, Telnet/rlogin/SSH/whatever to whatever host you > desire." Orange Pi zero with a 3.3V to RS232C level converter (basically a MAX232 IC) should fit the bill, no? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> On Jul 31, 2022, at 1:50 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this >> nicely. >> > > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi > with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus > configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data > from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP > and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client > device as well. One easy way would be to plug in a USB to RS232 adapter into any old Linux device, like a Pi. Another is to use an RS232 converter card for the built-in UARTs. I don't know about the Pi, but I've used such a device for the BeagleBone Black. A Telnet client is a standard tool; if it doesn't come pre-installed it's just a matter of installing the relevant package. paul
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
Here are my suggestions for you: 1. If you want to connect an actual Serial Terminal to multiple hosts the easiest thing to use is a DB-9 or DB-25 switch box. Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Kentek-Female-Peripherals-Devices-Printer/dp/B07KWTJ7NF/ref=sr_1_4?crid=HQ5WFXUZBFZA=RS-232+switch+box=1659281663=rs-232+switch+box%2Caps%2C232=8-4 2. If you want to be able to connect to multiple serial host over your LAN one option would be to use any number of a myriad of multiple serial port to USB adapters. Something like that: https://www.amazon.com/Gearmo-Serial-Windows-Certified-Drivers/dp/B004ETDC8K/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3LYCC8JEXH6MG=4+port+usb+to+serial=1659281763=4+port+usb+to+serial%2Caps%2C125=8-3 Then you can VNC or RDP (Remote Desktop) into the PC and then connect to the serial ports with a terminal emulator. However, that does not allow you to use your serial terminal. 3. If you don't want to run RS-232 cables to your hosts you can use this to connect them to your network using something like this: https://www.amazon.com/CERRXIAN-Ethernet-Serial-Device-Converter/dp/B087J9F6LF/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=rs-232+to+ethernet=1659281867=rs-232+to+%2Caps%2C119=8-5 You connect to your hosts with any TCP/IP capable terminal emulator. However, that does not allow you to use your serial terminal. Good luck.
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> i.e. there is no device that make a shell or a telnet client available to a > terminal and I will have to roll my own. You may of course choose to DIY but there have been several common and cheaply-available-used solutions presented to you. The default behavior of most terminal servers (single port or otherwise) is, "connect your terminal, hit RETURN a few times, Telnet/rlogin/SSH/whatever to whatever host you desire." Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > nicely. > > IMHO, the Raspberry Pi, et al. qualify here too. Well after looking around a bit last night and my Google fu failing to provide anything worthwhile Grant may be right i.e. there is no device that make a shell or a telnet client available to a terminal and I will have to roll my own. I have absolutely no experience with Raspberry Pi (or any of these mini embedded devices). Looking around it looks like a box would set me back about $130 even if I can get all the parts: RPi 4 w/ case, PSU, heat sinks, etc. $130 (w/ tax etc.): https://www.ebay.com/itm/284826299524 RPi Serial HAT $26: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284910159003 Now I am guessing the Pi 4 is overkill for what I need (text based shell running telnet or another telnet client). So nay advice and guidance is appreciated. Thanks. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> Ali > > I have used the Lantronix UDS1100 for Ethernet/RS232 bridgingmaybe > too pricey new, but available on ePay > Trevor Trevor, I checked out the manual for the Lantronix and while it is a capable server it does not provide a client interface. Thanks. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> I got a Lantroix SCS 400 off of ebay for cheap. 4 Serial DB-9 ports, > one RJ45 LAN port. Has built in Telnet , SSH. I think you can go back > the other way, i.e. Computer -> LAN -> into one of the RS232 ports. > Never used it that way. > > Used it to connect actual terminals to Vax computers, very easy. > Connecting to Linux was hard, Linux doesn't like old style TELNET by > default. Doug, Thanks for the info. I will look and see if I can find the manual for it to check it out. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/2022 1:23 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: I am looking for some advice and recommendations on how to best go about accomplishing the following: I have recently come into possession of an actual physical terminal that can be connected to a device via a standard RS232 (serial) port, so far so good. I have a number of devices that can be connected to for maintenance (e.g. FW updates, configuration, etc.) via a serial port. Currently I have been using an old laptop with a terminal program (Procomm Plus) whenever I want to connected to one of these devices. This involves crawling around connecting the serial cable, doing what needs to be done, crawling back disconnecting, rinse and repeat. I can connect the physical terminal to one device at a time and have a permanent connection to that one device, great for one device but not so useful. So I was thinking if it would be possible to do this over the LAN. I know about console servers where I could connect multiple serial devices to the server and then access each device over LAN via a telnet client on a modern system using an IP:port schema. This works great except I don't get to play with my shiny, new to me, authentic experience terminal device. So I am wondering if there is a box that provides a telnet CLIENT to a serial port device? I.E. a box smart enough that handles the telnet client, LAN functions, and terminal emulations internally and then provides a text based interface through a serial port that is compatible with my physical terminal? That way my physical terminal would be connected to the RS232/LAN bridge all the time and I could connected to not only the serial ports connected to the console server but other telnet accessible services as all the heavy lifting would be done on the bridge. I am ideally looking for a ready to go, low power device, I can hide away as opposed to setting up a PC of my own running some *nix flavor that I know can do this but is way over kill. Oh yeah and if it is super cheap even better. Thanks! -Ali I got a Lantroix SCS 400 off of ebay for cheap. 4 Serial DB-9 ports, one RJ45 LAN port. Has built in Telnet , SSH. I think you can go back the other way, i.e. Computer -> LAN -> into one of the RS232 ports. Never used it that way. Used it to connect actual terminals to Vax computers, very easy. Connecting to Linux was hard, Linux doesn't like old style TELNET by default. Doug
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/31/22 07:23, Ali via cctalk wrote: So I am wondering if there is a box that provides a telnet CLIENT to a serial port device? I.E. a box smart enough that handles the telnet client, LAN functions, and terminal emulations internally and then provides a text based interface through a serial port that is compatible with my physical terminal? That way my physical terminal would be connected to the RS232/LAN bridge all the time and I could connected to not only the serial ports connected to the console server but other telnet accessible services as all the heavy lifting would be done on the bridge. I am ideally looking for a ready to go, low power device, I can hide away as opposed to setting up a PC of my own running some *nix flavor that I know can do this but is way over kill. Oh yeah and if it is super cheap even better. Thanks! I once used a DECserver200 terminal server to throw a login prompt (and subsequent login session) from a Linux host to a connected terminal. The DECserver uses the LAT protocol, not IP. I needed to change /etc/inittab to start a session not with getty, but some lat program I don't remember. regards, chris
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> I have used the Lantronix UDS1100 for Ethernet/RS232 bridgingmaybe too > pricey new, but available on ePay The older models (LRS-1, LRS-2, UDS10, etc.) also work fine. If you have more than one terminal, look at a small terminal server. There are a few terminal server models that go for serious money (e.g. DECserver 700s, for some reason) but most of them cost more to ship than to buy! Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
Ali I have used the Lantronix UDS1100 for Ethernet/RS232 bridgingmaybe too pricey new, but available on ePay Trevor On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 01:50:39 AM EDT, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > nicely. > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > nicely. > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
On 7/30/22 11:23 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: I am ideally looking for a ready to go, low power device, I can hide away as opposed to setting up a PC of my own running some *nix flavor that I know can do this but is way over kill. I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this nicely. Oh yeah and if it is super cheap even better. IMHO, the Raspberry Pi, et al. qualify here too. Thanks! :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
