Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread Ian S. King 
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 5:55 AM, geneb  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
>>>
>>> WTF did I just read.
>>>

 Fred in absolutely rare form.  I nearly choked on coffee at the
 "yodeling

>>> jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)
>>>
>>> Also, QUIT TOP POSTING.
>>>
>>> Be gentle, Gene.  Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a
>>>
>> term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice
>> suite of floating turds.  Even if you set it to do the right thing, it
>> will
>> randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing.
>>
>
> Sounds like an Intervention may be required. :)
>
> g


I keep telling him he should come work on spaceships with me.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread Liam Proven 
On 3 February 2017 at 19:32, Josh Miller  wrote:
> I love this.  Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine.  The laundry
> files are particularly crunchy.  The Internet is awesome.


He's a superb writer. I have all of his books up to about 2012,
because he gave me copies of them last time I visited him in
Edinburgh. :-)

Before he was a professional novelist, he wrote the Linux column for
Computer Shopper UK  -- overlapping my time on the staff of PC Pro.
That's how we first met, about 20y ago...

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread Josh Miller 

> A friend of mine, Charlie Stross

I love this.  Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine.  The laundry
files are particularly crunchy.  The Internet is awesome.

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread Liam Proven 
On 2 February 2017 at 23:21, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough!


A friend of mine, Charlie Stross, recently had to rewrite the outline
of a novel because his bleak dystopian vision of the near-future "free
world" wasn't _nearly_ bleak enough and the actual world has turned a
lot worse.

After his hasty rewrite, it's gone nastier again. His novel will now
seem like a cheerful upbeat alternate timeline instead.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread geneb 

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote:


On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb  wrote:


On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:

WTF did I just read.


Fred in absolutely rare form.  I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling

jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)

Also, QUIT TOP POSTING.

Be gentle, Gene.  Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a

term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice
suite of floating turds.  Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will
randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing.


Sounds like an Intervention may be required. :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-03 Thread Raymond Wiker 
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:51 AM, Ian S. King  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
> >
> > WTF did I just read.
> >>
> >> Fred in absolutely rare form.  I nearly choked on coffee at the
> "yodeling
> > jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)
> >
> > Also, QUIT TOP POSTING.
> >
> > Be gentle, Gene.  Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a
> term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice
> suite of floating turds.  Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will
> randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing.
> -- Ian (obviously the other one again)
>
> I read that at first as "Ex-Evil Empire", which does not sound quite
right. I have no problem with "Evil Ex-Empire", though.

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Ian S. King 
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
>
> WTF did I just read.
>>
>> Fred in absolutely rare form.  I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling
> jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)
>
> Also, QUIT TOP POSTING.
>
> Be gentle, Gene.  Ian works for the Evil Ex-Empire and is required as a
term of his indenture to use Outhouse-look, part of the Microsoft Orifice
suite of floating turds.  Even if you set it to do the right thing, it will
randomly choose to once again do the Microsoft Thing.
-- Ian (obviously the other one again)

>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread geneb 

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:


WTF did I just read.

Fred in absolutely rare form.  I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling 
jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)


Also, QUIT TOP POSTING.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Eric Smith 
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> Reality is weirder than the most ridiculous crap that I could come up with?
>

Yes. Satire is dead.

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Fred Cisin 

I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor.
It apparently failed at that.
Sorry.


On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote:

Fred, you have to turn it up to 11 - after all, consider your competition

these days in the domain of absurdity.


It wouldn't be so bad, if people just said that my writing was bad.

Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough!
Reality is weirder than the most ridiculous crap that I could come up 
with?




--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Mike Stein 

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Cisin" <ci...@xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 
38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]


> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
>> WTF did I just read.
> 
> An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically
> objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an
> off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence.
> 
> It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple 
> information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, 
> etc.
> 
> I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor.
> It apparently failed at that.
> Sorry.
>
--
Worked for me. ;-)

m

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Ian S. King 
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
>
>> WTF did I just read.
>>
>
> An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically
> objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an
> off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence.
>
> It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple
> information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, etc.
>
> I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor.
> It apparently failed at that.
> Sorry.
>
> Fred, you have to turn it up to 11 - after all, consider your competition
these days in the domain of absurdity.

-- Ian (the other one - we are everywhere)

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Fred Cisin 

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:

WTF did I just read.


An agreement with Mouse about plain-text, by sarcastically
objecting to use of plain text in the RFC, segueing into an
off-the-wall rant objecting to planned obsolescence.

It was inspired by finding only Youtube videos for some simple 
information, end of support for XP, involuntary Win7 to Win10 upgrade, 
etc.


I intended it to be absurd enough to provide some humor.
It apparently failed at that.
Sorry.




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:


If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.




 Nobody's going to read that the way that it is formatted.

If they expect people to read it, they will have to punch it up, with
fonts, colors, background images and textures, formats, animated emojis,
audio accompaniment, and embedded videos.

How can any message be taken seriously without any dancing kangaroos and
yodelling jellyfish?
Why is it being disseminated as a text file, instead of as a Youtube video?

Surely, the new administration's education policies will bring an end to
the arrogance of "literates" from insulting the intelligence of the voting
public of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.


Since there are still a rare few machines without the appropriate
hardware, smell-o-vision will have to remain optional.
But, the current combined policies at MICROS~1 and Apple of deprecating
any and all hardare and software more than six months old should fix that.
 That will also solve the fear that a system might still be in use after
its printer ink or smell-o-vision supplies are used up.
(microbots in solution in printer ink can complete the process of
preventing scofflaws from refilling printer ink)

Besides, it is clearly not in the best interests of manufacturing in
USA^H^H^HChina to permit such legacy relics to be permitted to continue to
exist.   Delegalization of obsolete computers will be coming soon,
unfortunately, federal agents have had some difficulty controlling the
content of the hundreds of machines that have the capability of
disconnecting from the interweb.   Replacing all NEMA connectors with
Micro-USB should help.


[MiniTru clarification: The appropriate executive orders were issued long
ago, when Bill Gates and Steve Jobs invented the first computer.]







--
  Ian Finder
  (206) 395-MIPS
  ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-02 Thread Ian Finder 
WTF did I just read.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.
>>
>
>  Nobody's going to read that the way that it is formatted.
>
> If they expect people to read it, they will have to punch it up, with
> fonts, colors, background images and textures, formats, animated emojis,
> audio accompaniment, and embedded videos.
>
> How can any message be taken seriously without any dancing kangaroos and
> yodelling jellyfish?
> Why is it being disseminated as a text file, instead of as a Youtube video?
>
> Surely, the new administration's education policies will bring an end to
> the arrogance of "literates" from insulting the intelligence of the voting
> public of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.
>
>
> Since there are still a rare few machines without the appropriate
> hardware, smell-o-vision will have to remain optional.
> But, the current combined policies at MICROS~1 and Apple of deprecating
> any and all hardare and software more than six months old should fix that.
>  That will also solve the fear that a system might still be in use after
> its printer ink or smell-o-vision supplies are used up.
> (microbots in solution in printer ink can complete the process of
> preventing scofflaws from refilling printer ink)
>
> Besides, it is clearly not in the best interests of manufacturing in
> USA^H^H^HChina to permit such legacy relics to be permitted to continue to
> exist.   Delegalization of obsolete computers will be coming soon,
> unfortunately, federal agents have had some difficulty controlling the
> content of the hundreds of machines that have the capability of
> disconnecting from the interweb.   Replacing all NEMA connectors with
> Micro-USB should help.
>
>
> [MiniTru clarification: The appropriate executive orders were issued long
> ago, when Bill Gates and Steve Jobs invented the first computer.]
>
> 
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

RE: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-01 Thread dave . g4ugm 
It fails DMARC verification. AOL has published. Google knows the original 
sender was an AOL.COM address. It faILS.


Dave


> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Coghlan
> Sent: 01 February 2017 10:36
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm
> 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
> 
> >
> > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best
> > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him.
> >
> 
> What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem.
> (I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail
> systems reject messages from him unless he told you this.  There is a big
> difference between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a
> mailing list".)
> 
> >
> > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially
> > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't
> > remember.
> >
> 
> By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming
> from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my
> mailserver or anybody else's mailserver.  If Gmail is noticing that mails 
> with an
> AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should be
> noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing list.
> None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the
> mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech
> mailing list server.
> 
> Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having
> spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the
> classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them?
> 
> Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are
> bouncing mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are
> able to receive them with no problems?
> 
> I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with
> whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any
> obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to justify 
> it
> other than to say "we think it works great".
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-01 Thread Mouse 
>>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software?  This has been
>>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
>>> years.
>> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the
>> destination mail server.

Depends on how you view `cause'.

My own mailserver is one what I believe must be a very few that will
reject mail for, for exmaple, being marked as containing 8859-1 text
but including octets like 0x92 which do not occur in 8859-1 text.  Yet
such bounces are actually caused by the composing MUA's nonconformance,
with every intermediate mailhost that handled the mail complicit by
acquiescence; my mailserver causes the bounce only in the immediate
sense of being the one that blows the whistle and throws down the red
flag, the one that flags the offence for what it is.

> What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which
> the bounces are counted.

I haven't read the code for that logic in any mailing list manager (or
at least if I have I don't recall).  But...

> I can understand shutting a subscriber off for getting 10 bounces in
> as many minutes.  On the other hand if those 10 bounces are spread
> over two months, it seems rather severe.

It depends.  If those 10 bounces in as many minutes were for 10
consecutive messages, perhaps.  If they were for 10 messages mixed
randomly among 250 others that were delivered fine, it seems somewhat
excessive to me.

If I were writing such code, I would pay attention to not only count
and time but also to non-bounced list traffic.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-01 Thread Peter Coghlan 
a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote:
>
> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
> years.
>

I got "server failed" several times when I tried to look up the MX records for
gnu.org.  It seems to be working now though.

Maybe this is a different problem or an issue at my end but if it isn't,
this could be the reason your mailing list mail is getting bounced.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-02-01 Thread Peter Coghlan 
>
> It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best
> practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him.
>

What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem.
(I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail systems
reject messages from him unless he told you this.  There is a big difference
between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a mailing list".)

>
> Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially
> spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't
> remember.
>

By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming
from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my
mailserver or anybody else's mailserver.  If Gmail is noticing that mails
with an AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should
be noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing
list.  None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the
mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech
mailing list server.

Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having
spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the
classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them?

Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are bouncing
mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are able to
receive them with no problems?

I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with
whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any
obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to
justify it other than to say "we think it works great".

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread william degnan 
On Jan 31, 2017 11:59 PM, "Kyle Owen"  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Brian L. Stuart 
> wrote:
> >
> > What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which
> > the bounces are counted.  I can understand shutting a subscriber off
> > for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes.  On the other hand if those
> > 10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe.
> >
>
> I agree. Seems like it's fixable:
> https://www.esosoft.com/support/mailinglist/mailman/bounce.html
>
> Looks like you can play with the bounce score threshold and bounce score
> reset interval.
>
> Wonder what the default is?
>
> Kyle

The best thing to do is analyze the logs and calculate the best intervals,
adjust to suit.  You can change for example to stretch each bounce to take
longer each time.  There are also ways to turn off bouncing selectively, or
respond dynamically based on how the receiving end reacts to the bounce.  I
have found watching for a few days works.

Bill

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Kyle Owen 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Brian L. Stuart 
wrote:
>
> What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which
> the bounces are counted.  I can understand shutting a subscriber off
> for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes.  On the other hand if those
> 10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe.
>

I agree. Seems like it's fixable:
https://www.esosoft.com/support/mailinglist/mailman/bounce.html

Looks like you can play with the bounce score threshold and bounce score
reset interval.

Wonder what the default is?

Kyle

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Brian L. Stuart 
On Tue, 1/31/17, geneb  wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
>> years.
>
> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the 
> destination mail server.

What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which
the bounces are counted.  I can understand shutting a subscriber off
for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes.  On the other hand if those
10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe.

BLS

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Chris Hanson 
On Jan 31, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
>>> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length
>>> lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.)
>> Thatâ??s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one.
> 
> If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.

Nope. Just because you refuse to believe in a world beyond the teletype doesn’t 
mean one doesn’t exist. The RFC you cite even admits that; the recommendation 
for 78-character lines is not a MUST in any case.

I’m actually a little surprised you’re citing such a recent RFC, honestly, 
rather than something from the early 1990s.

Also, in case you weren’t aware, just like an Internet-Draft isn’t an RFC, an 
RFC isn’t a standard. This one is a proposed standard, but it’s been one for 
over a decade now, so I wouldn’t hold my breath on it.

  -- Chris
  -- who was a user of the email system where the creators of MIME developed 
their ideas

OT: RANT (Was: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Fred Cisin 

If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.


 Nobody's going to read that the way that it is formatted.

If they expect people to read it, they will have to punch it up, with 
fonts, colors, background images and textures, formats, animated emojis, 
audio accompaniment, and embedded videos.


How can any message be taken seriously without any dancing kangaroos and 
yodelling jellyfish?
Why is it being disseminated as a text file, instead of as a Youtube 
video?


Surely, the new administration's education policies will bring an end to 
the arrogance of "literates" from insulting the intelligence of the voting 
public of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.



Since there are still a rare few machines without the appropriate 
hardware, smell-o-vision will have to remain optional.
But, the current combined policies at MICROS~1 and Apple of deprecating 
any and all hardare and software more than six months old should fix 
that.   That will also solve the fear that a system might still be in use 
after its printer ink or smell-o-vision supplies are used up.
(microbots in solution in printer ink can complete the process of 
preventing scofflaws from refilling printer ink)


Besides, it is clearly not in the best interests of manufacturing in 
USA^H^H^HChina to permit such legacy relics to be permitted to continue 
to exist.   Delegalization of obsolete computers will be coming soon, 
unfortunately, federal agents have had some difficulty controlling the 
content of the hundreds of machines that have the capability of 
disconnecting from the interweb.   Replacing all NEMA connectors with 
Micro-USB should help.



[MiniTru clarification: The appropriate executive orders were 
issued long ago, when Bill Gates and Steve Jobs invented the first 
computer.]

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Mouse 
>> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length
>> lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.)
> Thatâ??s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one.

If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Chris Hanson 
On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length lines;
> you might want to read RFC 3676.)

That’s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one.

  -- Chris

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Mouse 
> I'm on comcast.net and I get these too.  Once a week or so on average.  The $

(Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length lines;
you might want to read RFC 3676.)

You most likely wouldn't notice unless the bounce traffic got bad
enough to trip some list's auto-suspend test.  Perhaps the other lists
are set less sensitive, or perhaps classiccmp carries more traffic that
gets rejected.  (The latter strikes me as more probable; I'd hazard a
guess that this list holds an usually high proportion of people with
unusual mail setups.)

I've configured my mailer to silently drop mail that it would normally
bounce, when it's mail from either of the lists I'm on that prefer
that.  This is one of them.  Maybe you should do likewise?  (If your
mail is outsourced - it's not clear to me whether "I'm on comcast.net"
means you outsource your mail to them or you just get connectivity
through them - and they aren't willing to do that for you, I guess it's
find a better mailhost to outsource to, stop outsourcing it, or give up
on that idea.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Paul Koning 

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 4:54 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:
> 
> It was thus said that the Great Kyle Owen once stated:
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm on comcast.net and I get these too.  Once a week or so on average.
>>> The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this.  I subscribe to
>>> a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces,
>>> but none of the others are actually getting bounces.
>>> 
>> 
>> I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them
>> that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure.
>> 
>> In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've
>> received them:
>> 21 Oct. 2016
>> 7 Nov. 2016
>> 23 Nov. 2016
>> 29 Nov. 2016
>> 30 Dec. 2016
>> 10 Jan. 2017
>> 14 Jan. 2017
> 
>  This mailing list is unique in that it's actually two, cctalk and cctech. 
> Messages sent to cctech are also copied to cctalk.  So some messages get
> "crossposted" to both lists (with the same Message-ID).  Could that might
> have something to do with this?

In my case, probably not.  I always remove the extraneous to:cctech when 
replying, and only subscribe to cctalk.

paul

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Ian Finder 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 13:13 william degnan  wrote:

> it's not 1999 anymore.


Hey, I can dream, can't I!?
LispMs and VAX 11/750s all over, and cheap!

> --
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Sean Conner 
It was thus said that the Great Kyle Owen once stated:
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'm on comcast.net and I get these too.  Once a week or so on average.
> > The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this.  I subscribe to
> > a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces,
> > but none of the others are actually getting bounces.
> >
> 
> I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them
> that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure.
> 
> In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've
> received them:
> 21 Oct. 2016
> 7 Nov. 2016
> 23 Nov. 2016
> 29 Nov. 2016
> 30 Dec. 2016
> 10 Jan. 2017
> 14 Jan. 2017

  This mailing list is unique in that it's actually two, cctalk and cctech. 
Messages sent to cctech are also copied to cctalk.  So some messages get
"crossposted" to both lists (with the same Message-ID).  Could that might
have something to do with this?

  -spc

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Kyle Owen 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
> I'm on comcast.net and I get these too.  Once a week or so on average.
> The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this.  I subscribe to
> a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces,
> but none of the others are actually getting bounces.
>

I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them
that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure.

In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've
received them:
21 Oct. 2016
7 Nov. 2016
23 Nov. 2016
29 Nov. 2016
30 Dec. 2016
10 Jan. 2017
14 Jan. 2017

Kyle

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Paul Koning 

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 4:13 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> 
>> It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best
>> practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him.
>> ...
> Not sure how you connect the dots to CoreyHouse being the cause of random
> bounce issues ...

I'm on comcast.net and I get these too.  Once a week or so on average.  The 
puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this.  I subscribe to a whole 
pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces, but none of 
the others are actually getting bounces.

paul

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread william degnan 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

> It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best
> practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him.
>
> Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially
> spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't
> remember.
>
> If it keeps up I may just leave. The SNR on this list is trending
> negatively.
>
>
>
Not sure how you connect the dots to CoreyHouse being the cause of random
bounce issues although yes his is one of the ones whose emails get caught
in my spam folder and I never read them, but not the only one.  Personally
I'd fix that kind of thing, not to single ya out CoreyHouse, but don't you
want people to get your messages?  You can host the domain put up a PTR
record, set up the DNS correctly if you want to do it privately there are
many people here who can help.I hardly get any bounce alerts.  Are
there people who get them daily? A GNU mailman list is going to be prone to
this kind of thing, it's not 1999 anymore.

Bill

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Ian Finder 
It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best
practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him.

Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially
spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't
remember.

If it keeps up I may just leave. The SNR on this list is trending
negatively.



On Tuesday, January 31, 2017, geneb  wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
> What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
 sending bounces?

 That's default (and correct) behavior.

>>>
>>>
>> I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so
>> that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still
>> subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly?
>>
>> Essentially, yes.
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread geneb 

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote:


What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
sending bounces?

That's default (and correct) behavior.




I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so
that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still
subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly?


Essentially, yes.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Eric Christopherson 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:30 PM, geneb  wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>>>
>>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
>>>
 reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
 years.

 These are a just the last bounces I got:

 Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the

>>> destination mail server.
>>>
>>> g.
>>>
>>>
>> What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
>> sending bounces?
>>
>> That's default (and correct) behavior.
>

I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so
that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still
subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly?

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread geneb 

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote:


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb  wrote:


On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:

Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been

reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
years.

These are a just the last bounces I got:

Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the

destination mail server.

g.



What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
sending bounces?


That's default (and correct) behavior.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Eric Christopherson 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Eric Christopherson <
echristopher...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>>
>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
>>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
>>> years.
>>>
>>> These are a just the last bounces I got:
>>>
>>> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the
>> destination mail server.
>>
>> g.
>>
>
> What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
> sending bounces?
>

Also: I wonder if the specific causes of Alfred's excessive-bounce
suspension differs from the one that seems to cause mine -- usually when I
get suspended it's just after a certain member posts to the list. Others
have mentioned the same thing. But my suspension messages didn't come on
the same days as Alfred's.

Secondly: if anyone's familiar with the mutt mail client, does the "bounce"
functionality (which is basically a resend of the message, with the
original From: address) have *anything* to do with the sense of "bounce"
we're discussing here? My suspicion is that it doesn't, but I've been
wondering this for a long time.

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Eric Christopherson 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb  wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>
> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
>> years.
>>
>> These are a just the last bounces I got:
>>
>> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the
> destination mail server.
>
> g.
>

What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been
sending bounces?

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread geneb 

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:


Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
years.

These are a just the last bounces I got:

Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the 
destination mail server.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

[cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

2017-01-31 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt 
Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been
reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten
years.

These are a just the last bounces I got:

20-Jan  cctalk-request@classiccmp  [78] confirm 
fd5d1f938a6c920c61c094802694d0194e87f1a4
25-Jan  cctalk-request@classiccmp  [78] confirm 
e01809296377d0fd3033b4ab27394ca7dc0fae71
31-Jan  cctalk-request@classiccmp  [78] confirm 
38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5