Re: Bitsavers size

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/24/2017 5:30 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

On 23 April 2017 at 16:53, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk
 wrote:

Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-)


So what we need to do is calculate the bandwidth of a truck full of
LTO-3 tapes hurtling down a highway, surely?


Trucks only come with bales of hay,babes and a few dusty 8 tracks.
:)

Re: Bitsavers size

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 April 2017 at 16:53, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk
 wrote:
> Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-)

So what we need to do is calculate the bandwidth of a truck full of
LTO-3 tapes hurtling down a highway, surely?


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: Bitsavers size

[Alexander Schreiber via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 05:49:20PM +, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> Ben asks:
> > Just how big is the server?
> > As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
> > common stuff.
> 
> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
> 
> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

Or a single LTO3 cartridge, with room to spare ;-)

Kind regards,
Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: Bitsavers size

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

lör 2017-04-22 klockan 10:13 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk: 
> https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/
> 
> internet V Fedex
> 
> Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth 
> will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't.

Andrew Tanenbaum makes another of those points in his "Computer
Networks" is responsible for another such (this in a ref to a diagram of
the electromagnetical spectrum) :
it should now be obvious why networking people like fiber optics so
much. df/dLambda = -1 * (c / (lambda*lambda))


Which basically says that people who believes wireless
radio-telecommunication can compete against optics in pure thruput is
smoking. 

Re: Bitsavers size

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

Lol that quote. I guess i can google it but was this from one of his books? 
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling 
down the highway."–Andrew Tanenbaum, 1981
 Original message From: Fred Cisin via cctalk 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 4/22/17  12:13 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: "General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: 
Bitsavers size 
https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/

internet V Fedex

Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth 
will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/

internet V Fedex

Unfortunately, their 2040 number is based on an assumption that bandwidth 
will continue to increase, but that media capacity won't.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution
medium?


On Sat, 22 Apr 2017, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

For the record, I have no intention of creating these "more appropriate"
distribution media for anyone.


OK, we'll cancel the project of getting you a farm of ultra-durable card 
punches.  :-)
It was already looking as though there might be difficulty locating 2 
million boxes of blank punch cards. (288G)   Per copy.


Even the just over a million 8" SSSD floppies were back-ordered.

And paper tape would have required opening a new factory.


. . . and we'd have had to build up a fleet of station wagons to hurtle 
down the highway.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 4/22/17 8:22 AM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote:

> But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution
> medium?

For the record, I have no intention of creating these "more appropriate"
distribution media for anyone.

Bitsavers size

[Joseph Zatarski via cctalk]

>Just how big is the server?
>As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's
>for the common stuff.
>Ben.

But wouldn't a nice tape be a much more appropriate distribution
medium? I've got an LTO-3 drive here, and that's 400GB/tape. It'd only
take one tape to hold bitsavers. :)

Re: Bitsavers size

[Alan Frisbie via cctalk]

"Shoppa, Tim" wrote:


The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.


And growing.   I just sent Al a CD with 450 MB of scans of
old obscure IBM manuals from the late 1960s and early 1970s.
One example:
225-3360-1 2030 Processing Unit Field Engineering Theory of Operation
(It describes all the internal operations of the S/360 Model 30.)

So far I have sent him 15 CDs of manual and print set scans,
many of which have not yet appeared online.   This is probably
because he lacks time and resources to do the necessary post
processing of them.

If there is any interest, I can post (or send) a list of the
manuals.

The next batch will be from SEL, GE, Tymshare, and a few other
miscellaneous companies.   After that, it will be all DEC.
If anyone else is scanning DEC manuals, please contact me so
we can coordinate our efforts and avoid duplication.

Alan Frisbie

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Rob Jarratt
 wrote:
>
>
>> > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>> > 4 million miles of paper tape.
>>
>> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
>> there are
>> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
>> 400,000
>> miles.
>>
>
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
> inches
> per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
> calculation.

I think you've made a fencepost error here. There will, indeed be 0.9" between
the centre line of one byte and that of the tenth byte after it. But
you are forgetting
to include the gap on one end of that block (if you see what I mean).

The holes on paper tape (at least the normal 5 level and 8 level
stuff, typesetter
tape may well be different) fall on a 0.1" matrix. I once made an emergency
splicing jig for paper tape using a bit of stripboard with some pins soldered
in. So there are exactly 10 characters per inch on paper tape.


> Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.

True...

-tony

Re: Bitsavers size

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/21/2017 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

Bit savers is only 267 gigs?


Now if you want to archive "PORN are US" that is bit bigger. :)
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>>> 4 million miles of paper tape.
>> 
>> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
>> there are
>> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
>> 400,000
>> miles.
>> 
> 
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
> inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
> calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
>> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 
>> for a
>> megabyte
>> 1 for a gigabyte
>> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
>> approximation
>> 
> 
> 
> 

ASCII correct?  Not Murray, Western Union,Flexowriter or other ?

Anyone care to estimate how large the pile of chads will be?


Jerry  
j...@ieee.org

RE: Bitsavers size

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

Bit savers is only 267 gigs?

On Apr 21, 2017 12:25 PM, "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" 
wrote:

>
>
> > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> > > 4 million miles of paper tape.
> >
> > I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
> there are
> > 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just
> over 400,000
> > miles.
> >
>
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of
> 0.9 inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere
> in my calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
> > My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So
> 10 for a
> > megabyte
> > 1 for a gigabyte
> > 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> > approximation
> >
>
>
>
>

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> > 4 million miles of paper tape.
> 
> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
> there are
> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
> 400,000
> miles.
> 

Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.

Regards

Rob


> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 for 
> a
> megabyte
> 1 for a gigabyte
> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> approximation
> 

RE: Bitsavers size

[Jay West via cctalk]

Alexandre wrote...
--
Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil?
--

I just host the main repository and rsyncd to the mirrors. The site is 100% 
owned and maintained by Al Kossow. So you'd need to ask that question of Al 
as he's the one that decides how many mirrors and where and who.

As I recall - two primary rules are that any mirrors that offer the content 
publicly, must not make any presentation changes. They must mirror the site 
exactly as the original, no changes to the files or presentation. In addition, 
the files all remain as bitsavers files (you cant get a mirror, sync the 
contents, and then say it's all yours and represent it as such, nor add your 
own files to it). Otherwise - no more mirror for you ;)

At least, that's my recollection. Of course, AEK is in charge of all that, I 
just implement what he wishes :)

Questions or comments about this should all be directed to Al via email... his 
baby.

J

Re: Bitsavers size

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tony Duell via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <r...@jarratt.me.uk>
Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; 
"Shoppa, Tim" <tsho...@wmata.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: Bitsavers size


> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt
> <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>>> >
>>> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
>>>
>>> That is not totally ridiculous
>>>
>>> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
>>>
>>> >
>>
>> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>> 4 million miles of paper tape.
> 
> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
> there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I
> get just over 400,000 miles.
> 
> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes
> So 10 for a megabyte
> 1 for a gigabyte
> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> approximation
> 
> -tony

I've got a couple of reels that I can contribute if you don't have quite 
enough...

;-)

Re: Bitsavers size

[Alexandre Souza via cctalk]

Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil?

Here in Sao Paulo we have a network maintained by friends. When we meet, we
all r-sync our secondary backups and when we get home, r-sync the primary
backups. We have many data repositories in safe harbour, and we would be
interested in mirroring bitsavers too.

If it is ok, we can arrange ONE rsync via internet (or HD thru mail) and
share in Brazil.

Thanks
Alexandre

2017-04-20 18:13 GMT-03:00 Yvan Janssens via cctalk :

> At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if
> it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn.
>
> /y
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk  >
> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're
> then
> > down to 6 or 11 platters.
> >
> >
> > What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
> > down the highway?
> >
>

Re: Bitsavers size

[Yvan Janssens via cctalk]

At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if
it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn.

/y
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk"  >
> wrote:
>
>
> I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
> down to 6 or 11 platters.
>
>
> What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
> down the highway?
>

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt
 wrote:
>
>
>> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>> >
>> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
>>
>> That is not totally ridiculous
>>
>> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
>>
>> >
>
> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> 4 million miles of paper tape.

I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I
get just over 400,000 miles.

My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes
So 10 for a megabyte
1 for a gigabyte
2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
approximation

-tony

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 02:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies.


Best to be period-correct.  First 72 columns of an 80-colum punched
card.   Wonder if you could find a card punch that could do the deed
before it broke down.

--Chuck

RE: Bitsavers size

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.


It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies.


Cheapest might be to send it out on a 1/2TB hard disk.

If you worry about survivability of transport abuse,
then it could easily be resent if it arrives destroyed,
OR use a few 2.5" SSDs, 
although those should be copied to spinning rust on receipt,

as their longevity is uncertain.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 02:12 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

> What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs
> hurtling down the highway?


Depends on the destination.  For Tristan da Cunha, I'd say it was zero.

--Chuck

RE: Bitsavers size

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" 
wrote:


I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.


What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
down the highway?

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Shoppa, Tim
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 10:49 AM

> Ben asks:

>> Just how big is the server?

>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the
>> common stuff.

> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring
> Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.

I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.

Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
> >
> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
> 
> That is not totally ridiculous
> 
> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
> 
> >

My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately 4 million miles of 
paper tape.

Regards

Rob

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 10:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner
> Ring Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.


Not to throw a wet blanket on Prof. Schickele's gag, but there *were*
(and still are--Standard Vinyl will cut them for you) 12" 45 RPM LPs.

As a matter of fact, you can occasionally find them offered on eBay.
Somewhere around 15 minutes play per side.

--Chuck

Re: Bitsavers size

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Ben asks:
>> Just how big is the server?
>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
>> common stuff.
> 
> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
> 
> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

Or 6 dual-layer DB disks...

paul

Re: Bitsavers size

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/20/2017 11:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

Ben asks:

Just how big is the server?
As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
common stuff.


The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle 
on convenient 45 RPM records.

Tim N3QE


You mean I can get both! :)
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:
> Ben asks:
>> Just how big is the server?
>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
>> common stuff.
>
> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>
> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

That is not totally ridiculous

Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape

>
> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring
> Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.

Two things are now going through my mind...

Flanders and Swann :
"I've an opera here you shan't escape
On miles and miles of recording tape"
(from 'A song of reproduction')

And Blackadder
"The german reputation for cruelty is well founded
Their operas last several days"

-tony

Bitsavers size

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

Ben asks:
> Just how big is the server?
> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
> common stuff.

The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle 
on convenient 45 RPM records.

Tim N3QE