Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mouse]

>> To name three real uses I've made of [telnet] recently: [...]
> You might find netcat useful.  Not sure if/which distribution has it
> by default.

"Distribution"?  Are you assuming I run Linux?  (I don't, not on my own
machines.  The Pi 3 was for work.)

I have a netcat, one of my own writing.  It works reasonably well for
such things, yes.  However, it is not present everywhere; when there is
a netcat present, its command line requires learning - if I can even
find the documentation for it.  (And assuming there isn't an nc present
that is something completely different.)

Until I ran into that Raspbian, though, telnet had always (a) just been
there and (b) just worked with (c) the same command-line syntax.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 02:13:33PM -0400, Mouse wrote:
> 
> To name three real uses I've made of it recently: to check what a
> remote sshd banners as, to check what an RFB server banners as, and (in
> conjunction with script(1) to capture the output of a one-off server
> set up to transfer a text file (this being the use case I had for it on
> the Pi 3).
> 

You might find netcat useful. Not sure if/which distribution has it by 
default.

/P

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Cameron Kaiser]

> So unless there was only a single *nix machine on campus there would
> be NFS.

When I was a University of California student, the news spool and
(depending on the system) the mail spool were both NFS mounts on the
system I used -- sdcc12 and sdcc13/17, respectively, for any other
UCSD students who want to reminisce.

Some of the freenets used, and still use, NFS for a similar purpose,
and the university I later worked for had a couple Sun systems that
did this for specific departments although it was primarily a NetWare
shop initially.

That said, on my own systems, the only NFS server is set up so it can
be a swap device for the Dreamcast. ;)

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- One can live in Paris ... on just grief and anguish. -- Henry Miller ---

Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[geneb]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Rich Alderson wrote:


If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you
wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was
Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.


Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to


*grabs popcorn*

g.

--
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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 19:12, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
> Cool.  I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring.   But remember
> eventually
> just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet.   One of my
> main clients at
> the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up.
> 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high.
> Another
> vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them
> having to
> ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have
> still
> been used for 16mb) and rewire the place.   Still bugs me to this day, which
> is
> probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)


I saw a few "BrokenString" deployments, but it always was very
expensive, relatively speaking, and except on very heavily-loaded
networks, it was slower, so even at the turn of the '90s, in my world,
it was being replaced by Ethernet unless IBM big iron connectivity was
required.

I've also, just the once, removed an ATM network adaptor from a
desktop PC. Never saw it in real life, but that client had just
returned from Singapore where their home broadband was delivered over
ATM.

-- 
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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 18:15, tony duell  wrote:
>> > * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
>> > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
>>
>> Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...
>
> Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they
> tried to flog them to us :-)

I share your cynicism in general on that point, but this was sold for
_years_ by, IIRC, a little company called EQ Consultants, IIRC.

http://eqc.co.uk/

It was definitely a thing when Ethernet was still too expensive.
Here's a mini-review:

http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue142/70_Getting_wired.php

> I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini
> Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with
> the same bus) had a network option. It was a little
> board that hung off the parallel connector on the
> CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers
> scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes
> to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb
> UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic
> to interface it to the parallel port, a clock
> generator and RS485 buffers.

Interesting. I heard of it, certainly, but I never knew of anyone who
actually used it.

> Of course the common network in UK schools
> in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network
> for the BBC micro, Atom, etc).

I saw quite a few decommissioned machines with Econet adaptors, and
I've seen a demo network set up at a show in the last decade I think,
but I don't think I ever saw one in action.

I did see IEE-488 in use, both on CBM PETs and BBC Micros, in
education -- both for storage and for connecting to lab equipment.


-- 
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Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Liam Proven]

On 15 September 2016 at 01:28, Rich Alderson
 wrote:
> Any decent newsreader or threading mail
> reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.


Would that this were true.

Of course, many would say that Gmail is not a decent MUA; however,
it's the best for my needs these days. Every subject edit creates a
new thread in it, and it's very confusing.

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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Tor Arntsen]

On 15 September 2016 at 11:43, Liam Proven  wrote:
> On 15 September 2016 at 09:30, Tor Arntsen  wrote:

>> A bit like not noticing
>> that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens.
>
> Er. Explain? How can a dumb storage device run any OS?
>
> I have various bootable USB sticks around the place, all with Linux
> on, but they don't _run_ it. I won't touch the "smart Wifi enabled"
> ones.

Sorry, yes, not the dumbest mass-storage ones, but the slightly
smarter ones, e.g. wi-fi enabled sticks and SD cards. I have a couple
of those. On the other hand the electronics of even "simple" USB
gadgets is getting pretty sophisticated, and I wouldn't be at all
surprised if a mass-storage USB stick turns out to actually run an OS.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 15 September 2016 at 09:30, Tor Arntsen  wrote:
> I still find it very strange.

Yes, that was the point of my post!

> So unless there was only a single *nix machine

Virtually every *nix deployment I have ever worked upon, yes, the was
one, single *nix machine in the site/building/company.
Between 2000 and 2005, in most instances, it was an old PC running Smoothwall.

It has always been, in my working life, very very rare.

One AIX box, ever.
One AS/400, ever.
One S/36, ever.
One PDP-11, ever.
I don't think I've ever had a client who had a connect, working Sun
workstation. A handful of servers in 1 job, but I never touched them.

> Back to 2016. In an environment with mixed Unix, Linux and Windows
> computers, the shared documents are simply made available via NFS for
> *nix and Samba for Windows. From the same server(s).

This might surprise you, but in my own home network, I used Samba for
connections from Linux to Linux. It was easier.

> In any case I'm absolutely certain that as far as NFS is concerned
> there couldn't and can't possibly be any difference in usage between
> Europe and the US.

I suspect that there can. That in what I am now told are not SMEs
after all, but "microbusinesses", the bulk of my career, Sun kit was
always just too expensive to be worth it. Windows is utterly, totally
dominant, with these days some Macs and a tiny bit of Linux. Linux is
usually in niche roles, such as firewalls, web proxies, DNS servers or
caches, occasionally as NAS hosts. NFS does not enter into the
equation, at all, ever.

Obviously -- well, it's obvious to me, but I'm spelling it out because
I find that people make assumptions... Obviously, I am not claiming
that my experience is universal or general or applies to anyone else.
Others will have had different experiences.

However, I have had a fairly varied career in IT. I've worked for
VARs, for shops, in repair, in systems design, in sysadmin, in 1st,
2nd & 3rd line support, I've done a smattering of development work
early on, I've worked in training, I've worked for end users, I've
been a consultant, I've been a journalist and an editor and a
technical writer. I've worked for software houses, charities,
government divisions, multinationals, banks, stockbrokers, investment
houses.

I've done a lot of stuff over 28 years in IT.

And I have never seen NFS in use, anywhere, ever.

I guess it figures that the thing I consider massively marginal and
niche is the one that provoked the reaction of surprise and disbelief
that I was actually looking for and trying to cause.

> A bit like not noticing
> that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens.

Er. Explain? How can a dumb storage device run any OS?

I have various bootable USB sticks around the place, all with Linux
on, but they don't _run_ it. I won't touch the "smart Wifi enabled"
ones.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Tor Arntsen]

On 14 September 2016 at 16:51, Liam Proven  wrote:
> On 14 September 2016 at 15:59, Tor Arntsen  wrote:
>> On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven  wrote:
>>
>>> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.
>>
>> A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System?
>>
>> Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our
>> (European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we
>> were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost)
>> without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course.
>
>
> No typo. As far as I know, working in tech since 1988, I have never
> ever seen it used.
>
> All Unix types assume that it is very common. In mixed environments --
> which means more or less every one I've ever worked in -- it isn't.

I still find it very strange. Back in 1988 was probably when I first
got to use a Sun machine, and from 1989 we started using more of them,
but it was certainly a mixed environment - it had to be, we had a lot
of infrastructure from earlier. It took quite a few years until it was
all *nix (and *nux, after a while). The thing is that a Sun machine at
the time more often than not didn't have a disk big enough to keep all
the software (and other files), and/or the sysadm found it difficult
to maintain even a small number of workstations or servers
individually. So at that time it was extremely common to have a lot of
the software accessible via NFS.  In other words, an NFS path was
usually part of the computer user's $PATH.

So unless there was only a single *nix machine on campus there would
be NFS. I saw the same thing in other local companies and in other
European countries, e.g. Italy, which I visited extensively back then.
Companies would have different environments, but most of them would
have a small number of Unix servers and maybe a single workstation,
the rest would be terminals. And later Windows PCs. The small number
of Unix boxes would in any case always use NFS in one way or another.

Back to 2016. In an environment with mixed Unix, Linux and Windows
computers, the shared documents are simply made available via NFS for
*nix and Samba for Windows. From the same server(s). Been that way
forever by now. If there's a single *nix box which needs anything from
somewhere else then NFS is the natural choice, mixed environment or
not.

In any case I'm absolutely certain that as far as NFS is concerned
there couldn't and can't possibly be any difference in usage between
Europe and the US.  I spent so many years travelling between various
sites on both sides of the Atlantic pre- and post-2k, and I never
noticed anything different there. I actually suspect that you *have*
seen NFS in use, you just didn't notice it. A bit like not noticing
that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens. And various other more
or less surprising places.

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Wayne Sudol]

Re: Tacky Ring (what we used to call it) vs Enet.  IIRC one of the issues
going forward with TR was that it was mostly an IBM design (patented?) and
the prices of TR chips available to card manufacturers was pretty high.
This was around 1988.  I think that the reason for the high cost was that
there was not a second source of TR chips available at that time because
IBM had control of it and charged a large license fee for the design. They
also misjudged the demand.

I worked at at a large corporate IBM shop with lots of mainframes and 3270
Terminals. PC's came in grudgingly (IBM PS/2) of course) and we bought
Madge and IRMA cards to get them to talk to the IBMs. Everyone thought of
the PS/2 as cheaper 3270 replacements. I think a 3270 cost about $6000 each
back then. Don't know what the PS/2 cost but it was *much* cheaper.  The
cards (4 mb) were very expensive (@$500) at that time as was the type-1
cabling needed for connection. When 16 mb came out the cost to upgrade was
just too high. Also, the programs that ran on the mainframes started to be
ported to smaller systems that ran something else than TR so it was
apparent that we didn't actually need to spend millions on IBM mainframes
any more.





Wayne Sudol
Riverside PressEnterprise
A DigialFirst Media Newspaper.


On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:12 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
>>> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>>>
>>> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
>>> * Corvus  (saw once)
>>> * ARCnet  (saw many times)
>>> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
>>> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
>>> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>>>(but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)
>>>
>>> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
>>> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
>>> * Personl Netware (never saw)
>>> * Netware Lite(never saw)
>>> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)
>>>
>>> Most frequently worked with:
>>> * Netware 3.x&   4.x
>>> * Lantastic
>>> * Windows / Microsoft
>>>
>>> - J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
>> I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
>> Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
>> intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
>> a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
>> Bill
>>
>
> Cool.  I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring.   But remember
> eventually
> just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet.   One of my
> main clients at
> the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up.
> 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high.
>  Another
> vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them
> having to
> ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have
> still
> been used for 16mb) and rewire the place.   Still bugs me to this day,
> which is
> probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)
>
> - J.
>

Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Eric Smith]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg  wrote:
> Not the standard, but a convention.
>
> The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to
> RFC822).

I think you may mean RFC 5322 section 3.6.5, which does give a "MAY"
suggestion for the use of "Re: " at the start of the contents of the
subject field, but I'm unable to find any mention of the square
bracket or "was" convention for subject line changes within a thread
anywhere in RFC 5322, RFC 822, or even RFC 733.  Aside from the "Re: "
convention, all three RFCs describe the Subject field as unstructured
text, subject to the line folding rules (defined in RFC 5322 section
2.2.3 "Long Header Fields").

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Jerry Kemp]

Banyan Vines - did LOTS of Banyan stuff from the military.  Thousands of end 
users.  Great stuff, but Banyan had no more product marketing skills than IBM 
did with OS/2.  The Banyan NOS stuff ran on top of a SysV Release III Unix if I 
remember correctly.  Its been a while.


ARCnet - saw some of this, not a lot though

ENS StreetTalk - Again from Banyan, IMHO, the first real practical directory 
service.  Even as Banyan Vines (proper) servers were dwindling, we ran 
StreetTalk on top of Solaris boxes.


OS/2 stuff - did more than my fair share of OS/2 stuff.  For file shares 
primarily SMB, but a lot over NFS also.


NFS - really surprised from the OP's comments.  NFS file shares have been the 
"bread-N-butter" of files shares for (me) for over 2 decades


GOSIP - Anyone remember this?  I spent 6 months, 8 hours a day learning 
intricate details about GOSIP in the mid 1990's.  FWIW, this is/was the only 
networking protocol that actually matches up with the OSI 7 layer model.  No, 
TCP/IP doesn't come anywhere close.   Read more here if you are really interested:




IBM System 34 & 36 mini's - got my start here.

I guess we ultimately all have unique experiences.

Unix and (Cisco) core routing and switching has kept a roof over my head since 
the mid 1990's.


I have a number of unique skills that (so far) have kept me employed thru all 
the bad times in the economy, and to provide the leverage to keep employers from 
forcing m$ junk on me.


Jerry
m$ free since '93



On 09/14/16 10:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:



On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan? They
date from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in
1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking, however
disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987.


This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide.

I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on
thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to
multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems
whatsoever running:
* Banyan VINES
* Corvus
* ARCnet
* LittleBigLAN
* The $25 Network

(Obviously, I've heard of them.)

To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

However, I routinely worked with:
* 3Com 3+Share
* Sage MainLAN
* Personal Netware
* Netware Lite
* DEC Pathworks

Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms.

Odd.

Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
characters "was: " prepended.


Not the standard, but a convention.

The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to 
RFC822).  This isn't anything new.  In the Usenet world, nn and trn made 
agressive use of these headers to thread discussion chains.  Any good MUA 
will use them as well.  Note that in the email world, 'popular' and 'good' 
are mostly disjoint sets :-(


--lyndon

changing Subject header in thread [was Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]]

[Eric Smith]

Rich Alderson wrote:
> Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
> change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
> characters "was: " prepended.  Any decent newsreader or threading mail
> reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.  What was
> broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of
> parentheses () for brackets [].

I had no idea that there was a standard. Is it in an RFC or something?

I've commonly seen either parenthesis or square brackets used, and
I've normally used parenthesis myself, but if there's a documented
standard, I'll consider switching.

Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Rich Alderson]

From: Dale H. Cook
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:52 AM

> Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of
> this thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS
> 7.5 still in production use..." When you change a subject line the header
> information concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the
> list archives and some email clients go by. There are now three threads
> concerning different subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org.
> If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you
> wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was
> Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.

Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
characters "was: " prepended.  Any decent newsreader or threading mail
reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.  What was
broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of
parentheses () for brackets [].

See the subject line on this message for an example.

Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Eric Smith]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:
> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

And Fedora (also in RH family).  Not having telnet never bothered me
because "yum install telnet" (now "dnf install telnet") is obvious
enough, but for netstat, ifconfig, and route, you have to install the
"net-tools" package.

Part of the rationale for not installing net-tools by default is that
most users are expected to use the gui NetworkManager to configure
their network. The other part is that ifconfig and route are
deprecated in favor of the "ip" command, which is installed by
default. However, my fingers still are prone typing ifconfig and
route.

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Chuck Guzis]

Earliest networking?  Not telco lines, but hardwired stuff.

I recall that in 1974/75 I was making one of my trips to Control Data
Arden Hills and noticed a backhoe at work digging a trench around the
employee's parking lot in back of the main building.

I asked what was going on and was told that Jim Thornton was
experimenting with high-speed distance networking by laying a couple of
loops of coax around the parking  lot.  Rumor was that he was aiming for
the then-unthinkable speed of 50 Mbit/second.

I don't recall the outcome.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/14/2016 09:24 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote:

> (circling back a bit) Al recommended Fetch; I concur. It was my
> long-term favorite, from MacOS 6.0.8 or earlier onward. Apparently,
> it is still available from the author:

Thanks, Mark.  I also seem to remember reading about "Transmit":

https://download.panic.com/transmit/

However, a USB flash drive turned out to be the simple solution.

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan 
wrote:

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:




I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:

* Banyan VINES(never saw)
* Corvus  (saw once)
* ARCnet  (saw many times)
* LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
* The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
* NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

* 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
* Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
* Personl Netware (never saw)
* Netware Lite(never saw)
* DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

Most frequently worked with:
* Netware 3.x&   4.x
* Lantastic
* Windows / Microsoft

- J.




Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
Bill


Cool.  I was a big fan of running 
Netware over Token Ring.   But remember 
eventually
just getting crushed by cheap and easier 
to install ethernet.   One of my main 
clients at
the time was on 4mb Token, and we were 
asked for a proposal to speed it up.
16mb Token Ring had just come out, and 
the per-card cost was very high.   Another
vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and 
stole the client... despite them having to
ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb 
Token setup (whose wiring could have still
been used for 16mb) and rewire the 
place.   Still bugs me to this day, which is

probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)

- J.

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Dale H. Cook]

At 11:56 AM 9/14/2016, js wrote:

>On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

Folks -

Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of this 
thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still 
in production use..." When you change a subject line the header information 
concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the list archives and 
some email clients go by. There are now three threads concerning different 
subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org. If you want to change a 
subject please start a new thread, and if you wish you can give the new thread 
a subject line such as "New Subject (was Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.

Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Fred Cisin]

Orchid PC-Net

Tallgrass

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Tapley, Mark]

Chuck,
(circling back a bit) Al recommended Fetch; I concur. It was my 
long-term favorite, from MacOS 6.0.8 or earlier onward.
Apparently, it is still available from the author:

https://fetchsoftworks.com/

But licenses are now $29. It is still possible according to the website 
to get a free license for charitable or educational organizations.
It also appears to be possible to download a version for classic back 
to System 7 (Downloads page)
I was *very* satisfied with it back in the day, have not used it since 
about Mac OS 8.6, possibly 9.1, on my Powerbook 3400. 

- Mark
210-522-6025 office 
210-379-4635cell


On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:35 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9,

RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[tony duell]

> > * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
> 
> Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...

Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they
tried to flog them to us :-)

> I never saw CP/M networked in my life.

I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini
Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with
the same bus) had a network option. It was a little
board that hung off the parallel connector on the
CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers
scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes 
to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb
UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic
to interface it to the parallel port, a clock
generator and RS485 buffers.

Wasn't there some kind of network for the
RML380Z and 480Z machines?

Of course the common network in UK schools
in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network 
for the BBC micro, Atom, etc).

-tony

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 17:56, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>
> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
> * Corvus  (saw once)
> * ARCnet  (saw many times)

I honestly don't know what cabling SAGE MainLAN used. It may have been
related. D9 connectors, about 4Mb/s speed?

> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)

Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...

> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

I put in a load of Xenix and later some SCO Unix boxes running
multiuser accounts, often replacing CCP/M and CDOS systems -- but they
were never networked.

I never saw CP/M networked in my life.

> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)

Weird. Quite a big product in the UK in the '80s.

> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)

SAGE -- British accountancy s/w company. US tax law is different;
Brits can't use US financial or accounts s/w. Gave an opening for UK
players to get big.

> * Personl Netware (never saw)

Typo for "Personal" of course.

Wasn't big here.

> * Netware Lite(never saw)

Ditto.

One of 'em was bundled with Novell DOS 6 or 7. I forget which. That
gave it a boost but it was a PITA to configure. Already, by then,
people were mainly shipping NDIS drivers for WfWg which _did_ work but
in a painful way and wasted a ton of RAM.

> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

It wasn't big but a lot of VAX users ran it. It bundled a ton of
useful stuff from email to X.11 servers, but it was as slow as hell,
burned RAM and was a pig to configure. Never played nice with WfWg.

> Most frequently worked with:
> * Netware 3.x&  4.x

2 and 3 here. 4 was the beginning of the end.  It foisted mandatory
NDS on a million single-served microbusinesses who had no need for it,
and the needless complexity and pain killed the product. Most
egregious case of corporate suicide I ever saw.

> * Lantastic

I forgot that. I think I saw that very occasionally.

> * Windows / Microsoft

Well, yes.


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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[william degnan]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
>
> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>
> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
> * Corvus  (saw once)
> * ARCnet  (saw many times)
> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)
>
> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
> * Personl Netware (never saw)
> * Netware Lite(never saw)
> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)
>
> Most frequently worked with:
> * Netware 3.x&  4.x
> * Lantastic
> * Windows / Microsoft
>
> - J.
>
>
>
Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
Bill

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan? They date 
from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in 1984. 
Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking, however disorganized, 
was a very hot thing by 1987.


This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide.

I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on
thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to
multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems
whatsoever running:
* Banyan VINES
* Corvus
* ARCnet
* LittleBigLAN
* The $25 Network

(Obviously, I've heard of them.)

To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

However, I routinely worked with:
* 3Com 3+Share
* Sage MainLAN
* Personal Netware
* Netware Lite
* DEC Pathworks

Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms.

Odd.



I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, USA), 
same number and types of places.  Just to compare:

* Banyan VINES(never saw)
* Corvus  (saw once)
* ARCnet  (saw many times)
* LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
* The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
* NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
  (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

* 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
* Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
* Personl Netware (never saw)
* Netware Lite(never saw)
* DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

Most frequently worked with:
* Netware 3.x&  4.x
* Lantastic
* Windows / Microsoft

- J.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 15:59, Tor Arntsen  wrote:
> On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven  wrote:
>
>> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.
>
> A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System?
>
> Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our
> (European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we
> were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost)
> without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course.


No typo. As far as I know, working in tech since 1988, I have never
ever seen it used.

All Unix types assume that it is very common. In mixed environments --
which means more or less every one I've ever worked in -- it isn't.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Tor Arntsen]

On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven  wrote:

> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System?

Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our
(European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we
were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost)
without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> CP/Net.  I don't know if Novell ever deployed their RS-422 networking
> with CP/M-86 however.
>
> There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan?
> They date from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for
> PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking,
> however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987.


This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide.

I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on
thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to
multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems
whatsoever running:
* Banyan VINES
* Corvus
* ARCnet
* LittleBigLAN
* The $25 Network

(Obviously, I've heard of them.)

To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

However, I routinely worked with:
* 3Com 3+Share
* Sage MainLAN
* Personal Netware
* Netware Lite
* DEC Pathworks

Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms.

Odd.


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 01:40:40AM +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
> Stupid question: it's not called ``perl5'' or something now, as Perl 6
> is *finally* out?

About a zillion lines of software expect it to be called "perl".

And perl6 has been imminent for ... some time.  FreeBSD shows 5394 ports
listed in the "perl5" category, approximately a dozen of which reference
perl6 in their names.

In other words, I'll believe it when I see it :-)  There's an awful lot
of intertia behind perl5.

mcl

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:48:00AM +0200, Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare) 
wrote:
> I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install.

Yeah, well ... about that :-(

I understand the reasoning behind it.  At one time FreeBSD had perl in
the base.  The problem was the support cycle.  At some point you had a
supported release that you had to keep going with an unsupported perl --
the perl development moves that much faster.

The argument over "what is in the default install" continues within
FreeBSD to this day, as I'm sure it does in every software project.
There's no perfect solution.

mcl

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 09:29:30AM +0200, Peter Corlett wrote:
> Never mind that trying to get their alleged "support" to actually fix
> anything is like pissing into the wind.

As opposed to major vendors such as Microsoft and Oracle? ;-)

mcl

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Peter Corlett]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 12:44:39PM -0500, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
[...]
> Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?

No, they're "legacy", i.e. do not support DeadRat's aims of creating an
inscrutable proprietary platform where one is more or less compelled to buy a
support contract to be able to use it. Never mind that trying to get their
alleged "support" to actually fix anything is like pissing into the wind. Their
Perl packages are particularly awful and not fit for purpose.

Debian adopting systemd was what finally pushed me over the edge into the BSD
camp. The rot had been setting in for years before that, though.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 04:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

> Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly
> add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think
> the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time.
> Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for
> DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic
> about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite
> or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk;
> etc.
>
CP/Net.  I don't know if Novell ever deployed their RS-422 networking
with CP/M-86 however.

There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan?
They date from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for
PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking,
however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987.

--Chuck

Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 
7.5 still in production use...))


> 
> 
> On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> 
>> How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do 
>> you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but 
>> I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway..
>> 
>> They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but 
>> with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core 
>> between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-)
>> 
> 
> documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be 
> great!
> 
> I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped.
> 
==
As a matter of fact I think one of them in fact emulates an HP 
264-something-or-other.

Some models were also used in some DEC shops as cheap VT100 and VT220 clones.

Don't hold your breath, but it's on the list...

m

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 20:58, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here?
>
> As I said, Mac OS 9.2.  I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other
> Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble.

Ah, I guess I missed that earlier. Sorry.

> But isn't that typical of the Apple Way?

What I was getting at is that it was typical of _everyone's_ way back
in the '80s.

Everyone who did a full-stack OS had their own network stack and their
own protocol, and it was supported far better than anything else.

>  Right from the start, there
> were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world.

But it had a whole choice of OSes and most of them didn't include
networking at all in the early days, AFAIK. IBM's big iron networking
wouldn't have fitted into the RAM of the original PC.

Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly
add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think
the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time.
Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for
DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic
about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite
or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk;
etc.

All, as I said, intended to talk to some other proprietary system.
Openness? No, we haven't even heard of it.

> Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the
> announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac?

As others have said -- yes, it existed, albeit from 3rd party tools.


-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 00:48, Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare)
 wrote:
> I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install.

I didn't know about that. It does surprise me.

Stupid question: it's not called ``perl5'' or something now, as Perl 6
is *finally* out?

> The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with
> kickstart files is ... unsatisfying.

Never tried that.

> So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual
> machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The
> trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical
> chip.

I have found CentOS a PITA in VMware, I can concur there.


-- 
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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Al Kossow]

On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote:

> How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you 
> want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I 
> guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway..
> 
> They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but 
> with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core 
> between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-)
> 

documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be great!

I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped.

Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production 
use...)


> 
> 
> On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> 
>> If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX 
>> keyswitches, then you  have a lot of freedom.
> 
> True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry 
> keyboards to harvest keytops.
> About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so 
> i'll probably just go with
> that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the 
> mechanical collectors.
> 
> Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and 
> voltages, Qume.. not at all.
> I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards 
> using either 12 or 5 volt power.
> 
> Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ...
> 
===
How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you 
want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I 
guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway..

They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but with 
non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core between 
pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-)

m

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 03:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales.

Around 1984, we leased a VAX 11/750 running BSD with the understanding
from the lessor that the desired configuration was to support HASP via a
Bell 209 modem and leased-line.

We got the leased line, the modem connected fine, but the promised BSD
software didn't work.  Berkeley Systems was called in and they couldn't
get it to work either.

Eventually, I think we just hooked up a 5160 with the necessary support.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Stefan Skoglund (lokal]

tis 2016-09-13 klockan 10:43 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: 
> 
> Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and
> booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within
> reasonable limits.  But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of
> the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time
> to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me.
> 

Which is how it is done in Linux today - if the system clock is to much
off ntpd won't touch it.
What would happen if the selected ntp server which ntpd wants is cracked
and intentionally serving false time ?

For ntpd it is a security feature that it won't change a system time
which is badly out of sync.
ntp is intentionally designed so that it will only change system time
gradually.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Stefan Skoglund (lokal]

tis 2016-09-13 klockan 19:31 +0200 skrev Liam Proven: 
> On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:
> > See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.
> 
> My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me
> fired from Red Hat.
> 
> Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff
> from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and
> move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever
> -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin
> were quicker to imitate.
> 
> Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and
> other such steps.
> 

I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install.

The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with
kickstart files is ... unsatisfying.

So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual
machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The
trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical
chip.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/13/16 3:08 PM, jim stephens wrote:

> There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming pile, 
> and very few ever got that to work other
> than  IBM.

I worked with the guy who did the Nubus token ring card. He originally used the 
TI chip set, then had to switch to IBM's
because TI's didn't work thanks to undocumented stuff in IBM's implementation. 
Apple's LU 6.2 was no fun at all.

Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[jim stephens]

On 9/13/2016 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:




Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s,
along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet
package. And MacTCP was available early on, too.

Does bisync and HASP, does it?

--Chuck
Those would not have  been much use.  If they could do IND$FILE 
uploading and downloading that was usually what a connected device 
needed to do.  The bisync required either a dedicated comm program of 
some sort, and HASP was usually a shared resource.


I don't think Apple though of much money to be made doing the server 
type functions of either of those.


There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming 
pile, and very few ever got that to work other than  IBM. In the case 
where I worked on a project with it, the IBM side was never made to work.


thanks
Jim

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

There were nubus IRMA cards for 3270 fans
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290443334905

and the Apple Cluster Controller

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/brochures/Apple_Cluster_Controller_and_Appleline_Sales_Reference_Guide_Jul84.pdf

I'm sure these were checkbox items.
There was a push in the late 80's buy the Networking and Communications group
for better connectivity, mainly to get penetration into corporations.


On 9/13/16 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Does bisync and HASP, does it?
>

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:



> Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s,
> along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet
> package. And MacTCP was available early on, too.

Does bisync and HASP, does it?

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chris Hanson]

On Sep 13, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> 
>> There was SNAps:
> 
> And it only took them until 1993!

Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, along with 
the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet package. And MacTCP 
was available early on, too.

> While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has
> always gotten short shrift.


This is pretty much a myth. It was actually not very long after Jobs’ ouster 
that Apple started to work on expandable Macs, integration with other systems, 
etc.

  -- Chris

Re: No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Ryan K. Brooks]

Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for 
deployment.


--Toby

(who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package 
for telnet client)



I get that none of thius applies to modern devops, but sometimes crap 
goes wrong, or you're working on a host (RHEL w/ KVM is compelling) for 
a shop that would go looking for tupperware if you mentioned a container.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:

> There was SNAps:
> 
> http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363
>
>  
> https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEMBAJ=PA70=PA70=apple+snaps+5250=bl=hpcJE58XPO=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA=en=X=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage=apple%20snaps%205250=false

And it only took them until 1993!

While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has
always gotten short shrift.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[jim stephens]

On 9/13/2016 10:00 AM, Al Kossow wrote:


On 9/13/16 9:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:


See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

csh

though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols
aren't shipped out of the box
They can be added, and it was only after quite a long time of warning 
that telnet was not a safe protocol as Al says that the steps were taken 
to remove it.  And sshd is removed on a lot of distributions, so that 
avenue of attack is not present out of the box.   It is secure over the 
net, but if default passwords exist, and sshd is there, and not set up 
to deny remote logins of certain id's you have as big a problem


Of course with the means to create a distro a week, you can create a 
clone of any distribution with telnet and telnetd any time you like.


thanks
Jim

No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-09-13 1:44 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:



On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:

See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me
fired from Red Hat.

Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff
from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and
move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever
-- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin
were quicker to imitate.


Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a
case could be made for traceroute)   These types of changes to the core
of userland are epic dumb IMHO.   Telnet is very useful for debugging,
and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.






Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for 
deployment.


--Toby

(who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package 
for telnet client)

Re: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Christian Liendo]

I am well aware.. However not everything has netcat. But many things
have a simple telnet client.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated:
>> Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response.
>> Do it a lot.
>
>   The kids are using nc (netcat) these days.  It supports both TCP and UDP.
>
>   -spc
>

Custom mechanical keyboard PCB - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-09-13 12:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:



On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow  wrote:

Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for
Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 
style)
so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you 
can't
even make a practical replacement.



I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 
Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat 
practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the 
keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the 
case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths 
of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come 
up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable.

If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX 
keyswitches, then you  have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to 
limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit.



Maybe you can get some ideas from this (somewhat tasteless) project?

https://hackaday.io/project/13210-the-fsociety-keyboard

--Toby

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Brendan Shanks]

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> But isn't that typical of the Apple Way?  Right from the start, there
> were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world.
> Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the
> announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac?

There was SNAps:

http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363

https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEMBAJ=PA70=PA70=apple+snaps+5250=bl=hpcJE58XPO=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA=en=X=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage=apple%20snaps%205250=false

Re: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated:
> Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response.
> Do it a lot.

  The kids are using nc (netcat) these days.  It supports both TCP and UDP.  

  -spc

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here?

As I said, Mac OS 9.2.  I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other
Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble.

> That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes
> serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/
> to it was a bit easier.

But isn't that typical of the Apple Way?  Right from the start, there
were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world.
Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the
announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac?

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 11:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a
> telnetd. It's inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for
> encryption on this network when I'm the sole user.

Exactly so--I'm interested in communication between local systems used
by myself.  No need for security.  In fact, most of my systems don't use
passwords for login.  Why?  When I'm the only one using them, demanding
the use of passwords and encryption is pure insanity.

I have enough of a problem remembering the host names of the various boxes.

I might as well install cipher locks on all the interior doors of my
house.  It wouldn't make me one bit more secure--just frustrated with
the useless effort.

--Chuck

Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Christian Liendo]

Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response.
Do it a lot.

> Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a case
> could be made for traceroute)   These types of changes to the core of
> userland are epic dumb IMHO.   Telnet is very useful for debugging, and
> certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > But what I originally stated still holds.   Perhaps you don't have
> > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents,
> 
> There is no ssh equivalent to telnet (the command).  It sounds to me as
> though you are thinking of telnet, the command, as nothing but an
> interface to telnet, the remote login protocol.  That is far from its
> only use; indeed, these days, that isn't much of a use at all.  I can't
> recall the last time I saw a machine running a telnet daemon even on an
> isolated intranet.

Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a telnetd. It's
inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for encryption on this
network when I'm the sole user.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Cameron Kaiser]

> >> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.
> > csh
> 
> Possibly.  I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are
> almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors.

I end up building tcsh on just about any new system I bring up. I've
just expected it won't be there.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 19:44, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:
> Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?

Well, OK, no, not that I know of!

>  (Maybe a case
> could be made for traceroute)

Wouldn't know.

But AIUI the new ``ip'' command subsumes a lot of this stuff. I'm not
very au fait with it but it was high time -- it was due for some
rationalisation.

> These types of changes to the core of
> userland are epic dumb IMHO.

Why? Seriously?

>   Telnet is very useful for debugging, and
> certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.

So add it back if you need it.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mouse]

>> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.
> csh

Possibly.  I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are
almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors.

> though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't
> shipped out of the box

If you think of telnet, the program, as strictly an interface to
telnet, the remote login protocol, then I can see how you might think
it reasonable to drop it.

But telnet-the-program hasn't been just that for...decades, at the very
least.  Every telnet I can recall, clear back to the days (circa
4.2BSD) when my wetware memory isn't reliable any longer, accepted a
port number and was extremely useful for dealing with any of various
possible networking issues.

To name three real uses I've made of it recently: to check what a
remote sshd banners as, to check what an RFB server banners as, and (in
conjunction with script(1) to capture the output of a one-off server
set up to transfer a text file (this being the use case I had for it on
the Pi 3).

netstat, that's a completely different issue.  There's no "clear text
protocol" issue there.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 19:50, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> But what I originally stated still holds.   Perhaps you don't have
> plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least
> you have *something* to get the job done.  Mac OS gave me nothing for
> doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections.


OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here?

If classic MacOS, no, probably not, but there were tons of 3rd party
tools, many of them free or shareware. In the Classic era, TCP/IP was
a bit of a bolt-on extra on MacOS -- AppleTalk was necessary for most
real networking with other Macs.

That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes
serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/
to it was a bit easier.

Similar to TCP's status on Novell Netware 2/3/4, or early VMS, or
early IBM mini/mainframe stuff from what I've heard. Even to Windows 3
and WfWg. That was the era of proprietary protocols, and every vendor
had their own.

First, gradually, TCP/IP got added, often as a token gesture with
severe caveats and restrictions. Later versions of most of them
integrated it properly, then in subsequent versions, the
proprietary-protocol support gradually got ripped out.

In the late '80s or early-mid '90s, to me, TCP was the Unix protocol,
and since I didn't use much Unix, it was an alien outcast in a world
of AppleTalk, NetBEUI, IPX/SPX and DECnet. Most of my work involved
getting Windows to talk several of these at once so it could both talk
to other Windows boxes and to some alien kit at the same time... early
on, ideally while still having enough memory to do anything useful.

 TCP didn't figure at all until post-'96, when the WWW suddenly
started to be something people wanted. For the next 5y or so, my
networks ran NetBEUI or IPX for workstation-workstation and
workstation-server comms, and TCP just to talk to the proxy/email
server and thus to the outside world.

By the early noughties, Smoothwall came in and made Windows proxy
servers a thing of the past. Around the same time my clients started
switching to broadband, and soon, I ripped out all the proprietary
protocols. Soon after, Mac OS X did the same.

By about 2005 or so most things were pure TCP.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 10:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff 
> from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme
> and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command,
> whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and
> its kin were quicker to imitate.

Well, the packages *should* be available for installation, if desired.
There are various back doors to linux-embedded appliances (mostly using
BusyBox) that employ telnet and ftp and they're not likely to implement ssh.

OpenBSD is probably the most draconian in this respect.  They don't
offer an optional ftpd/telnetd in any package.   If you want a cleartext
server, you have to find the source, modify and re-compile it yourself.

But what I originally stated still holds.   Perhaps you don't have
plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least
you have *something* to get the job done.  Mac OS gave me nothing for
doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Ryan K. Brooks]

On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:

See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me
fired from Red Hat.

Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff
from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and
move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever
-- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin
were quicker to imitate.

Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a 
case could be made for traceroute)   These types of changes to the core 
of userland are epic dumb IMHO.   Telnet is very useful for debugging, 
and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 09:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> yea.. another project. Getting an Apple 20 pin drive working with a
> flux transition reader.

Not that much of an issue--after all, the old CopyIIPC deluxe option
board came with a bunch of 400K/800K Mac utilities and uses standard
drives.   I might have used that, but the system was buried at the
bottom of a pile and I wanted to preserve the Apple file structure as
much as was possible, not translate it into MS-DOS.

> The one example that directly involved me was I asked them to support
> NTP internally on the engineering network, so I didn't have to set
> the clock constantly (I had a prototype machine with an RTC that ran
> fast). Around 1997 at the peak of the "dark times" an email (which
> was FINALLY SMTP and not some stupidity like AppleLink) went out that
> there was no budget to maintain the NTP server any more. Fortunately,
> the NeXT purchase of Apple happened, the people that groked Unix came
> in, and that bit of stupidity was killed.

Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and
booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within
reasonable limits.  But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of
the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time
to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 18:16, Al Kossow  wrote:
> This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-)


Well, it's true, I was amassing collection since then. I have, I
think, enough Apple, IBM and DEC keyboards to last my lifetime.

I tried to adapt to the Sun layout -- as evangelised by my friend
Stephane Tsacas, who I met via this list -- mainly for a giggle. There
is stuff to like about it, but for me, the feel of the switches is
more important than the layout. I favour the classic DEC/IBM layout --
with a Compose key -- but I'm happy enough on laptop keyboards, too.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 18:58, Al Kossow  wrote:
> I would be very surprised if much effort was put into making floppies work
> under OS X


As far as I know, legacy floppies on a SWIM or whatever are not and
never have been supported at all.

However, USB floppies work fine -- but only for standard disk formats.
You can't read/write old Mac 400/800kB disks in 'em.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 18:51, Mouse  wrote:
> That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3
> that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet.


Because it's insecure. OpenSSH is the recommendation these days.

But if you need it, it's trivial to add it back.

-- 
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks  wrote:
> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me
fired from Red Hat.

Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff
from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and
move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever
-- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin
were quicker to imitate.

Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and
other such steps.

-- 
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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
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Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9
> 
> As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well.
> 
> I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based
> server which no longer supports the old protocol.

I keep a Sawtooth G4 running 10.4 for file server tasks. It talks to
almost anything on the network. However, the LocalTalk machines have to
talk to the NetBSD IIci, which still runs an old enough NetBSD where
the old AppleTalk protocols work properly (over a Dayna EtherPrint-T),
and NFSes to whatever mount it needs to "mirror."

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Ryan K. Brooks]

On 9/13/16 11:51 AM, Mouse wrote:

What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP
networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of
the package, [...]

That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3
that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet.

See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

It may have gotten lost in the pre-move chaos. I just pinged him about
it again.


On 9/13/16 9:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow"  wrote:
>>
>> I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from
> microprocessor
>> based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are
> disappearing
>> the same way CRT monitors have.
> 
> Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here?
> 
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4
> 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mouse]

> What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP
> networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of
> the package, [...]

That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3
that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/13/2016 09:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

>> After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9
> 
> As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well.

After I'd done the job, I found out that MacSSH is available at SourceForge.

What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP
networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of
the package,  I mean, in addition to every version of *nix supplying it,
ftp has been a standard MS offering since MSLANMAN.  But clearly, I'll
never get used to the Apple Way.

I'd mostly run the G3 under OS X 10.4 using XPostFacto, but I don't
believe that the combo supports the old 400K and 800K floppy formats.  I
could have booted the G3 into OS X after I'd done the reading under OS
9.2, but that seemed to be the long way 'round the problem.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Glen Slick]

On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow"  wrote:
>
> I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from
microprocessor
> based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are
disappearing
> the same way CRT monitors have.

Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here?

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:

> If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX 
> keyswitches, then you  have a lot of freedom.

True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry keyboards 
to harvest keytops.
About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so i'll 
probably just go with
that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the 
mechanical collectors.

Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and 
voltages, Qume.. not at all.
I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards using 
either 12 or 5 volt power.

Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ...

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops 
> for
> Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 
> style)
> so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you 
> can't
> even make a practical replacement.
> 

I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 
Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat 
practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the 
keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the 
case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths 
of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come 
up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable.

If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX 
keyswitches, then you  have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to 
limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/12/16 11:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9

As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well.

I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based
server which no longer supports the old protocol. There was a company
that sold a package that put the protocol back, but they have gone
out of business, so I've been bouncing it through a FreeNAS server,
which still works, but AFP support is kinda klunky (never liked AppleDouble
very much..)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/13/16 6:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that
> they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-)
>

This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-)

I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from microprocessor
based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are 
disappearing
the same way CRT monitors have. Besides the surviving examples looking like
they have been stored in a cow barn for 20 years, they (almost) never come with
a keyboard if it was detachable. This is bad enough that I've been thinking of
building a serial protocol converter for Televideo and Qume terminals for Wyse
keyboards, which you can still find for a painful but not absurdly high price.

Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for
Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 
style)
so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you 
can't
even make a practical replacement.

I did do the Snoopy Dance this weekend, though, when I found an Esprit at the 
flea
market for $20. Pics and firmware dumps up on bitsavers under hazeltine/esprit 
now.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 02:32, Richard Loken  wrote:
> My Mac Mini has been treated to new modern keyboard purchased at rediculous
> expense upon the recommendation of my long time friend G.L.Nerenberg II.
> And it says underneath "WASD Model: V2 Type: Cherry MX Green".  It is
> gloriously noisy!

:-)

One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that
they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-)

> I have an aluminum Apple keyboard in the box this keyboard came out of,
> those Apple chicklet keyboard are just plain horrible.

They're the best chicklet keyboards out there -- but I agree with you;
I really dislike using them.


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/12/2016 02:10 PM, Richard Loken wrote:


> And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant
> $3,000.00 can of tomato juice.  Not much changes.
> 
> Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini (third if you count my wife's) 
> because i really like the mac mini so I probably would have bought
> the cube if I had been in the market for a mac at that time.

Too new!  This past week, I used a beige G3 to recover a pile of 800K
Mac floppies.  The only one I couldn't read turned out to be a PC
formatted 720K disk.

After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9, I
stuffit-ed the disks up and transfered them to a USB flash drive and
sneakernet-ed it over to the Linux box.

--Chuck

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[George Rachor]

I remember my wife spending hours playing BUGDOM on it … 

George

> On Sep 12, 2016, at 1:15 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person
> I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial
> design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that
> way.
> 
> 
> On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 They make nice Kleenex dispensers.
 
 
>>> 
>>> http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Why, why, why? sheesh.
>> 
> 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Richard Loken]

Mark, I strongly support the addition of Oscar to your Mac Pro.

--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Richard Loken]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Liam Proven wrote:


Whereas my Mac mini has 3rd party RAM and both an SSD and an HD
(upgrades from a Toshiba desktop-replacement notebook that the Mac
replaced) on a 3rd party bracket, and I'm using a Dell 5-button mouse
and an Apple Extended keyboard from '97 or so, on a 3rd-party ADB-USB
adaptor. And a pair of mismatched 2nd hand 23" LCDs.

...

And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a
proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-)


My Mac Mini has been treated to new modern keyboard purchased at 
rediculous expense upon the recommendation of my long time friend 
G.L.Nerenberg II.  And it says underneath "WASD Model: V2 Type: Cherry MX 
Green".  It is gloriously noisy!


I have an aluminum Apple keyboard in the box this keyboard came out of,
those Apple chicklet keyboard are just plain horrible.

--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 13 September 2016 at 01:21, Fred Cisin  wrote:
>
> well, . . .
> you should put a microphone into an old mouse, and start designing
> transparent aluminum panels.


Heh. :-)

It's rather odd. I have, or have had, a number of hobbies over the
years, and most have been odd enough that I never knew anyone else
into them. The closest I've ever come to popular pastimes were things
like being into recumbent bicycles or motor trikes -- pretty niche
activities.

(Oh, and retrocomputing and you lot, natch.)

But vintage mechanical keyboards are a thing of which I'm very fond. I
specifically brought my cleanest IBM Model M with me when I moved
countries, and later, when I bought this Mac mini, I went back to
London and dug out an Apple Extended II and my ADB convertor.

Now, though, vintage keyboard fancying is a big thing, and there are
multiple websites devoted to it. For example, in re my current
keyboard:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Extended_Keyboard

http://lowendmac.com/2006/the-legendary-apple-extended-keyboard/

And there are compare-and-contrast pieces:

https://www.wired.com/2008/05/a-tale-of-two-k/

For me, this feels positively mainstream. At both my office jobs over
here in Czechia, people came over to see what I was typing on, to feel
it and try it.

It's most disconcerting.


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Liam Proven wrote:

And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a
proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-)


well, . . .
you should put a microphone into an old mouse, and start designing 
transparent aluminum panels.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Liam Proven]

On 12 September 2016 at 23:10, Richard Loken  wrote:
> Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini


Actually, now that you come to mention it, so am I. I had -- have -- a
G4 as well as the Core i5 I'm typing on. It was never my main machine,
though.

The thing I like about the minis, I guess, is that I have free choice
of display, keyboard and mouse. I like iMacs -- I have a dead G5, too
-- but they're not very expandable and if they die you can't reuse the
screen.

Whereas my Mac mini has 3rd party RAM and both an SSD and an HD
(upgrades from a Toshiba desktop-replacement notebook that the Mac
replaced) on a 3rd party bracket, and I'm using a Dell 5-button mouse
and an Apple Extended keyboard from '97 or so, on a 3rd-party ADB-USB
adaptor. And a pair of mismatched 2nd hand 23" LCDs.

All cheap, all used and repurposed. I don't like Apple's modern
keyboards, mice, trackpads etc., so if I bought a new iPad, they'd be
effectively wasted. The Retina iMac has a lovely screen, but it's also
jolly expensive and these sub-$100 used items are good enough.

Small, cheap, quiet, does the job.

And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a
proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-)

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[j...@cimmeri.com]

Why in your opinion was it a failed 
experiment?


I had one and liked it very much.

- J.


On 9/12/2016 3:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person
I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial
design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that
way.


On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:


They make nice Kleenex dispensers.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:10 , Richard Loken  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
>> Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person
>> I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial
>> design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that
>> way.
> 
> And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant $3,000.00
> can of tomato juice.  Not much changes.

I think it looks more like a trash can, or perhaps a flower pot. I'd like a 
nice Oscar the Grouch doll to install in the top vent of mine.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Richard Loken]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Al Kossow wrote:


Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person
I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial
design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that
way.


And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant $3,000.00
can of tomato juice.  Not much changes.

Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini (third if you count my wife's)
because i really like the mac mini so I probably would have bought the
cube if I had been in the market for a mac at that time.

--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person
I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial
design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that
way.


On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> They make nice Kleenex dispensers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/
>>
>>
>>
> Why, why, why? sheesh.
> 

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Geoffrey Oltmans]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
>
>
> >
> > They make nice Kleenex dispensers.
> >
> >
>
> http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/
>
>
>
Why, why, why? sheesh.

Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/12/16 9:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 9/11/16 11:23 PM, Brad H wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Definitely want one for my collection.  Probably not too expensive now.
>>
> 
> They make nice Kleenex dispensers.
> 
> 

http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/

G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Al Kossow]

On 9/11/16 11:23 PM, Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> Definitely want one for my collection.  Probably not too expensive now.
> 

They make nice Kleenex dispensers.