Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 04/02/2019 09:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder Not only that, they are marked with the machine serial number, and are specific to that machine. So, any ECOs, or hardware options present in that machine will be shown on the schematics. There will be several other manuals in the set that are not specifically "ALD"s, but are part of the set, such as microcode listings and FLT (Fault Location Test) manuals that reflect ECOs and options. Jon
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 04/01/2019 09:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: can you show me an example? I think this may actually be a section of the "ALD"s for a model /50: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/2050_Vol18_Sep72.pdf And, this one has pretty detailed info on the microcode flow, listing of operations, etc. (This may be what the OP was already working with.) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/Z22-2833-R_2050_Processing_Unit_Field_Engineering_Diagram_Manual_Jul66.pdf This whole area of bitsavers is well hidden, but has a wealth of hardware information: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/ Jon
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I > have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general > hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
As Paul said. ALDs are schematics down to the gate level basically. Necessary to make a gate exact emulation, or debug and maintain a real machine. Used to be sent with each and every machine, but sadly not often preserved apparently. Fortunately our IBM 1401’s came with their ALDs. We refer to them every time so something goes wrong. Marc > On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: > > >> On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Marc said Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. >>> Anyone has them? Marc >>> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 >>> ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only >>> saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book >>> covering. >>> I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's >>> not much there. A while ago I did scan a >>> tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley >>> https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 >>> >>> Steve. >>> >> What does ALD stand for? >> Bill > > Automated Logic Diagramthey are logic diagrams that where printed on 1403 > printer with a special print train. > > Paul. >
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 10:29 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Marc said > >>> Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. > >> Anyone has them? > >>> Marc > >> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the > 2040 > >> ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only > >> saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book > >> covering. > >> I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's > >> not much there. A while ago I did scan a > >> tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley > >> https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 > >> > >> Steve. > >> > > What does ALD stand for? > > Bill > > Automated Logic Diagramthey are logic diagrams that where printed on > 1403 printer with a special print train. > > Paul. > >
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Marc said Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them? Marc And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book covering. I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's not much there. A while ago I did scan a tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 Steve. What does ALD stand for? Bill Automated Logic Diagram they are logic diagrams that where printed on 1403 printer with a special print train. Paul.
Re: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Marc said > > Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. > Anyone has them? > > > > Marc > > And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 > ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only > saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book > covering. > I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's > not much there. A while ago I did scan a > tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley > https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 > > Steve. > What does ALD stand for? Bill
Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
Marc said > Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone > has them? > > Marc And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book covering. I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's not much there. A while ago I did scan a tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 Steve.
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 3/31/2019 4:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: William Donzelli > > > It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least > > not in the archives. ... they simply did not keep much from that era. > > It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. > > Which emphasizes that it's important to make the point to IBM that we > wouldn't be asking for IBM to supply the information; rather, this is about > being able to reproduce info that IBM itself may no longer have. > Been there, done that. Came to a dead end after about a year of emails and even a phone call or two. > Is anyone up for tackling IBM? If so, and we need support, I can ask my > Master, Jerry Saltzer, if anyone he knew at IBM is still there - he used to > have a lot of influence inside IBM (he's the person who got FS killed, I was > informed). But that was a long time ago... > > > From: Jay Jaeger > > > I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners > > would not part with their copies was ... concern over their value > > becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. > > One easy way to test that is to have Al ask the person with the ALD's if > they'd be OK with having that stuff scanned if we got an OK from IBM. > > Noel > Based on my experience, they will not ever give such an OK.
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 28/03/2019 17:46, Ken Shirriff via cctech wrote: > I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in > order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way > there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. > So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on > bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. > > I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 > instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange > micro-instructions, such as S47ΩE, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 > through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, > like F→FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1→BS*MB which > does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 > microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) > > Thanks, > Ken Welcome to the club! Do you only have the manuals from Bitsavers? So CLDs but no ALDs. Yes, something that does a FP shift-left-4 will be related to the IBM FP format normalisation and it should be possible to work out exactly what from the context. It may do other odd things and not just what the operation mnemonic shows, e.g shift left 4 + increment exponent + set flag on overflow, or perhaps the opposite to de-normalise for addition/subtraction (see CPL 115.) You could also look through the diagnostic sections to see if the operation is used in there - this may well give exercise special cases of the operation and confirm exactly how it is meant to work. I had a problem with the 2030 ALDs and CLDs not being the same version (I think the microcode/CLD was newer) and this meant it would not work with the circuitry I had. I can't remember the differences, I think an extra diagnostic latch or two, but once the diagnostics passed I was confident they were correct. Is there anything new at http://www.ibm360.info/ for you? -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
> From: William Donzelli > It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least > not in the archives. ... they simply did not keep much from that era. > It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. Which emphasizes that it's important to make the point to IBM that we wouldn't be asking for IBM to supply the information; rather, this is about being able to reproduce info that IBM itself may no longer have. Is anyone up for tackling IBM? If so, and we need support, I can ask my Master, Jerry Saltzer, if anyone he knew at IBM is still there - he used to have a lot of influence inside IBM (he's the person who got FS killed, I was informed). But that was a long time ago... > From: Jay Jaeger > I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners > would not part with their copies was ... concern over their value > becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. One easy way to test that is to have Al ask the person with the ALD's if they'd be OK with having that stuff scanned if we got an OK from IBM. Noel
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
> My experience with IBM legal (who were actually quite communicative when > I approached them) on that front with IBM 1410 manuals suggests to me > that they will not ever give explicit permission, because nobody at IBM > will ever by confident that they won't end up giving away some trade > secret or other. We (Techworks in Binghamton, NY) work with the archivist quite a bit, and are a=on very good terms. Nope, they simply did not keep much from that era. It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. -- Will
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 3/30/2019 12:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get > > 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me. > > Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone > at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough > up the info themselves, that might be doable. > > I'd try and get a blanket OK for anything more than 20 years old, i) that > should be long enough that they'd be OK with it, ii) a moving thing like > that would mean you wouldn't have to go back again. > > Noel > My experience with IBM legal (who were actually quite communicative when I approached them) on that front with IBM 1410 manuals suggests to me that they will not ever give explicit permission, because nobody at IBM will ever by confident that they won't end up giving away some trade secret or other. Even when they know the risk is nonexistant, it isn't possible to get anyone to sign off on it. So instead we (meaning the collective community) are left with a situation where IBM's failure to send a cease and desist letter of some sort becomes a kind of tacit permission. I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners would not part with their copies was concern over losing them or concern over their value becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. JRJ
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
> Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone > at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough > up the info themselves, that might be doable. It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least not in the archives. Maybe in some forgotten closet or abandoned office. -- Will
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
> From: Al Kossow > Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get > 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me. Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough up the info themselves, that might be doable. I'd try and get a blanket OK for anything more than 20 years old, i) that should be long enough that they'd be OK with it, ii) a moving thing like that would mean you wouldn't have to go back again. Noel
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 3/29/19 9:12 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone > has them? I've been looking for years. The few on bitsavers is all I've ever been able to get. Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me.
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
Which brings us to the real problem: we don’t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them? Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk@classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Jon Elson , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" Date: Friday, March 29, 2019 at 8:45 AM To: Ken Shirriff , , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 instruction set. If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a 360 by an emulator? It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL (Register Transfer Logic) in a "language". I've figured out a bunch of the strange micro-instructions, such as S47ΩE, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, like F→FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1→BS*MB which does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in the serpentine word-line traces of the control store boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor read only storage) where there were two word lines on one board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor, called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word, if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a microcode change required a board master artwork to be changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the required documents for that project. Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model. Jon
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
>From an emulation standpoint, latch or flop is not necessarily an issue. It is >that it is a state holding element. The only potential issue is if he was >doing clock cycle emulation. He'd need to understand what was originally >considered a clock cycle. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:51 AM To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Ken Shirriff Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? > On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were > transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases. paul
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
> On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were > transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases. paul
Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 instruction set. If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a 360 by an emulator? It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL (Register Transfer Logic) in a "language". I've figured out a bunch of the strange micro-instructions, such as S47ΩE, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, like F→FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1→BS*MB which does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in the serpentine word-line traces of the control store boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor read only storage) where there were two word lines on one board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor, called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word, if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a microcode change required a board master artwork to be changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the required documents for that project. Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model. Jon
IBM 360 Model 50 information?
I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange micro-instructions, such as S47ΩE, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, like F→FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1→BS*MB which does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) Thanks, Ken
