Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 9/20/18 3:10 AM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax I'm not sure if this helps - they seem like they may be in the disposal chain though, might possibly be able to grab manuals if they come up? http://www.a1usedcomputers.com.au/shop/prodList.asp?idCategory=256 That would be good, A1 seems to have a lot of the more recent stuff listed. I haven't pursued anything with them since they are in Australia. The other thing I've not been able to turn up so far are the part numbers for the keyboards that go with third-party terminals, and what their key layout is. With the exception of the one Microswitch Telex keyboard Cindy found, there is very little documented on 70-80's non-IBM keyboards. I would imagine there are still piles of them from the 90's out there, and maybe the kb collectors haven't picked over them yet because they don't know what they are. While not period correct, at least the less collectable 88 and 122 key rubber dome or foam and foil ones have the correct key layout.
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
> I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible > coax and twinax I'm not sure if this helps - they seem like they may be in the disposal chain though, might possibly be able to grab manuals if they come up? http://www.a1usedcomputers.com.au/shop/prodList.asp?idCategory=256
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:00 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible > coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or squirreled > away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and > surviving keyboards for them I don't know if you ever mirrored the IBM docs I was working on starting a couple years back, but there are quite a few terminal/comms related titles here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FIBM%2FMainframe%2FHardware The collection I was drawing from for scans is now in other hands, but I did as many of the interesting ones as I could get to. Please take any you want for Bitsavers. -j
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
> On Sep 19, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. > > There hasn't ever been much talk on cctlk about non-ASCII terminals. > > It's one of those things that never crossed my mind before having to deal > with that world in the context of working with the Museum's holdings. > > Burroughs and Sperry had their own incompatible polling terminals too. My "favorite" weird terminal is the Harris 2200 display advertising editing station. It was used in newspapers in the late 1970s, where I ran into it connected to DEC's Typeset-11 system. I think each terminal was a display head connected to some sort of PDP-11 controller. Not sure, it may have been something else. The communication protocol was seriously mind-bending. Multidrop BISYNC over an async line (DL11-E at the PDP11 end), half duplex with modem control signals for the poll and line direction handshakes. It usually worked. But I did have some painful 2 am debug sessions at the Philadelphia Bulletin when it didn't quite work all the time... paul
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 9/19/18 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. There hasn't ever been much talk on cctlk about non-ASCII terminals. It's one of those things that never crossed my mind before having to deal with that world in the context of working with the Museum's holdings. Burroughs and Sperry had their own incompatible polling terminals too. Come to think of it, HP did in a big way as well, they just spoke ASCII.
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. I had a few, but scrapped them back in the mid 1980s. I saved a couple of the hermaphroditic twinaxial connectors from them, however. I don't recall seeing such connectors anywhere else. --Chuck
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 9/19/18 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions it > provides? Functionally being (what I think > is) a controller that would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network > to Hercules? correct. non-trivial project, but something that needs to be documented. coax and s/3x twinax terminals are similar conceptually. There were companies like Telex/Memorex/MTX/Visara, Decision Data and Lee Data that sold terminals in both flavors The ones for coax talked to 'establishment controllers' that were the actual intelligence of the terminal. The terminals themselves were essentially polled keyboards and a (80 x N line) alphanumeric display. Later multiple simultanious mainframe sessions were added to the terminals that you could switch between. Coax uses a point-point connection between controller and terminal, twinax is multi-drop through T connectors. Well, sort of. Eventually both systems migrated to phone style CAT cable with coax to RJ baluns and patch panels. There were other companies that sold serial async converters that would take the polled protocol and could turn it into something an ASCII serial terminal could deal with. Then PCs got things like "IRMA" cards that could pretend to be one of the polled terminals, buffering the alphanumeric screen image on a local RAM buffer the PC could communicate with. That evolved into hardware that could support multiple sessions as well. Same thing happened with twinax, with different vendors. 'IRMA' was a DCA/Attachmate/Microfocus thing. The hardware got more and more integrated over time. The Telex 277 has three boards of TTL in the terminal. 276 generation used two 2901s. The last of the MTX terminals were pretty much just one National DP83445 ASIC, or one 317744 CIP ASIC in the case of Attachmate. If you don't want real coax hardware, you just run TN3270. I'd like to have something runnable at the museum on period hardware, though, that might be possible to maintain, which was why I picked up the Telex.
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 09/19/2018 12:08 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions it provides? Functionally being (what I think is) a controller that would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network to Hercules? You jostled my brain enough that a random thought came rattling out. There are some Multicians working on 3270 support for for a virtual FNP. This means that they already have some code to interpret (TN)3270 data streams. I think they were connecting a TN3270 client to the virtual FNP that was talking to the Multics machine. I don't know how much help that might be, but it's some existing code related to pretending to be a (TN)3270 source that is consumed by TN3270 terminals. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 09/19/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape that Ken Schrriff did https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a 3174. 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you want to attach one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do. So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions it provides? Functionally being (what I think is) a controller that would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network to Hercules? -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
Den ons 19 sep. 2018 kl 18:15 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and > compatible coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or > squirreled away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and > surviving keyboards for them > are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like > Telex or Memorex. > I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of > them have no keyboards :-( > This is a drag. > > Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state > since many appear to have adopted > some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. > > There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal > and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment > controller > that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of > someone who > has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards. > > > I have a set of four binders of technical documentation for the Alfaskop 4110 series. Very often used with IBM. An overview of the Alfaskop 4110 can be found here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/programmable_terminals/Datapro_C21_Ericsson.pdf Is more in-depth tech info for the 4110 series of interest? BTW. The only thing I have from a Alfaskop 41xx terminal IS the keyboard. Remains to find the rest.. /Mattis
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
>> Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. typo, meant 3278
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 9/19/18 10:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. > > Hmm. Isn’t that just a standard IBM 5 pin DIN keyboard? That’s all I have > for my > 3179s and I thought that the 3178 had the same keyboard (but I could be > mistaken… > hey, it could happen!). 3278 Henk's page on an adapter, which describes the interface http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/IBM3278/
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
I just wanted to send this privately. I have a number of 3278/79 keyboards that I could *loan* you (as I have exactly the number of keyboards to match terminals) for documenting. The problem is getting together. I was just down in Santa Clara a couple of weeks ago for work and I probably won’t be down again until either late October or early November. My most common keyboard is the “data entry keyboard” but I do have a typewriter style keyboard for my 3279 and the operator keyboard for the console on my 4331. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? > > yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented > before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. > > Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. > > I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape > that Ken Schrriff did > https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a > 3174. > 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you > want to attach > one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on > Hercules want to do. >
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
> On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? > > yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented > before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. Sorry, it’s already gotten bad. There are a couple of 3278/9 keyboards on eBay at the moment that have *insane* prices. > > Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. Hmm. Isn’t that just a standard IBM 5 pin DIN keyboard? That’s all I have for my 3179s and I thought that the 3178 had the same keyboard (but I could be mistaken… hey, it could happen!). > > I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape > that Ken Schrriff did > https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a > 3174. > 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you > want to attach > one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on > Hercules want to do. Count me in! TTFN - Guy
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape that Ken Schrriff did https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a 3174. 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you want to attach one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do.
Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 12:47 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and > compatible coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or > squirreled away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and > surviving keyboards for them > are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like > Telex or Memorex. > I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of > them have no keyboards :-( > This is a drag. > > Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state > since many appear to have adopted > some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. > > There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal > and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment > controller > that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of > someone who > has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards. > > >
ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures
I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or squirreled away that I don't already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and surviving keyboards for them are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like Telex or Memorex. I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of them have no keyboards :-( This is a drag. Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state since many appear to have adopted some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment controller that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of someone who has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards.
