Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> I don't know if the front console on the early UNIBUS machines works without
> any memory on the UNIBUS - I'm too lazy to check. I have this vague memory 
> that
> they do, though.

The front console on the '45 indeed does run just fine with no UNIBUS (or 
FASTBUS) memory in the machine.  Its is entirely implemented/mediated by CPU 
microcode and CPU internal state registers.

  --FritzM.

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Brent Hilpert

> I wouldn't have thought any of the (various 11 CPU) ODTs used
> interrupts for the console

They don't.

> Don't know which CPU Noel was referring to.

The OP was having problems with an LSI-11 (M7264 quad card); I was working
with an LSI-11/2 (M7270 dual card - I don't have any LSI-11's). But I'm pretty
sure the CPUs on the two are identical; and certainly, both display the 'must
have memory at 0 for ODT to work'.

Noel

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Allison Parent

> ! Seriously? ...  Memory of some form there is a must.

I don't know about you, but my approach in looking into hardware issues is
often to start by reducing things to the simplest possible configuration that
exhibits the failure.

(I asssume the various reasons for that approach are obvious.)

So, the OP couldn't get ODT to work. Well, what's the simplest config one
needs for ODT? Well, a CPU (but it won't be executing any instructions, so one
could leave HALT on), the console serial card (with a working terminal
attached), a bus/backplane to plug them into, and a power supply.

But no, the LSI-11 machines also want memory - although it's unused by ODT
after a single read cycle at power-on.

It's probably worth pointing out that this is _not_ true of the F-11 machines;
those do ODT just fine without memory. Perhaps DEC got some complaints about
the behaviour of the LSI-11, and made a change?

I don't know if the front console on the early UNIBUS machines works without
any memory on the UNIBUS - I'm too lazy to check. I have this vague memory that
they do, though.


> The architecture of pdp-11 has the first 256 words as interrupt vectors
> and software locations.

Some 'internal' interrupts from the CPU (e.g. NXM) are at fixed, low,
locations (in Kernel D space on some of the models with MMU, to be technical -
I don't know about the /40 and /34, etc), but there's nothing that restricts
_device_ interrupts to be in low memory (either physical, or virtual on those
machines which get vectors from Kernel virtual).

E.g. in the "pdp-11 bus handbook" (EB 17525 20), pg. 119, it says "Place
Vector on BDAL <15:00> L" - so one could use 014 if one wanted.

Most DEC devices that do the vector with jumpers don't have posts for all 15
bits, it is true, but AFAIK no CPU looks at only the low bits on the bus.

> How else would the console vectors at 60 work.

ODT doesn't use interrupts.

Noel

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2019-Aug-14, at 1:26 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote:
> IPhoned it in!
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> From: Jonathan (systems_glitch)
> 
>> Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2!
> 
> Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory
> at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC
> documentation anywhere...)
> 
>   Noel
> 
> ! Seriously?  
> The architecture of pdp-11 has
> the first 256 words as interrupt
> vectors and software locations.
> Memory of some form there is
> a must. How else would the console vectors at 60 work.



Well, the J11 ODT works fine with no memory.

I wouldn't have thought any of the (various 11 CPU) ODTs used interrupts for 
the console, and so wouldn't rely on the presence of vector memory.

Don't know which CPU Noel was referring to.

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Allison Parent via cctalk]

IPhoned it in!

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 

> From: Jonathan (systems_glitch)

> Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2!

Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory
at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC
documentation anywhere...)

   Noel

! Seriously?  
The architecture of pdp-11 has
the first 256 words as interrupt
vectors and software locations.
Memory of some form there is
a must. How else would the console vectors at 60 work.

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jonathan (systems_glitch)

> Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2!

Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory
at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC
documentation anywhere...)

Noel

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

On 8/14/2019 10:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > From: Paul Koning

 > Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET?

Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and
there's no internal register to control it.

The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it connects
BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is
cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_ clear
that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus receiver
for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once on,
it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles BPOK)
has to be hit.

The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates
'correctly'.

Noel


Everyone was right about what I was experiencing.  It was BEVNT/LTC.  
The front panel switches on the BA11-M I have read:


[HALT]  [RESTART] [AUX ON/OFF]

and I can't turn off the LTC from the front panel.  I had to set a 
switch on the BDV11 to disable BEVNT and with that XXDP booted up.  
Version 2.6.


Would like to run the RXV21 diagnostics since I have a 2nd controller 
that fails to work with the RX02 emulator.


Doug

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2! Some configurations also won't boot unless it's
on, if I remember correctly. I suppose this is part of the reason that
LSI-11/2 CPU boards are so cheap!

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:17 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > From: Paul Koning
>
> > Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET?
>
> Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and
> there's no internal register to control it.
>
> The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it
> connects
> BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is
> cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_
> clear
> that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus
> receiver
> for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once
> on,
> it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles
> BPOK)
> has to be hit.
>
> The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates
> 'correctly'.
>
> Noel
>

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Paul Koning

> Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET?

Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and
there's no internal register to control it.

The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it connects
BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is
cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_ clear
that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus receiver
for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once on,
it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles BPOK)
has to be hit.

The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates
'correctly'.

Noel

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jerry Weiss
> 
>> I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully. I am not immediately
>> sure why this is necessary.
> 
> If an LTC interrupt happens before the OS has set up the LTC vector, etc,
> hilarity ensues.
> 
> E.g. the LTC has to be turned off before UNIX V6 will boot on an -11/23:
> 
>  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23

That's weird.  Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET? 

paul

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jerry Weiss

> I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully. I am not immediately
> sure why this is necessary.

If an LTC interrupt happens before the OS has set up the LTC vector, etc,
hilarity ensues.

E.g. the LTC has to be turned off before UNIX V6 will boot on an -11/23:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23

I discovered this the hard way; I roached the disk on my simulated /23
when I didn't.

Noel

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

That sounds like it is trapping due to an LTC interrupt. Turn off the LTC

cheers,

Nigel

On 13/08/2019 21:05, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by 
AK6DN.  I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu 
(really basic 16 bit system).  I put the disk images from github on 
the SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version).


The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to 
boot the RX02 emulator.  Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't 
boot XXDP - it halts at 000104.


Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03?

Doug

 


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me 
to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number 
of system administrators along the way.
   Nigel Johnson 


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message

Re: XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

There are two versions of XXDP+ V2 monitors.   The XXDPSM.SYS is needed 
for cpu's w/o MMU's or don't have more than 28KW.  This and XXDPXM.SYS 
are both on the AK6DN diagnostic image. However, only a few other 
programs exist on the image.


In SIMH the AK6DN image does the same thing.  The halt location 100 is 
near the LTC vector.  I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully.

I am not immediately sure why this is necessary.


sim> show cpu
CPU    11/03, NOEIS, NOFIS, BEVENT disabled, autoconfiguration enabled, 
idle disabled

    56KB
sim> show ry
RY    address=1170-1173, vector=264, BR5, 2 units
  RY0    512KB, attached to XXDP.RX2, write enabled
    double density
  RY1    512KB, not attached, write enabled
    double density
sim> boot ry


MEMORY MANAGEMENT UNIT NOT FOUND
BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR

XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.6
REVISION: E0
BOOTED FROM DY0
28KW OF MEMORY
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152010
TYPE "H" FOR HELP

.H
? NOT FOUND: HELP  .TXT



From a XXDPXM boot.

.DIR

ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT    DATE  LENGTH  START   VERSION

    1  XXDPXM.SYS   1-MAR-89 39    67   F.0
    2  XXDPSM.SYS   1-MAR-89 29    000136   E.0
    3  DRSXM .SYS   1-MAR-89 48    000173   C.0
    4  DRSSM .SYS   1-MAR-89 24    000253   G.2
    5  DIR   .SYS   1-MAR-89  7    000303   D.0
    6  DB    .SYS   1-MAR-89  2    000312   C.0
    7  DD    .SYS   1-MAR-89  3    000314   D.0
    8  DL    .SYS   1-MAR-89  4    000317   D.0
    9  DM    .SYS   1-MAR-89  4    000323   C.0
   10  DR    .SYS   1-MAR-89  3    000327   C.0
   11  DU    .SYS   1-MAR-89  4    000332   E.0
   12  DY    .SYS   1-MAR-89  3    000336   D.0
   13  LP    .SYS   1-MAR-89  1    000341   B.0
   14  MM    .SYS   1-MAR-89  3    000342   C.0
   15  MS    .SYS   1-MAR-89  4    000345   C.0
   16  MU    .SYS   1-MAR-89  4    000351   E.0
   17  DATE  .SYS   1-MAR-89  2    000355   B.0
   18  DUSZ  .SYS   1-MAR-89  2    000357   C.0
   19  ZRXAF0.BIC   1-MAR-89 17    000361
   20  ZRXBF0.BIC   1-MAR-89 16    000402
   21  ZRXCA0.BIN   1-MAR-89  7    000422
   22  ZRXDC0.BIC   1-MAR-89 30    000431
   23  ZRXEA2.BIC   1-MAR-89 17    000467
   24  ZRXFB0.BIC   1-MAR-89 31    000510

FREE BLOCKS:   629


   Jerry




On 8/13/19 8:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by 
AK6DN. I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu 
(really basic 16 bit system).  I put the disk images from github on 
the SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version).


The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to 
boot the RX02 emulator.  Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't 
boot XXDP - it halts at 000104.


Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03?

Doug

XXDP on PDP-11/03

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by 
AK6DN.  I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu 
(really basic 16 bit system).  I put the disk images from github on the 
SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version).


The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to boot 
the RX02 emulator.  Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't boot 
XXDP - it halts at 000104.


Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03?

Doug

Re: Extra copy of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual"

[Todd Goodman via cctalk]

Hi Noel,

If you don't get any takers, I'm interested and will happily reimburse 
you your entire ebay cost (including shipping to you) as well as 
shipping to me.


Thank you!

Todd

On 5/10/2019 2:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

As a result of an inventory error on my part, I wound up with an extra copy
of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003).

I'd like to pass it along to someone, provided I'm reimbursed _most_ of
my eBait expenditure on it (it was not, alas, cheap). Anyone interested?

Noel

Extra copy of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual"

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

As a result of an inventory error on my part, I wound up with an extra copy
of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003).

I'd like to pass it along to someone, provided I'm reimbursed _most_ of
my eBait expenditure on it (it was not, alas, cheap). Anyone interested?

Noel

PDP 11/03 for sale (re-post with corrections, updates)

[Sellam Ismail via cctalk]

I posted for sale last week a "LSI 11" system which I've since had help
properly identifying as an 11/03.  I never called it an 11/34 but my
photobin indicated it was, and some people were confused, so my apologies.

The updated information is in the replies to the original ad (link below),
along with photos of the whole unit, which I neglected to include
originally:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57667-LLNL-LSI-11-Homebrew-system

Also, I have decided upon a $200 asking price, or your best offer.

I will also be replying to those who have already contacted me about this
system.

Thanks!

Sellam

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Eric Smith]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 10:24 PM, John Wilson  wrote:
>>I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of
>>the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two
>>40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is
>>willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon,
>>I'm not holding my breath...
>
> I'd certainly want to see something mostly just like it successfully
> read, before offering mine up to be next in line.  But, the beauty of
> computers is doing useful work, not hanging on the wall and being
> pretty ... so I feel like the "museum piece" mindset can easily be
> taken too far.

The MCP1600 chipset used in the LSI-11, WD16 (Alpha Micro AM100), and
WD9000 Pascal Microengine uses microcode ROMs that really are just
ROMs, so I was able to read them electrically. The trick with those is
that the control chip (CP1621 for LSI-11, CP1661 for WD16, CP2161 for
Pascal Microengine) contain two PLAs that can cause microcode jumps
based on the current microPC and the contents of the interrupt and
translation registers. The contents of the microcode ROMs themselves
are thus quite difficult to interpret without having the contents of
the PLAs.

John McMaster took photomicrographs of the CP2161 and stitched them together:
https://siliconpr0n.org/map/wd/cp2161/mz_mit20x/
I was able to successfully extract the contents of the translation
PLAs by inspection:

I processed the PLA dumps with Python scripts into two forms, one
somewhat suitable to be human-readable, and one useful as input to a
simulator:
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/wd/microengine/microcode/

I used the former to annotate my microcode disasssembly, and put the
latter and the microcode ROM dumps into a simulator which has now
successfully executed the first 30 macroinstructions (UCSD p-code
instructions) from a PDQ-3 boot ROM.

A CP1621 control chip from an LSI-11 has been provided to John, and
once he has a stitched photomicrograph of that, I'll do the same with
it.  I've already disassembled the LSI-11 microcode (base, and KEV11-A
EIS/FIS), so I should be able to make progress on that quickly once
the control PLAs are extracted. I plan to simulate it as well.

Obviously I'd want to do the delid and photomicrograph of the F11 base
instruction set control chip, which is nowhere near as rare, and
verify that the contents can be extracted and make sense, before doing
the same to the KEF11-B.  I don't have any 11/23 (or 11/24) modules on
hand, or I'd be happy to sacrifice a DCF11 to do that.  If anyone
would care to sacrifice one...

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Henk Gooijen]

-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Pete Lancashire 
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 5:22 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option 


Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
very strong box. I've actually
had EPROMs show up cracked in half

-pete

-
Of course Pete!  I would never put the chip "as-is" in a bubble-wrap
envelop, for several reasons.
To ship ICs, I have small hard-carton boxes, stuffed inside with
conducting foam (ESD countermeasure). These boxes are quite strong.

But I guess it is no longer needed. I will take a few pics anyway,
but that will be next weekend.
-Henk

USPS: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Ken Seefried]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
>
>Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not
>gentle on parcels.
>

I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period.  In the last 6
months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or
shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web
site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before
magically showing up.  Glad it wasn't perishable.

KJ

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Eric Smith]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Brian L. Stuart
 wrote:
> I'll be glad to loan them to you for the good of the community and history.

That would be great, thanks!  I'll email you my contact information.

Could you please post the markings of the other 40-pin chips as well,
and/or a photograph?

Best regards,
Eric

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Sat, 1/30/16, Eric Smith <space...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS
> (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as
> DIS (Dibol Instruction Set).  It apparently consists of two microcode
> ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5.

Eric,
It turns out my quad height LSI-11 card has the 23-004B5 and 23-005B5
chips on it.  The full markings are:

DEC
3025D
23-004B5
8030 B

and

DEC 3026 D (or maybe B)
23-005B5
8015 C

I'll be glad to loan them to you for the good of the community and history.

BLS

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[John Wilson]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 05:16:18PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote:
>On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen  wrote:
>> are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the
>> CIS "QIL" chip enough?   QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up
>> as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL.
>> ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box.
>
>Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to
>dump the microcode.

This is the first I'm hearing that there was a CIS micROM option for
the LSI-11[/2].  I'm very impressed if they were able to pull that off!

I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning
to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily
emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44
anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards).

John Wilson
D Bit

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Pete Lancashire]

Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
very strong box. I've actually
had EPROMs show up cracked in half

-pete

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooi...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Eric Smith
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 1:16 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooi...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> are yo looking for the 11/03 CPU board, or is the
>> CIS "QIL" chip enough?   QIL=Quad In Line , I made that up
>> as the CIS chip I am thinking of si 40 "double" DIL.
>> ISTR I have that CIS chip in a anti-static box.
>>
>
> Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to
> dump the microcode.
>
> 
> OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have
> stored that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip.
> I can do that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much
> is it is tiny enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop".
>
> - Henk
>
>

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Eric Smith]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 2:24 AM, Henk Gooijen  wrote:
> OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have
> stored that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip.
> I can do that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much
> is it is tiny enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop".

Hi Henk,

I think what you have is probably the KEF11-B CIS option for the F11
(11/23 and 11/24). If you find it, please let me know what the
markings on the hybrid and the chip carriers are, and/or take a photo.

As I noted in a reply to John Wilson, I don't think we can
electrically dump the KEF11-B chips. If what you have is a KEF11-B,
unless you're willing to sacrifice it (for science!) or sell it,
there's no reason to ship it out.

Best regards,
Eric

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Eric Smith]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:38 AM, John Wilson  wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 05:16:18PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote:
>>Just looking for the CIS chip(s), and just to borrow long enough to
>>dump the microcode.
>
> This is the first I'm hearing that there was a CIS micROM option for
> the LSI-11[/2].  I'm very impressed if they were able to pull that off!

I think the KEV11-C is not full CIS, but rather a subset. It's usually
described as DIBOL Instruction Set (DIS). There are two diagnostics
for DIS; VKAI?? is for move and string instructions (MOVC, MOVRC,
CMPC, LOCC, SKP, SCANC, SPANC), and VKAJ?? is for decimal instructions
(ADDN, SUBN, CMPN, CVTNL).

DIS was standard in some of the D3xx commercial-oriented LSI-11
systems, such as the D324. The KD11-P and KD11-Q processors are the
M7264-BB and M7264-YB, respectively, with the KEV11-C DIS
preinstalled.

It's not possible to use DIS together with the KEV11-A EIS/FIS (or
KEV11-B EIS) options, due both to limited number of MICROM sockets,
and that the base instruction set and DIS together take up the entire
microcode address space. However, the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual
Volume 3 (Jan. 85) states that the VKAB?? EIS diagnostic will work
with the KEV11-C, so presumably KEV11-C includes both DIS and EIS (but
not FIS).

My understanding is that the KEV11-C option consists of two non-hybrid
MICROMs, 23-004B5 and 23-005B5, and is used with a 40-pin hybrid
containing the two MICROMs of the base instruction set. The hybrid is
23-001B6, 23-002B6, or 23-003B6; I don't know what differences there
are between the three hybrid part numbers, but they're described as
being for M7264 ECO 10, ECO 12, and ECO 16, respectively.

> I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning
> to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily
> emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44
> anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards).

I've got bad news for you. The control chips of the F11 chipset aren't
just ROMs; they include the control sequencer (one per control chip).
Unless there's an undocumented test mode, it's not possible to dump
the full microcode word, since only part of it is output to pins, and
it's not possible to dump the contents purely sequentially. I think it
will be necessary to dump them optically, which of course requires the
chip carriers to be delidded. While this is not necessarily
destructive, it can't be 100% guaranteed not to damage the chips, and
even if it doesn't, the future reliability of them may be diminished.

On the other hand, as you say, if we could dump the KEF11-B CIS
control chips (optically or otherwise), we could build a replacement
daughtercard that emulates KEF11-B, and then anyone that wanted to
have CIS on their 11/23 or 11/24 would have a relatively low-cost
option to do so.

I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of
the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two
40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is
willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon,
I'm not holding my breath...

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen  wrote:

OK, if nobody in the USA steps up, I will check where I have stored 
that little box. At least, I am pretty sure I have that chip. I can do 
that this week. Insured shipping would not cost much is it is tiny 
enough to be shipped in a "bubble envelop".


Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a 
very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half


Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not 
gentle on parcels. That said, even a box isn't foolproof, I had one small 
box containing 2GB registered ECC DIMMs packed in clamshells arrive that 
had clearly been run over by a forklift (none of the memory modules 
survived).


I would also strongly advise anyone who uses printed shipping labels with 
barcodes to always use a box or mailer large enough for the label to fully 
fit flat on one side. If you wrap a label around a parcel, the automated 
label and barcode scanners in the processing machines cannot read them and 
those parcels tend to get delayed, sometimes for a significant amount of 
time (the record so far for stuff sent to me with an improperly applied 
label is a little over 3 months). The absolute worst thing you can do is 
wrap a label around a round tube horizontally...the barcode readers can't 
read it and the OCR scanners can't read the address. Such parcels end up 
having to be sorted by hand.

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[John Wilson]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 03:52:57PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote:
>I think the KEV11-C is not full CIS, but rather a subset. It's usually
>described as DIBOL Instruction Set (DIS).

OK the DIS part is hazily familiar, but still, neat!

>> I have the QIL CIS micROM for the LSI-11/23, and I too have been meaning
>> to build a ROM dumper for it, since it's a rare part but could be easily
>> emulated with modern hardware on a daughterboard (easier than the 11/44
>> anyway, where the CIS option means extra boards).
>
>I've got bad news for you. The control chips of the F11 chipset aren't
>just ROMs; they include the control sequencer (one per control chip).
>Unless there's an undocumented test mode, it's not possible to dump
>the full microcode word, since only part of it is output to pins, and
>it's not possible to dump the contents purely sequentially.

That IS bad news!  I'd grasped that there was a little more going on in
there than just ROM, but I didn't realize it was that much more.

>On the other hand, as you say, if we could dump the KEF11-B CIS
>control chips (optically or otherwise), we could build a replacement
>daughtercard that emulates KEF11-B, and then anyone that wanted to
>have CIS on their 11/23 or 11/24 would have a relatively low-cost
>option to do so.

Yeah that would be pretty slick.  The only real problem with CIS was
that it was too rare to use, for the most part anyway.

>I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of
>the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two
>40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is
>willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon,
>I'm not holding my breath...

I'd certainly want to see something mostly just like it successfully
read, before offering mine up to be next in line.  But, the beauty of
computers is doing useful work, not hanging on the wall and being
pretty ... so I feel like the "museum piece" mindset can easily be
taken too far.

John Wilson
D Bit

PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS
(Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as
DIS (Dibol Instruction Set).  It apparently consists of two microcode
ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5.

Last month I posted here about building a circuit to dump the contents
of MICROMs:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471@N04/albums/72157662054690240
I've dumped the base LSI-11 instruction set chips and the EIS/FIS
chip.  I've partially disassembled the former:
https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc
and verified that the latter matches the EIS/FIS microcode source code
provided with the KUV11 writable control store support software. I'd
like to dump the CIS microcode ROMs as well. The resulting dump would
be usable by anyone with a KUV11. I'm contemplating developing a
MICROM replacement board, which would be useful for those without a
KUV11.

I've made more progress with the WD9000 Pascal Microengine microcode
than the LSI-11 microcode because someone provided a photomicrograph
of the CP2161 control chip and I was able to dump the PLAs. I should
be getting a photomicrograph of the CP1621 control chip of the LSI-11
soon, and will be able to do the same for it.

Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option

[Paul Anderson]

I know one person who has one.  I think I had a few at one time, but it's
been years since I've seen them.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Eric Smith <space...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have a PDP-11/03 or LSI-11 with the KEV11-C CIS
> (Commercial Instruction Set) option? It may have also been known as
> DIS (Dibol Instruction Set).  It apparently consists of two microcode
> ROM chips (MICROMs), 23-004B5 and 23-005B5.
>
> Last month I posted here about building a circuit to dump the contents
> of MICROMs:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471@N04/albums/72157662054690240
> I've dumped the base LSI-11 instruction set chips and the EIS/FIS
> chip.  I've partially disassembled the former:
> https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc
> and verified that the latter matches the EIS/FIS microcode source code
> provided with the KUV11 writable control store support software. I'd
> like to dump the CIS microcode ROMs as well. The resulting dump would
> be usable by anyone with a KUV11. I'm contemplating developing a
> MICROM replacement board, which would be useful for those without a
> KUV11.
>
> I've made more progress with the WD9000 Pascal Microengine microcode
> than the LSI-11 microcode because someone provided a photomicrograph
> of the CP2161 control chip and I was able to dump the PLAs. I should
> be getting a photomicrograph of the CP1621 control chip of the LSI-11
> soon, and will be able to do the same for it.
>

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, ste...@malikoff.com wrote:
> 
> I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a 
> listmember who would have
> taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box.
> 

I'd be divided if I'd get that offer.

> I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there.
> 
> If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to 
> knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from 
> styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar 
> working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in 
> different thicknesses already.
> 
> So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll 
> add this project to the pile :)

:-)

/P

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Rod Smallwood]

On 17/12/2015 16:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, ste...@malikoff.com wrote:

I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a 
listmember who would have
taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box.


I'd be divided if I'd get that offer.


I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there.

If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to
knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from
styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar
working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in
different thicknesses already.

So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll
add this project to the pile :)

:-)

/P

Thats interesting.
I had  always wondered about what bezels are made of.
The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium.
It must be diecast something  or other.

 I also thought of maybe making a silicone mould and use casting resin.

Rod Smallwood

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Rod Smallwood
 wrote:
> I had  always wondered about what bezels are made of.
> The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium.
> It must be diecast something  or other.

Zamac?

-ethan

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Jacob Ritorto]

I have a complete, unpopulated 11/03 chassis if you'd be interested in
trading for some number of unibus and q-bus modules on my wish list -
looking for scsi interfaces, ethernet, working -15v h745 bricks and a Micro
PDP11 power supply.  Have any stuff like this?

thx
jake


On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pon...@update.uu.se>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage
> and power supply. Looks just like this:
>
>
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg
>
> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to
> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:
>
> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg
>
> Does anyone have one for sale?
>
> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine
> got a small crack in it.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[steven]

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel
From:"Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwoo...@btinternet.com>
Date:Fri, December 18, 2015 3:17 am
To:  "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>
--

>
>
> On 17/12/2015 16:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, ste...@malikoff.com wrote:
>>> I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a 
>>> listmember who would have
>>> taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box.
>>>
>> I'd be divided if I'd get that offer.
>>
>>> I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there.
>>>
>>> If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to
>>> knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from
>>> styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar
>>> working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in
>>> different thicknesses already.
>>>
>>> So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll
>>> add this project to the pile :)
>> :-)
>>
>> /P
> Thats interesting.
> I had  always wondered about what bezels are made of.
> The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium.
> It must be diecast something  or other.
>
>   I also thought of maybe making a silicone mould and use casting resin.
>
> Rod Smallwood


I've only seen the 11/05 bezel close up - and assuming others are the same - 
looks to
me a heavier sturdier alloy than Mazak (Zamak in the USA), but I guess it could 
be.

The bezel could be cast in resin, but resin can shrink and distort a bit. 
Fibreglass
with a white gelcoat layer could be laid up in a silicone mould too, if care 
was taken not
to bend the silcone after the laying up the gelcoat. Reminds me of the time I 
helped build
fourteen kayaks at our house for a scout troop many years ago, I will never 
forget the
smell of polyester resin and the millions of chopped strand glass fibres 
getting everywhere!

A vacform (probably styrene) as proposed for the PiDP-11 would also be a good 
consideration.

I think any of these would look pretty good after spraypainting.

Steve.

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Mike Boyle]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Paul Anderson <used...@gmail.com> wrote:

> opps... The "N" parts are easier to find.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Paul Anderson <used...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find.
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pon...@update.uu.se>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage
> >> and power supply. Looks just like this:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg
> >>
> >> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to
> >> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:
> >>
> >> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg
> >>
> >> Does anyone have one for sale?
> >>
> >> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine
> >> got a small crack in it.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Pontus.
> >>
> >
> >
>



-- 
That is a nice peice!! thanks for thw pic.

WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Hi

It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage 
and power supply. Looks just like this:

http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg

The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to 
make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:

http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg

Does anyone have one for sale?

The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine 
got a small crack in it.

Regards,
Pontus.

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[steven]

> Hi
>
> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage
> and power supply. Looks just like this:
>
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg
>
> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to
> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:
>
> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg
>
> Does anyone have one for sale?
>
> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine
> got a small crack in it.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.

I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a 
listmember who would have
taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box.

I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there.

If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to knock up a CAD 
drawing and construct
a passable replica from styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar 
working with. I have
a number of large sheets of it in different thicknesses already.

So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll add this project 
to the pile :)

Steve.

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Paul Anderson]

I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pon...@update.uu.se>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage
> and power supply. Looks just like this:
>
>
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg
>
> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to
> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:
>
> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg
>
> Does anyone have one for sale?
>
> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine
> got a small crack in it.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>

Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel

[Paul Anderson]

opps... The "N" parts are easier to find.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Paul Anderson <used...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pon...@update.uu.se>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage
>> and power supply. Looks just like this:
>>
>>
>> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg
>>
>> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to
>> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here:
>>
>> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg
>>
>> Does anyone have one for sale?
>>
>> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine
>> got a small crack in it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Pontus.
>>
>
>

Re: PDP 11/03

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 05:56, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
> (Actually, although there are only 10 pins, it looks like the connector
> housings will hold 14-pin shells, so it you want to not have to carefully
> align the cable before plugging it in, go for 14's. Haven't tried this
> personally - yet - so take that one with a grain of salt!)

That's precisely what I did for my little DLV11 to modular adapter. I'll share 
a picture later this morning. The DLV11 housing is wide, presumably to allow 
for wider ribbon cable connectors. I used a 14 pin housing to make it easier to 
line the connector up in the back of a dark equipment rack.

For my discrete wire cables, I've been using 10 pin housings with the keying 
pin blocked off, but 14 pin housings should also work. I keep a supply of the 
crimp pins on hand along with 1, 2, 3 and 10 pin housings to cover DLV11 cables 
plus the common varieties of jumpers I often need to cobble together. I can 
share part numbers if anybody would like me to.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: PDP 11/03

[Christian Corti]

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway...
No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse modem 
control for flow control.


What about the connections between the TTL signals and the line 
drivers/receivers? There are definitley such connections to be made in the 
Berg connector (like TTL SERIAL DATA IN on connector pin E). For EIA you 
need to connect pin E with pin M. (See also page 178 in the microcomputer 
interfaces handbook [1980]).


Christian

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jim Stephensn

> thanks for the help.

Eh, always happy to help anyone with PDP-11 stuff.

> the buddy mentioned above did a lot of dec maintenance and put these
> cables in a pile as he found them..

They're probably worth a good bit now, given how scarce they are! ;-)

> Also will order some parts to make the cable off the M7940.

You might want to order some 10-pin shells (for the DLV11-J, etc) at the same
time, those are really common on later DEC gear - the DLV11/DLV11-J was the
transition point.

(Actually, although there are only 10 pins, it looks like the connector
housings will hold 14-pin shells, so it you want to not have to carefully
align the cable before plugging it in, go for 14's. Haven't tried this
personally - yet - so take that one with a grain of salt!)

I'm off to order some 14-pin shells myself! :-)

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-10 11:55, Christian Corti wrote:

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway...
No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse
modem control for flow control.


What about the connections between the TTL signals and the line
drivers/receivers? There are definitley such connections to be made in
the Berg connector (like TTL SERIAL DATA IN on connector pin E). For EIA
you need to connect pin E with pin M. (See also page 178 in the
microcomputer interfaces handbook [1980]).


Yes. The signals exist, because you might be connecting to a modem. But 
they are not used for flow control. You can control what is output, and 
you can check what comes in. But the hardware do not act on any of this.
If you write your own software then you can of course do things based on 
those signals...


Johnny

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Henk Gooijen

> As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used
> handshake.

I'm pretty sure this is true of all the ones that had a hardwired serial
console - it's definitely true of the 11/23 and J11 chip ones (/73, etc), and
probably the 11/03's too (although it's been 30+ years since I used one of
those, so don't hold me to that :-).

> So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect. 

Errq, many of them _require_ a loop-back between a pair of pins on the
Berg/DuPont connector to operate - this is true of the DL11 (M7800 - UNIBUS),
DLV11 (M7940 - QBUS), DLV11-J (M8043) and 11/23+, for instance), and probably
the 11/83-84 too. So just connecting up R, X, and Gnd alone won't do it.

> Also, common (?) is *no* parity.

That, and number of bits, I have no idea about - we always changed things to
our local standard (8 bits, no parity, 2 stop bits, IIRC) straight away. Best
to check the hardware, and see what it's set to, and either set it to what
you're using, or change what you're plugging into it to match.

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-09 21:13, jwsmobile wrote:



On 11/9/2015 4:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephensn

 > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this
 > 11/03 going.
 > ...
 > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller.

Hmm. I can't find anything online about the -YA variant of the DLV11; the
DLV11 prints (MP00055) don't seem to show it.

I don't know exactly wqhat the "extra wires to bring out clock & ..
110/300
speed change" entail - and whether you have to have the right jumpers,
etc in
the Berg connector to make it run?

the above reference I copied and pasted from Megan Gentry's dec module
guide
http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt

I don't know what that means either.


I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here.


I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going
with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any
of the other pins.  Also I will have to figure out the serial settings,
as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth.  I figure DEC folks do
that in their sleep, like others do with the systems they work on
frequenly.


Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway...
No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse 
modem control for flow control.


Serial settings... Well, that is essentially a software thing. So it 
depends on the system you have installed. The hardware can of course 
also do different things, but most of the time it's 8N1, and then 
software fool around.

But anything more modern than mid-70s will most likely be 8-bit clean.


I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a
reference.  I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" and I
don't want to screw it up by replacing cards.  I know even less about
loading the backplane than I do about hooking up a serial cable.

I figure worst case I'll get the ribbon cable and wire the lines to a
DB9 or such and see what happens from there.  I was hoping to get some
idea whether the correct cable might be available from someone on the
list first, and buy it, or better, find out how to spot them on ebay.
I've had a lot of luck with the boards, but none with finding listings
for cabling.


That would be a DE9. :-)
The information about cabling is in pretty much any DEC manual you'll 
look in. The DLV11 manuals should be on bitsavers even.



Once I have the full system I got working, I have another full system
and a power supply I plan to bring to working, then I'll be brave enough
to start moving things around in the backplane and trying the 4 port
cards.  Most of them came from the cheap scrap guy, so I don't know the
state of them as well.  I've seen some people found there were duds in
the pile.


Maybe the easier path would be to buy a different DL-type serial line
board
(plain DLV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F, DLV11-J), they're available on eBait
for not
much money, usually - unless you already have one on hand, of course.
(Or did
you - for authenticity reasons - _have_ to run the -YA card?)

Those are all a known quantity, pinout-wise; the first three all use the
standard DL11 cable [same as the UNIBUS one, M7800], the last one uses
the
smaller header common to the later QBUS machines (e.g. 11/23+, etc).

If you have the Berg female shells and pins (not sure if you do; if not,
definitely worth getting them, since the cables are basically
unobtainable,
but fairly easy to make), but don't know the pinout for them, let me
know,
and I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams
(for DB25
connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, but not
for
direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those too).

I'd love that, thanks Noel.  I'm just trying to get as many questions
answered before I start applying power and squinting at LED's on a
serial status box, or on a scope.


Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision. 
It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps 
some improvement. But in general totally compatible.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

On 11/9/2015 4:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephensn

 > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this
 > 11/03 going.
 > ...
 > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller.

Hmm. I can't find anything online about the -YA variant of the DLV11; the
DLV11 prints (MP00055) don't seem to show it.

I don't know exactly wqhat the "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300
speed change" entail - and whether you have to have the right jumpers, etc in
the Berg connector to make it run?

the above reference I copied and pasted from Megan Gentry's dec module guide
http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt

I don't know what that means either.

I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going 
with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any 
of the other pins.  Also I will have to figure out the serial settings, 
as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth.  I figure DEC folks do 
that in their sleep, like others do with the systems they work on frequenly.


I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a 
reference.  I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" and I 
don't want to screw it up by replacing cards.  I know even less about 
loading the backplane than I do about hooking up a serial cable.


I figure worst case I'll get the ribbon cable and wire the lines to a 
DB9 or such and see what happens from there.  I was hoping to get some 
idea whether the correct cable might be available from someone on the 
list first, and buy it, or better, find out how to spot them on ebay.  
I've had a lot of luck with the boards, but none with finding listings 
for cabling.


Once I have the full system I got working, I have another full system 
and a power supply I plan to bring to working, then I'll be brave enough 
to start moving things around in the backplane and trying the 4 port 
cards.  Most of them came from the cheap scrap guy, so I don't know the 
state of them as well.  I've seen some people found there were duds in 
the pile.


Maybe the easier path would be to buy a different DL-type serial line board
(plain DLV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F, DLV11-J), they're available on eBait for not
much money, usually - unless you already have one on hand, of course. (Or did
you - for authenticity reasons - _have_ to run the -YA card?)

Those are all a known quantity, pinout-wise; the first three all use the
standard DL11 cable [same as the UNIBUS one, M7800], the last one uses the
smaller header common to the later QBUS machines (e.g. 11/23+, etc).

If you have the Berg female shells and pins (not sure if you do; if not,
definitely worth getting them, since the cables are basically unobtainable,
but fairly easy to make), but don't know the pinout for them, let me know,
and I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for DB25
connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, but not for
direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those too).
I'd love that, thanks Noel.  I'm just trying to get as many questions 
answered before I start applying power and squinting at LED's on a 
serial status box, or on a scope.




Noel

Thanks
Jim

Re: PDP 11/03

[Henk Gooijen]

-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: jwsmobile 
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:13 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: PDP 11/03 


I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it
 going with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need
to loop back any of the other pins.  Also I will have to figure out
the serial settings, as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth.


As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used
handshake. So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect.
Also, common (?) is *no* parity.

- Henk

Re: PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

On 11/9/2015 12:22 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: jwsmobile Sent: Monday, 
November 09, 2015 9:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP 11/03

I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it
 going with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need
to loop back any of the other pins.  Also I will have to figure out
the serial settings, as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth.


As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used
handshake. So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect.
Also, common (?) is *no* parity.

Thanks, Henk.  The main instance I've ever encountered parity other than 
N is with DEC systems, either VAX or Alphas.  And I was not connecting 
to the consoles, which I am in this case.  Just worth asking.  Seems to 
be one of the common fubars with all the "how do I hook up serial" to 
any system.


thanks
jim

- Henk

Re: PDP 11/03

[Mark J. Blair]

Just in case it helps, a while back I made a little board to adapt DLV11 plugs 
to 8p8c modular jacks, since I'm rediscovering the utility of adapting 
everything I own to common serial pinouts. It's not packaged up for public 
consumption very well yet (including a link in the documentation to a 
doesn't-exist-yet tag on my blog), but here are the Eagle design files:

https://github.com/NF6X/DLV11toRJ45

I should take a picture of the finished item, too. Maybe later today...

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

On 11/9/2015 7:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephensn

 > The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780.  I'm not
 > sure what it does. ... I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be pulled or
 > not to run the system.

This one I actually can answer, since I've been looking for /780
documentation: found some, but nothing on the hardware config of the console
front end, alas. But I did discover about how the LSI-11 is interfaced to the
VAX!

The M9400-YE is a standard QBUS card for doing QBUS extension boxes; the QBUS
leaves the M9400-YE (at the end of one box) on a couple of cables, which
normally go to a M9401 (the sister card to the M9400) in the first slot of
the next box.

In the /780, the cables from the M9400-YE instead go to a card in the VAX
CPU, an M8236 (the CIB - CPU Console Interface Board, I think). That board
contains i) a bunch of ROM for the LSI-11, and ii) registers which allow the
LSI-11 access to the inside of the /780 CPU - all of which are actually on
the LSI-11's QBUS, logically/electrically.

So, as to the M9400 - you can pull it, or leave it - there are no active
components on it (although it does have termination pull-ups). Do pull the
cables, though - they'd be un-terminated antennas...

 > The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic.

There are some versions of the M9400 which contain ROM chips with a
bootstrap. The M9400-YE, which you have, does not have these; it only has the
headers for the cables, and the pull-up resistors.


 > The line below that I clipped out, about the M7940-YA is for the
 > adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue one waiting for an
 > IDE cable to the back for serial connections.

Brain fart, I meant IDC ribbon cable.

Err, it's not an IDE cable, although it is a 40-pin connector; it is used
with special round cables, the wiring of which I described in an earlier
message.

 > A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have
 > both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port. That ... might
 > explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec module description about
 > extra wires.

No, the stock M7940 _already_ has support for both EIA and 20mA; see the
DLV11 prints (MP-00055), pg. 6; the EIA stuff is in the top right-hand
corner, the 20mA in the bottom right-hand.

On that same page, lower left, note the baud rate clock generation; note
that's entirely set by jumpers, so if there's some off-board way to set
it in the M9740-YA, they must have modified this area of the board.
I'll pull and play in the next few days and post an update on that 
part.  Also will pull the antennas. :-)


thanks for the help.

I also have a buddy rummaging thru his pile for a sigma type box with a 
similar configuration which will help as well.  His may have what you 
suggested, the 4 port card and a cable I can copy (or abscond with).


One reason I asked here, you answered about finding the cables on ebay.  
Explains why I've not been able to stumble across any.  But the buddy 
mentioned above did a lot of dec maintenance and put these cables in a 
pile as he found them.. Problem again the cleaning and searching job 
right now has not turned up that bin box either.


However it will turn up.

I'm also watching Mike Ross play with an Altera Spartan board and he is 
going to try to get the 2030 emulation going,  It may motivate me to get 
off my thumbs and get out mine as well while my buddy searches for cables.


Also will order some parts to make the cable off the M7940.
Thanks again
jim

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jim Stephensn

> The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780.  I'm not 
> sure what it does. ... I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be pulled or
> not to run the system.

This one I actually can answer, since I've been looking for /780
documentation: found some, but nothing on the hardware config of the console
front end, alas. But I did discover about how the LSI-11 is interfaced to the
VAX!

The M9400-YE is a standard QBUS card for doing QBUS extension boxes; the QBUS
leaves the M9400-YE (at the end of one box) on a couple of cables, which
normally go to a M9401 (the sister card to the M9400) in the first slot of
the next box.

In the /780, the cables from the M9400-YE instead go to a card in the VAX
CPU, an M8236 (the CIB - CPU Console Interface Board, I think). That board
contains i) a bunch of ROM for the LSI-11, and ii) registers which allow the
LSI-11 access to the inside of the /780 CPU - all of which are actually on
the LSI-11's QBUS, logically/electrically.

So, as to the M9400 - you can pull it, or leave it - there are no active
components on it (although it does have termination pull-ups). Do pull the
cables, though - they'd be un-terminated antennas...

> The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic.

There are some versions of the M9400 which contain ROM chips with a
bootstrap. The M9400-YE, which you have, does not have these; it only has the
headers for the cables, and the pull-up resistors.


> The line below that I clipped out, about the M7940-YA is for the
> adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue one waiting for an
> IDE cable to the back for serial connections.

Err, it's not an IDE cable, although it is a 40-pin connector; it is used
with special round cables, the wiring of which I described in an earlier
message.

> A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have 
> both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port. That ... might
> explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec module description about
> extra wires.

No, the stock M7940 _already_ has support for both EIA and 20mA; see the
DLV11 prints (MP-00055), pg. 6; the EIA stuff is in the top right-hand
corner, the 20mA in the bottom right-hand.

On that same page, lower left, note the baud rate clock generation; note
that's entirely set by jumpers, so if there's some off-board way to set
it in the M9740-YA, they must have modified this area of the board.

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jim Stephensn

>> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for
>> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables,
>> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those
>> too).

> I'd love that

OK, here are the bits.

For the 40-pin Berg/DuPont male header, when looking at the _header_ (on the
board) face-on, component-side up, pin A is in the lower left corner; they
then follow the 'DEC Alphabet' (What, you don't have this memorized? For
working with DEC gear, it's mandatory: 'ABCDEFHJKLMNPRSTUVWXYZ' - G, I, O and
Q are dropped), and then repeated, AA-VV.

For the 40-pin connector (M7800 DL11, M7940 DLV11):

 A - Ground
 B - Ground
 E - Interlock IN
 F - EIA Serial Output
 J - EIA Serial Input
 M - EIA Interlock OUT

So for a 'normal' serial cable (i.e. DTE, male DB25), connect J to pin 3, and
F to 2. For a 'null modem' serial cable (i.e. DCE, female DB25), connect J to
pin 2, and F to pin 3. Grounds connect to pins 1/7. Pin E must be connected
to M. For other signals, consult the DL11 User's Manual (DEC-11-HDLAA-B-D),
it has a full table.

For the 10-pin header, when looking at the _header_ face-on, component-side
up, pin 1 is in the upper right corner; pin 6 is missing (interlock), and 10
is in the lower left.
  
For the 10-pin connector (M8043 DLV11-J, M8189 11/23+, M8190 11/83-84):

 1 - Clock input
 2 - Ground
 3 - Transmit +
 4 - Transmit -
 5 - Ground
 6 - Index
 7 - Receive -
 8 - Receive +
 9 - Ground
 10 - +12V

It's set up to do either differential, or single-sided; the usual EIA usage
is to ground the - side of the received data, so you can run single-sided. So
for a cable _with_ null modem (i.e. DCE, to a female DB25), you want to
connect:

Header  DB25Signal

 2  7   Ground
 3  3   Transmit Data
 7  Loopback IN
 8  2   Receive Data
 9  Loopback OUT

For a normal DTE cable (to male DB25), swap pins 2 and 3 on the DB25 in
the list above.


I don't have notes for the cables to a DB9, to connect up directly to a PC's
serial input port, but if you want, they are pretty easy to put together a
list for.

(I did make a female-female DB9-DB9 cable, with null modem built in, to test
my serial line program, so I have the pinout for those too - just no PDP-11
direct to PC cables; I had a stack of DB25 to DB9 adaptors that I bought on
eBait, and I wanted all my PDP-11 cables wired to DB25's, so I'd be able to
interconnect -11's easily.)

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-10 00:05, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Johnny Billquist

 > I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here.
 > ...
 > Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision.
 > It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps
 > some improvement. But in general totally compatible.

This might be the exception to that rule! Note the description "extra wires to
bring out clock & 110/300 speed change"; if one could in fact change the baud
rate _off the card_, there's probably some special magic in the interface (and
thus the cable). I suggest consulting 11/780 manuals to see how it was used.


While you could be right, I still doubt the change is significant enough 
to be incompatible. There could be some enhancement, but I would be 
pretty sure I could swap the card with a non -YA without any issues.


But you're right - the only way to know for sure is to find the 
documentation.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: PDP 11/03

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-09 23:05, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Henk Gooijen

 > As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used
 > handshake.

I'm pretty sure this is true of all the ones that had a hardwired serial
console - it's definitely true of the 11/23 and J11 chip ones (/73, etc), and
probably the 11/03's too (although it's been 30+ years since I used one of
those, so don't hold me to that :-).

 > So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect.

Errq, many of them _require_ a loop-back between a pair of pins on the
Berg/DuPont connector to operate - this is true of the DL11 (M7800 - UNIBUS),
DLV11 (M7940 - QBUS), DLV11-J (M8043) and 11/23+, for instance), and probably
the 11/83-84 too. So just connecting up R, X, and Gnd alone won't do it.


Good point. The DL(V)11 is a general serial interface. If it's like the 
KL-8 cousin, it can use both TTL, EIA and 20mA. Converters for EIA and 
20mA is on the board, and you route the TTL signals through one or the 
other converter, and then use the other end of those converters for 
connecting to the external device. So, different cables/BERG connectors, 
gave you different interfaces. Of course, you can reroute the cabling in 
the BERG connector yourself as well...



 > Also, common (?) is *no* parity.

That, and number of bits, I have no idea about - we always changed things to
our local standard (8 bits, no parity, 2 stop bits, IIRC) straight away. Best
to check the hardware, and see what it's set to, and either set it to what
you're using, or change what you're plugging into it to match.


Agree. But in general I would concur with Henk on this. Most everything 
in DEC used to be 8N1, except for really old stuff, when they were fond 
of mark parity.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

On 11/9/2015 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephensn

 >> "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change"

 > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going
 > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any
 > of the other pins.

Well, without knowing how those extra pins work, it's very hard to say. Given
that _apparently_ one could change the baud rate externally (which means that
there's something in the cable - or at its other end - to do baud rate
selection), I'd _guess_ that a stock cable probably wouldn't work.

If you find a set of 11/780 prints, that _might_ include the specialized
cable for this beast, but short of that, you're talking signal trace/etc time.
The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780.  I'm not 
sure what it does.  The line below that I clipped out,  about the 
M7940-YA is for the adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue 
one waiting for an IDE cable to the back for serial connections.

 > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a
 > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working"

Yes, but it doesn't have the cable!

Trust me, swapping to a DLV11-J is a fully known, simple, approach - not like
trying to work with a serial board with an unknown header pinout!

And that 'working' was some decades back! Who knows what the situation is now!



 > I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards.

If all you do is replace the M7940 with an M8043 in the same slot, that
shouldn't present a problem (make sure the M8043 is configured properly to be
the console, though; it is, however, very well documented).

 > I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about hooking up
 > a serial cable.
The M7940 has no cables, is open.  I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be 
pulled or not to run the system.

That's OK, I have recently run both M7940's and M8043's in my QBUS systems
here; they are a straight replacement (albeit using different cables - a
40-pin Berg/DuPont connector on the former, and 10-pin Berg/DuPont on
the second one).


 > I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be
 > available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or better, find
 > out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the boards,
 > but none with finding listings for cabling.

Like I say, I expect the cable for the M7940-YA is a special item. As for
cables on eBay - fuhgeddabahtit!

Well, that's not quite true: seller 'conflandard' has some console cables for
sale, but I think only DLV11-J/11-23+ type (they are the same cable,
basically - the header pinout on the two cards is the same, the difference is
that the stock 11/23+ cable allows baud rate selection on the back panel -
but an 11/23+ _will_ work with a stock DLV11-J cable, provided the board is
jumpered correctly).

I've _never_ seen a DL11 type cable (with the 40-pin Berg/Du Pont connector)
for sale on eBay - well, not EIA ones. I think someone had an 20mA one for
sale, once.


 > and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap scrap
 > guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some people
 > found there were duds in the pile.

_Most_ of the cards I bought from him worked (I haven't been able to try them
all, e.g. I don't have a working UNIBUS machine yet). The one exception was a
DLV11-J on which two of the four serial ports didn't work.

Once you have a working machine/board set, it all becomes much easier, of
course - you can swap boards around and see which ones are working. (If you'd
like, you can send me the DLV11-J, and I'll either send you a known
fully-good one, or test yours and send it back, along with the results. I've
done this for other people here.)

Yep


 >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for
 >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables,
 >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those
 >> too).

 > I'd love that

OK, let me go unearth the cable diagrams - or I suppose I could just look
at a cable, I have a couple of mostly-finished ones on the workbench at the
moment! :-)

Noel

Thanks
Jim

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Johnny Billquist

> I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here.
> ...
> Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision.
> It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps
> some improvement. But in general totally compatible.

This might be the exception to that rule! Note the description "extra wires to
bring out clock & 110/300 speed change"; if one could in fact change the baud
rate _off the card_, there's probably some special magic in the interface (and
thus the cable). I suggest consulting 11/780 manuals to see how it was used.

Noel

Re: PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

On 11/9/2015 4:42 PM, jwsmobile wrote:



On 11/9/2015 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephensn

 >> "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change"

 > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get 
it going
 > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop 
back any

 > of the other pins.

Well, without knowing how those extra pins work, it's very hard to 
say. Given
that _apparently_ one could change the baud rate externally (which 
means that

there's something in the cable - or at its other end - to do baud rate
selection), I'd _guess_ that a stock cable probably wouldn't work.

If you find a set of 11/780 prints, that _might_ include the specialized
cable for this beast, but short of that, you're talking signal 
trace/etc time.
The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780.  I'm not 
sure what it does.  The line below that I clipped out,  about the 
M7940-YA is for the adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open 
blue one waiting for an IDE cable to the back for serial connections.
The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic.  
I've not pulled either of these since getting the system to examine them.


A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have 
both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port.  That would make 
things complicated, but might explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec 
module description about extra wires.


I may see if Megan Gentry is still around with any notes on what was put 
in the Dec modules guide on World.std.com


thanks
Jim

 > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a
 > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working"

Yes, but it doesn't have the cable!

Trust me, swapping to a DLV11-J is a fully known, simple, approach - 
not like

trying to work with a serial board with an unknown header pinout!

And that 'working' was some decades back! Who knows what the 
situation is now!



 > I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards.

If all you do is replace the M7940 with an M8043 in the same slot, that
shouldn't present a problem (make sure the M8043 is configured 
properly to be

the console, though; it is, however, very well documented).

 > I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about 
hooking up

 > a serial cable.
The M7940 has no cables, is open.  I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to 
be pulled or not to run the system.
That's OK, I have recently run both M7940's and M8043's in my QBUS 
systems

here; they are a straight replacement (albeit using different cables - a
40-pin Berg/DuPont connector on the former, and 10-pin Berg/DuPont on
the second one).


 > I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be
 > available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or 
better, find
 > out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the 
boards,

 > but none with finding listings for cabling.

Like I say, I expect the cable for the M7940-YA is a special item. As 
for

cables on eBay - fuhgeddabahtit!

Well, that's not quite true: seller 'conflandard' has some console 
cables for

sale, but I think only DLV11-J/11-23+ type (they are the same cable,
basically - the header pinout on the two cards is the same, the 
difference is
that the stock 11/23+ cable allows baud rate selection on the back 
panel -
but an 11/23+ _will_ work with a stock DLV11-J cable, provided the 
board is

jumpered correctly).

I've _never_ seen a DL11 type cable (with the 40-pin Berg/Du Pont 
connector)
for sale on eBay - well, not EIA ones. I think someone had an 20mA 
one for

sale, once.


 > and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap 
scrap
 > guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some 
people

 > found there were duds in the pile.

_Most_ of the cards I bought from him worked (I haven't been able to 
try them
all, e.g. I don't have a working UNIBUS machine yet). The one 
exception was a

DLV11-J on which two of the four serial ports didn't work.

Once you have a working machine/board set, it all becomes much 
easier, of
course - you can swap boards around and see which ones are working. 
(If you'd

like, you can send me the DLV11-J, and I'll either send you a known
fully-good one, or test yours and send it back, along with the 
results. I've

done this for other people here.)

Yep


 >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable 
diagrams (for
 >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial 
cables,
 >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate 
those

 >> too).

 > I'd love that

OK, let me go unearth the cable diagrams - or I suppose I could just 
look
at a cable, I have a couple of mostly-finished ones on the workbench 
at the

moment! :-)

Noel

Thanks
Jim

Re: PDP 11/03

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jim S

> I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade,
> and I'm not sure if one card will do it.
> I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up
> processor card. I also have several serial cards, and some memory.

Then you should have all you need to run a minimal system; CPU, memory and a
serial interface for the console. (In fact, it's possible to run _very_ short
programs with only an 11/23 or /73 CPU card, a serial interface card, and no
memory - put the program in the PAR's! :-)

> if someone has something laying around that would let me just run up to
> a working serial port

Do you mean, a cable? If so, I can hook you up there (not the most robust,
mind, as my supply of pins/shells are cheapo knock-offs, but functional).

What kind of serial card(s) do you have (some take the LSI-11 serial
'standard' 10-pin Berg connector shell, the early ones use the DL11
compatible 40-pin shell), and what's going to be on the non-PDP-11 end
- a PC of some sort?

Noel

PDP 11/03

[jwsmobile]

I've been gathering bits and pieces from recent Ebay purchases and would 
like to see if anyone has a spare 11/03 or 11/23 qbus type box.


I've got quite a few cards, and even a backplane block, but the prices 
on ebay are crazy, and I'd like to check here before doing anything rash.


I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade, and 
I'm not sure if one card will do it.


I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up 
processor card.  I also have several serial cards, and some memory.


that's as far as I have it, and if someone has something laying around 
that would let me just run up to a working serial port I would think 
that would be a good start.


I do have a few fully working larger 11's but they are of no use for 
this exercise, all are unibus, or not compatible with these cards.


If the price isn't too shocking I'd like to buy if possible.
thanks
Jim

Re: PDP 11/03

[Paul Anderson]

I have some M7940 and other DLVs, and a few boxes.  Let me know what all
you need.

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:47 AM, jwsmobile  wrote:

> I've been gathering bits and pieces from recent Ebay purchases and would
> like to see if anyone has a spare 11/03 or 11/23 qbus type box.
>
> I've got quite a few cards, and even a backplane block, but the prices on
> ebay are crazy, and I'd like to check here before doing anything rash.
>
> I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade, and
> I'm not sure if one card will do it.
>
> I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up
> processor card.  I also have several serial cards, and some memory.
>
> that's as far as I have it, and if someone has something laying around
> that would let me just run up to a working serial port I would think that
> would be a good start.
>
> I do have a few fully working larger 11's but they are of no use for this
> exercise, all are unibus, or not compatible with these cards.
>
> If the price isn't too shocking I'd like to buy if possible.
> thanks
> Jim
>
>