RE: Living Computer Museum

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 29 May 2020, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:
Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a 
long pause, that's all.


Thank you for the reassuraance.
We will count on you to keep us informed as things move along.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Jason Howe via cctalk]

On 5/29/20 2:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

On 05/29/2020 03:05 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a 
long pause, that's all.



Well, that's a relief, at least!

Jon
Honestly, I'm less concerned about the equipment itself.  It will either 
be on display again at some future LCM incarnation, or sold off in some 
fashion where interested parties can try to buy it.


The loss of the institution is very sad and I'm mourning that loss, as 
we all are.


Right now, however, I'm mostly worried about my friends who work there. 
They are not only mourning the loss of the place that they've poured 
themselves into for years, but now are also scrambling for economic 
security.  Even during this pandemic, most of us working in the tech 
sector enjoy a truly uncommon level of job security.  Even in the tech 
sector though, the hiring process totally fucked everywhere right now 
and these folks now have to navigate that nightmare.  This is what I'm 
most worried about.


--Jason

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

I was interested in computers from grade 11; that would have been in 1967.
I got my first microcomputer in 1978, a Heathkit H8 - terribly priced here
in Canada. From there I went to the Coleco ADAM. It was essentially an
APPLE II clone, well the OS was. Not sure what has become of ADAM-user
groups and whether any computer history museum mentions it or not!



Happy computing!



Murray  

Re: Living Computer Museum

[John Herron via cctalk]

Derailing a little bit but did the LCM loan things or allow folks to bring
in equipment to fix it get running?  Was sort of curious when hanging out
in their library area thinking it's a lot like all my bookshelves for
things I haven't done but could. I feel like I saw software there also.
Though maybe that would just be piracy if not open source or freeware.

I think what folks don't realize is the amount of big iron that is running
in the vintage server room (which was amazing btw. Love the terminals and
ability to log into so many systems!). Before our goodwill computer musuem
in Austin died (also unfortunate goodwill management not seeing it as a
profit) the curator was eager to have things also hands on. Similar to what
I liked doing at our ex-VCF south(west). Had systems on and enjoyed both
kids and adults getting to play with the hardware and type some things into
basic or play a game on the c64. Given I was right there and did start to
thing I should gather backup systems/hardware but it all went fine.

 - John

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 3:56 PM geneb via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, 29 May 2020, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:
> >
> > Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a
> > long pause, that's all.
> >
>
> It's not you guys we're worried about.  It's those skeezy shitbirds at
> Vulcan that make us nervous. ;)
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/29/2020 03:05 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a long 
pause, that's all.


Well, that's a relief, at least!

Jon

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

A, Rich, now you've gone and taken all the mystery out of it, and the
fun of complaining about something over which we have no control!  Unfair
to Local 12 of the Villains, Thieves, and Scoundrels Union!  :D

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 2:25 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:
>
> Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a long
> pause, that's all.
>
> Rich Alderson
> ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus
> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> 2245 1st Ave S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> Cell: (206) 465-2916
> Desk: (206) 342-2239
>
> http://www.LivingComputers.org/
>

RE: Living Computer Museum

[geneb via cctalk]

On Fri, 29 May 2020, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:


Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a 
long pause, that's all.




It's not you guys we're worried about.  It's those skeezy shitbirds at 
Vulcan that make us nervous. ;)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2020-05-29 4:05 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:
> 
> Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a long 
> pause, that's all.
> 
> 


After one completely out of the blue move, there will be no further
surprises

There is always exactly one surprise

> 
> 
> Rich Alderson
> ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus
> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> 2245 1st Ave S
> Seattle, WA 98134
> 
> Cell: (206) 465-2916
> Desk: (206) 342-2239
> 
> http://www.LivingComputers.org/
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Electronics Plus 
> via cctalk
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:00 AM
> 
> 
> I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and 
> keyboards, and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope 
> those don't wind up in the skip!
> 
> 
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Thank you. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Electronics Plus" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 1:05:17 PM 
Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum 

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds: 

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin. It's a long pause, 
that's all. 




Rich Alderson 
ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus 
Living Computers: Museum + Labs 
2245 1st Ave S 
Seattle, WA 98134 

Cell: (206) 465-2916 
Desk: (206) 342-2239 

http://www.LivingComputers.org/ 



-Original Message- 
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:00 AM 


I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, 
and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't 
wind up in the skip! 



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

RE: Living Computer Museum

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds:

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin.  It's a long 
pause, that's all.




Rich Alderson
ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

Cell: (206) 465-2916
Desk: (206) 342-2239

http://www.LivingComputers.org/



-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via 
cctalk
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:00 AM


I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, 
and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't 
wind up in the skip!



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Living Computer Museum

[ben via cctalk]

On 5/29/2020 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 5/29/20 10:57 AM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:

All this shows me is that in principal people will pick the extreme ends
of a topic to fight about but in reality once you get into specifics and
details most people are really in the middle and tend to agree on what
should be done (in most cases).

You can argue to the point of violence if a glass of water is half empty
or half full but everybody will agree there is water in the cup (and
then argue over the definition of a cup).


Being from Blefuscu, I prefer to break my eggs on the large end.

--Chuck


I tend to break them in the middle. Ben.

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/29/20 10:57 AM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
> All this shows me is that in principal people will pick the extreme ends
> of a topic to fight about but in reality once you get into specifics and
> details most people are really in the middle and tend to agree on what
> should be done (in most cases).
> 
> You can argue to the point of violence if a glass of water is half empty
> or half full but everybody will agree there is water in the cup (and
> then argue over the definition of a cup).

Being from Blefuscu, I prefer to break my eggs on the large end.

--Chuck

Re: Living Computer Museum

[TeoZ via cctalk]

All this shows me is that in principal people will pick the extreme ends of 
a topic to fight about but in reality once you get into specifics and 
details most people are really in the middle and tend to agree on what 
should be done (in most cases).


You can argue to the point of violence if a glass of water is half empty or 
half full but everybody will agree there is water in the cup (and then argue 
over the definition of a cup).


People are funny.

-Original Message- 
From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 11:57 AM
To: 'Daniel Seagraves' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum




-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves
via cctalk
Sent: 29 May 2020 14:04
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 


Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum

I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just 
wanna

make sure I have everything down...

0: If you sent anything to a museum, you’ve been fleeced - you’re an 
idiot.
1: If you didn’t send anything to a museum, you’re a hoarder - you’re an 
idiot.
2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full 
of

idiots.
3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep 
out

the idiots.
4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will 
prioritize

long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability.
5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will
prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical 
stability.

6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re an asshole.
7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re 
a

coward.
10: I’m not an idiot, you’re an idiot.
11: No, I’m not an idiot, YOU’RE an idiot!
12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all.

Sound good?=


I was thinking pretty much the same thing and I think it just shows how 
futile some threads are, although I am sure that wherever you stand on the 
arguments above, everyone will agree that the loss of the LCM is a major 
blow. 



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

RE: Living Computer Museum

[Electronics Plus via cctalk]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt 
via cctalk
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 10:57 AM
To: 'Daniel Seagraves'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum



> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves
> via cctalk
> Sent: 29 May 2020 14:04
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum
>
> I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just wanna
> make sure I have everything down...
>
> 0: If you sent anything to a museum, you’ve been fleeced - you’re an idiot.
> 1: If you didn’t send anything to a museum, you’re a hoarder - you’re an 
> idiot.
> 2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full of
> idiots.
> 3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep out
> the idiots.
> 4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will prioritize
> long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability.
> 5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will
> prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical stability.
> 6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re an asshole.
> 7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re a
> coward.
> 10: I’m not an idiot, you’re an idiot.
> 11: No, I’m not an idiot, YOU’RE an idiot!
> 12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all.
>
> Sound good?=

I was thinking pretty much the same thing and I think it just shows how futile 
some threads are, although I am sure that wherever you stand on the arguments 
above, everyone will agree that the loss of the LCM is a major blow.

I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, 
and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't 
wind up in the skip!



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

RE: Living Computer Museum

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves
> via cctalk
> Sent: 29 May 2020 14:04
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum
> 
> I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just wanna
> make sure I have everything down...
> 
> 0: If you sent anything to a museum, you’ve been fleeced - you’re an idiot.
> 1: If you didn’t send anything to a museum, you’re a hoarder - you’re an 
> idiot.
> 2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full of
> idiots.
> 3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep out
> the idiots.
> 4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will prioritize
> long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability.
> 5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will
> prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical stability.
> 6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re an asshole.
> 7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re a
> coward.
> 10: I’m not an idiot, you’re an idiot.
> 11: No, I’m not an idiot, YOU’RE an idiot!
> 12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all.
> 
> Sound good?=

I was thinking pretty much the same thing and I think it just shows how futile 
some threads are, although I am sure that wherever you stand on the arguments 
above, everyone will agree that the loss of the LCM is a major blow.

Re: Living Computer Museum

[geneb via cctalk]

On Fri, 29 May 2020, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote:


I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just wanna 
make sure I have everything down...

0: If you sent anything to a museum, you’ve been fleeced - you’re an idiot.
1: If you didn’t send anything to a museum, you’re a hoarder - you’re an idiot.
2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full of 
idiots.
3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep out 
the idiots.
4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will prioritize 
long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability.
5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will 
prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical stability.
6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re an asshole.
7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re a 
coward.
10: I’m not an idiot, you’re an idiot.
11: No, I’m not an idiot, YOU’RE an idiot!
12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all.



I may be an idiot according to #12, but at least I'm an *entertained* 
idiot! \o/


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Living Computer Museum

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 08:04 AM 5/29/2020, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote:
>I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just 
>wanna make sure I have everything down...

"Anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone 
going faster than you is a maniac" - George Carlin

- John

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Daniel Seagraves via cctalk]

I’ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I’ve been busy; Just wanna 
make sure I have everything down...

0: If you sent anything to a museum, you’ve been fleeced - you’re an idiot.
1: If you didn’t send anything to a museum, you’re a hoarder - you’re an idiot.
2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full of 
idiots.
3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep out 
the idiots.
4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will prioritize 
long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability.
5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will 
prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical stability.
6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re an asshole.
7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you’re a 
coward.
10: I’m not an idiot, you’re an idiot.
11: No, I’m not an idiot, YOU’RE an idiot!
12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all.

Sound good?

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Eric Smith wrote:
> When we restored the PDP-1 at CHM, we *really* wanted to make sure
> that the public could interact with it, though in a limited
> fashion. Ken Sumrall and I built quick-and-dirty Spacewar control
> boxes out of particle board and arcade switches, which were intended
> for restoration team use, and we originally thought that we would
> later build some "more authentic" control boxes. (The control boxes
> used in Boston had disappeared, and in any case we don't know whether
> they were "original".) However, Steve Russell (author of the Spacewar
> game) pointed out that our hastily knocked together control boxes
> actually were "authentic" in the sense that the originals were also
> hastily knocked together out of whatever was at hand.

Random tidbit.  I heard from Richard Greenblatt the PDP-1 Spacewar
consoles (original or not, I don't know) had a really great feel, and
when Spacewar was ported to the PDP-6 the new consoles were not as good.
Asking around about this, Michael Beeler said he make the PDP-6 consoles
and conceded the original consoles were better.

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 28, 2020, at 5:25 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> So depressingly true. I run the little museum in Google's NYC office.
> I've had a bunch of working 80's-90's era machines and workstations on
> display, but they require constant repair because people are too lazy or
> entitled to treat them with care

At the fruit company there are a few such employee-curated displays but so far 
as I know we’ve never had such problems. Of course, there’s also the fact that 
only employees have access. (And even before the phone, when some guests were 
allowed in some areas, they had to be personally escorted at all times.)

Back during the mid-1990s there was a small “museum” display by the cafeteria 
of some inactive hardware under glass, and there was also a big lab of our 
products from every era off the engineering support library upstairs in the 
same building. That lab was more like LCM in that you could just go to it and 
work with anything; it was maintained by the engineering support library and 
only accessible to employees, so that’s probably why it never had serious 
problems with people breaking or stealing things.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Tony Aiuto via cctalk]

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer
> History Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact
> with *everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has
> been about interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving
> out a large amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a
> lot of great preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really
> feels like a glaring omission.
>
> The problem is that the public wrecks stuff. Big time. And they steal
> stuff. Just for the thrill. Even just the stupidest little thing, like
> a keycap.
>

So depressingly true. I run the little museum in Google's NYC office.
I've had a bunch of working 80's-90's era machines and workstations on
display, but they require constant repair because people are too lazy or
entitled to treat them with care
- people erase boot disks
- they bring in children as visitors and let them pound the keys until they
break
- the open cabinets and pull out trays marked "DO NOT OPEN. IT WILL GET
STUCK".
Do you know what? Once a week I have to go and close chassis that is stuck
open.
- They drop and crack any artifacts in a glass display case (I now encase
boards in plexiglass frames) and then stick them out of sight - despite our
blameless "if you see something, report it" policy.
- They drop broken old hardware off - anonymously.
- They want me to take the stuff from their basement and do the work to
make it displayable - while promising that people won't break it.

When colleagues ask about setting up displays in their offices I tell them
not to. It is 10x more work than they think, and frustrating to receive
rare and interesting items that you know will be ruined.


A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS),
> and dealt with the radars. I was warned about people stealing stuff.
> One night I was in the ET shack (radar technician compartment) - a
> small room maybe 15 by 5 feet. Normally locked with a USN padlock, I
> was at the bench with a radar scope, door unlocked so visitors could
> come in and ask questions. I left the padlock open and hanging from
> the latch. Yup, some kid stile the lock.
>

It might not have been a kid. Adults are often class one miscreants.


> So yes, every museum must weigh public interaction against artifact
> damage, and what is the mission of the museum. CHM is more
> conservative, LCM more liberal*. I think it is good to have both
> sides.
>

There was a great bit in a "Most Interesting Man in the World" commercial
"When he goes to museums, he is allowed to touch the art."


>
> --
> Will
>
> * 100 percent not political, but in the more classic sense. If you
> bring this up politically, I will shit down your throat.
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2020-05-28 5:02 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>> You know, in general I don't disagree with this statement, but I'll go on 
>> record here and say that in my 5 years at LCM, I don't recall a single 
>> keycap going missing, or anything getting stolen.
> 
> Good fortune, maybe!
> 
> On another ship I sometime volunteer on (DE-766 SLATER), someone stole
> a piece of silverware from the officer's ward room (the dining room,
> basically)., Yes, just a knife or fork or whatever... but gone
> forever.

If that annoys you, imagine a whole museum going missing overnight.

> 
> --
> Will
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

yep  the  theft  part is always  present and very aggravating  many things  are 
 just  best  kept  behind glass  and   you  can open  the  sliding  8 footer on 
 the  side of display and  and  let  someone go in and  play if  they are 
deserving sometimes... Keeps  the  dust off too...   Ed#


In a message dated 5/28/2020 1:36:18 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

> This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer 
> History Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact 
> with *everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has 
> been about interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving 
> out a large amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a lot 
> of great preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really feels 
> like a glaring omission.

The problem is that the public wrecks stuff. Big time. And they steal
stuff. Just for the thrill. Even just the stupidest little thing, like
a keycap.

A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS),
and dealt with the radars. I was warned about people stealing stuff.
One night I was in the ET shack (radar technician compartment) - a
small room maybe 15 by 5 feet. Normally locked with a USN padlock, I
was at the bench with a radar scope, door unlocked so visitors could
come in and ask questions. I left the padlock open and hanging from
the latch. Yup, some kid stile the lock.

So yes, every museum must weigh public interaction against artifact
damage, and what is the mission of the museum. CHM is more
conservative, LCM more liberal*. I think it is good to have both
sides.

--
Will

* 100 percent not political, but in the more classic sense. If you
bring this up politically, I will shit down your throat.

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 2:20 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer
> History Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact
> with *everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has
> been about interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving
> out a large amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a
> lot of great preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really
> feels like a glaring omission.
>

When we restored the PDP-1 at CHM, we *really* wanted to make sure that the
public could interact with it, though in a limited fashion. Ken Sumrall and
I built quick-and-dirty Spacewar control boxes out of particle board and
arcade switches, which were intended for restoration team use, and we
originally thought that we would later build some "more authentic" control
boxes. (The control boxes used in Boston had disappeared, and in any case
we don't know whether they were "original".) However, Steve Russell (author
of the Spacewar game) pointed out that our hastily knocked together control
boxes actually were "authentic" in the sense that the originals were also
hastily knocked together out of whatever was at hand.

It would certainly be nice if there was a practical way to allow more
hands-on use of the PDP-1, but I can't think of any way of doing that which
CHM would be likely to approve, and I don't disagree with them. It's
somewhat difficult to keep the machine in good working order even when only
a few skilled people operate it.

Eric

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Good fortune, maybe!

On another ship I sometime volunteer on (DE-766 SLATER), someone stole
a piece of silverware from the officer's ward room (the dining room,
basically)., Yes, just a knife or fork or whatever... but gone
forever.


Perhaps it is the audience of people who attend these different museums?



--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> You know, in general I don't disagree with this statement, but I'll go on 
> record here and say that in my 5 years at LCM, I don't recall a single keycap 
> going missing, or anything getting stolen.

Good fortune, maybe!

On another ship I sometime volunteer on (DE-766 SLATER), someone stole
a piece of silverware from the officer's ward room (the dining room,
basically)., Yes, just a knife or fork or whatever... but gone
forever.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer
> History Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact
> with *everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has
> been about interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving
> out a large amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a
> lot of great preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really
> feels like a glaring omission.
>
> The problem is that the public wrecks stuff. Big time. And they steal
> stuff. Just for the thrill. Even just the stupidest little thing, like
> a keycap.
>

You know, in general I don't disagree with this statement, but I'll go on
record here and say that in my 5 years at LCM, I don't recall a single
keycap going missing, or anything getting stolen.  Nor were any switches
broken off of the various front-panel systems.  Teletypes did occasionally
need repair, but that's par for the course for those.  People seemed to
have a good deal of respect for our equipment, and yes, sometimes kids did
get a bit rough but you'd be surprised what your average C64 can put up
with.

We had consumables for things like joysticks and mice that would tend to
get more abuse, but the only things that tended to break incredibly
frequently were the modern tech devices on the 1st floor.  No end of
trouble with those.

- Josh



>
> A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS),
> and dealt with the radars. I was warned about people stealing stuff.
> One night I was in the ET shack (radar technician compartment) - a
> small room maybe 15 by 5 feet. Normally locked with a USN padlock, I
> was at the bench with a radar scope, door unlocked so visitors could
> come in and ask questions. I left the padlock open and hanging from
> the latch. Yup, some kid stile the lock.
>
> So yes, every museum must weigh public interaction against artifact
> damage, and what is the mission of the museum. CHM is more
> conservative, LCM more liberal*. I think it is good to have both
> sides.
>
> --
> Will
>
> * 100 percent not political, but in the more classic sense. If you
> bring this up politically, I will shit down your throat.
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer 
> History Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact 
> with *everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has 
> been about interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving 
> out a large amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a lot 
> of great preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really feels 
> like a glaring omission.

The problem is that the public wrecks stuff. Big time. And they steal
stuff. Just for the thrill. Even just the stupidest little thing, like
a keycap.

A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS),
and dealt with the radars. I was warned about people stealing stuff.
One night I was in the ET shack (radar technician compartment) - a
small room maybe 15 by 5 feet. Normally locked with a USN padlock, I
was at the bench with a radar scope, door unlocked so visitors could
come in and ask questions. I left the padlock open and hanging from
the latch. Yup, some kid stile the lock.

So yes, every museum must weigh public interaction against artifact
damage, and what is the mission of the museum. CHM is more
conservative, LCM more liberal*. I think it is good to have both
sides.

--
Will

* 100 percent not political, but in the more classic sense. If you
bring this up politically, I will shit down your throat.

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 28, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Robert Harrison via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know what it would take to sustain the museum until it can 
> reopen? Are tickets a major source of income? 
> This is the first I have heard of the museum, so I don’t know much about it, 
> but it sounds like something worthy to try to save.

LCM+L is owned and operated by Paul Allen’s $20 billion estate. They are not 
hurting for cash, though I’m certain some bean-counter at Vulcan sees 
continuing its operations during the pandemic as a drain on resources. 
Management by the numbers.

The actual Living Computer Museum + Labs was *great* to visit, and from the 
outside worked exactly like you would expect a museum about computing history 
to work: A visitor to the museum could actually *interact* with most of the 
systems they had, they weren’t just displaying static artifacts behind a velvet 
rope or pane of glass with a placard describing them. The stuff you couldn’t 
interact with directly you could still interact with through terminals and even 
the Internet.

This is one of the things that disappointed me most about the Computer History 
Museum in Mountain View, CA. Sure you can’t let the public interact with 
*everything*, but since so much of computing since its inception has been about 
interaction with active systems, just displaying them is leaving out a large 
amount of what really makes them interesting. The CHM does a lot of great 
preservation, archival, and curatorial work, but this really feels like a 
glaring omission.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Robert Harrison via cctalk]

If museums allowed for all donations without prior approval, they would have to 
build a receiving dock and warehouse. A simple contact takes care of the 
problem.
The museums website should include a section on their donation policy to make 
it easier. What they may accept, what they won’t, who to contact, etc.


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 5/28/20 7:52 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>> Dumpsters ain't cheap.
> 
> s/Dumpsters/EWASTE disposal/
> 
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Robert Harrison via cctalk]

Does anyone know what it would take to sustain the museum until it can reopen? 
Are tickets a major source of income? 
This is the first I have heard of the museum, so I don’t know much about it, 
but it sounds like something worthy to try to save.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 1:30 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctech  
> wrote:
> 
> I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> actually means.
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Do tell.

"Normal" museums do not assign values to artifacts, and are very much
against (for the most part) buying artifacts directly, as doing so
basically assigns numeric values. This is to discourage "pot hunting",
named so after the looters of antiquities.

Art museums generally do not have issues with the money involved. They
have no problems bending the rules.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 28, 2020, at 10:31 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
>> Loans are standard practice in art museums, from other museums as well as 
>> from private collections.  Perhaps not so much in science/technology museums.
> 
> Art museums work under a different set of rules and ethics than other museums.

Do tell.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[TeoZ via cctalk]

They would have to when items can be worth millions each and are one of a 
kind.


-Original Message- 
From: William Donzelli via cctalk

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 1:31 PM
To: Paul Koning ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum

Loans are standard practice in art museums, from other museums as well as 
from private collections.  Perhaps not so much in science/technology 
museums.


Art museums work under a different set of rules and ethics than other 
museums.


--
Will 



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Loans are standard practice in art museums, from other museums as well as 
> from private collections.  Perhaps not so much in science/technology museums.

Art museums work under a different set of rules and ethics than other museums.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> 
> On 2020-05-28 4:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>>> ...
>> 
>> Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It’s a lot of admin. 
>> If the original owner dies what happens.
>> Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is 
>> working and it breaks.
>> A lot of hassle and risk.

Loans are standard practice in art museums, from other museums as well as from 
private collections.  Perhaps not so much in science/technology museums.  I do 
know of an example, though: the Electrologica X8 on display at the Boerhaave 
Museum in Leiden (Netherlands) is a loan, from the Electrologica Foundation.

paul

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/28/20 7:52 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

Dumpsters ain't cheap.


s/Dumpsters/EWASTE disposal/

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2020-05-28 4:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via
>> cctalk
>> Sent: 28 May 2020 04:54
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> 
>> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum
>>
>> On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
>>> don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
>>> you loaned.
>>
>> It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be
>> fundamentally winnable when there’s explicitly no transfer of ownership.
>>
>> That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don’t take loans; they may
>> want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces
>> returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so
>> on.
>>
>>   -- Chris
> 
> Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It’s a lot of admin. If 
> the original owner dies what happens.
> Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is 
> working and it breaks.
> A lot of hassle and risk.


We must certainly not put a very very very very well endowed museum to
any effort in the matter of museuming

After all they might need to suddenly evaporate any moment for any reason


> 
> Dave
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 28, 2020, at 9:49 AM, Bill Degnan  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:14 AM Paul Koning via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> Also remember that museums don't necessarily honor contracts, and when they 
> don't, courts may fail to enforce them.  There was a notorious case a few 
> years ago involving a museum created by a bequest that required it to be 
> remain located in whatever town it was founded in (a small town in PA, I 
> think).  At some point the people running the museum decided they didn't like 
> that and moved it to another city (Philadelphia?).  The descendants of the 
> benefactor sued for breach of contract, and lost.  I forgot what fancy BS the 
> courts used to justify their decision, but in some lawyerly fashion they did.
> 
> paul
> 
> What museum was that?
> 
> Bill 

The Barnes Collection, from Merion, PA to Philadelphia, 2004.

paul

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Much of the effort of running a thrift store is disposal of
> donated material that has no rapid resale value.

And cost. Dumpsters ain't cheap.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

Much of the effort of running a thrift store is disposal of
donated material that has no rapid resale value.
- John


Like all the vintage computers that must flow into Goodwill locations 
everywhere... that Dell then disposes of somehow?


- Ethan


--
: Ethan O'Toole

Re: Living Computer Museum

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 09:25 AM 5/28/2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>Nothing like asking people to jump thru hoops before you let them
>do you a favor.  :-)

Much of the effort of running a thrift store is disposal of 
donated material that has no rapid resale value.

- John

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> If you want something nice, I can send you a few pallets of broken LCDs.
> They're all really rare - I've never seen ones with the same serial number
> on them.
>
> Don't worry, I won't ask first. ;-)

You pay for shipping, and I'll take them!

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Thu, May 28, 2020, 10:25 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/28/20 9:53 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> >> Why would I do that?  I had something people said was rare.
> >
> > Museums with a lot of "gravity" (like LCM) tend to get offered a *lot*
> > of REALLY RARE items, like broken C64s, Packard Bell desktops, boxes
> > of ten year old games on CD-ROM, dirty USB keyboards, 56K Sportsters,
> > and so forth.
> >
> > Yeah, super rare stuff like that.
> >
> > This is why museums ask that donors check before dropping off a load a
> > REALLY RARE items at the museum. A simple email is all it takes.
> >
>
> Nothing like asking people to jump thru hoops before you let them
> do you a favor.  :-)
>

If you want something nice, I can send you a few pallets of broken LCDs.
They're all really rare - I've never seen ones with the same serial number
on them.

Don't worry, I won't ask first. ;-)

Pat

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/28/20 9:53 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

Why would I do that?  I had something people said was rare.


Museums with a lot of "gravity" (like LCM) tend to get offered a *lot*
of REALLY RARE items, like broken C64s, Packard Bell desktops, boxes
of ten year old games on CD-ROM, dirty USB keyboards, 56K Sportsters,
and so forth.

Yeah, super rare stuff like that.

This is why museums ask that donors check before dropping off a load a
REALLY RARE items at the museum. A simple email is all it takes.



Nothing like asking people to jump thru hoops before you let them
do you a favor.  :-)

bill

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Why would I do that?  I had something people said was rare.

Museums with a lot of "gravity" (like LCM) tend to get offered a *lot*
of REALLY RARE items, like broken C64s, Packard Bell desktops, boxes
of ten year old games on CD-ROM, dirty USB keyboards, 56K Sportsters,
and so forth.

Yeah, super rare stuff like that.

This is why museums ask that donors check before dropping off a load a
REALLY RARE items at the museum. A simple email is all it takes.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:14 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Also remember that museums don't necessarily honor contracts, and when
> they don't, courts may fail to enforce them.  There was a notorious case a
> few years ago involving a museum created by a bequest that required it to
> be remain located in whatever town it was founded in (a small town in PA, I
> think).  At some point the people running the museum decided they didn't
> like that and moved it to another city (Philadelphia?).  The descendants of
> the benefactor sued for breach of contract, and lost.  I forgot what fancy
> BS the courts used to justify their decision, but in some lawyerly fashion
> they did.
>
> paul
>
>
>
What museum was that?

Bill

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/28/20 9:18 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

I once sent them some rather rare documentation (at the suggestion of
other collectors).  I got back a letter with a nasty tone stating they
do not accept unsolicited items.  I have no idea what that meant as to
the continued existence of the item.  It certainly did not come back
to me.


Why did you not ask them first?



Why would I do that?  I had something people said was rare.  I
needed to do something with it.  Suggestions were send it to
the museum.  I have given stuff to other, much smaller museums
in the past that were happily accepted.  Why would you refuse
to accept something given with no strings and even worse send
the donor a nasty letter?


Result is I will never donate anything again.  Who is the loser?

bill

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I once sent them some rather rare documentation (at the suggestion of
> other collectors).  I got back a letter with a nasty tone stating they
> do not accept unsolicited items.  I have no idea what that meant as to
> the continued existence of the item.  It certainly did not come back
> to me.

Why did you not ask them first?

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

Also remember that museums don't necessarily honor contracts, and when they 
don't, courts may fail to enforce them.  There was a notorious case a few years 
ago involving a museum created by a bequest that required it to be remain 
located in whatever town it was founded in (a small town in PA, I think).  At 
some point the people running the museum decided they didn't like that and 
moved it to another city (Philadelphia?).  The descendants of the benefactor 
sued for breach of contract, and lost.  I forgot what fancy BS the courts used 
to justify their decision, but in some lawyerly fashion they did.

paul


> On May 27, 2020, at 11:02 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> That wasn’t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn’t accept 
> items on loan.
> 
> alan 
> 
>> On May 27, 2020, at 19:33, Chris Hanson via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions 
>> and instead lend hardware to them.
>> 
>> At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if 
>> they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don’t like.
>> 
>> -- Chris
>> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/27/20 11:02 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

That wasn’t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn’t accept 
items on loan.



I once sent them some rather rare documentation (at the suggestion of
other collectors).  I got back a letter with a nasty tone stating they
do not accept unsolicited items.  I have no idea what that meant as to
the continued existence of the item.  It certainly did not come back
to me.

bill

Re: Living Computer Museum

[corey cohen via cctalk]

I manage the finance for the VCF Museum and our shows, which means I also deal 
with our “artifact loans”.   It is a lot of paperwork.  Only “special” items 
are worth the hassle.

As for museums closing… Its tough when you can’t have visitors who help pay for 
the day to day operational costs with the admission price and many of those 
visitors become potential sponsors. 

For us at VCF, this isn’t so bad because we don’t take any regular admission 
money from InfoAge (our parent museum) and are exclusively volunteers which 
allows us to have a much lower overhead than traditional museums like LCM. VCF 
is also an independent 501c3 charity which means there is a lot of help out 
there to keep our doors open and we also planned for rainy days.   I can tell 
you that we had big plans for our shows this year, but so far two of those 
shows (including one at LCM) had to be moved to virtual thanks to Covid-19 so 
we are now in rainy day territory, but we actually planned for a monsoon, so we 
will be fine. 

Museums like LCM that aren’t quite a fully independent 501c3 charity yet (I 
think they had plans for this before Covid) will have trouble as their parent 
corporations look to save money.   Hopefully LCM can make the transition and 
spread their support base out to the public, who I think are very appreciative 
of their mission.

Cheers,
Corey


> On May 28, 2020, at 4:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via
>> cctalk
>> Sent: 28 May 2020 04:54
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> 
>> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum
>> 
>> On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
>>> don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
>>> you loaned.
>> 
>> It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be
>> fundamentally winnable when there’s explicitly no transfer of ownership.
>> 
>> That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don’t take loans; they may
>> want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces
>> returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so
>> on.
>> 
>>  -- Chris
> 
> Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It’s a lot of admin. If 
> the original owner dies what happens.
> Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is 
> working and it breaks.
> A lot of hassle and risk.
> 
> Dave
> 

RE: Living Computer Museum

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via
> cctalk
> Sent: 28 May 2020 04:54
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum
> 
> On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr 
> wrote:
> >
> > I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
> > don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
> > you loaned.
> 
> It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be
> fundamentally winnable when there’s explicitly no transfer of ownership.
> 
> That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don’t take loans; they may
> want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces
> returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so
> on.
> 
>   -- Chris

Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It’s a lot of admin. If 
the original owner dies what happens.
Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is 
working and it breaks.
A lot of hassle and risk.

Dave

Re: Living Computer Museum

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

His sister now runs his companies and has been dismantling his dreams. She
already wrecked his space launch company.

On Thu, 28 May 2020, 00:29 Ethan O'Toole via cctalk, 
wrote:

> > Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat
> > and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath.
> > Mike
>
> That place was funded by Paul Allen right? I would have thought it would
> have been setup to last many years.
>
> - Ethan
>
>
> --
> : Ethan O'Toole
>
>
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 5/27/20 9:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
The big problem with this situation is that it’s simply unnecessary: 
Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan 
can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and 
working from home indefinitely.


Did Vulcan have a lot of exposure to real estate? Real estate has been a 
huge asset bubble for a long time now. Covid is a perfect excuse for it 
popping, even though it's been long overdue for a while. If Vulcan is 
taking a hit or predicting they are going to take a hit then managers 
might axe all the creative stuff so they don't miss any bonuses.


Vulcan is reported to have pulled the plug on their entertainment 
division (Vulcan Arts + Entertainment). Also part of this is the Flying 
Heritage and Combat Armor Museum and they put out an announcement almost 
identical to the LCM+L announcement. The Seattle Cinerama theater and 
Seattle Art Fair are caught up in this as well. I don't know if the 
MoPOP (formerly the Experience Music Project, the Science Fiction 
Museum, and Science Fiction & Fantasy Hall of Fame, which occupied the 
same building) is part of this.


alan

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Michael Mulhern via cctalk]

I live in hope for the tag “for now”.  It’s always my first place to visit
when I fly in to the west coast.

//m

On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 9:58 am, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.
> >
> > A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
> > confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
> > points that they are allowed to by government order.
> >
> > It is unfortunate for the paid staff.
> >
> > --
> > Will
> >
>
> Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary.  The artifacts are not going
> anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool
> and prepare to re-open a-fresh
> b
>
-- 


*Blog: RetroRetrospective – Fun today with yesterday's gear……..
*
*Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host)

Re: Living Computer Museum

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/27/2020 8:53 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:

On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr  wrote:

I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
you loaned.

It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be fundamentally 
winnable when there’s explicitly no transfer of ownership.
I'm in the process of signing a deed of trust assigning title and 
ownership to the CHM in Mountain View of a donation.  I did so with a 
previous donation.


You have to consign them to history and hope the institution can sustain 
the trust they have to do so.


I've talked with one friend there, and am very sad.  Saw another early 
friend's post on Facebook, who is very sad as well.


thanks
Jim

That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don’t take loans; they may want 
to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces returned, or 
dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so on.

   -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

The big problem with this situation is that it’s simply unnecessary: 
Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan 
can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and 
working from home indefinitely.


Did Vulcan have a lot of exposure to real estate? Real estate has been a 
huge asset bubble for a long time now. Covid is a perfect excuse for it 
popping, even though it's been long overdue for a while. If Vulcan is 
taking a hit or predicting they are going to take a hit then managers 
might axe all the creative stuff so they don't miss any bonuses.



- Ethan

Re: Living Computer Museum

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

yikes  that almost  has  a tome  of  finality  to it  eh?
Ed#
In a message dated 5/27/2020 3:11:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

https://www.livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx



On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:02 AM Chris Zach via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is
> there. Just let me know.
>
> C
>
> On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
> > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> > suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> > actually means.
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

most museums  of  all  varieties  are  closed  still  the  smart  ones  
will remain  so  for  a  while  longer...the foolish will jump  the  gun.Ed#
sdIn a message dated 5/27/2020 2:57:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:

> I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> actually means.
>
They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr  wrote:
> 
> I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
> don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
> you loaned.

It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be fundamentally 
winnable when there’s explicitly no transfer of ownership.

That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don’t take loans; they may want 
to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces returned, or 
dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so on.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk]

Alan Perry wrote on Wed, 27 May 2020 20:02:06 -0700
> That wasn't an option for most folks. They told me that they didn't accept 
> items on loan.
> 
> alan 
> 
> > On May 27, 2020, at 19:33, Chris Hanson wrote:
> > 
> > This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions 
> > and instead lend hardware to them.
> > 
> > At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if 
> > they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don't like.
> > 
> >  -- Chris
> > 

I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who
don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff
you loaned.

A while back people were pressuring me to donate my stuff to the local
university's computer museum (which I was helping). I knew that most of
the professors were hostile to it (the idea is that history is
irrelevant for computer science) and that the direction of the museum
would change hands every two years. The things that happened since
proved I was right to hold on to my stuff.

-- Jecel

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 27, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Alan Perry  wrote:
> 
> That wasn’t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn’t accept 
> items on loan.

Well, that really sucks.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

That wasn’t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn’t accept 
items on loan.

alan 

> On May 27, 2020, at 19:33, Chris Hanson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions 
> and instead lend hardware to them.
> 
> At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if 
> they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don’t like.
> 
>  -- Chris
> 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

The big problem with this situation is that it’s simply unnecessary: Living 
Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan can *easily* 
afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and working from home 
indefinitely.

This is happening entirely because the people holding the pursestrings have no 
idea how to run a museum, or even what a museum *does*. It’s pretty clear that 
they think they can just pack things away for a while, then hire a few people 
to take tickets and put out exhbits when they decide to reopen, without any 
consideration to the kind of historical preservation work the museum is in the 
process of doing or even what might need to be done to prepare exhibits for 
public access, what it means to be ready to obtain, receive, and preserve 
newly-uncovered historical artifacts, and so on.

https://twitter.com/eschaton/status/1265751114953011200

A group of people who actually understand (like Woz and Gates et al) should 
step in, take it off Vulcan’s hands, and endow it as an independent entity. And 
people should stop donating their collections to museums and lend them instead.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions and 
instead lend hardware to them.

At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if they 
fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don’t like.

  -- Chris

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:23 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate
> > because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not).
>
> Yes, for people that had no "exit strategy", but somehow I think Paul
> Allen did some sort of estate planning before he passed...
>
> --
> Will
>

What is disturbing and perhaps not surprising that the people at the top
have no interest in the museum.  For them, shut it down for now allows for
the more important stuff to be dealt with first.  Big picture it's not
important relative to other things like professional sports teams and
islands in the Pacific.

b

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate
> because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not).

Yes, for people that had no "exit strategy", but somehow I think Paul
Allen did some sort of estate planning before he passed...

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[TeoZ via cctalk]

They probably don't know.

Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate 
because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not). Any 
charities set up before he passed probably have to live off of what money 
they had on hand before his passing for a few years until the tax guys sign 
off on where the rest of his assets go. And since most of his wealth was in 
things (companies, buildings, stocks, art, etc.) when the taxes are decided 
on things have to be sold to pay for that.



-Original Message- 
From: Guy Sotomayor via cctalk

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:52 PM
To: Paul Koning via cctalk
Subject: Living Computer Museum

I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
actually means.

TTFN - Guy 



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

If you're in South Eastern Pennsylvania, Kennett Classic is open; lean and
mean and I suppose and a 50th of the LCM but open nonetheless (by
appointment).  The sign on the door reads "No shoes, no shirt, no mask- no
service.  I was there all day today.

Currently working to decipher some Honeywell DDP-516 papertapes there, core
memory on a PDP 8e, stuff like that.  Finished repairs on a customer's
C-64's.  Visitors are welcome, kennettclassic.com.

Bill


On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk 
wrote:

> Aw shit
>
> (Where is the nearest U Haul?)
>
> CZ
>
> On 5/27/2020 8:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote:
> > This related story makes the situation a bit scarier.
> >
> >
> https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/
> <
> https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/
> >
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >> On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
>  They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.
> >>>
> >>> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
> >>> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
> >>> points that they are allowed to by government order.
> >>>
> >>> It is unfortunate for the paid staff.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Will
> >>>
> >>
> >> Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary.  The artifacts are not
> going
> >> anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to
> retool
> >> and prepare to re-open a-fresh
> >> b
> >
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Aw shit

(Where is the nearest U Haul?)

CZ

On 5/27/2020 8:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote:

This related story makes the situation a bit scarier.

https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/
 


Ian



On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
wrote:

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.


A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
points that they are allowed to by government order.

It is unfortunate for the paid staff.

--
Will



Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary.  The artifacts are not going
anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool
and prepare to re-open a-fresh
b

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

That’s worrying.  When the Historical Resource Center I was working with in my 
area shutdown a few years ago, Ian came down and collected a U-Haul worth of 
stuff, including part of my personal collection.  What I really regret sending 
up there is a large box of Honeywell DPS-8 documentation from when I worked at 
a DPS-8 Mainframe site.

I believe Richard Alderson is on this list, hopefully he’ll comment on their 
status.

Zane




> On May 27, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> This related story makes the situation a bit scarier.
> 
> https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/
>  
> 
>  
>   
> >
> 
> Ian

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Ian McLaughlin via cctalk]

This related story makes the situation a bit scarier.

https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/
 


Ian


> On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.
>> 
>> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
>> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
>> points that they are allowed to by government order.
>> 
>> It is unfortunate for the paid staff.
>> 
>> --
>> Will
>> 
> 
> Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary.  The artifacts are not going
> anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool
> and prepare to re-open a-fresh
> b

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.
>
> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
> points that they are allowed to by government order.
>
> It is unfortunate for the paid staff.
>
> --
> Will
>

Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary.  The artifacts are not going
anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool
and prepare to re-open a-fresh
b

Re: Living Computer Museum

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.

A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are
confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the
points that they are allowed to by government order.

It is unfortunate for the paid staff.

--
Will

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat
and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath.
Mike


That place was funded by Paul Allen right? I would have thought it would 
have been setup to last many years.


- Ethan


--
: Ethan O'Toole

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Michael Kerpan via cctalk]

Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat
and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath.

Mike

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 6:26 PM Lee Courtney via cctalk 
wrote:

> "In the coming weeks we’ll follow up with information about ticket,
> membership and donation refunds."
>
> The "membership and donation refunds." bothers me the most, especially with
> Paul Allen no longer on the scene.
>
> If LCM were to cease operations permanently that would be a disaster, as
> there is no institution that performs the preservation, restoration, and
> hands-on public education function as well as them. :-(
>
> Lee C.
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> > suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> > actually means.
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
> >
>
> --
> Lee Courtney
> +1-650-704-3934 cell
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Lee Courtney via cctalk]

"In the coming weeks we’ll follow up with information about ticket,
membership and donation refunds."

The "membership and donation refunds." bothers me the most, especially with
Paul Allen no longer on the scene.

If LCM were to cease operations permanently that would be a disaster, as
there is no institution that performs the preservation, restoration, and
hands-on public education function as well as them. :-(

Lee C.

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> actually means.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>

-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Ed C. via cctalk]

https://www.livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx



On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:02 AM Chris Zach via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is
> there. Just let me know.
>
> C
>
> On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
> > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
> > suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> > actually means.
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
>

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is 
there. Just let me know.


C

On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:

I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
actually means.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

On Wed, 2020-05-27 at 14:57 -0700, geneb wrote:
> On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they
> > were
> > suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
> > actually means.
> > 
> 
> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.

That I knew.  It's just that the email that was sent sounded pretty
ominous.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Living Computer Museum

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:


I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were
suspending operations.  It wasn't clear from the email what that
actually means.


They've been closed to visitors since early March I think.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!