Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

Today I received copies of the schematic and parts layout for 
the Nova 3 panel from Peter Simpson.  I believe Perer also 
sent a copy to bitsavers.  Thanks Peter!!


The correct part number for the bulbs is 014-02, which 
makes it a CM2176 equivalent.  The CM2176 has only a 1000 
hour expected lifetime.


Reviewing the specs for the CM2185 and CM2187 which were 
proposed as replacements, the CM2187 is the better fit.  Both 
bulbs would be noticeably dimmer than the originals, with the 
CM2187 about 34% as bright.  The CM2187 bulbs powered by 
24V can be expected to last 44+ thousand hours.


If a bright bulb is desired, the CM8361 is closer, but it would
draw 60 mA instead of the 50 mA of the original bulb.  (Even 
so, it would still be only 76% as bright as the original.)


Mouser also has the JKL version of the CM7001, which has the 
correct electrical and brightness specs, but is a bi-pin bulb, 
rather than wire terminal.  (Also only lasts 2000 hours.)


Hope this is helping.

   Vince 

RE: Nova 3 front panel

[Henk Gooijen]

Van: jim stephens

RE: Nova 3 front panel

[Henk Gooijen]

Van: jim stephens

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: jim stephens: Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:41 AM
I was looking at this sale on ebay from Vince's part number.  Also it is a US 
shipping source, so may not save Henk anything.  But it is the lowest cost I 
found around.


10-PACK-Bulb-for-MINIATURE-LAMP-2187D-LAMP-28VOLTS-1-12WATTS

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152150229625


That price of $2+ per bulb is high, but the bulbs used to retail for
prices like that.  They were scarce, being replaced by LEDs or whatever,
and they just weren't making them anymore.

The Mouser prices and inventory seem to indicate that this has changed,
unless Mouser just has them on clearance or something.  (Maybe 28V
happens to still have demand?)

The Mouser sale for the CM2187 (think that may be the above ebay part) shows 
it a 28v lamp, 44 cents, and 3000+ in stock.


The CM2185 has a longer life (but half as bright) and is $0.35 qty 1.  Qty 10 is
more likely, so $0.32 vs .40 for the CM2187.  Either way it is pretty 
reasonable.


Not sure why the ebay sale is for so much, but Mouser looks like the place to 
buy if there isn't a minimum order amount or bad shipping / service fee costs 
from Mouser.


Agreed.  Shipping is probably $6 to $12 in the USA, and I don't see any
a minimum order.

   Vince 

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 23, 2016, at 2:41 PM, jim stephens  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/23/2016 10:57 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>> From: Henk Gooijen: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:36 AM
>>> Somebody knows of a source for 28V 40 mA “grain” bulbs with wires?
>>> I could use some 10 … and 20 as spare 
>> 
> 
> The Mouser sale for the CM2187 (think that may be the above ebay part) shows 
> it a 28v lamp, 44 cents, and 3000+ in stock.   Not sure why the ebay sale is 
> for so much, but Mouser looks like the place to buy if there isn't a minimum 
> order amount or bad shipping / service fee costs from Mouser.

Mouser and its competitor Digikey are both large and well established 
electronic parts distributors.  They may have a minimum order, or a service 
charge for very small orders, but if so it's probably something modest like 
$25.  And you can go to them for pretty much every electronic part you might 
ever want, at least if it's current production.  I'm not sure about tubes, but 
apart from that...  I've used them both, Digikey more often.  Excellent outfits.

28V lightbulbs should be readily available, after all 28V is standard DC power 
in airplanes.

paul

RE: Nova 3 front panel

[Henk Gooijen]

Van: jim stephens

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[jim stephens]

On 7/23/2016 10:57 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

From: Henk Gooijen: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:36 AM

Somebody knows of a source for 28V 40 mA “grain” bulbs with wires?
I could use some 10 … and 20 as spare 


Mouser has 950 CM2185 bulbs in stock, which should work nicely.
The Netherlands version of the site has the same quantity.  Maybe
ships from the same warehouses?  (Part number 606-CM2185.)

   Vince


Vince, Henk,
I was looking at this sale on ebay from Vince's part number.  Also it is 
a US shipping source, so may not save Henk anything.  But it is the 
lowest cost I found around.


10-PACK-Bulb-for-MINIATURE-LAMP-2187D-LAMP-28VOLTS-1-12WATTS

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152150229625

The Mouser sale for the CM2187 (think that may be the above ebay part) 
shows it a 28v lamp, 44 cents, and 3000+ in stock.   Not sure why the 
ebay sale is for so much, but Mouser looks like the place to buy if 
there isn't a minimum order amount or bad shipping / service fee costs 
from Mouser.

thanks
Jim

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Henk Gooijen: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:36 AM

Somebody knows of a source for 28V 40 mA “grain” bulbs with wires?
I could use some 10 … and 20 as spare 


Mouser has 950 CM2185 bulbs in stock, which should work nicely.
The Netherlands version of the site has the same quantity.  Maybe
ships from the same warehouses?  (Part number 606-CM2185.)

   Vince 

RE: Nova 3 front panel

[Jay West]

Jim;

Thanks for the link... I went up the tree and saw the pics of that ADDS Envoy 
terminal. I'm exceedingly green with envy. Congrats on an awesome piece of kit!

J

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[jim stephens]

On 7/22/2016 10:39 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
I'm not a big fan of the surgery involved in LED conversion, though I 
understand why folks do it.  Particularly if they, like Emil, have 
used the wrong bulbs and found themselves replacing them all the time.
I wouldn't do the surgery, but here's the situation.  Someone already 
used this panel for the source of lamps, or they were all burned out.  
There are only two bulbs left to remove.


The surgery wasn't bad, it doesn't look like there are lifted etch pads, 
so that part is good.  So this one is a good candidate for the 
conversion as any.  I'm not a stickler for historic accuracy, and if 
anyone gets it to use as a running unit, they will hopefully never have 
to open the panel again.


Thanks for the analysis too, that is good to know, as i still have 
1600's with 5v bulbs to deal with.  Luckily the 1600 uses socketed parts 
and the main issue with them is pulling the panels two 50 pin ribbon 
connectors off.  The connectors on the ends of that get worn out.


The Nova has an edge card connector (as does my buddies Eclipse panel) 
so that isn't a problem with this design.  Between the two problems I'll 
take the problem with the connector over the problem with soldering 
lamps any time.


thanks again
Jim

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/07/nova-3-front-panel.html

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
Somewhere, I have Oshino's write-up about bulb rated voltage and bulb 
operating voltage, but I do remember the lifespan varies as some power of 
the ratio, and it makes a huge difference.  (There are also formulae for 
derating brightness, etc.)

I found it -- the lifespan varies as the 12th power of the ratio.
The current varies as the 0.55 power, and the brightness as the 3.5th power 
(of the reciprocal).
So, a 12V bulb in a 28V circuit can expect 1/26000 the lifetime, and will 
take about 1.6X the current to burn about 20X brighter than normal.
A 28V bulb in a 24V circuit would last about 6.3X it's rated lifetime, take 
92% of the rated current, and about 58% as bright.


. . . and that presumably clarifies the "Livermore Firehouse Bulb".

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Jul-22, at 11:00 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
> From: Vincent Slyngstad: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:39 AM
>> Somewhere, I have Oshino's write-up about bulb rated voltage and bulb 
>> operating voltage, but I do remember the lifespan varies as some power of 
>> the ratio, and it makes a huge difference.  (There are also formulae for 
>> derating brightness, etc.)
> 
> I found it -- the lifespan varies as the 12th power of the ratio.
> The current varies as the 0.55 power, and the brightness as the 3.5th power 
> (of the reciprocal).
> 
> So, a 12V bulb in a 28V circuit can expect 1/26000 the lifetime, and will 
> take about 1.6X the current to burn about 20X brighter than normal.
> 
> A 28V bulb in a 24V circuit would last about 6.3X it's rated lifetime, take 
> 92% of the rated current, and about 58% as bright.

Nice to see the data & math on that.

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Bruce Ray]

DG generally used 28V, 0.040 Ma (nominal), fragile wire-lead 
incandescent bulbs for the Nova/SuperNova/Nova2/Nova3 front panels as 
well as the early Eclipses.  The S/130 was DG's first LED-based front 
panel and was much-appreciated by Field Service.


More followup off-list...

Bruce



On 7/21/2016 10:53 PM, jim stephens wrote:

Is there anyone with documents on the Nova 3 front panel, and what
drives it?  It has some number of custom DG chips, which hopefully are
good if I want to try to fire it up to play, but am interested in that
on good authority there are 28v incandescent lamps.

A friend has an Eclipse front panel with nearly identical bezel, which
has LED's and a number of differences in the logic (different connector
to the system, for instance).  So it is probably all run on 5v.

I have not had time to figure out the driver circuit for any of the
lamps to see what that may turn up, and wanted to know whether it was
28v lamps before I buy 40 of them.  (the thing has only 2 out of a lot
of lamps).

Thanks
Jim

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Jul-22, at 10:39 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
> From: jim stephens: Friday, July 22, 2016 12:46 AM
>> On 7/22/2016 12:25 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>>> I mentioned http://www.foxdata.com/blog/tag/nova-312/ to you earlier, which 
>>> suggested the 28V bulbs.  I also found
>>> http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/ledmod.html
>>> which makes it clear that the voltage is likely a fair bit over 12V.
>> Thanks for the tips.  I see that the foxdata site lamps don't appear quite 
>> as bright as the chookfest ones, which is interesting.  I'm thinking now if 
>> I do anything it will be the LED route, so will evaluate that, as I agree 
>> opening the thing back up will suck.
> 
> Those chookfest bulbs are doing just what I'd expect from 12V bulbs in a 28V 
> circuit -- way too bright, and then a drastically shortened lifespan.  (The 
> right bulb can last for years; the wrong one for minutes.)
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the surgery involved in LED conversion, though I 
> understand why folks do it.  Particularly if they, like Emil, have used the 
> wrong bulbs and found themselves replacing them all the time.
> 
> Somewhere, I have Oshino's write-up about bulb rated voltage and bulb 
> operating voltage, but I do remember the lifespan varies as some power of the 
> ratio, and it makes a huge difference.  (There are also formulae for derating 
> brightness, etc.)


Not to mention that the extra heat from a bulb run over-voltage can damage 
plastic front panels and light shrouds.

Even at the rated voltage, different bulb models can have a wide range of 
specified lifetimes,
from a few thousand hours to 25,000 or 40,000 or more hours.

Although the common trick with computer front panels seems to have been to just 
run bulbs under-rated,
e.g. a 6V bulb in a circuit with Vcc=5V, with some further voltage drop in the 
drive circuit the bulb sees well under 5V.

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Vincent Slyngstad: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:39 AM
Somewhere, I have Oshino's write-up about bulb rated voltage and 
bulb operating voltage, but I do remember the lifespan varies as 
some power of the ratio, and it makes a huge difference.  (There 
are also formulae for derating brightness, etc.)


I found it -- the lifespan varies as the 12th power of the ratio.
The current varies as the 0.55 power, and the brightness as the 
3.5th power (of the reciprocal).


So, a 12V bulb in a 28V circuit can expect 1/26000 the lifetime, 
and will take about 1.6X the current to burn about 20X brighter 
than normal.


A 28V bulb in a 24V circuit would last about 6.3X it's rated lifetime, 
take 92% of the rated current, and about 58% as bright.


   Vince 

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: jim stephens: Friday, July 22, 2016 12:46 AM

On 7/22/2016 12:25 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
I mentioned http://www.foxdata.com/blog/tag/nova-312/ to you earlier, 
which suggested the 28V bulbs.  I also found

http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/ledmod.html
which makes it clear that the voltage is likely a fair bit over 12V.


Thanks for the tips.  I see that the foxdata site lamps don't appear 
quite as bright as the chookfest ones, which is interesting.  I'm 
thinking now if I do anything it will be the LED route, so will evaluate 
that, as I agree opening the thing back up will suck.


Those chookfest bulbs are doing just what I'd expect from 12V bulbs 
in a 28V circuit -- way too bright, and then a drastically shortened 
lifespan.  (The right bulb can last for years; the wrong one for 
minutes.)


I'm not a big fan of the surgery involved in LED conversion, though 
I understand why folks do it.  Particularly if they, like Emil, have used 
the wrong bulbs and found themselves replacing them all the time.


Somewhere, I have Oshino's write-up about bulb rated voltage and 
bulb operating voltage, but I do remember the lifespan varies as 
some power of the ratio, and it makes a huge difference.  (There 
are also formulae for derating brightness, etc.)


   Vince 

RE: Nova 3 front panel

[Jay West]

Jim wrote...
---
Jay did your DG stuff on the back dock move?  just curious
---

Not yet. One listmember expressed interest but nothing firm. Two racks of 
DGblue just waiting for someone to cart them off ;) One is an S/200 and it uses 
bulbs. My S/130 uses LEDS I seem to recall, but haven't had the panel open in a 
good while.

My DG Eclipse S/130 project is at a long  impasse for now.

But once the S/130 project is done I'll be diving into a sizeable pile of nova 
800/1200 stuff and I'll have DGtonnage to make go away then

I do not have a Nova3, but I will see if I have any docs that speak to the 
bulbs used there.

J

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[jim stephens]

On 7/22/2016 12:25 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

From: jim stephens: Thursday, July 21, 2016 9:53 PM
I have not had time to figure out the driver circuit for any of the 
lamps to see what that may turn up, and wanted to know whether it was 
28v lamps before I buy 40 of them.  (the thing has only 2 out of a 
lot of lamps).


I mentioned http://www.foxdata.com/blog/tag/nova-312/ to you earlier, 
which suggested the 28V bulbs.  I also found

http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/ledmod.html
which makes it clear that the voltage is likely a fair bit over 12V.

The DG Components guide only lists part numbers for the 28V bulbs, 24V 
bulbs, 5V, and 6V bulbs (at least that I found that fit with the wire 
base and the form factor).  I think installing 28V bulbs in 24V 
circuits would be fine (they'd last longer).


Alas, I have no authoritative information on the exact correct bulb.

That's not a problem.  I was also interested in the info if I ever get 
around to using it for a simh front panel blink'n version. Unless a Nova 
3 drops in my lap.  (and still would want info).


Thanks for the tips.  I see that the foxdata site lamps don't appear 
quite as bright as the chookfest ones, which is interesting.  I'm 
thinking now if I do anything it will be the LED route, so will evaluate 
that, as I agree opening the thing back up will suck.


Jay did your DG stuff on the back dock move?  just curious.  PM if you like.
thanks
Jim

   Vince

Re: Nova 3 front panel

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: jim stephens: Thursday, July 21, 2016 9:53 PM
I have not had time to figure out the driver circuit for any of the 
lamps to see what that may turn up, and wanted to know whether it was 
28v lamps before I buy 40 of them.  (the thing has only 2 out of a lot 
of lamps).


I mentioned http://www.foxdata.com/blog/tag/nova-312/ to you 
earlier, which suggested the 28V bulbs.  I also found

http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/ledmod.html
which makes it clear that the voltage is likely a fair bit over 12V.

The DG Components guide only lists part numbers for the 
28V bulbs, 24V bulbs, 5V, and 6V bulbs (at least that I found 
that fit with the wire base and the form factor).  I think installing 
28V bulbs in 24V circuits would be fine (they'd last longer).


Alas, I have no authoritative information on the exact correct 
bulb.


   Vince