Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Richard Sheppard via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk>> wrote:

> SN-921

>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg

>

> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022

>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg



 https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py

>

> I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand.

The Solaris CDs used to have /usr/demo/DIALBOX (and BUTTONBOX) with source 
code. I think it was meant for xview though so you'd need to pick out the 
useful bits (if any).

Richard Sheppard

Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 8:13 PM, Glen Slick  wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>>
>> What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch
>> command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if
>> there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and
>> units destined for SGI
>
> FWIW, the microcontroller inside my HP A4362A dial box is a Motorola
> MC68HC705C4A with a stick on paper label with the number 109315-0001.

Ah ah!  Mine is marked 109457-0001.

Additionally, in case there's a difference here, my PCB has 3 jumpers,
JP-1, JP-2, and JP-3.  On mine, JP-1 is closed with a solder blob, the
other two are open.

> The number etched on the component side of the PCB is 109202-0001 REV A.

Same.

Thanks for the sticker number.  It's possible they are different
internally, and from the comment in one of the mailing list threads
about having to mod one of the programs for a specific model (absolute
mode vs relative mode) it does seem likely that different units come
up in different default modes.

-ethan

Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>
> What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch
> command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if
> there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and
> units destined for SGI.  They could behave the same way when in the
> same mode, but perhaps they are coming up in different modes.  It's of
> course quite likely that I have a broken unit and there are no
> internal differences.
>

FWIW, the microcontroller inside my HP A4362A dial box is a Motorola
MC68HC705C4A with a stick on paper label with the number 109315-0001.
It's a soldered down PLCC-44 package. If it was in a socket I'd remove
it and try to dump the firmware if it's not read protected. If your
dial box happens to have the same 109315-0001 number on the
microcontroller then my assumption would be that the firmware is
likely the same. If the number is different, no telling how different
the firmware might be.

The number etched on the component side of the PCB is 109202-0001 REV A.

Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Glen Slick  wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>>> SN-921
>>>   
>>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg
>>>
>>> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022
>>>   
>>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg
>>

> What version of the dial box do you have? I have an HP A4362A dial box
> which looks identical to the pictures of the DLS80-1022 dial box.

I have one DLS80-1022 and one SN-921, both badged for SGI.  Because I
did not get the serial/power Y-cable with the DLS80-1022, I started
working on the SN-921 because it just takes +5V on either the serial
cable or a 2.1mm jack and was shipped with a +5V PSU for it and I just
had to pass RxD, TxD and GND back from it.

I have not put together a triple-voltage supply and custom cable for
the DLS80-1022 yet, but that may be in my near future.

I do have the necessary tools to trace out and monitor the comm
circuit on each dial box.

> I just hooked up the HP A4362A dial box to a PC serial port with the
> Y-cable and the +5,+12,-12 AC adapter and I get 9600,N,8,1 dial
> rotation data from the dial box as soon as it is powered on without
> needing to send any commands to the dial box first.

OK then!  My SN-921 is definitely *not* talking.  I will crack it open
and check the upstream of the RS-232 chip and see if the MCU is
generating traffic.  I'm entirely willing to believe the weak link is
either the onboard boost converter for +/-9VDC for comms or the
converter chip itself (not a 1488/1489 pair).  It's also possible I
have a dead unit, but there's more investigation to do.

> It appears that the data format is three bytes per dial rotation
> report. The first byte is the dial number, 0x80 through 0x87. The next
> two bytes are the twos-complement rotation count, MSB first,
> counter-clockwise negative, clockwise positive.

Very handy to know.  I was looking over the Python code and it seems
that there are a number of modes where the host sends some bytes to
modify the behavior of the dialbox before setting up an event handler
to catch bytes sent from the dialbox but I hadn't figured out exactly
what was happening at a bytes-exchanged level.  Your explanation is
entirely clear.

What I _think_ I'm seeing is the Python code sends a mode switch
command to get the dial box to auto-send dial events, so I wonder if
there are any firmware differences with units destined for HP and
units destined for SGI.  They could behave the same way when in the
same mode, but perhaps they are coming up in different modes.  It's of
course quite likely that I have a broken unit and there are no
internal differences.

Thanks for the helpful response!

-ethan

Re: Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>> SN-921
>>   
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg
>>
>> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022
>>   
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg
>
> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py
>>
>> I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand.
>
> I have now tried this and am not having success.  I have a traffic
> light on the serial cable and I know I'm getting chars out of the host
> and that I don't have TxD and RxD swapped.  I'm not seeing any
> responses from the dial box and the python script does all the
> initialization and just sits there.  Frobbing the knobs produces no
> blinks on the traffic light and no text from the script.

What version of the dial box do you have? I have an HP A4362A dial box
which looks identical to the pictures of the DLS80-1022 dial box.

I just hooked up the HP A4362A dial box to a PC serial port with the
Y-cable and the +5,+12,-12 AC adapter and I get 9600,N,8,1 dial
rotation data from the dial box as soon as it is powered on without
needing to send any commands to the dial box first.

It appears that the data format is three bytes per dial rotation
report. The first byte is the dial number, 0x80 through 0x87. The next
two bytes are the twos-complement rotation count, MSB first,
counter-clockwise negative, clockwise positive.

Seeking software for SGI/Sun dial box (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> SN-921
>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg
>
> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022
>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg

 https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py
>
> I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand.

I have now tried this and am not having success.  I have a traffic
light on the serial cable and I know I'm getting chars out of the host
and that I don't have TxD and RxD swapped.  I'm not seeing any
responses from the dial box and the python script does all the
initialization and just sits there.  Frobbing the knobs produces no
blinks on the traffic light and no text from the script.

So... I'm digging deeper and I've found two references to some code
from around 2002 that can interact with dialboxes, but the sites are
no longer up and the internet archive did not save the binary archive
files.  I'm asking here in the hope that someone saved copies 10+
years ago when these files were still being served...

In the following thread on the ccp4bb list, there is a mention of
these archives...

[ in http://www.ysbl.york.ac.uk/ccp4bb/2003/msg00204.html ]

"I'm using SGI dialbox (Part# DLS80-1022) with XFree86 4.0.x under linux,
with modified version of the Joe Krahn's dialbox driver.
You can get the modified version from
  http://www.biochem.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~ishitani/dialbox/dialbox-new.tar.gz
and the original version from
  http://www.geocities.com/joekrahn/ "


So I'm looking for:

  dialbox-new.tar.gz
  dialbox.tgz
  dials.c

Apparently Joe Krahn hasn't done much with Open Source in 15 years
because looking for him has not been fruitful.

Thanks for any bits!

-ethan

SGI SN-921 dial box (978-0804) (was Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>> SN-921 (2.1mm barrel jack for +5V)
>>   
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg
>
> http://yehar.com/blog/?p=3471
>
> The (Seiko?) SN-921 can apparently be powered via DE9 or the 2.1mm
> jack next to it...
>
> 1. GND
> 2. SERIAL OUTPUT (±9 V)
> 3. SERIAL INPUT
> 4. POWER IN +5 V
> 5. POWER IN +5 V
> 6. NC
> 7. NC
> 8. GND
> 9. NC

Now that I've poked around in the innards, I can say that this pinout
has a slight mistake in it.  It should be:

1. GND
2. SERIAL OUTPUT (±9 V)
3. SERIAL INPUT
4. POWER IN +5 V
5. POWER IN +5 V
6. NC
7. GND
8. NC
9. NC

There are mentions here and there about how to hook up this dial box
using the +5V power jack and DE9 pins 2, 3, and 7.  I can confirm from
direct examination that pin 7 is a ground and 8 is NC on the PCB (and
that 4 and 5 are connected directly to the center pin of the 2.1mm
power jack).

-ethan

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2018-03-28 11:23 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:

Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing these next month!

My dialboxes showed up today.  The Seiko unit was advertised as having
a PS/2 adapter.  They were mistaken.  It's a DE9-MiniDIN8 adapter,
presumably for newer SGI or Sun machines.  I'll have to check the
pinout.  It also came with an external PSU so I don't need to make a
power-and-serial cable.  The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 did not come
with the DE9-DIN5 power-and-serial cable so I'll have to make one of
those.

-ethan
IBM Dials used a connector like that it has the serial in and out and 
+5V power on the connector.  You can find the pinout in the old 
"Adapters Devices and Cabling Information for Microchannel Systems"   I 
have seen this manual on the web, back in the microchannel days there 
was an adapter with 2 mini-din connectors on it for devices like this 
the adapter had 2 async adapter chips and fuses for the +5V power.  I 
seem to remember that the adapter was called "Graphics Device Adapter"   
Most of these IBM devices like dials, LPHK (Lighted PF Keys) and tablet 
date back to the IBM 5080 graphics workstations that where initially 
driven by mainframes but where later adapted to run off first RT system 
and then later RS/6000, but where also used on RS/6000 with with 
internal graphics adapters to support CAD programs like Catia.


Paul.

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing these next month!

My dialboxes showed up today.  The Seiko unit was advertised as having
a PS/2 adapter.  They were mistaken.  It's a DE9-MiniDIN8 adapter,
presumably for newer SGI or Sun machines.  I'll have to check the
pinout.  It also came with an external PSU so I don't need to make a
power-and-serial cable.  The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 did not come
with the DE9-DIN5 power-and-serial cable so I'll have to make one of
those.

-ethan

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> I went noodling around eBay and found a couple of types
>
> SN-921 (2.1mm barrel jack for +5V)
>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg
>
> DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 (+5V over DE9 serial cable - has
> special Y-cable for power injection)
>   
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg
>
> I have worked with a number of devices that are powered by +5V via
> their DE9.  Routinely, that's done by not connecting Pin 9 (RI) from
> the host and injecting +5V into the device on its Pin 9...

Not even close...

http://yehar.com/blog/?p=3471

The (Seiko?) SN-921 can apparently be powered via DE9 or the 2.1mm
jack next to it...

1. GND
2. SERIAL OUTPUT (±9 V)
3. SERIAL INPUT
4. POWER IN +5 V
5. POWER IN +5 V
6. NC
7. NC
8. GND
9. NC

The Danaher Controls DLS80-1022 has a DIN-5 at the end of its Y-cable
for input power.  It's +5V and +/-12V (because it does not generate
serial voltages internally), I now gather...

1. POWER IN +12 V
2. NC
3. POWER IN +5 V
4. GND
5. SERIAL OUTPUT (±12 V)
6. NC
7. SERIAL INPUT
8. NC
9. POWER IN -12 V

Easy enough to feed, but good to know it's got an odd pin/power arrangement.

Now I'm really looking forward to unboxing these next month!

-ethan

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
> and if anyone cares, I just listed three SGI IRIS dial boxes on ebay.
> they are just rotary encoders, the smarts were in the button box, which had a 
> 68008 in it.

I went noodling around eBay and found a couple of types - one looked
like your auction with what you describe - 8 rotary encoders just
piped directly out to what appears to be a DB25 on the back that
clearly need an external box with smarts.  There's also another
variety with two vendors/case styles that appear to take serial and
+5V.

SN-921 (2.1mm barrel jack for +5V)
  
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Sgi_dialbox_sn-921_front.jpg

DANAHER CONTROLS Dials DLS80-1022 (+5V over DE9 serial cable - has
special Y-cable for power injection)
  
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg

I've been playing with the LPFK for years and I've been interested in
the dialboxes ever since I saw an early one on a VAXstation 8000 on
the show floor at DECUS.  I decided to pick up one each of the DLS80
and SN-921.  Should get to me in a week or so.

>>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py

I'm going to test this code out when I have a dialbox in hand.  In the
meantime, I'm finding some of the common links to resources are now
dead.  I did find these on the Internet Archive:

eventio.py (quite similar to dialbox.py)
  
https://web.archive.org/web/20070526101234/http://www.ysbl.york.ac.uk/~emsley/coot/mbox-2004-2005/att-0547/eventio.py

Configure_Dials_for_OS_X.pdf (from May 2005, mentions OS X 10.3.  Has
nice pics of the cables)
  
https://web.archive.org/web/20060518153503/http://sbgrid.org/downloads/Configure_Dials_for_OS_X.pdf

SGI Dialbox to O2/Octane/etc
  
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011031646/http://www.meadow.net/pinouts.html#sgidbox


I have worked with a number of devices that are powered by +5V via
their DE9.  Routinely, that's done by not connecting Pin 9 (RI) from
the host and injecting +5V into the device on its Pin 9.  I will be
checking my DLS80 for that once it arrives.  I've made my own Y-cables
from scratch, and I found a brand of USB Serial adapter in a large
2-piece plastic shell and modded those to inject USB +5V over DE9 Pin
9 to keep the cabling simpler.  Both methods work.

-ethan

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

and if anyone cares, I just listed three SGI IRIS dial boxes on ebay.
they are just rotary encoders, the smarts were in the button box, which had a 
68008 in it.


On 3/25/18 10:28 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 3/25/18 8:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py
> 
> a friend of mine made a MIDI controller out of a E dial box, which also has 
> alphanumeric LEDs over each dial.
> 
> the box looks like the one on the right here:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/E%26S_Digistar%27s_parts.jpg
> 
> 
> 

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/25/18 8:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

> https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py

a friend of mine made a MIDI controller out of a E dial box, which also has 
alphanumeric LEDs over each dial.

the box looks like the one on the right here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/E%26S_Digistar%27s_parts.jpg

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Jason T via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial boxes??  I have an SGI
>> one but don't know anything about the IBM ones.  They were built by
>> Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...
>
> I have seen the same dial box, as well as the "Button Box" and
> possibly the CAD puck with the crosshairs, for HP and, IIRC, Sun
> systems.  It's a fair bet they're all based on the same models.
>

I have an HP branded dial box, an A4362A. It looks identical front and
back to the photos of the SGI DLS80-1022 on Wikipedia. I have the
stand for it, but seem to be missing the two brackets that screw on to
the back of the case to hold the stand in place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box#/media/File:SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_front.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box#/media/File:SGI_dialbox_DLS80-1022_back.jpg

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Jason T via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk
 wrote:
> Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial boxes??  I have an SGI
> one but don't know anything about the IBM ones.  They were built by
> Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...

I have seen the same dial box, as well as the "Button Box" and
possibly the CAD puck with the crosshairs, for HP and, IIRC, Sun
systems.  It's a fair bet they're all based on the same models.

"Somewhere" in my overwhelming stacks of IBM docs, I have some sort of
guide to I/O devices with pics of each.  I don't believe I've ever
seen a protocol description in them, unfortunately.

j

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 03/25/2018 09:49 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial boxes??  I have an SGI 
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones.  They were built by 
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box


It might be worth updating the Wikipedia article to reflect IBM's dial 
box, including a picture.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

On Sunday (03/25/2018 at 07:11AM -0700), Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Mar 24, 2018, at 22:29, Michael Brutman via cctalk 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Picture here: https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg 
> > 
> 
> Neat! I haven't seen one of those since 1987, when I briefly played with a 
> workstation that had one of those in an unguarded computer room in college. 
> It was running some sort of CAD demo in which you could rotate, translate, 
> and scale a wireframe model with the dials. I seem to recall that it was 
> propped up diagonally on some sort of stand, but I don't remember if that was 
> a standard feature vs. something cobbled together locally.
> 
> Good luck learning how to talk to it. I can think of a number of different 
> applications in which a physical interface like that might be nice.

Maybe there's some relationship to the SGI dial boxes??  I have an SGI
one but don't know anything about the IBM ones.  They were built by
Danaher and Seiko and both SGI and Sun offered those models...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_box

http://yehar.com/blog/?p=3471

https://github.com/hanshuebner/sgi-dialbox-usb/blob/master/dialbox.py

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: IBM 6094-010 "Dials" protocol?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Mar 24, 2018, at 22:29, Michael Brutman via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Picture here: https://i.imgur.com/ClCw070.jpg 
> 

Neat! I haven't seen one of those since 1987, when I briefly played with a 
workstation that had one of those in an unguarded computer room in college. It 
was running some sort of CAD demo in which you could rotate, translate, and 
scale a wireframe model with the dials. I seem to recall that it was propped up 
diagonally on some sort of stand, but I don't remember if that was a standard 
feature vs. something cobbled together locally.

Good luck learning how to talk to it. I can think of a number of different 
applications in which a physical interface like that might be nice.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/