Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-29 Thread Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:36 PM Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
> > Err, I expect that that was RSTS-11 in June, 1970, not RSTS-E. Since RSTS-11
> > (which I learned to program on; happy memories :-) was a BASIC-PLUS only
> > system, and ran on a PDP-11/20, I suspect it was a fairly different 
> > operating
> > system (although no doubt it's BASIC-PLUS interpreter was ported to RSTS-E).
> >
> > I think RSTS/E needed the -11/45, introduced around June 1972; sources
> > give 1973 for RSTS/E.

I came to RSTS some time later (not counting dialling from a
DECwriter, I first really used RSTS/E in 1984) but with the difference
between RSTS-11 and RSTS/E, I went over David Ahl's "101 BASIC
Computing Games" to figure out from the code, from the run listings,
and from the descriptions, which of the many systems were used.  I
found references identifying about 40% of the games, and relevant to
this thread, ANIMAL and BLKJAC mention RSTS-11, several mention RSTS/E
(ACEYDU, FIPFOP, HOCKEY, HURKLE, MUGWMP, SALVO, and SYNONM), and one
mentions the EduSystem 70 (HRMABI).  In various places I've found
mention of the EduSystem 60 (single-user on a 4K PDP-11/20), the
EduSystem 70 (up to 8 users on a 16K PDP-11/20), and the EduSystem 80
(up to 16 users on a 24K PDP-11/20 and a specific mention or RSTS-11).
The EduSystem handbook (1973 publication date) only covers up to the
EduSystem 50 so I don't have configuration details of any of the
systems.

As I mention from time to time, I have an 11/20 that needs extensive
restoration work (it was rescued from the dumpster at work after my
supervisor stripped out fans and PSUs) and I'd love to find things to
run on it other than paper tape and toggle-in programs.  Finding a
copy of an EduSystem distro would be fantastic for demos.

Cheers,

-ethan

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-29 Thread Peter Dick via cctalk 

Good morning Noel

Thanks for the link  While I appreciate "retired" might describe your 
current status, I was looking for a better description of how you 
were/are involved with RSTS.


And...

You might be amused to learn I was the author of the RSTS 80th Birthday 
document.  It was "frozen" in late April 1990...


Bye/P




On 29/06/2020 01:05, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Peter Dick  
 
 > Question: how do the three of you (Noel) cctalk@classiccmp.org and Paul

 > Koning fit together?

CCTalk is a mailing list for people who collect antique ('classic') computers;
Paul and I are both members.  I collect PDP-11's (I used them in school from
'72 to '76, and worked with them from '77 to the mid-80's). Jay West, who
maintains the list, forwarded your email query about RSTS/E to the list.
(Paul you can find in the RSTS 80th birthday spoof, BTW.)

  Noel

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 

On 6/28/2020 6:16 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

I don't remember if any of the material in bits/pdp11/rsts on Bitsavers is 
RSTS-11. There is the material from PDP-10 tapes that was discussed here in the 
past year, which I identified as very early RSTS sources. I don't know yet if 
they are complete enough to run, that would be an interesting experiment.
FWIW, there's a RSTS/E V10.1 source master copy (including DECnet/E and build 
control files) among the Bitsavers materials.

Has anyone ever posted any of the V6 or V7 sources?  I see the V8 and V10.1 
sources on Bitsavers.

paul



--
John H. Reinhardt
  PRRT  #8909
  C HS  #11530
  N-Trak   #7566

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk 
> From: Peter Dick  

> Question: how do the three of you (Noel) cctalk@classiccmp.org and Paul
> Koning fit together?

CCTalk is a mailing list for people who collect antique ('classic') computers;
Paul and I are both members.  I collect PDP-11's (I used them in school from
'72 to '76, and worked with them from '77 to the mid-80's). Jay West, who
maintains the list, forwarded your email query about RSTS/E to the list.
(Paul you can find in the RSTS 80th birthday spoof, BTW.)

  Noel

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk 



> On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Paul Koning
> 
>> RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping,
>> but the bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11.
> 
> I was assuming that the basic intermal environment was sufficiently different
> that not a lot of the OS-level code could carry over, but I guess not.
> 
> DId you actually work on RSTS-11 internals (I don't know your exact dates at
> DEC), or did you just read the source?

Mostly I read the source, starting in university where we were running RSTS-11. 
 I started working on it at DEC in the V7.0 era, for DECnet V2.0.

> And speaking of which, are any RSTS-11 sources still extant? I found the RSTS
> directory on BitSavers, but it seems to have only manuals.

I don't remember if any of the material in bits/pdp11/rsts on Bitsavers is 
RSTS-11.  There is the material from PDP-10 tapes that was discussed here in 
the past year, which I identified as very early RSTS sources.  I don't know yet 
if they are complete enough to run, that would be an interesting experiment.

FWIW, there's a RSTS/E V10.1 source master copy (including DECnet/E and build 
control files) among the Bitsavers materials.

paul

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk 
> From: Paul Koning

> RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping,
> but the bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11.

I was assuming that the basic intermal environment was sufficiently different
that not a lot of the OS-level code could carry over, but I guess not.

DId you actually work on RSTS-11 internals (I don't know your exact dates at
DEC), or did you just read the source?

And speaking of which, are any RSTS-11 sources still extant? I found the RSTS
directory on BitSavers, but it seems to have only manuals.

  Noel

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk 



> On Jun 28, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned 50 
>> years old.
> 
> Now, we all need to dig out the "RSTS 50th birthday" paper from eons ago..

You mean the 80th birthday spoof?  It's on line.  Probably several places; here 
is one: http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rsts/rsts_80th_birthday.html 


paul

Re: RSTS/E has just had its 50th Birthday...

2020-06-28 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk 


> On Jun 28, 2020, at 2:24 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Peter Dick
> 
>> As I expect you know, RSTS was 'born' on 11th June 1970 as shown when
>> you print DATE$(1%) ...
>> This means RSTS/E, the Greatest Operating System ever, has just turned
>> 50 years old.
> 
> Err, I expect that that was RSTS-11 in June, 1970, not RSTS-E. Since RSTS-11
> (which I learned to program on; happy memories :-) was a BASIC-PLUS only
> system, and ran on a PDP-11/20, I suspect it was a fairly different operating
> system (although no doubt it's BASIC-PLUS interpreter was ported to RSTS-E).
> 
> I think RSTS/E needed the -11/45, introduced around June 1972; sources
> give 1973 for RSTS/E.
> 
>   Noel

RSTS/E of course has a bunch of new stuff in it to deal with mapping, but the 
bulk of the code carries over from RSTS-11.  For example, the file system code 
is basically the same, as is a large fraction of driver code as well as core 
kernel services.

RSTS/E did lose some oddball things, such as the fact that RSTS-11 did 
BASIC-PLUS string garbage collection through a file processor overlay.  

paul