Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 9/19/19 6:37 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:23:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>  
>> What's in a name?  
> 
> Accuracy.
> 
>> It looked gray to me.
> 
> Me too.  But enough videos that I watched featured individuals who felt
> compelled to emphasize that were telco cables are concerned, the colors are
> violet and slate, not purple and gray, that I'm willing to take their word
> for it.

The problem is that "what's the color slate look like?"  Well, WikiP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_gray

More than a bit of amiguity, so I'm going to go with "light slate gray":
CMYK: (60, 43, 34, 4) or HTML   #778899.  WkiP also notes that there are
many variations of Slate Gray in use; some are a bit more green or blue
than others.

But note that the color name is "Slate GRAY", so calling Ma Bell's color
"gray" isn't an error.  I'll bet peanuts to doughnuts that Ma Bell's
official color isn't exactly any of the cited examples, either.

Same for EIA 598A fiber colors.  You call it "rose".  I call it "pink".

Now, that that's solved, we can move on to "what is the color indigo?"

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:23:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
 
> What's in a name?  

Accuracy.

> It looked gray to me.

Me too.  But enough videos that I watched featured individuals who felt
compelled to emphasize that were telco cables are concerned, the colors are
violet and slate, not purple and gray, that I'm willing to take their word
for it.

It kind of reminds me of when Dr. Pulaski met commander Data, and
mispronounced his name as Dat-ah, instead of Day-tah.  He told her how it
was pronounced.  She asked, "What's the difference?"  He replied, "One is my
name, the other is not."  Where the 25 pair telco color code is concerned,
violet and slate are in the color code, purple and gray are not.




-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 9/19/19 9:56 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 09:05:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>  
>> 25 pairs, where
>>
>> White Red Black Yellow Violet for each "bank" and within each bank
>> Blue Orange Green Brown Gray
> 
>>From what I've heard and read, where a 25 pair cable is concerned, it's
> slate, not gray.

Yes, and Ma Bell had optional colors with names like "rose".

Regardless, what's the origin of the color scheme?  In other words, what
is the basis of the ordering?

Resistor color code follows (pretty much) colors as they occur in a
rainbow.  Evidently, Ma Bell doesn't believe in rainbows.

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature ribbon
connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!

We used to call them "blue ribbon" connectors.  I'm sure that that's
also a misnomer.

I still believe that that is the correct name.
I've always assumed that that was Amphenol's name for that line of 
connector when they invented it.  I also assumed that "blue ribbon" was a 
reference to the blue first-prize ribbons at county fair type contests.
Although a friend claimed that that name was unintentional, since instead 
of pins, it uses "ribbon contacts", hence also "micro ribbon connector". 
and many of them had a BLUE plastic center section.


On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jon Elson wrote:
The original Amphenol connector was about 3 X the contact spacing of the 
micro-blue ribbon
connector, but basically the same design.  They used Diallyl pthalate 
insulators.  I don't know if these are just always dyed blue, or the chemical 
makeup makes them blue, but it is a deep blue color.  So, that's where the 
blue in the name comes from.  The contacts are punched out of a ribbon of 
gold-plated beryllium copper, so that's where the ribbon in the name comes 
from.


Thank you.

I appreciate the detailed explanation.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 9/19/19 9:56 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 09:05:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>  
>> 25 pairs, where
>>
>> White Red Black Yellow Violet for each "bank" and within each bank
>> Blue Orange Green Brown Gray
> 
>>From what I've heard and read, where a 25 pair cable is concerned, it's
> slate, not gray.

What's in a name?  It looked gray to me.

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[allison via cctalk]

On 9/19/19 12:56 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 09:05:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>  
>> 25 pairs, where
>>
>> White Red Black Yellow Violet for each "bank" and within each bank
>> Blue Orange Green Brown Gray
> 
> From what I've heard and read, where a 25 pair cable is concerned, it's
> slate, not gray.
> 
> 
> 
Grey or slate for outer jacket and the listed colors for wire pairs
or groups of pairs in the cable.

Allison

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 09:05:07PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
 
> 25 pairs, where
> 
> White Red Black Yellow Violet for each "bank" and within each bank
> Blue Orange Green Brown Gray

>From what I've heard and read, where a 25 pair cable is concerned, it's
slate, not gray.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 06:34:55PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
 
> You have to be OLD to have used these?  Golly, maybe I really am OLD.

No.  I encountered similar phones at a Service Merchandise I worked at in
the early '90s.  They were connected to some type of early PBX system.  I
wish I knew more about it.

> My grandmother's was 46 (no exchange or dial; rural phone company).

That reminds me of an early Lassie episode.  Lassie was going blind, and
Jeff took her into the city to a human eye doctor.  The doctor asked Jeff
for his phone number.  Jeff replied, "There's no number.  Just one long
ring, two short ... Jenny knows."  Jenny was the Calverton switchboard
operator.

> Anyone collect the old Rolm (IBM) PBX stuff?

No, but if I ever come across any I might.  Having worked in z/OS and AS/400
operations for a couple of decades I've developed a fondness for IBM gear.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

One aspect of the RJ21 coding that's always puzzled me was the ordering
of the colors.

25 pairs, where

White Red Black Yellow Violet for each "bank" and within each bank
Blue Orange Green Brown Gray

So the first pair would be White-Blue
and the last (25th) would be Violet-Gray

Does anyone know where the odd ordering (contrary to electronics color
code) originated?

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 09/18/2019 09:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin 
miniature ribbon

connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!


On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
We used to call them "blue ribbon" connectors.  I'm sure 
that that's

also a misnomer.


I still believe that that is the correct name.
I've always assumed that that was Amphenol's name for that 
line of connector when they invented it.  I also assumed 
that "blue ribbon" was a reference to the blue first-prize 
ribbons at county fair type contests.


Although a friend claimed that that name was 
unintentional, since instead of pins, it uses "ribbon 
contacts", hence also "micro ribbon connector". and many 
of them had a BLUE plastic center section.


The original Amphenol connector was about 3 X the contact 
spacing of the micro-blue ribbon
connector, but basically the same design.  They used Diallyl 
pthalate insulators.  I don't know if these are just always 
dyed blue, or the chemical makeup makes them blue, but it is 
a deep blue color.  So, that's where the blue in the name 
comes from.  The contacts are punched out of a ribbon of 
gold-plated beryllium copper, so that's where the ribbon in 
the name comes from.


Jon

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 09/18/2019 08:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Oh, my Gosh!  the first 3 pics are of a KTU phone 
system.  If you are OLD enough, remember the phones with 
5 line select buttons and a red hold button below the 
rotary dial?  That is what that unit supports, the 565 
phone.


Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature 
ribbon connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!



Nope, AMP mini-blue ribbon.

Jon

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature ribbon
connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!


On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

We used to call them "blue ribbon" connectors.  I'm sure that that's
also a misnomer.


I still believe that that is the correct name.
I've always assumed that that was Amphenol's name for that line of 
connector when they invented it.  I also assumed that "blue ribbon" was a 
reference to the blue first-prize ribbons at county fair type contests.


Although a friend claimed that that name was unintentional, since instead 
of pins, it uses "ribbon contacts", hence also "micro ribbon connector". 
and many of them had a BLUE plastic center section.

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 9/18/19 6:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature ribbon
> connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!

We used to call them "blue ribbon" connectors.  I'm sure that that's
also a misnomer.

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

Alleluia! A kindred soul!  I have spent the latter half of my life 
trying to tell people that the Centronics Data Computer Co of Hudson NJ 
NEVER used a 50-pin connector!  The Amp 57-10360 would have been a 
57-10500 if they had :-)


cheers,

Nigel


On 18/09/2019 21:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Oh, my Gosh!  the first 3 pics are of a KTU phone system.  If you are 
OLD enough, remember the phones with 5 line select buttons and a red 
hold button below the rotary dial?  That is what that unit supports, 
the 565 phone.


Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature ribbon 
connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!


 


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me 
to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number 
of system administrators along the way.
   Nigel Johnson 


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Frank McConnell via cctalk]

On Sep 18, 2019, at 11:32, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I know some peeps here are phone pholks…..See www.ezwind.net/phonestuff 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> One is an old “bell system western electric”. It seems to have a few 66 
> blocks just under the cover, a power supply, and some kind of modules that 
> plug in.

I think you might have a 1A2 key system there (this based on the 400Ds up top). 
 Kind of want but do not need.  I see other (and closer) interest has been 
expressed and that is good.

> The other is a Nortel Networks ICS. It feels way too light, not sure if 
> anything is in it. There is another piece of Nortel gear on the wall, seems 
> to be some kind of wireless? thingy called Nortel Networks Call Pilot 100.

That is why you want the 1A2.  It looks substantial hanging on the wall with 
those 25-pair cables to the key sets.  It feels substantial while you’re 
working to get it hung on the wall.  And it whirs and clicks in ways that the 
fully electronic key systems and PBXs don’t.  

-Frank McConnell

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 9/18/19 6:16 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
 
> Oh, my Gosh!  the first 3 pics are of a KTU phone system.  If you are
> OLD enough, remember the phones with 5 line select buttons and a red
> hold button below the rotary dial?  That is what that unit supports, the
> 565 phone.

You have to be OLD to have used these?  Golly, maybe I really am OLD.

There were touch-tone later versions also.  Hooked to a KSU with the
wonderful 50 wire cable.

I remember that our (no dial at all) phone number was Sheffield 2118-W.
(Party line, don'tcha know).

My grandmother's was 46 (no exchange or dial; rural phone company).

Anyone collect the old Rolm (IBM) PBX stuff?

--Chuck

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Oh, my Gosh!  the first 3 pics are of a KTU phone system.  If you are OLD 
enough, remember the phones with 5 line select buttons and a red hold button 
below the rotary dial?  That is what that unit supports, the 565 phone.


Please don't let anybody call the 25 pair 50-pin miniature ribbon 
connector (RJ21),  "Centronics"!

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 09/18/2019 01:32 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:

I know some peeps here are phone pholks…..See www.ezwind.net/phonestuff 


  



Oh, my Gosh!  the first 3 pics are of a KTU phone system.  
If you are OLD enough, remember the phones with 5 line 
select buttons and a red hold button below the rotary dial?  
That is what that unit supports, the 565 phone.


Jon

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Kevin Monceaux

> I'm not sure what it is about phone systems. ... I don't know why I'm
> doing this. 

Oh, and the rest of us have a real use/need for old, slow, small (by modern
standards) systems that use a ton of power? :-)

Noel

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 01:32:21PM -0500, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:
 
> I know zilch about phone systems, and don’t want to know anything about
> phone systems  They were on the wall of a warehouse telco closet that my
> client just rented and we need the space on the dmarc wall for a rack. If
> someone wants them, and is willing to pay ship/pack (ups) from 63146 let
> me know within 2 days or they go to the skip.

I sent a short replied off list to express interest.  I'm not sure what it
is about phone systems.

I've had a fascination with them for years, especially PBX type systems.
I've only recently started setting up a home PBX style phone system.  At the
moment I have a couple of Cisco IP phones and a few analog phones from the
1930's and 1940's working using Cisco CME on a 3845 router as a phone
controller.  I'm about to take a stab at punching down a 25 pair cable on a
66 block to connect to a Cisco VG224 voice gateway, which would enable me to
connect 24 analog extensions to my current system.  I don't know why I'm
doing this.  I live alone.  I don't need to be able to call from one room to
another in my house.

I've been eyeing 1A2 key systems and Nortel PBX systems for a while, not to
mention Mitel, Avaya Definity, and more.




-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: phone systems, old and less-old

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

The other is a Nortel Networks ICS. It feels way too light, not sure if 
anything is in it. There is another piece of Nortel gear on the wall, 
seems to be some kind of wireless? thingy called Nortel Networks Call 
Pilot 100.


Call Pilot is an automated call routing plus voicemail system (thanks 
google) that is likely tied to the ICS.


ICS should be the PBX.

- Ethan