Re: Consultant's Revenge
Here is the problem I face most of the clients I have had recently have not paid me as you may recall the nasty spat online for $150. Well the guy he says I billed 165 hours never paid me for ONE hour of work, the next client I get then promptly pays me for one week but take 20 hours off the next two checks, I quit that one and the last Client I had was the worst because his end client has 13 Billion dollars and wanted to pay him but he would not send in an Invoice. The end client liked my work so much that they kept the contract with him as long as he kept me. This guy who claims to have been in business for 13 years or more and has $70,000 in his company bank account(I know people who work at Wachovia)and he still refuses to pay me. So Jefferey you are right usually a letter from your attorney requesting payment or file Lawsuit in Federal DISTRICT Court (yes Federal Court is the way to go for anything over $500, because of a little thing called Diversity of Citizenship(you live in a different state than the weasel who does not pay) will get you money. The problem is to retain an attorney usually costs you $2000 or more so that is how the weasel's get you. So in order to beat that you make sure they have (weasel) has Liability Insurance for $1,000,000 so you sue their Insurance company who promptly pays and dumps his cheap skate client. At this moment I am owed over $10,000 and my children did not have as nice as Xmas as they should for exactly that reason. The ones that I hate are the Big Companies that require you to go with a IT Consulting firm(they have contract with) in order to work for them then the Firm makes all sort of demands on you so that you quit and they can find some CHEAP south east Asian to take your place if the estupido company lets them! VNC | aaron AT trajiklyhip DOT com | http://www.trajiklyhip.com/blog/ | Certified Advanced Adobe ColdFusion MX 7 Developer | Certified Macromedia Flash MX Developer | Adobe Community Expert ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3614 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
I'm running an offshore ColdFusion developer from Jakarta, that is south east Asia. My company's rate is US$40/man/hour, i think it's not that cheap :) Currently we have 0 customers that won't pay us. Infact, we never ask for down payment cause we're 100% sure that our client will benefit from our work, thus pay the bill. To prevent this situation, for new client we usually break down large project into smaller pieces. And do the small piece first, see whether they satisfy with our work - and pay before we continue with the rest. Regards, Rizal At 09:30 PM 2/2/2008, you wrote: Here is the problem I face most of the clients I have had recently have not paid me as you may recall the nasty spat online for $150. Well the guy he says I billed 165 hours never paid me for ONE hour of work, the next client I get then promptly pays me for one week but take 20 hours off the next two checks, I quit that one and the last Client I had was the worst because his end client has 13 Billion dollars and wanted to pay him but he would not send in an Invoice. The end client liked my work so much that they kept the contract with him as long as he kept me. This guy who claims to have been in business for 13 years or more and has $70,000 in his company bank account(I know people who work at Wachovia)and he still refuses to pay me. So Jefferey you are right usually a letter from your attorney requesting payment or file Lawsuit in Federal DISTRICT Court (yes Federal Court is the way to go for anything over $500, because of a little thing called Diversity of Citizenship(you live in a different state than the weasel who does not pay) will get you money. The problem is to retain an attorney usually costs you $2000 or more so that is how the weasel's get you. So in order to beat that you make sure they have (weasel) has Liability Insurance for $1,000,000 so you sue their Insurance company who promptly pays and dumps his cheap skate client. At this moment I am owed over $10,000 and my children did not have as nice as Xmas as they should for exactly that reason. The ones that I hate are the Big Companies that require you to go with a IT Consulting firm(they have contract with) in order to work for them then the Firm makes all sort of demands on you so that you quit and they can find some CHEAP south east Asian to take your place if the estupido company lets them! ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3616 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Interesting, $40/hr is really not a ton cheaper than what a lot of U.S. developers will work for. We have paid anywhere from $40-60/hr for CF developers. I personally have worked for anywhere from $30-80/hr, just depended on the job, my schedule, and many other factors. I have had trouble with big companies not paying on time and that can be a significant hit on the old wallet when waiting on a $10k or more check to come in and it is many months late coming. I am lucky that I stash a healthy chunk of change in the bank for such experiences although the last time it happened to be it pretty much depleted my stash and was not a fun experience thinking about the possible outcomes. I did wise up some last year and for some of my projects for the big companies instead of charging hourly I charged a flat rate which they had to pay upfront. Basically the invoice was put out at the beginning and they have NET 50 terms so in most cases the payment came in shortly after the project was done. On Feb 2, 2008 8:52 AM, Rizal Firmansyah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm running an offshore ColdFusion developer from Jakarta, that is south east Asia. My company's rate is US$40/man/hour, i think it's not that cheap :) Currently we have 0 customers that won't pay us. Infact, we never ask for down payment cause we're 100% sure that our client will benefit from our work, thus pay the bill. To prevent this situation, for new client we usually break down large project into smaller pieces. And do the small piece first, see whether they satisfy with our work - and pay before we continue with the rest. Regards, Rizal ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3617 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Sir, One of specialities is working with the SE Asia Firms and from my converstions with them your rate seems to be an anomally since I have had to put out subcontracting bids for other developers to help when I am swamped,most of my replies have been in the $20-30 range. Also Sir you do not have to deal with the IRS and Social Security Administration, State, and Local Taxes so yes normally $40 is a good rate. I recently posted for $25 per hour and was overwhelmed with potential clients asking for my services , I was also talked about as if I was a fool by some of my fellow programmers here in the US. Regardless I was not meaning anything about race more so to the fact that because you do not have to deal with US taxes and the company has no Tax ID to report to the US Government, then they of course are willing to pay you and are happy to do it. I have often thought of opening an offshore company in maybe Costa Rica or Barbados in order to get those same benefits as you are proud of receiving. But in effect you are cheap for US companies because of the Tax Liability and Government Pension payments. Even as an offshore company you do not have a US Tax ID, I am sure the IRS could not take you to jail or haul you off to court another advantage you have. Again no pun on SE Asian my Step Mother was from Canton China before she came here to the US, and I love Taiwan and Hong Kong but guess what her brother who I learned some of my programming skills from also runs an offshore programming shop charging 35 per hour, and he is rich; living in Hong Kong. No way a US programmer could be considered Rich here for charging that rate. I wonder do you live in a Villa, how much money do you make out of the 40 per hour or does the whole company get paid that and then it is divided , you see here if a developer shared 40 per hour with his partners he would need 15 clients ,working for all of them to survive! I'm running an offshore ColdFusion developer from Jakarta, that is south east Asia. My company's rate is US$40/man/hour, i think it's not that cheap :) Currently we have 0 customers that won't pay us. Infact, we never ask for down payment cause we're 100% sure that our client will benefit from our work, thus pay the bill. To prevent this situation, for new client we usually break down large project into smaller pieces. And do the small piece first, see whether they satisfy with our work - and pay before we continue with the rest. Regards, Rizal At 09:30 PM 2/2/2008, you wrote: ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3619 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
J W wrote: We can complain when we are burned, or have the attitude that you need to learn your lesson and move on. The 6 million dollar question is. How do we make it right? I would argue that the lessons to be learned have to do with: 1) How you make the decision to work with someone (or not) - make sure you are dealing with someone you trust. 2) What legal mechanisms are in place to help enforce any agreements you make - in case your trust was misplaced 3) How well (and when) you recognize and take action when something's going the wrong direction - to keep you from getting too deep before you cut the cord. Most bad situations are a result of not doing one of the three above correctly. -Cameron ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3602 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Consultant's Revenge
Because this thread pops up every time someone gets burned. It's usually just riddled with responses of let it go You will be liable, etc.. Apparently everyone is tired of saying it heh. I'm with them... by all means go ahead and put this idea into production so we all have an example of why it is such a horrible idea. We would just be able to say Don't you remember what happened to Joseph when he tried ConsultantsRevenge.com? ;-) Seriously... learn from the experience with whoever burned you today, maybe share your experience with some close friends and family in PRIVATE just to get it off your chest.. and move on. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: C. Hatton Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Consultant's Revenge After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. Why do I recall seeing this thread some time back? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3598 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Consultant's Revenge
Complacency? Not hardly, I'm just not willing to jump on one sided complaining and say Yeah... you go get em! I also don't care to hear the other side of the argument publicly because it just turns into back-and-forth bickering and makes both sides look stupid to people who weren't involved and don't care to be. I don't want your dirty laundry and I don't see any good coming from putting one's self in such a liable position by creating a forum to bash companies (or praise them really) in an attempt to persuade or dissuade others into doing or not doing business with the company/person. A) Disgruntled people would of course use such a system to bash the company/person even when they are at fault... B) the competition will of course like to see the company look bad and use such a system to do so... C) the company itself could use it to make themselves look better... [rest of the alphabet here] But again... go ahead and put it into production so we all have a good example as to why its such a horrible idea. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3605 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Don't get me mixed up with the original poster. I never said I wanted a website like that. What I did say is there has to be ACCOUNTABILITY for BOTH sides. We need to find a solution for THAT. Jeff On Feb 1, 2008 12:33 PM, Bobby Hartsfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Complacency? Not hardly, I'm just not willing to jump on one sided complaining and say Yeah... you go get em! I also don't care to hear the other side of the argument publicly because it just turns into back-and-forth bickering and makes both sides look stupid to people who weren't involved and don't care to be. I don't want your dirty laundry and I don't see any good coming from putting one's self in such a liable position by creating a forum to bash companies (or praise them really) in an attempt to persuade or dissuade others into doing or not doing business with the company/person. A) Disgruntled people would of course use such a system to bash the company/person even when they are at fault... B) the competition will of course like to see the company look bad and use such a system to do so... C) the company itself could use it to make themselves look better... [rest of the alphabet here] But again... go ahead and put it into production so we all have a good example as to why its such a horrible idea. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3607 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
J W wrote: Counterpoint #2: Unless you have money for a lawyer and run through small claims, your more than likely SOL. We need more protection that just trying to hire a lawyer. How much $$$ do you have to shell out for lawyers to MAKE a uplholdable contract/agreement. Remember its still you job to collect even if the judge awards you money. Good luck with that. How many consultants have the expendable income to collect like this. At DotComIt, we've never had a collection case go to court. Often a letter on the lawyer's letterhead is enough to get payment flowing. Of course the lawyer takes a cut of the collection (usually ~15%), but it's better than not getting paid at all. 4 weeks (160 hours) at $50 an hour = amount too large for small claims. I would hope that you're billing cycle is not longer than a month. As to how much DotComIt has spent creating legal contracts; quite a bit. In the beginning a lot of this was reactionary. okay, we had X problem with the client; how do I cover myself in that situation. These days we never work without being under contract, nor without an advance. And we have procedures in place to stop work if payment becomes late. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3609 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
On Feb 1, 2008 6:35 AM, Bobby Hartsfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously... learn from the experience with whoever burned you today, maybe share your experience with some close friends and family in PRIVATE just to get it off your chest.. and move on. That's easy to say. But I had a very nasty experience with a firm that frequently posts on the jobs list, and I have to sit on my hands each time they do to keep myself from posting a warning to any poor soul that might fall into their clutches. I feel like I have an ethical duty to my fellow consultants to at least post a sign that says here be monsters. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3610 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Create a filter to automatically delete posts from such a firm. At least then you won't have to deal with that stress. Maureen wrote: On Feb 1, 2008 6:35 AM, Bobby Hartsfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously... learn from the experience with whoever burned you today, maybe share your experience with some close friends and family in PRIVATE just to get it off your chest.. and move on. That's easy to say. But I had a very nasty experience with a firm that frequently posts on the jobs list, and I have to sit on my hands each time they do to keep myself from posting a warning to any poor soul that might fall into their clutches. I feel like I have an ethical duty to my fellow consultants to at least post a sign that says here be monsters. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3611 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
This site sounds like it will take all of your time doing moderation. One of my friends started a similar site but with mechanics. Also you might run into problems with profitableness, because the best advertising/sponsoring could come from someone who might have people on your site who hate them. On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Joseph Smuzynski wrote: After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. The idea is to have a site where consultants of all types can come and anonymously post their negative experiences with various companies, large or small. The hope is that with proper marketing, it will become the first place a consultant comes to check out a company before doing work for them. If a company ends up with a negative listing, the way they get the listing removed is to make good with the consultant, then the consultant can mark the case closed. Naturally, if they have multiple bad entries, they would have to make good with everybody. The site would not allow inflammatory types of comments about a company; only facts. Each entry would be reviewed and approved before being posted. There would have to be supporting data too... for example, let's say a company refused to pay your last invoice. You would need to provide a copy of your last invoice and a work log to document it. All listings would have to include proof that you actually worked for the company... e.g. copies of pay stubs, a copy of the contract, etc. Otherwise the site could be used for extortion and would lose it's advantage because it wouldn't be taken seriously. So, the point is to help show companies that they have to treat consultants well... pay their people what they're owed, treat them kindly, etc. Otherwise these companies may find themselves unable to get people to work for them anymore. I don't see this being a lawsuit magnet either. Each posting would have to be factual, not emotional. No slanderous or libelous remarks. Just facts. It would boil down to the consultant's word against the company. No names of people would be mentioned, so you couldn't call people out by name. You could go as far as to say your supervisor was a micro-manager but you couldn't say, my supervisor, Bill Smith, was a micro-manager and was always giving me a hard time. Sure, the easier way is to just post about 'em here on cf-jobs-talk, but then you're likely to end up with a bad rap since a lot of job posters read this list too, no doubt looking for anybody who might be willing to speak out. I haven't really decided what to call the site either. I'm not even sure yet if I'll do it; I'm curious to hear what others think of the idea. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3588 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
It sounds like a lawsuit trap to me. The only way to keep it factual is if you moderate posts and control what people say. Once you do that, then you are no longer protected under safe harbor provisions. All that said, even if you're in the right in terms of free speech, that won't protect you from getting sued. All that said, I'm surprised something like this doesn't already exist. Joseph Smuzynski wrote: After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. The idea is to have a site where consultants of all types can come and anonymously post their negative experiences with various companies, large or small. The hope is that with proper marketing, it will become the first place a consultant comes to check out a company before doing work for them. If a company ends up with a negative listing, the way they get the listing removed is to make good with the consultant, then the consultant can mark the case closed. Naturally, if they have multiple bad entries, they would have to make good with everybody. The site would not allow inflammatory types of comments about a company; only facts. Each entry would be reviewed and approved before being posted. There would have to be supporting data too... for example, let's say a company refused to pay your last invoice. You would need to provide a copy of your last invoice and a work log to document it. All listings would have to include proof that you actually worked for the company... e.g. copies of pay stubs, a copy of the contract, etc. Otherwise the site could be used for extortion and would lose it's advantage because it wouldn't be taken seriously. So, the point is to help show companies that they have to treat consultants well... pay their people what they're owed, treat them kindly, etc. Otherwise these companies may find themselves unable to get people to work for them anymore. I don't see this being a lawsuit magnet either. Each posting would have to be factual, not emotional. No slanderous or libelous remarks. Just facts. It would boil down to the consultant's word against the company. No names of people would be mentioned, so you couldn't call people out by name. You could go as far as to say your supervisor was a micro-manager but you couldn't say, my supervisor, Bill Smith, was a micro-manager and was always giving me a hard time. Sure, the easier way is to just post about 'em here on cf-jobs-talk, but then you're likely to end up with a bad rap since a lot of job posters read this list too, no doubt looking for anybody who might be willing to speak out. I haven't really decided what to call the site either. I'm not even sure yet if I'll do it; I'm curious to hear what others think of the idea. Joe -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3590 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
What about the flip-side of that coin ... A site for employers to review their contracted hire. Why not build both into the site with the ability to tag them together and to facilitate conflict resolution? This could be quite the lucritive venture if done properly. On 1/31/08, Joseph Smuzynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. The idea is to have a site where consultants of all types can come and anonymously post their negative experiences with various companies, large or small. The hope is that with proper marketing, it will become the first place a consultant comes to check out a company before doing work for them. If a company ends up with a negative listing, the way they get the listing removed is to make good with the consultant, then the consultant can mark the case closed. Naturally, if they have multiple bad entries, they would have to make good with everybody. The site would not allow inflammatory types of comments about a company; only facts. Each entry would be reviewed and approved before being posted. There would have to be supporting data too... for example, let's say a company refused to pay your last invoice. You would need to provide a copy of your last invoice and a work log to document it. All listings would have to include proof that you actually worked for the company... e.g. copies of pay stubs, a copy of the contract, etc. Otherwise the site could be used for extortion and would lose it's advantage because it wouldn't be taken seriously. So, the point is to help show companies that they have to treat consultants well... pay their people what they're owed, treat them kindly, etc. Otherwise these companies may find themselves unable to get people to work for them anymore. I don't see this being a lawsuit magnet either. Each posting would have to be factual, not emotional. No slanderous or libelous remarks. Just facts. It would boil down to the consultant's word against the company. No names of people would be mentioned, so you couldn't call people out by name. You could go as far as to say your supervisor was a micro-manager but you couldn't say, my supervisor, Bill Smith, was a micro-manager and was always giving me a hard time. Sure, the easier way is to just post about 'em here on cf-jobs-talk, but then you're likely to end up with a bad rap since a lot of job posters read this list too, no doubt looking for anybody who might be willing to speak out. I haven't really decided what to call the site either. I'm not even sure yet if I'll do it; I'm curious to hear what others think of the idea. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3591 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
*cough* liability *cough* Seeing as how it is anonymous, companies would come after the site owner for anything they feel is untruthful (you know, the beyond the shadow of a doubt type thing). Be careful trying to recreate a judicial court. On Jan 31, 2008 5:05 PM, Joseph Smuzynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. The idea is to have a site where consultants of all types can come and anonymously post their negative experiences with various companies, large or small. The hope is that with proper marketing, it will become the first place a consultant comes to check out a company before doing work for them. If a company ends up with a negative listing, the way they get the listing removed is to make good with the consultant, then the consultant can mark the case closed. Naturally, if they have multiple bad entries, they would have to make good with everybody. The site would not allow inflammatory types of comments about a company; only facts. Each entry would be reviewed and approved before being posted. There would have to be supporting data too... for example, let's say a company refused to pay your last invoice. You would need to provide a copy of your last invoice and a work log to document it. All listings would have to include proof that you actually worked for the company... e.g. copies of pay stubs, a copy of the contract, etc. Otherwise the site could be used for extortion and would lose it's advantage because it wouldn't be taken seriously. So, the point is to help show companies that they have to treat consultants well... pay their people what they're owed, treat them kindly, etc. Otherwise these companies may find themselves unable to get people to work for them anymore. I don't see this being a lawsuit magnet either. Each posting would have to be factual, not emotional. No slanderous or libelous remarks. Just facts. It would boil down to the consultant's word against the company. No names of people would be mentioned, so you couldn't call people out by name. You could go as far as to say your supervisor was a micro-manager but you couldn't say, my supervisor, Bill Smith, was a micro-manager and was always giving me a hard time. Sure, the easier way is to just post about 'em here on cf-jobs-talk, but then you're likely to end up with a bad rap since a lot of job posters read this list too, no doubt looking for anybody who might be willing to speak out. I haven't really decided what to call the site either. I'm not even sure yet if I'll do it; I'm curious to hear what others think of the idea. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3589 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Trevor: That's an interesting idea. I'll admit the idea crossed my mind, but I quickly dismissed it, because of the name-mentioning necessity. Since many consultants are individuals, or their business name is their name, it would end up being finger-pointing. If we could come up with a way to make it workable, it's a really good idea. With regard to liability... after more thought, I wonder if freestyle comments (even if edited) should even be allowed. If the poster simply chooses from one or more checkboxes to describe the situation, it should help keep things more manageable. Like another said, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet either. Heck, if there's anybody out there who likes the idea as much as I do and wants to help, email me off-list and let's talk. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3593 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Checkbox criteria would definitely make it much better. On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:42 PM, Joseph Smuzynski wrote: Trevor: That's an interesting idea. I'll admit the idea crossed my mind, but I quickly dismissed it, because of the name-mentioning necessity. Since many consultants are individuals, or their business name is their name, it would end up being finger-pointing. If we could come up with a way to make it workable, it's a really good idea. With regard to liability... after more thought, I wonder if freestyle comments (even if edited) should even be allowed. If the poster simply chooses from one or more checkboxes to describe the situation, it should help keep things more manageable. Like another said, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet either. Heck, if there's anybody out there who likes the idea as much as I do and wants to help, email me off-list and let's talk. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3594 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Sometimes it's best just to learn from your bad experiences and just move on. Spending too much time stewing (in public) can be very counter-productive. -Cameron Joseph Smuzynski wrote: After dealing with a few too many disreputable companies, I'm just about ready to build a new site that is sort of a cross between f*ckedcompany.comand ChexSystems. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3592 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
Some of the issues I have encountered in the past is temp tech jobs recruiting for other contractors an the other subcontractor being the worst link in the chain. I started working on a project once with about 50 people and most contractors rapidly dropped off because of harsh treatment with the other company in the middle. On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:42 PM, Joseph Smuzynski wrote: Trevor: That's an interesting idea. I'll admit the idea crossed my mind, but I quickly dismissed it, because of the name-mentioning necessity. Since many consultants are individuals, or their business name is their name, it would end up being finger-pointing. If we could come up with a way to make it workable, it's a really good idea. With regard to liability... after more thought, I wonder if freestyle comments (even if edited) should even be allowed. If the poster simply chooses from one or more checkboxes to describe the situation, it should help keep things more manageable. Like another said, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet either. Heck, if there's anybody out there who likes the idea as much as I do and wants to help, email me off-list and let's talk. Joe ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3595 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Consultant's Revenge
What about the flip-side of that coin ... A site for employers to review their contracted hire. Why not build both into the site with the ability to tag them together and to facilitate conflict resolution? This could be quite the lucritive venture if done properly. The way I understand it, some variation of theme is already built into rentacoder.com for example... There are a couple of problems with that, one being that it's just for projects contracted through rentacoder and the other being that rentacoder is like a lot of sites / software a great example of now not to design ergonomic software that people can actually use. ymmv -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3596 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
