Re: CF Job Market
That's true. It takes about 3 to 5 years to learn a computer language really well. I mean, 3 years of working with the language almost daily. This is also a reason why we are suppose to get paid good money. We take 5 years of our time to be really good at a programming language. If you think about it, every time that you take 5 years of your lifetime to learn a computer language, you could be earning a Bachelors Degree. This is the kind of field that you need to be on top of it or you will fall behind quickly. You really need to love doing this thing. There are many frustrations that come with the job and if you don't know how to work them, you suffer. Unless you are beginner, do not settle for anything less than 60k especially if you have a Bachelors Degree in Computer Science, Mathematics or Information Technology. If you have a major in Electrical Engineering then you should be getting paid even more money. Just my $0.02, Ravi. Justin Scott wrote: > Adam Reynolds wrote: > >> Or better still learn Flex/Air. Look at upcoming technologies where the >> number of skilled individuals is low. >> >> Don't go down the "I'll learn Java route" because honestly you need 3+ >> years commercial experience. >> > > You could say that about almost any skilled position in many industries. > > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4148 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Adam Reynolds wrote: > Or better still learn Flex/Air. Look at upcoming technologies where the > number of skilled individuals is low. > > Don't go down the "I'll learn Java route" because honestly you need 3+ > years commercial experience. You could say that about almost any skilled position in many industries. -- Justin Scott, http://www.tlson.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4146 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Hello Adam, I couldn't agree more with you. Ravi. Adam Reynolds wrote: > Or better still learn Flex/Air. Look at upcoming technologies where the > number of skilled individuals is low. > > Don't go down the "I'll learn Java route" because honestly you need 3+ > years commercial experience. > > Ravi Gehlot wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> As we all know the economy is not doing so well. It does not matter >> how much one can say that it is unfair to blame the economy (as I have >> heard) but there have been many job cuts. Many programmers are out of >> their jobs because either companies are afraid to expand or just don't >> have the money to hire more work force. So there are fewer jobs and >> there will be even more cuts as the next president tries to fix this >> mess that the current president left (lets not get into politics here). >> I will give you an example, about 2 to 3 years ago, I used to search for >> CF jobs on monster.com and I would often get impressed with the amount >> of available positions that that search used to return. It felt like >> employers were seeking candidates at all times and everywhere. If you >> try to do a search now, you will not get many jobs. You try to contact >> the fewer ones left and they are already interviewing 3 to 5 other >> candidates for that spot. >> Here is what I recommend you. Do not get stuck with just one >> language. Regardless of its popularity, try to learn another skill. For >> instance, for as much as people complain that PHP is nothing but a mess, >> it is the one that offers the most jobs. If you know PHP really well >> chances are that you will find a job somewhere or even an outsourced >> position (Yes, people also outsource jobs to the U.S.). >> I am have been trying to learn Ruby and PHP. Why not? >> >> >> Always remember: "Don't let others say you can't do just because they >> can't do it" >> >> >> Good Luck, >> Ravi Gehlot. >> >> >> >> Hi all, My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the economy the way it is here in the US. What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the same efficiency. Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF market. Thanks! Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4145 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Or better still learn Flex/Air. Look at upcoming technologies where the number of skilled individuals is low. Don't go down the "I'll learn Java route" because honestly you need 3+ years commercial experience. Ravi Gehlot wrote: > Dave, > > As we all know the economy is not doing so well. It does not matter > how much one can say that it is unfair to blame the economy (as I have > heard) but there have been many job cuts. Many programmers are out of > their jobs because either companies are afraid to expand or just don't > have the money to hire more work force. So there are fewer jobs and > there will be even more cuts as the next president tries to fix this > mess that the current president left (lets not get into politics here). > I will give you an example, about 2 to 3 years ago, I used to search for > CF jobs on monster.com and I would often get impressed with the amount > of available positions that that search used to return. It felt like > employers were seeking candidates at all times and everywhere. If you > try to do a search now, you will not get many jobs. You try to contact > the fewer ones left and they are already interviewing 3 to 5 other > candidates for that spot. > Here is what I recommend you. Do not get stuck with just one > language. Regardless of its popularity, try to learn another skill. For > instance, for as much as people complain that PHP is nothing but a mess, > it is the one that offers the most jobs. If you know PHP really well > chances are that you will find a job somewhere or even an outsourced > position (Yes, people also outsource jobs to the U.S.). > I am have been trying to learn Ruby and PHP. Why not? > > > Always remember: "Don't let others say you can't do just because they > can't do it" > > > Good Luck, > Ravi Gehlot. > > > >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior >>> level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job >>> market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the >>> economy the way it is here in the US. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for >>> mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm >>> wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because >>> my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay >>> someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the >>> same efficiency. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread >>> will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's >>> really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF >>> market. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Phillips >>> > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4144 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Dave, As we all know the economy is not doing so well. It does not matter how much one can say that it is unfair to blame the economy (as I have heard) but there have been many job cuts. Many programmers are out of their jobs because either companies are afraid to expand or just don't have the money to hire more work force. So there are fewer jobs and there will be even more cuts as the next president tries to fix this mess that the current president left (lets not get into politics here). I will give you an example, about 2 to 3 years ago, I used to search for CF jobs on monster.com and I would often get impressed with the amount of available positions that that search used to return. It felt like employers were seeking candidates at all times and everywhere. If you try to do a search now, you will not get many jobs. You try to contact the fewer ones left and they are already interviewing 3 to 5 other candidates for that spot. Here is what I recommend you. Do not get stuck with just one language. Regardless of its popularity, try to learn another skill. For instance, for as much as people complain that PHP is nothing but a mess, it is the one that offers the most jobs. If you know PHP really well chances are that you will find a job somewhere or even an outsourced position (Yes, people also outsource jobs to the U.S.). I am have been trying to learn Ruby and PHP. Why not? Always remember: "Don't let others say you can't do just because they can't do it" Good Luck, Ravi Gehlot. >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior >> level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job >> market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the >> economy the way it is here in the US. >> >> >> >> What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for >> mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm >> wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because >> my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay >> someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the >> same efficiency. >> >> >> >> Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread >> will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's >> really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF >> market. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4143 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Dave, To get back to the original posting's question; I think you will do fine. In my experience, limited as it is, good CF programmers, and maybe CF programmers in general, are getting fewer and fewer. Remember when Allaire first sold out to Macromedia? How many discussions were there that this was the end of CF, that Macromedia wouldn't support it. Same thing when Adobe took over. I don't see younger programmers (I'm 47) going into CF, and there are a ton of great apps out there that are written in CF, with companies behind them who love the speed and reliability of CF. I can code in ASP, I just hate it; to me it's Web Application programming for Dummies; do it our way, or we'll make it painful. In a worst case scenario, I think that in 10 years' time, we might be like COBOL programmers, working in an 'out of date' technology, but making a fortune, because there are so few of us. Just my 2 cents, before I've finished my first cup of tea! Kathryn >Hi all, > > > >My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior >level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job >market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the >economy the way it is here in the US. > > > >What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for >mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm >wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because >my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay >someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the >same efficiency. > > > >Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread >will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's >really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF >market. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4142 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
Hello Daryl, I did check the web site and I see that Ruby is doing really well. But I wonder, how does oDesk compute its trends? You also have to consider that ColdFusion is well known in the United States but not as much in other parts of the world. For instance, Ruby is well known in Asia, U.S. and parts of Europe so trends for Ruby is logically higher to those of other languages like ColdFusion. So I am curious as to how oDesk.com is calculating its trends and what its taking into consideration. If we take PHP into consideration, it is widely used throughout the world so I assume that its trends are among the highest. Just because outsourcing is stronger for other languages does not mean that CF is not as strong. The market for CF in the U.S. is one of the bests and it pays really well. I know people getting paid about 100k. There are also jobs throughout the country. If you consider outsourcing, then you may want to use PHP. Thanks for sharing this info though. Just my $0.02, Ravi. Daryl James wrote: > Hi, my name is Daryl and I'm with oDesk. I don't necessarily have a clear > answer to your question on future direction, but as an outsourcing site, we > generally get a good idea of trends in their early stages, so, if you're > interested and wish to keep an eye on ColdFusion trends, please feel free to > visit http://www.odesk.com/trends/coldfusion to see what's happening in the > outsourcing marketplace as far as CF is concerned. > > Not sure if you've considered looking into other languages, but there's also > a good article over on our blog about what's in demand right now and is > likely to continue to be over at > http://www.odesk.com/blog/2008/12/stay-employed-web-developer-skills-in-most-demand-php-ajax-mysql/. > I hope this helps. Best of luck. > - Daryl James > oDesk > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4141 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
The second issue of the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update was all about CF and OO. I'd say it's a good place to start. -- Michael Dinowitz (http://www.linkedin.com/in/mdinowitz) President: House of Fusion(http://www.houseoffusion.com) Publisher: Fusion Authority(http://www.fusionauthority.com) Adobe Community Expert / Advanced Certified ColdFusion Professional ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4122 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
> Software development technology changes too fast for people to rest their > laurels and not keep up. That's why I always recommend looking at the past 3 > years experience on a candidate's resume since anything after that for the > most part may not be helpful to me or the intended client. If by "anything after that" you mean "anything before that", then you may be missing rather a lot. It's well over 20 years since I first started doing relational database design, SQL, UNIX, TCP/IP, systems analysis, object-oriented programming, agile project management, test-driven development, automated builds and version control. HTTP and HTML have been around for well over a decade. None of these things are remotely new. The most complicated and important component of any system - the human being - is also quite an old design. What are the seismic changes that have taken place in software development over the last three years that have made those technologies pale into insignificance? From a web development point of view, the biggest recent innovation that I can think of is ASP.NET's event model, which is so contrived that it *deserves* to be met with "hesitation and disdain" - and that's at least 6 or 7 years old. Nick ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4121 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Dave Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior > level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job > market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the > economy the way it is here in the US. Just this week I began looking for a new job. I originally posted my experience of about 10 years and listed some frameworks and front-end stuff I've been using. The response has been good, and if I was more willing to relocate I would be entertaining more opportunities than I can shake a stick at. As Dave mentioned, there have been quite a few junior / beginner positions posted to the list lately. However, the people that have contacted me with opportunities have not been posting to CF-Jobs, Monster or anywhere. It seems that senior level positions are often not posted like that, but spread through word of mouth or word of internet. So from what I've seen in the past 4 days is that the market is still good, but your location and willingness to relocate may play a big factor in the opportunities you find. -- Matt Williams "It's the question that drives us." ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4120 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
The internet is your best friend in learning OO theory. I'm fortunate that my local CFUG has an OO god, in Dan Wilson who speaks at just about every meeting, and is more than willing to answer the kind of stupid questions I'll ask. Anymore I take my laptop with me to interviews, I have CF and SQL Server 2005 running on it and I show people what I'm working on or fooling around with. Just keep programming, and reading and asking questions no matter how stupid they may sound to you. We're fortunate that ColdFusion has a large developer community that's very willing to offer up answers and advice, take advantage of it. s. isaac dealey wrote: > Scott Stewart wrote: > >> I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO. >> It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better >> developer. >> >> CF Developer wrote: >> >>> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years >>> as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental >>> understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, >>> ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a >>> front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) >>> framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks >>> didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue >>> enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw >>> it out? I hope not. >>> > > Sorry for the length -- I'm having difficulty editing this email. > There's a question for the recruiters / hiring managers at the bottom. > > I was having kind of similar thoughts reading this thread, although I > was hesitant to post a response. I may not be the most typical example > though because I happen to be autistic and I defy the stereotypes of > autism by also being very outgoing and have worked hard to do things > like blog and write magazine articles. I'm entirely self taught because > I botched my opportunity for college when I was younger and then taught > myself OO programming in C++ from books in '97-98 shortly before my > first ColdFusion job. > > Although it may sound egotistical, over the years the CF community has > gradually moved more and more toward a style of OO development that more > closely resembles the way I've always worked. I had developed techniques > for creating polymorphism with ColdFusion 3 or 4 long before there were > CFCs. I wasn't the only one, there was the CFObjects project also as an > example. I was designing software in a "Convention over Configuration" > way long before I knew there was a name for it. And with recent versions > of ColdBox and Fusebox that idea has become much more popular. I also > started doing database abstraction with ColdFusion 5, long before it was > practical. These days it's commonplace in the ColdFusion community. So > for me, rather than getting "stuck in a rut", I've always been "ahead of > my time". > > I also have kind of a history of accomplishing "the impossible". Things > that had been literally described as impossible by people with far more > experience than I have, like Sean Corfield or the engineering team at > Macromedia, and I didn't just do something "like" it or something > "similar to" what they described. I did exactly what they described as > having been impossible. A large part of the reason why I've been able to > do that is because in spite of having a decade of experience, I'm not > "stuck in my ways". I maintain an active spirit of experimentation. (I'm > not what you might call a nine-to-fiver who stops working when they're > off the clock. And I know some of the other folks who've replied are > also similarly passionate about their careers and about learning.) > > And I give back to the community, or at least try to on a regular basis. > I recently published an upgrade path for legacy Fusebox applications. > Others in the Fusebox community seemed to be disinterested in making > that happen I think parimarily because they thought it would be really > difficult to accomplish. And I don't even use Fusebox for my own > projects -- I haven't for a long time (though I have for clients). But I > hammered out a solution in a few hours just because I saw a niche where > people were struggling with being "trapped" on an old version and I > wanted to help them out. > > Personally my biggest career challenge is social. It's a long story that > I won't get into right now, but it's something that's common to people > on the autism spectrum. So for right now I'm mostly hoping to hear more > from people interested in having me help them integrate my open-source > projects on a contract basis. I would certainly consider an > architect-level job, although I haven't been aggressively pursuing one. > > This message is probably longer than it should have been. That's one of > my challenges related to the autism. I'm not good at synopsis. ;) > However I do hav
Re: CF Job Market
Scott Stewart wrote: > I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO. > It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better > developer. > > CF Developer wrote: >> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years >> as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental >> understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, >> ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a >> front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) >> framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks >> didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue >> enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw >> it out? I hope not. Sorry for the length -- I'm having difficulty editing this email. There's a question for the recruiters / hiring managers at the bottom. I was having kind of similar thoughts reading this thread, although I was hesitant to post a response. I may not be the most typical example though because I happen to be autistic and I defy the stereotypes of autism by also being very outgoing and have worked hard to do things like blog and write magazine articles. I'm entirely self taught because I botched my opportunity for college when I was younger and then taught myself OO programming in C++ from books in '97-98 shortly before my first ColdFusion job. Although it may sound egotistical, over the years the CF community has gradually moved more and more toward a style of OO development that more closely resembles the way I've always worked. I had developed techniques for creating polymorphism with ColdFusion 3 or 4 long before there were CFCs. I wasn't the only one, there was the CFObjects project also as an example. I was designing software in a "Convention over Configuration" way long before I knew there was a name for it. And with recent versions of ColdBox and Fusebox that idea has become much more popular. I also started doing database abstraction with ColdFusion 5, long before it was practical. These days it's commonplace in the ColdFusion community. So for me, rather than getting "stuck in a rut", I've always been "ahead of my time". I also have kind of a history of accomplishing "the impossible". Things that had been literally described as impossible by people with far more experience than I have, like Sean Corfield or the engineering team at Macromedia, and I didn't just do something "like" it or something "similar to" what they described. I did exactly what they described as having been impossible. A large part of the reason why I've been able to do that is because in spite of having a decade of experience, I'm not "stuck in my ways". I maintain an active spirit of experimentation. (I'm not what you might call a nine-to-fiver who stops working when they're off the clock. And I know some of the other folks who've replied are also similarly passionate about their careers and about learning.) And I give back to the community, or at least try to on a regular basis. I recently published an upgrade path for legacy Fusebox applications. Others in the Fusebox community seemed to be disinterested in making that happen I think parimarily because they thought it would be really difficult to accomplish. And I don't even use Fusebox for my own projects -- I haven't for a long time (though I have for clients). But I hammered out a solution in a few hours just because I saw a niche where people were struggling with being "trapped" on an old version and I wanted to help them out. Personally my biggest career challenge is social. It's a long story that I won't get into right now, but it's something that's common to people on the autism spectrum. So for right now I'm mostly hoping to hear more from people interested in having me help them integrate my open-source projects on a contract basis. I would certainly consider an architect-level job, although I haven't been aggressively pursuing one. This message is probably longer than it should have been. That's one of my challenges related to the autism. I'm not good at synopsis. ;) However I do have a question here getting back to the subject. What are the best strategies for a person like myself who's been doing this for roughly a decade, if we wanted to aggressively pursue architect-level jobs? I think this goes straight back to Dave's questions. I know for a fact that I don't fit the stereotype of being an "old dog" (to whom new tricks can't be taught). And several of the other folks who've replied also fall in this category (I know some of them personally). So how does one of us quickly and effectively communicate that to a potential employer? Most of us don't have magazine articles to show and even for those of us who do it's kind of like blogs - the people doing the hiring frequently don't have the time to read them or the skill to be very discriminating about their content. An
RE: CF Job Market
Michael, "Long timers have their way and any other approach is met with hesitation and disdain." This is a personality issue, NOT a result of having 10+ years of experience. I know plenty of CFers who have been around for 10 years that are doing OOP in CF, including myself. Also, I 'embrace' new approaches, not meet them with 'hesitation and disdain'. It sounds to me like you've just had some bad experiences. Dave -Original Message- From: Michael MacDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:37 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: RE: CF Job Market Michael, You make a great point and your grasp of the reality of the current landscape is commendable. I am actually looking for Jr-Mid-Level CFMX programmers for this exact reason. Those with less "time in the market" typically are less procedural and more likely to have an OO state of mind. Also, our company is looking to move to .NET in the future and having someone who 1) knows CFMX from a CFC/OO standpoint will be more likely to understand the architectural challenges of the OO world 2) they are more likely to have a CS degree 3) They haven't developed a view of "the way things should be". Long timers have their way and any other approach is met with hesitation and disdain. Also, "greener" programmers are more likely to have developed in Agile project management style organizations. If they haven't they are less likely to rebuff this approach. I want to preface all my comments with the fact that this is my view and not the entire IT fields perspective. Thanks, Michael MacDonald Sr VP, Product Development / NEOGOV [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Michael Perlstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:15 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: RE: CF Job Market I don't think it's all about salary. Most people from my experience who have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language. In fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher the chances they use it in a procedural capacity. This is especially true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel comfortable with. But even in circumstances where they know Java or ...Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language they revert to the procedural form. Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++. They program oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other way. So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with all the benefits of a true oop background.. Regards, Michael Perlstein VP Program Management Rockville, MD 301.468.9246 x154 301.468.9670 (f) 703-869-6086 (m) www.AboutWeb.com -Original Message- From:Dave Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "cf-jobs-talk" ; Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM Subject: CF Job Market Hi all, My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the economy the way it is here in the US. What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the same efficiency. Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF market. Thanks! Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4116 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO. It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better developer. CF Developer wrote: > I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF > developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding > of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and Transfer > (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller, too), and even > built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized problems that the > standard frameworks didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and > high-revenue enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and > throw it out? I hope not. > > I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime > freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread. > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4115 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
I have been working with it since it basically came out in the 90s. I do some OO and some procedural, it really depends on who I am doing work for. For example some of the places I do work for have their own inhouse frameworks and methodologies which are not OO but that is what you use when you do work for them. Then at the same time I might be doing an all OO based application for some other client because either they requested it or they did not specify and I just wanted to do it that way. When I look at people with 10+ years of experience I think beyond what their CF skills are, I think of where their SQL skills should be amongst other things like JS and so on but SQL probably is the bigger one for me. On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 2:03 PM, CF Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF > developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding > of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and > Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller, > too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized > problems that the standard frameworks didn't. I have architected > high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue enterprise applications. Would > you see 10 years on my resume and throw it out? I hope not. > > I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime > freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread. > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4114 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw it out? I hope not. I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4113 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: CF Job Market
Michael, You make a great point and your grasp of the reality of the current landscape is commendable. I am actually looking for Jr-Mid-Level CFMX programmers for this exact reason. Those with less "time in the market" typically are less procedural and more likely to have an OO state of mind. Also, our company is looking to move to .NET in the future and having someone who 1) knows CFMX from a CFC/OO standpoint will be more likely to understand the architectural challenges of the OO world 2) they are more likely to have a CS degree 3) They haven't developed a view of "the way things should be". Long timers have their way and any other approach is met with hesitation and disdain. Also, "greener" programmers are more likely to have developed in Agile project management style organizations. If they haven't they are less likely to rebuff this approach. I want to preface all my comments with the fact that this is my view and not the entire IT fields perspective. Thanks, Michael MacDonald Sr VP, Product Development / NEOGOV [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Michael Perlstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:15 PM To: cf-jobs-talk Subject: RE: CF Job Market I don't think it's all about salary. Most people from my experience who have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language. In fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher the chances they use it in a procedural capacity. This is especially true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel comfortable with. But even in circumstances where they know Java or ..Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language they revert to the procedural form. Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++. They program oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other way. So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with all the benefits of a true oop background.. Regards, Michael Perlstein VP Program Management Rockville, MD 301.468.9246 x154 301.468.9670 (f) 703-869-6086 (m) www.AboutWeb.com -Original Message- From:Dave Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "cf-jobs-talk" ; Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM Subject: CF Job Market Hi all, My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the economy the way it is here in the US. What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the same efficiency. Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF market. Thanks! Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4112 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: CF Job Market
I am not looking for work and have not been in a long time but I still continue to get contacted by places looking to hire people with my skill set. To me it does not seem like the market has lesson any and perhaps has even increased. I am sure that greatly depends on where someone is located amongst other things. On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Dave Phillips < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior > level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job > market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the > economy the way it is here in the US. > > > > What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking > for > mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm > wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because > my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay > someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the > same efficiency. > > > > Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread > will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's > really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' > CF > market. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Dave Phillips > > > > > > > > > > ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4111 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: CF Job Market
I don't think it's all about salary. Most people from my experience who have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language. In fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher the chances they use it in a procedural capacity. This is especially true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel comfortable with. But even in circumstances where they know Java or .Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language they revert to the procedural form. Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++. They program oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other way. So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with all the benefits of a true oop background.. Regards, Michael Perlstein VP Program Management Rockville, MD 301.468.9246 x154 301.468.9670 (f) 703-869-6086 (m) www.AboutWeb.com -Original Message- From:Dave Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "cf-jobs-talk" ; Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM Subject: CF Job Market Hi all, My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the economy the way it is here in the US. What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the same efficiency. Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF market. Thanks! Dave Phillips ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/message.cfm/messageid:4110 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
