[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
Hi Yoav, In general it would be much easier to have a discussion if you could refer to a specific narrowly-focused bug in your email. Just saying that an area is generally broken it's hard to understand what specific aspect you're talking about. So: What exact functionality is broken, and how do you propose to fix it? Also, I think there are currently many more important (and far easier) bugs in Chrome/WebKit around BiDi support, perhaps it would make sense to look at those first. Some notable low hanging fruit: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3710 - Directional caret support. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19785 - Select doesn't work right for dir=rtl. So to try to address your email: Chrome has (to my knowledge) 2 types of controls: 1) Native OS controls - OmniBox, the Find bar, etc. 2) Controls drawn by WebKit - basically all controls that are part of a Web Page. Regarding #1 - Native OS controls: Keep in mind that there are platform conventions for how native controls behave, I'd be concerned with confusing users. Regarding #2 - WebKit controls: While there are still some open bugs around caret movement and drawing in WebKit controls, much of the current behavior reflects explicit design decisions. If you think this functionality is broken, it might be good to look at the WebKit bug database to see if there's already a bug open around the issue you want to fix. If there is you might want to leave a comment in the bug with a proposed fix. A final thought: Getting BiDi cursor movement correct is non-trivial, there are no standards in this area and many corner cases. Best regards, Jeremy On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this post will only make sense to those who speak hebrew or arabic as you know, the selection in windows of text in a mixed hebrew english text is at best a joke nobody understands it natively, and the cursor (caret in windows jargon) movement is also very awkward (right goes left, left goes right you know what i mean) my point is this if i get it right (i did debug chrome for the last 2 weeks) you seem to have written your own controls, so why not do it right this time for the entire arab/hebrew world ? since you anyways use UTF16 and you it has all the chars neccessary (the change direction and pop direction and the like) wouldn't it be great if chrome would make RTL the way it should have been ? i would be happy to do it myself, i have all the knowledge to do it in windows but i, of course, am still kinda new to chrome so i would prob need some help in doing it also, if you like this idea, there needs to be someone who can help me with the arabic part this is a huge task, to be sure, but i think it would be worth doing, especially that the hebrew support in windows has been really bad for years (don't know how mac/linux handle it) so any thoughts will be welcome, you can also say NO, Thank you and that would also be cool --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
hey jeremy, i hope this text below would come out right יואב Zilberberg הוא 123 but!!! אולי even if you cut paste the below to notepad (assuming you have a hebrew keyb support) you will see that the caret in windows itself moves in a crazy way since i am a programmer for a long time i know the reason for it (also in my prog career got a chance to talk to MS ppl and they hate it too ... there is a rumor that will bill gates saw what they did with hebrew he nearly killed those programmers) but just travel with the cursor on this text and you will see the joke in windows itself i thought it would be very cool if chrome and other google products would support a Sane hebrew (cold also be a huge benefit for chrome, making RTL right!) regardless, once i get the builds of chrome right, i will move to fix hebrew bugs in chrome just thought it would be cool to get it ALL right and you must have some native hebrew/arab speaking ppl in chrome ask them what they think of the native windows support and once again, i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and see how windows behaves --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: יואב Zilberberg הוא 123 but!!! אולי ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and see how windows behaves It's not just Windows. Firefox on Linux does this, too. And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way. If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard, sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it an option that's off by default, because people are going to get severe vertigo switching back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and our special one. - Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
There are quite a few thorny corner cases around BiDi editing and cursor movement, I don't think there's any point in having a discussion about this stuff unless we have a handle on what we want to fix and exactly how we plan to fix it. Also, IMHO, it would be better to iron out some of the basic BiDi bugs in Chrome WebKit before embarking on this stuff. Best regards, Jeremy On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Dan Kegel daniel.r.ke...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: יואב Zilberberg הוא 123 but!!! אולי ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and see how windows behaves It's not just Windows. Firefox on Linux does this, too. And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way. If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard, sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it an option that's off by default, because people are going to get severe vertigo switching back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and our special one. - Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
Yoav, I'm glad to hear you're interested in helping make Chromium better! The best way to get started is to get specific broken behaviors documented as bugs and then work on fixing the bugs. We already have a lot on file: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list?can=2q=label:RTL http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list?can=2q=label:RTLThe label RTL is used to label most BiDi and RTL bugs. We'd welcome all the help we can get to fix these, especially Xiomei (xji@) who's been doing a lot of work on this in Chromium and WebKit recently. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 09:44, Jeremy Moskovich jer...@chromium.org wrote: There are quite a few thorny corner cases around BiDi editing and cursor movement, I don't think there's any point in having a discussion about this stuff unless we have a handle on what we want to fix and exactly how we plan to fix it. Also, IMHO, it would be better to iron out some of the basic BiDi bugs in Chrome WebKit before embarking on this stuff. Best regards, Jeremy On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Dan Kegel daniel.r.ke...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: יואב Zilberberg הוא 123 but!!! אולי ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and see how windows behaves It's not just Windows. Firefox on Linux does this, too. And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way. If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard, sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it an option that's off by default, because people are going to get severe vertigo switching back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and our special one. - Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
*sigh* i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar here is the much shorter version : tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control) also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual selection is a bad thing if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT, when is it ever a bad idea to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you imagine numbers or other things) nvm, as for chrome, just one example : if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)) with hebrew UI you will see the localized version of this file could harm but the buttons are to the right of this message which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good thing, do you have some design doc about how you wanted RTL to look ? another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the pie chart grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J) it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!) but which one did you think is the more correct behavior ? CW ? CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am quite excited about chrome programming but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
If you post a link to a bug that describes a single, concrete, narrowly defined issue along with a proposed solution we can discuss that. I understand you see allot of stuff you want to fix, which is great. But if you continue to post messages that contain a bunch of different issues mixed together it's very hard to have any kind of meaningful discussion. My comment about the importance of fixing more fundamental existing bugs stands. Best regards, Jeremy On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:42 PM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: *sigh* i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar here is the much shorter version : tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control) also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual selection is a bad thing if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT, when is it ever a bad idea to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you imagine numbers or other things) nvm, as for chrome, just one example : if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)) with hebrew UI you will see the localized version of this file could harm but the buttons are to the right of this message which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good thing, do you have some design doc about how you wanted RTL to look ? another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the pie chart grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J) it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!) but which one did you think is the more correct behavior ? CW ? CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am quite excited about chrome programming but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
Hi Yoav, On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:42 PM, nakro yoav.zilberb...@gmail.com wrote: *sigh* i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar here is the much shorter version : tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control) also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual selection is a bad thing if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT, when is it ever a bad idea to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you imagine numbers or other things) At the very beginning of the email, he mentioned that This question does not have a definite right answer.. I think shift+arrow follows logical order is because it is a selection operation, which often used for cut/copy/paste, in which, it makes sense to copy the text that are logically(not visually) continuous together. There is a chrome bug http://crbug.com/8141related to shift+arrow. There are some native speakers who actively working/commenting on the bug. From the bug (and its related bugs) history, looks like logical order is what they are expecting as well. Again, both Uri and the IBM document mentioned selection could follow visual or logical order. And Chrome could provide a toggle between visual order and logical order, like what Firefox does. But I do not think we are in that stage yet. nvm, as for chrome, just one example : if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)) with hebrew UI you will see the localized version of this file could harm but the buttons are to the right of this message which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good thing, do you have some design doc about how you wanted RTL to look ? I think that is a bug. Could you please kindly file a bug? If you think Chrome does not work correctly in any case, you could file a bug. And it is helpful to file bug with concrete information (you can search the bugs xlyuan filed for reference). Chrome is still improving its quality in RTL languages, and we might overlooked some issues before. If there is doubt on whether the bug you filed is a bug or not, we can discuss it. We do have a UI mirroring infrastructure design dochttp://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/ui-mirroring-infrastructure, which focused mostly on how Chrome implement its UI mirroring in windows. another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the pie chart grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J) it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!) but which one did you think is the more correct behavior ? CW ? CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent I agree that it should be consistent. But I am not sure which way is more intuitive to native speakers. Could you please kindly file a bug? There are some experienced/knowledgeable native speaker developers, and there are some native speakers actively working with us to improve Chrome's quality. We can discuss the desired behavior in the bug. i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am quite excited about chrome programming but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ? We'd love if you could contribute. As I mentioned before, we have talented and passionate native speakers in chromium community. The best way to start contribute is to file bug with concrete information, and *we* (not only chrome programmer) can discuss the right solution. It is always a good idea to track issues down, and tackle them one by one. Thanks, Xiaomei --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)
Xiaomei, i have reported these issues http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13215 http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13216 http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13217 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Chromium Developers mailing list: chromium-dev@googlegroups.com View archives, change email options, or unsubscribe: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
