Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[MatN]

Today I had time to compare this track up/down behaviour with the 2020-05 and
2020-06 statics for Mint. I am not a regular video editor, but to me it looks
that the 2020-05 behaviour is much more logical. The 2020-06 method is not a
move, but a roll, which does not change the order of the tracks, except
bottom and top one. Indeed you can do an actual shift with the mouse, but it
is unconvenient.
I personally don't see a use for this roll function, but if there indeed is
one (experienced users may say) I suggest to give those extra menu points,
while for the actual shift retain the 2020-05 behaviour. on keyboard and
menu.

MatN

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 10:00:51 +0200, Igor BEGHETTO wrote:

>Thanks Phyllis for the Ubuntu 16 build.
>I saw in Tracks menu the "Swap tracks Up" and "Swap tracks Down" options 
>and, using RMB (Right Mouse button) over a track, the "Swap Up" and 
>"Swap Down".
>However I always use the shortcuts "Shift+Up" and "Shift+Down" to move 
>one or more track/s up or down, so I will continue to use an old Cin 
>version: 20200531 or/and 20191031 for the Nest to Clip bin issue (see 
>MantisBT #427).
>I repeat myself: I don't see any use on the new behaviour of Track Up 
>and Track Down. More, now you have the Tracks menu and the PopUp menu 
>with two new items added. I sincerely hope that GG restore the old 
>behaviour as it was at 20200531: it was perfect, and the "Move track/s 
>" names were right, from a point of view of the user.
>Thank you.
>
>IgorBeg
>
>
>Il 07/07/2020 22:27, Phyllis Smith ha scritto:
>> Here is a Ubuntu 16 build with the Swap Up/Down -- it should work the 
>> same as Move Up/Down did before.  If not, let me know.  Working on 
>> getting it back.
>> https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-ub16-x86_64-static.txz
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Igor BEGHETTO]

Thanks Phyllis for the Ubuntu 16 build.
I saw in Tracks menu the "Swap tracks Up" and "Swap tracks Down" options 
and, using RMB (Right Mouse button) over a track, the "Swap Up" and 
"Swap Down".
However I always use the shortcuts "Shift+Up" and "Shift+Down" to move 
one or more track/s up or down, so I will continue to use an old Cin 
version: 20200531 or/and 20191031 for the Nest to Clip bin issue (see 
MantisBT #427).
I repeat myself: I don't see any use on the new behaviour of Track Up 
and Track Down. More, now you have the Tracks menu and the PopUp menu 
with two new items added. I sincerely hope that GG restore the old 
behaviour as it was at 20200531: it was perfect, and the "Move track/s 
..." names were right, from a point of view of the user.

Thank you.

IgorBeg


Il 07/07/2020 22:27, Phyllis Smith ha scritto:
Here is a Ubuntu 16 build with the Swap Up/Down -- it should work the 
same as Move Up/Down did before.  If not, let me know.  Working on 
getting it back.

https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-ub16-x86_64-static.txz

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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

Here is a Ubuntu 16 build with the Swap Up/Down -- it should work the same
as Move Up/Down did before.  If not, let me know.  Working on getting it
back.

https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/testing/cinelerra-5.1-ub16-x86_64-static.txz

On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 3:42 AM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> === Move tracks Up & Move tracks Down (Shift+Up, Shift+Down) ===
>
> @GG
> Please, please, plesase, Could you restore the old Move tracks Up & Move
> tracks Down and their shortcut, please? I need them, I always use a lot
> of video and audio tracks (sometimes temporary video tracks for VFX)
> that I rearrange very quickly with Shift+UpArrow and Shift+DownArrow
> shortcuts. I hope you may understand.
> Thanks.
>
> @PhyllisSmith
> Thank you for your effort to convince GG to hear me.
>
> @Pierre, @RafaMar, @Sam, @Andrea_paz, @MatN
> Thank you so much for your support!
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

IgorBeg,
I am still working on it and hope to get this resolved before the end of
the month.
Meanwhile under the Tracks pulldown, there is "Swap tracks up" and "Swap
tracks down" that are the equivalent of the original Move Tracks Up/Down.
Do you need me to build a Ubuntu 16 version?

On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 3:42 AM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> === Move tracks Up & Move tracks Down (Shift+Up, Shift+Down) ===
>
> @GG
> Please, please, plesase, Could you restore the old Move tracks Up & Move
> tracks Down and their shortcut, please? I need them, I always use a lot
> of video and audio tracks (sometimes temporary video tracks for VFX)
> that I rearrange very quickly with Shift+UpArrow and Shift+DownArrow
> shortcuts. I hope you may understand.
> Thanks.
>
> @PhyllisSmith
> Thank you for your effort to convince GG to hear me.
>
> @Pierre, @RafaMar, @Sam, @Andrea_paz, @MatN
> Thank you so much for your support!
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Igor BEGHETTO]

=== Move tracks Up & Move tracks Down (Shift+Up, Shift+Down) ===

@GG
Please, please, plesase, Could you restore the old Move tracks Up & Move 
tracks Down and their shortcut, please? I need them, I always use a lot 
of video and audio tracks (sometimes temporary video tracks for VFX) 
that I rearrange very quickly with Shift+UpArrow and Shift+DownArrow 
shortcuts. I hope you may understand.

Thanks.

@PhyllisSmith
Thank you for your effort to convince GG to hear me.

@Pierre, @RafaMar, @Sam, @Andrea_paz, @MatN
Thank you so much for your support!
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[MatN]

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 09:30:22 +0200, Igor BEGHETTO wrote:

>> I apologize, Igor, for getting me into the conversation and expressing 
>> my opinion, my intention is to help in any way I can.
>Don't worry RafaMar. I think, you must write what you think,... always.
>And, maybe , this my post could be the last.

Hi Igor, 
I hope you stay around Cinelerra, you are a most valuable contributor. 
I understand if you are upset, but give it a while to see how this moves.

MatN




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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Andrea paz]

The yellow and red buttons are beautiful; I thought they didn't fit
well in the window and instead I find them well made. Buttons position
in the patchbay are OK, for me.

Allow me to speak in support of Igor: I also think it is better not to
have swap, but only "move up/down"; with the only rule that the Top
track cannot have "move up", but only "move down" (if you click "move
up" nothing happens). The bottom track can't have "move down" but only
"move up". This way you avoid the movement of the other tracks
especially in case some are armed and some are disarmed. In such cases
it is easy to get unplanned or unwanted results (see the Sam's demo).
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

I am still working on getting an explanation and a further compromise but
at least for now there is under the Tracks pulldown, "Swap Tracks Up/Down"
(checked into GIT, but we ran out of time to build a Ubuntu 16)  that I
believe works the same was as the original "Move Tracks Up/Down".

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 3:03 AM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> === Move tracks Up & Move tracks Down ===
> I attempt to explain a few of think.
> - It doesn't matter if my tutorials are outdate or less (them are very
> ugly for me). The thing is more important of my tutorials.
> - The names of the functions"Move tracks Up" and "Move tracks Down"
> were/are right.
> Keep in mind that you can move Up or Down a single track with RMB (Right
> Mouse Button) on a track (Armed or Disarmed) and choose the option "Move
> up" or "Move down", and it works right. It performs a kind of swap but
> the user is more comfortable with the name "Move" because other program
> that use Layers call that feature so.
> The "Move tracks Up" and "Move tracks Down" work in the same way  but on
> the Armed tracks. So you can use one or more tracks to perform that
> function:
> when perform that feature, with Up, the tracks move up, swapping with
> the track above, and when they reach the top, must stop on the top;
> when perform that feature, with Down, the tracks move down, swapping
> with the track below, and when they reach the bottom, must stop on the
> bottom.
> - With the new Gang mode the Move tracks Up & Move tracks Down feature
> should behave like the old behaviour do with the Armed tracks. So, if
> you have a Video track with its two Audio tracks below, when you use
> "Move tracks Up" and "Move tracks Down" they act as if they were armed,
> both in Gang_Channel mode and Gang_Media mode.
>
> - Layers (tracks) are important. The order of the tracks is important.
> The Top-Down order is important because is that you will see on the
> screen. The track above has priority over the track below.
> - I don't see any use with the new behaviour of "Move tracks Up" and
> "Move tracks Down" because the tracks rotate like on the wheel:
> when you use "Move tracks Up", what is on top will go on the bottom;
> when you use "Move tracks Down", what is on bottom will go on the top.
> This behaviour at my eyes is useless. May be that GG think different, of
> course, but He should explain what this change of function is for.
>
> No new function is needed for me. Just make the old one works again
> because it allows to be used in new Gang modes as well.
>
> Thank you.
>
> IgorBeg
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Sam]

Am 02.07.20 um 03:39 schrieb Phyllis Smith:
Would it be worth GG's time to add "roll up" and "roll down" choices 
to mimic the original behavior?
I think that it is problematic if we change the behaviour and thereby 
tutorials like Igor's lose their validity. There is a lot of work and 
time to create such videos. I would rather suggest to keep the old 
shortcuts with the old behaviour and combine the new shortcuts with the 
new behaviour. This way the tutorials are still valid and GG's preferred 
behaviour can be added by using the "Roll up" and "Roll down" buttons, 
so the old users have their favourite handling and new features can be 
added without breaking the old one.


If the name of the menus disturbs GG, I have the following suggestion. 
The menu Tracks still has a lot of space, let's add two more entries, as 
an example I would write "Roll tracks up" and "Roll tracks down". 
Because in my opinion it is exactly this behavior that the new feature 
represents. I don't know if the name choice is so correct in English, 
English to not my native language, but I think you understand what I mean.


Sam
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Rafa Mar Multimedia en Gnu\Linux]

Igor, for me you are an icon of Cinelerra, it would be very sad if this
were your last complaint or suggestion. You are a very important person at
Cinelerra GG.
It is true that perhaps before it was more logical to move the tracks, but
it is seen that when introducing these new features the programmer has been
forced to change its operation to avoid problems, I do not know, I do not
know how to program.
As I said at the beginning, for me you are a reference in Cinelerra and
your video tutorials are very inspiring for me. I am very sad if this is
going to be your last suggestion or complaint.
Greetings Igor, I wish to exchange impressions with you again.

El jue., 2 jul. 2020 a las 9:30, Igor BEGHETTO ()
escribió:

> > I apologize, Igor, for getting me into the conversation and expressing
> > my opinion, my intention is to help in any way I can.
> Don't worry RafaMar. I think, you must write what you think,... always.
> And, maybe , this my post could be the last.
>
> IgorBeg
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Igor BEGHETTO]

I apologize, Igor, for getting me into the conversation and expressing 
my opinion, my intention is to help in any way I can.

Don't worry RafaMar. I think, you must write what you think,... always.
And, maybe , this my post could be the last.

IgorBeg
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

Would it be worth GG's time to add "roll up" and "roll down" choices to
mimic the original behavior?

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 2:42 PM Sam  wrote:

> I watched the Igor's video. I don't like working with locked tracks, so I
> thought my suggestion would be a nice addition. On second thought, it makes
> sense the way you described it. I agree with Igor and Pierre's opinion that
> previous behaviour is more useful. Here are two videos that show the
> differences between old and new behaviour.
>
> Old: https://streamable.com/0nxukf
>
> New: https://streamable.com/xjaggs
>
> Sam
>
>
> Am 01.07.20 um 22:37 schrieb Phyllis Smith:
>
> Igor,  (I was hoping the problem had to do with disarmed tracks.)  I can
> not convince GG that it should not be changed back.
> Here is GG's logic looking at your 1st 3 lines in YouTube moving tracks
> example:
>
> DisarmedCreditsTrack 1
> DisarmedIntro  Track 2
> Armed   VFX_TextTrack 3
>
> OK, you use "Move *Up*":
> Moving VFX_Text  up by 1 track means it should go from Track 3
> minus 1 = Track 2  (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
> Moving Intro up by 1 track means it should go from Track 2
> minus 1 = Track 1   (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
> So now Credits   has only 1 way to go up and that is all the way
> to the bottom
> *This is the only consistent logic.  Previously once you got to the top
> you "swapped" the 2 tracks -- that is not a "move up".*
>
> Another example going further down in your video:
> Disarmed VFX ArrowTrack #5  "move up" goes to Track #6
> ???  -- makes more logic sense to go to Track 5 - 1 = Track 4
> (this looks like "move
> down", not up)
>
> Disarmed VFX AnimLine Track #7   "move up" goes to Track
> #9 ??? -- makes more logic sense to got to Track 7 - 1 = Track 6
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:
>
>> It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't depends
>> by group of audio tracks.
>> MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous release) with
>> Armed tracks.
>> No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is based
>> on the armed tracks.
>> So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its two
>> (or more) audio tracks,
>> even though not close.
>>
>> If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with
>> Cin_20200630, please?
>>
>> === CASE_1 ===
>> State t=0
>> -V3 (disarmed)
>> -V2 (disarmed)
>> -V1 (armed)
>> -A1 (armed)
>> -A2 (armed)
>>
>> State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
>>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
>> -+--
>> -V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
>> -V1 (armed)  | -V1 (armed)
>> -A1 (armed)  | -A1 (armed)
>> -A2 (armed)  | -A2 (armed)
>> -V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)
>>
>>
>>
>> === Case_2 ===
>> State t=0
>> -V3 (armed)
>> -V2 (disarmed)
>> -V1 (disarmed)
>> -A1 (disarmed)
>> -A2 (disarmed)
>>
>> State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
>>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
>> -+--
>> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
>> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
>> -V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
>> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
>> -A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
>>
>> State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
>>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
>> -+--
>> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
>> -V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
>> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
>> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
>> -A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>> IgorBeg
>>
>> PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Sam]

I watched the Igor's video. I don't like working with locked tracks, so 
I thought my suggestion would be a nice addition. On second thought, it 
makes sense the way you described it. I agree with Igor and Pierre's 
opinion that previous behaviour is more useful. Here are two videos that 
show the differences between old and new behaviour.


Old: https://streamable.com/0nxukf

New: https://streamable.com/xjaggs

Sam


Am 01.07.20 um 22:37 schrieb Phyllis Smith:
Igor,  (I was hoping the problem had to do with disarmed tracks.)  I 
can not convince GG that it should not be changed back.
Here is GG's logic looking at your 1st 3 lines in YouTube moving 
tracks example:


Disarmed    Credits Track 1
Disarmed    Intro Track 2
Armed   VFX_Text Track 3

OK, you use "Move *Up*":
Moving VFX_Text          up by 1 track means it should go from Track 3 
minus 1 = Track 2 (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
Moving Intro up by 1 track means it should go from Track 2 
minus 1 = Track 1 (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
So now Credits       has only 1 way to go up and that is all the 
way to the bottom
/This is the only consistent logic.  Previously once you got to the 
top you "swapped" the 2 tracks -- that is not a "move up"./

//
Another example going further down in your video:
Disarmed VFX Arrow Track #5  "move up" goes to Track #6 
???  -- makes more logic sense to go to Track 5 - 1 = Track 4

(this looks like "move down", not up)

Disarmed VFX AnimLine Track #7   "move up" goes to Track 
#9 ??? -- makes more logic sense to got to Track 7 - 1 = Track 6




On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Igor BEGHETTO > wrote:


It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't
depends
by group of audio tracks.
MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous
release) with
Armed tracks.
No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is
based
on the armed tracks.
So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its
two
(or more) audio tracks,
even though not close.

If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with
Cin_20200630, please?

=== CASE_1 ===
State t=0
-V3 (disarmed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)

State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
  Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)      | -V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)      | -A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)      | -A2 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)



=== Case_2 ===
State t=0
-V3 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)

State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
  Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)      | -V3 (armed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)

State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
  Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)      | -V3 (armed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)


Thanks!
IgorBeg

PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

Igor,  (I was hoping the problem had to do with disarmed tracks.)  I can
not convince GG that it should not be changed back.
Here is GG's logic looking at your 1st 3 lines in YouTube moving tracks
example:

DisarmedCreditsTrack 1
DisarmedIntro  Track 2
Armed   VFX_TextTrack 3

OK, you use "Move *Up*":
Moving VFX_Text  up by 1 track means it should go from Track 3
minus 1 = Track 2  (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
Moving Intro up by 1 track means it should go from Track 2
minus 1 = Track 1   (up = minus 1 / down means +1)
So now Credits   has only 1 way to go up and that is all the way to
the bottom
*This is the only consistent logic.  Previously once you got to the top you
"swapped" the 2 tracks -- that is not a "move up".*

Another example going further down in your video:
Disarmed VFX ArrowTrack #5  "move up" goes to Track #6
???  -- makes more logic sense to go to Track 5 - 1 = Track 4
(this looks like "move
down", not up)

Disarmed VFX AnimLine Track #7   "move up" goes to Track #9
??? -- makes more logic sense to got to Track 7 - 1 = Track 6



On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't depends
> by group of audio tracks.
> MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous release) with
> Armed tracks.
> No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is based
> on the armed tracks.
> So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its two
> (or more) audio tracks,
> even though not close.
>
> If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with
> Cin_20200630, please?
>
> === CASE_1 ===
> State t=0
> -V3 (disarmed)
> -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (armed)
> -A1 (armed)
> -A2 (armed)
>
> State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (armed)  | -V1 (armed)
> -A1 (armed)  | -A1 (armed)
> -A2 (armed)  | -A2 (armed)
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)
>
>
>
> === Case_2 ===
> State t=0
> -V3 (armed)
> -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (disarmed)
> -A1 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)
>
> State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
> -V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
>
> State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
> -V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
>
>
> Thanks!
> IgorBeg
>
> PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Pierre autourduglobe]

Phyllis, I understand what Igor describes; "move up" or "move down" has 
always meant, taking one (or more) track(s) and moving it (them) up (or 
down) above (or below) the tracks on the upper (or lower) levels. It's a 
bit like taking the elevator to move up or down a floor. Even if the 
selected track is now at the top, the "floor" (track) that was there 
before should never be sent back to the basement.


Pierre


Le 20-07-01 à 16 h 01, Phyllis Smith a écrit :

Igor,
I am using your youtube demo to see the difference.  GG wants a very 
small session file to easily demo what you think is wrong.  To me it 
seems like when you reach the top track, it makes sense to move it "up" 
to the bottom -- exchanging  or flipping 2 tracks is not what "move up" 
means.


On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Igor BEGHETTO > wrote:


It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't
depends
by group of audio tracks.
MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous release)
with
Armed tracks.
No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is based
on the armed tracks.
So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its two
(or more) audio tracks,
even though not close.

If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with
Cin_20200630, please?

=== CASE_1 ===
State t=0
-V3 (disarmed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)

State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
   Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)      | -V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)      | -A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)      | -A2 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)



=== Case_2 ===
State t=0
-V3 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)

State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
   Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)      | -V3 (armed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)

State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
   Cin_20200531    | Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)      | -V3 (armed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)


Thanks!
IgorBeg

PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

Igor,
I am using your youtube demo to see the difference.  GG wants a very small
session file to easily demo what you think is wrong.  To me it seems like
when you reach the top track, it makes sense to move it "up" to the bottom
-- exchanging  or flipping 2 tracks is not what "move up" means.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:43 PM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't depends
> by group of audio tracks.
> MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous release) with
> Armed tracks.
> No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is based
> on the armed tracks.
> So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its two
> (or more) audio tracks,
> even though not close.
>
> If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with
> Cin_20200630, please?
>
> === CASE_1 ===
> State t=0
> -V3 (disarmed)
> -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (armed)
> -A1 (armed)
> -A2 (armed)
>
> State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (armed)  | -V1 (armed)
> -A1 (armed)  | -A1 (armed)
> -A2 (armed)  | -A2 (armed)
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)
>
>
>
> === Case_2 ===
> State t=0
> -V3 (armed)
> -V2 (disarmed)
> -V1 (disarmed)
> -A1 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)
>
> State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
> -V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
>
> State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
>   Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
> -+--
> -V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
> -V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
> -V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
> -A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
> -A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
>
>
> Thanks!
> IgorBeg
>
> PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
> --
> Cin mailing list
> Cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org
> https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
>
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Igor BEGHETTO]

It doesn't matter in which Gang mode you are. For me, it doesn't depends 
by group of audio tracks.
MoveUp and MoveDown work (I should say, worked in previous release) with 
Armed tracks.
No new shortcuts are needed because the movement of the tracks is based 
on the armed tracks.
So you can move whatever you want including a video track with its two 
(or more) audio tracks,

even though not close.

If you have a few of time, could you compare Cin_20200531 with 
Cin_20200630, please?


=== CASE_1 ===
State t=0
-V3 (disarmed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)

State t=1 after Shift+UpArrow
 Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
-+--
-V3 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (armed)  | -V1 (armed)
-A1 (armed)  | -A1 (armed)
-A2 (armed)  | -A2 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)   | -V3 (disarmed)



=== Case_2 ===
State t=0
-V3 (armed)
-V2 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)

State t=1 after Shift+DownArrow
 Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)

State t=2 after Shift+DownArrow
 Cin_20200531| Cin_20200630
-+--
-V2 (disarmed)   | -A1 (disarmed)
-V1 (disarmed)   | -A2 (disarmed)
-V3 (armed)  | -V3 (armed)
-A1 (disarmed)   | -V2 (disarmed)
-A2 (disarmed)   | -V1 (disarmed)


Thanks!
IgorBeg

PS: I don't know if a new, or more, screencast can help.
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

Well for some reason we have been unable to get it to fail, even with
Igor's suggestion of disarmed tracks.  I will study his demo video and try
that next.  This is very perplexing of why neither gg or I can see a
problem -- even when loading old project files.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:22 AM Sam  wrote:

> I like the new feature, but in a modified way. It would be very good if
> both possibilities still existed. So that I can move a track
> individually, like Igor and Pierre said, but also a video track with the
> corresponding audio tracks, but not like in a wheel. It would have the
> advantage that users like Igor or Pierre would have their old desired
> handling and people like me who like to move the audio tracks along with
> it.
>
> Maybe you could do the following:
> SHIFT + CTRL + arrow keys represent the new feature
> SHIFT + arrow keys represent the old behaviour
>
> Sam
>
>
> Am 01.07.20 um 16:13 schrieb Pierre autourduglobe:
> > Yes there is a problem; it is impossible to move a sound track
> > individually. It always moves as a group of sound tracks even in "Gang
> > None" mode.
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> >
> > Le 20-07-01 à 03 h 02, Igor BEGHETTO a écrit :
> >>> 2. *IMPORTANT - Changed Behavior*:
> >>> A minor change to “move up” and “move down” tracks was
> >>> implemented to correct what was an exchange on the top track or
> >>> bottom track instead of a move.
> >> What???
> >> I didn't understand. Are You saying that the new behaviour to
> >> rearrange the tracks by Menu
> >> - Tracks-> MoveTracksUp (Shift+Up)
> >> - Tracks-> MoveTracksDown (Shift+Down)
> >> and its shortcuts is right now?
> >>
> >> I really hope is it a bug (see MantisBT #469) because for me it has
> >> no sense the new behaviour.
> >> Now,  that behaviour turn the tracks as in a wheel. And It is wrong
> >> because you can not rearrange the tracks exactly as you want. It has
> >> no sense.
> >> The right way was what you can see in the video
> >> http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder
> >> and you can test with the Cin_20200531 release.
> >>
> >> Until the Cin_20200531 release it worked perfectly.
> >> Cinelerra-HV and Cinelerra-CV work as before in Cinelerra-gg.
> >>
> >> By Cinelerra-CV manual:
> >> 7.6 Manipulating tracks. Move tracks up and Move tracks down shift
> >> all the armed tracks up or down the stack.
> >>
> >> I really hope You (developers) and Users like Sam, Pierre,
> >> Andrea_paz, Andrew, MatN, AVLinux, RafaMar, and so on, think like me.
> >> I can not work with the last (wrong) behaviour of Cinelerra-gg_20200630.
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> IgorBeg
> >>
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Sam]

I like the new feature, but in a modified way. It would be very good if 
both possibilities still existed. So that I can move a track 
individually, like Igor and Pierre said, but also a video track with the 
corresponding audio tracks, but not like in a wheel. It would have the 
advantage that users like Igor or Pierre would have their old desired 
handling and people like me who like to move the audio tracks along with 
it.


Maybe you could do the following:
SHIFT + CTRL + arrow keys represent the new feature
SHIFT + arrow keys represent the old behaviour

Sam


Am 01.07.20 um 16:13 schrieb Pierre autourduglobe:
Yes there is a problem; it is impossible to move a sound track 
individually. It always moves as a group of sound tracks even in "Gang 
None" mode.


Pierre


Le 20-07-01 à 03 h 02, Igor BEGHETTO a écrit :

2. *IMPORTANT - Changed Behavior*:
    A minor change to “move up” and “move down” tracks was 
implemented to correct what was an exchange on the top track or 
bottom track instead of a move.

What???
I didn't understand. Are You saying that the new behaviour to 
rearrange the tracks by Menu

- Tracks-> MoveTracksUp (Shift+Up)
- Tracks-> MoveTracksDown (Shift+Down)
and its shortcuts is right now?

I really hope is it a bug (see MantisBT #469) because for me it has 
no sense the new behaviour.
Now,  that behaviour turn the tracks as in a wheel. And It is wrong 
because you can not rearrange the tracks exactly as you want. It has 
no sense.
The right way was what you can see in the video 
http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder

and you can test with the Cin_20200531 release.

Until the Cin_20200531 release it worked perfectly.
Cinelerra-HV and Cinelerra-CV work as before in Cinelerra-gg.

By Cinelerra-CV manual:
7.6 Manipulating tracks. Move tracks up and Move tracks down shift 
all the armed tracks up or down the stack.


I really hope You (developers) and Users like Sam, Pierre, 
Andrea_paz, Andrew, MatN, AVLinux, RafaMar, and so on, think like me.

I can not work with the last (wrong) behaviour of Cinelerra-gg_20200630.
Thanks!

IgorBeg


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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Pierre autourduglobe]

Yes there is a problem; it is impossible to move a sound track 
individually. It always moves as a group of sound tracks even in "Gang 
None" mode.


Pierre


Le 20-07-01 à 03 h 02, Igor BEGHETTO a écrit :

2. *IMPORTANT - Changed Behavior*:
    A minor change to “move up” and “move down” tracks was implemented 
to correct what was an exchange on the top track or bottom track 
instead of a move.

What???
I didn't understand. Are You saying that the new behaviour to rearrange 
the tracks by Menu

- Tracks-> MoveTracksUp (Shift+Up)
- Tracks-> MoveTracksDown (Shift+Down)
and its shortcuts is right now?

I really hope is it a bug (see MantisBT #469) because for me it has no 
sense the new behaviour.
Now,  that behaviour turn the tracks as in a wheel. And It is wrong 
because you can not rearrange the tracks exactly as you want. It has no 
sense.
The right way was what you can see in the video 
http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder

and you can test with the Cin_20200531 release.

Until the Cin_20200531 release it worked perfectly.
Cinelerra-HV and Cinelerra-CV work as before in Cinelerra-gg.

By Cinelerra-CV manual:
7.6 Manipulating tracks. Move tracks up and Move tracks down shift all 
the armed tracks up or down the stack.


I really hope You (developers) and Users like Sam, Pierre, Andrea_paz, 
Andrew, MatN, AVLinux, RafaMar, and so on, think like me.

I can not work with the last (wrong) behaviour of Cinelerra-gg_20200630.
Thanks!

IgorBeg


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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Phyllis Smith]

IgorBeg
There is "supposed" to be only 1 change which was to NOT exchange the first
and last track when executing "move up" or "move down".  I made a note in
BT #469 and am trying to understand what the underlying issue is.  More
later.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:02 AM Igor BEGHETTO  wrote:

> 2. *IMPORTANT - Changed Behavior*:
> A minor change to “move up” and “move down” tracks was implemented to
> correct what was an exchange on the top track or bottom track instead of a
> move.
>
> What???
> I didn't understand. Are You saying that the new behaviour to rearrange
> the tracks by Menu
> - Tracks-> MoveTracksUp (Shift+Up)
> - Tracks-> MoveTracksDown (Shift+Down)
> and its shortcuts is right now?
>
> I really hope is it a bug (see MantisBT #469) because for me it has no
> sense the new behaviour.
> Now,  that behaviour turn the tracks as in a wheel. And It is wrong
> because you can not rearrange the tracks exactly as you want. It has no
> sense.
> The right way was what you can see in the video
> http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder
> and you can test with the Cin_20200531 release.
>
> Until the Cin_20200531 release it worked perfectly.
> Cinelerra-HV and Cinelerra-CV work as before in Cinelerra-gg.
>
> By Cinelerra-CV manual:
> 7.6 Manipulating tracks. Move tracks up and Move tracks down shift all the
> armed tracks up or down the stack.
>
> I really hope You (developers) and Users like Sam, Pierre, Andrea_paz,
> Andrew, MatN, AVLinux, RafaMar, and so on, think like me.
> I can not work with the last (wrong) behaviour of Cinelerra-gg_20200630.
> Thanks!
>
> IgorBeg
> --
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Re: [Cin] New monthly pkgs and tars available on the website

[Igor BEGHETTO]

2. *IMPORTANT - Changed Behavior*:
A minor change to “move up” and “move down” tracks was implemented 
to correct what was an exchange on the top track or bottom track 
instead of a move.

What???
I didn't understand. Are You saying that the new behaviour to rearrange 
the tracks by Menu

- Tracks-> MoveTracksUp (Shift+Up)
- Tracks-> MoveTracksDown (Shift+Down)
and its shortcuts is right now?

I really hope is it a bug (see MantisBT #469) because for me it has no 
sense the new behaviour.
Now,  that behaviour turn the tracks as in a wheel. And It is wrong 
because you can not rearrange the tracks exactly as you want. It has no 
sense.
The right way was what you can see in the video 
http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder

and you can test with the Cin_20200531 release.

Until the Cin_20200531 release it worked perfectly.
Cinelerra-HV and Cinelerra-CV work as before in Cinelerra-gg.

By Cinelerra-CV manual:
7.6 Manipulating tracks. Move tracks up and Move tracks down shift all 
the armed tracks up or down the stack.


I really hope You (developers) and Users like Sam, Pierre, Andrea_paz, 
Andrew, MatN, AVLinux, RafaMar, and so on, think like me.

I can not work with the last (wrong) behaviour of Cinelerra-gg_20200630.
Thanks!

IgorBeg
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