[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-18 Thread Martyn Hodgson


   Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian
   church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC).
   This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was indeed
   originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter
   reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut (Saxony)
   in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary hub.
   Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late 17thC,
   then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd probably
   have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian
   locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless the
   mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that is
   through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been known
   in Saxony.

   What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that
   melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which is, of
   course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers. And
   here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC
   sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger
   plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum.

   Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the Moravian
   church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about this?
   I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link.

   Martyn
   )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM

   Dear folks,
   Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the
   Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship.  There
   are references to people playing citterns in various other settings,
   such as funerals or sickrooms.  And there are paintings of what appear
   to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and
   run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of
   Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a
   real Moravian!)
   By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not
   necessarily the country.  The modern Moravian Church developed in
   Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all
   over the world.  The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the
   1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think
   they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were
   particularly important.
   The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page,
   I think.
   And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in
   Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs).
   It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength.
   andy r
   On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

   Dear Andrew and Stuart,
   Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the
 instrument
   intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho'
 most
   mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar
 intervals
   (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there
 are a
   number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one
 such.
   And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and
 heartland of
   the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of
 surviving
   mandora tablatures in monasteries there.
   Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary
 mandora
   tablatures but I'm not particularly  knowledgable about the
 cittern of
   the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common
 instrument? -
   more so than the popular mandora?
   Martyn
   --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig
 [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
   wrote:
 From: Andrew Hartig [3]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
 Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
 To: [4]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM

I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for
 performance.
I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I
believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction
   of
the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need
   to
seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a
photograph as part of a book).
Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all
   of
those who have taken an interest in this music

[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-18 Thread Andrew Rutherford
   Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a
   recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and
   Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker.  You can
   find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page.
   By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar.  I
   think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when
   he moved to England...   andy r

   On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

   Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian
   church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC).
   This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was
 indeed
   originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter
   reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut
 (Saxony)
   in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary
 hub.
   Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late
 17thC,
   then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd
 probably
   have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian
   locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless
 the
   mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that
 is
   through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been
 known
   in Saxony.
   What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that
   melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which
 is, of
   course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers.
 And
   here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC
   sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger
   plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum.
   Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the
 Moravian
   church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about
 this?
   I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link.
   Martyn

 )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford [2]lutewo...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   From: Andrew Rutherford [3]lutewo...@gmail.com

   Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
   To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

 Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM

 Dear folks,
 Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the
 Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship.
   There
 are references to people playing citterns in various other settings,
 such as funerals or sickrooms.  And there are paintings of what
   appear
 to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and
 run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands
   of
 Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a
 real Moravian!)
 By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not
 necessarily the country.  The modern Moravian Church developed in
 Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all
 over the world.  The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the
 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I
   think
 they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were
 particularly important.
 The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first
   page,
 I think.
 And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in
 Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs).
 It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength.
 andy r
 On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson

 [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 Dear Andrew and Stuart,
 Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the
   instrument
 intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho'
   most
 mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar
   intervals
 (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there
   are a
 number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one
   such.
 And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and
   heartland of
 the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of
   surviving
 mandora tablatures in monasteries there.
 Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary
   mandora
 tablatures but I'm not particularly  knowledgable about the
   cittern of
 the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common
   instrument? -
 more so than the popular mandora?
 Martyn
 --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig

[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-17 Thread Martyn Hodgson


   Dear Andrew and Stuart,

   Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument
   intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most
   mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals
   (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a
   number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such.
   And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of
   the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving
   mandora tablatures in monasteries there.

   Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora
   tablatures but I'm not particularly  knowledgable about the cittern of
   the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? -
   more so than the popular mandora?

   Martyn
   --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
   wrote:

 From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
 Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
 To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM

  I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for
   performance.
  I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I
  believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of
  the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to
  seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a
  photograph as part of a book).
  Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of
  those who have taken an interest in this music!
  Andrew
  At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote:
Hello Stuart,
That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years
old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights.
I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem.
Damien
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote:
Andrew Hartig wrote:
Dear all,
Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book
(BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for
   6-course
cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some
photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the
   Moravian
Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the
book are now available for public download from my web site.
I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You
   can
get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern
Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll
   down
to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also
find something else of interest.
Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people
   of
the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to
make this possible!
-Andrew
Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew.  There's
   lots
to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps
   an
ornament.  And these settings include the tune, as sung?
The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with
voice leading etc.  No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick
recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe
tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning
isn't fully chordal.
[2][5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just
   read
The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published
without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!)
And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather
glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!):
[3][6]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted)
I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the
English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't
   seen
his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers
but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for
what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in
Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar'
fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in
'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name
correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the
Bunsold tablature and now this.
Stuart

[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-17 Thread Mjos Larson
In the Storm Ms. you will see the 11 or || (two vertical strokes)  
in some of the pieces. The #2 Menuet, for example, uses that symbol  
in the second section.


-- R


On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:


Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Dear Andrew and Stuart,

   Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the  
instrument
   intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern.  
Altho' most
   mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar  
intervals
   (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses)  
there are a
   number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one  
such.
   And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and  
heartland of
   the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of  
surviving

   mandora tablatures in monasteries there.

   Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary  
mandora
   tablatures but I'm not particularly  knowledgable about the  
cittern of
   the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common  
instrument? -

   more so than the popular mandora?

   Martyn



I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this  
Moravian tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the  
tablature style of the time and place - whatever the instrument?
Does mandora tablature use the little ornament thing that looks  
like a tiny '11'?


I think evidence for the popularity of the cittern in central  
Europe is sparse. Some instruments (including arch-citterns)  
survive and a few tablatures. The  'waldzithern' in Germany and  
Switzerland didn't take off until after 1800.


I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the  
cittern. Andrew will remind us. But the tuning (or the intervals)  
for the Moravian tablature is for a known tuning for the  
cithrinchen/bell cittern.


It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of  
Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s. And there  
is a facsimile of one page of the  tablature on page 6.


*http://tinyurl.com/mbf5ex




*
   --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig  
cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com

   wrote:

 From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
 Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
 To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM

  I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for
   performance.
  I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as  
music. I
  believe the permission should be sought only for the  
reproduction of
  the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would  
need to

  seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a
  photograph as part of a book).
  Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to  
all of

  those who have taken an interest in this music!
  Andrew
  At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote:
Hello Stuart,
That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost  
300 years
old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more  
rights.

I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem.
Damien
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote:
Andrew Hartig wrote:
Dear all,
Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a  
manuscript book

(BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for
   6-course
cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to  
take some

photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the
   Moravian
Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs  
of the

book are now available for public download from my web site.
I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25  
MB). You

   can
get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance  
Cittern
Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/  
(scroll

   down
to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you  
may also

find something else of interest.
Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine  
people

   of
the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working  
together to

make this possible!
-Andrew
Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew.   
There's

   lots
to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is  
perhaps

   an
ornament.  And these settings include the tune, as sung?
The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full,  
with
voice leading etc.  No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's  
a quick

[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-17 Thread Frank Nordberg

Stuart Walsh wrote:

 I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this Moravian
 tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the tablature
 style of the time and place - whatever the instrument?

Probably. I can't see any reason why tablature notation style would 
differ between different instruments really.


 I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the
 cittern. Andrew will remind us.

I'm neither Andrew nor Andrew but I have kept the post where Andrew R. 
first brught up the Moravian ms.


He said:
 There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian
 Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern.

In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument 
the music was itnended for.


But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at 
least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. 
There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning.


 But the tuning (or the intervals) for the Moravian tablature is for
 a known tuning for the cithrinchen/bell cittern.

 It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of
 Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s.

As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian 
ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 
and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold 
Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book 
Gr√ľndlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the 
Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an 
other instrument than a cittern.


So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of 
course, we still don't have absolute proof.



Frank Nordberg
http://www.musicaviva.com
http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-17 Thread Stuart Walsh

Frank Nordberg wrote:

I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms.

He said:
 There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian
 Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern.

In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument 
the music was itnended for.


But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at 
least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. 
There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning.


I'm not joined up to this ning thing - and so I'm in the position of 
anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the 
information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, 
presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Is it tiny - or large - like 
Bellman's? And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are 
more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century?




As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian 
ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 
40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold 
Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book 
Gr√ľndlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the 
Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for 
an other instrument than a cittern.


That's a very interesting summary. I think James Tyler (or Donald Gill?) 
has somewhere mentioned these Hamburger cithrinchen MSS. And described 
the music as simple, single line, plectrum stuff? Definitely not writing 
in parts, like the Moravian chorales.


(The bell cittern was, I think, popular in Britain in the 17th century. 
Didn't Talbot write about it?)


The Moravian tablatures don't indicate pitch so I don't know how Andrew 
has concluded that the tuning is GCEgbe.


So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of 
course, we still don't have absolute proof.
'Absolute proof' sounds  just a  bit too tricky, but reasonable 
conjecture might be more attainable.  The evidence, then, is the tuning 
- and that only from two old Hamburger cithrinchen MSS (for a small 
instrument, perhaps played in a rather different way). And some 
iconography that only might be relevant.So maybe the tablature really is 
for the more popular mandora. But then again there's the Bunsold MS of 
chorales for cittern - but in a chordal tuning not the  'maj7 'tuning.


Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point.


Curious.


Stuart




Frank Nordberg




http://www.musicaviva.com
http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store



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[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-17 Thread Frank Nordberg

Stuart Walsh wrote:

 I'm not joined up to this ning thing

I can undrstand that. I too prefer the maillist. ;-)

 - and so I'm in the position of
 anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the
 information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and,
 presumably in the painting) a bell cittern?

Woops! Seems the photos aren't there anymore. At least I can't find 'em.

The instrument in the painting was a bell cittern and I'm pretty sure 
the one preserved in the Moravian museum was too.


 Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's?

Ah, that reminds me! I never got the dimensions of Bellman's cittern 
from the Stockholm museum. Perhaps I should contact them again. (The 
portrait of Bellman turnsout to be worthless in this respect. It was 
quite common for painters at that time to scale the size of objects up 
or down to fit the composition of the painting so the fact that it looks 
so huge in the picture doesn't really mean anything.)


 And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are
 more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century?

I got the three German sources I listed from studia-instrumentorum.de 
and I can only quote what dr. Michel says at that site. The oldest of 
the two manuscripts are dated 1664, the other c. 1700 while 
Vockerodt's reference is - as mentioned - 1718. So we're talking late 
17th and early 18th century here. Only Vockerodt, the latest of the 
three sources, mentions open chord tunings as an alternative.


 'Absolute proof' sounds  just a  bit too tricky,

You're right. The Storm ms. and the German sources all clearly state 
they're about citterns but apparently the Moravian ms. is not that 
helpful. The only way to determine beyond any doubt what instrument the 
music was intended for, would be to connect it historically to one 
specific instrument and that's easier said than done.


 So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora.

That's still a possibility. However, the evidence connecting it to the 
cittern may be strong or weak, but at the moment it's definitely far 
stronger than any connection we have to the mandora.


 Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point.

That's true. But perhaps the North Gernab maj7 tuning was developed 
especially to make multipart playing easier?


Frank



To get on or off this list see list information at
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[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]

2009-08-16 Thread Andrew Hartig
   I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance.
   I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I
   believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of
   the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to
   seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a
   photograph as part of a book).
   Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of
   those who have taken an interest in this music!
   Andrew
   At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote:

 Hello Stuart,
 That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years
 old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights.
 I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem.
 Damien
 - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
 s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 To: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
 Cc: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM
 Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch

 Stuart Walsh wrote:

 Andrew Hartig wrote:

 Dear all,
 Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book
 (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course
 cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some
 photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian
 Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the
 book are now available for public download from my web site.
 I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can
 get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern
 Site, [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down
 to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also
 find something else of interest.
 Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of
 the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to
 make this possible!
 -Andrew

 Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew.  There's lots
 to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an
 ornament.  And these settings include the tune, as sung?
 The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with
 voice leading etc.  No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick
 recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe
 tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning
 isn't fully chordal.
 [2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read
 The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published
 without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!)
 And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather
 glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!):
 [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted)
 I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the
 English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen
 his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers
 but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for
 what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in
 Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar'
 fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in
 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name
 correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the
 Bunsold tablature and now this.
 Stuart
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References

   1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
   2. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
   3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.avg.com/