Re: Strapped to the JVM?
On Saturday 07 February 2009 00:19:44 mikel wrote: Can you imagine a Clojure implementation on a different underlying runtime? Which ones might possibly be suitable? Can you imagine a Clojure on top of, say the CLR? Or on top of a Common Lisp? Or on GHC or perhaps the LLVM? IMHO the world would benefit enormously from a well implemented open source common language run-time (not necessarily compatible with Microsoft's). However, that is a very tall order and nobody has come close to delivering on it yet. The main sticking point is the creation of a concurrent garbage collector, particularly now that LLVM is on the scene. Mono has a variety of serious problems in this context so the JVM is currently the best thing on offer. If the JVM really does get genuine tail call elimination then it will be by far the best option. Moreover, the effort required to build such a common language run-time would dwarf the effort required to port Clojure to it. -- Dr Jon Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd. http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?e --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Strapped to the JVM?
On 07.02.2009, at 01:19, mikel wrote: What happens to Clojure if something bad happens to the JVM? It's not that I think the JVM is going away any time soon. Sure, Sun looks kind of shaky right now, but there are alternative sources of JVMs. Probably the JVM can survive even if Sun doesn't. At the current state, Clojure itself is probably way more at risk of disappearing than the JVM. There are several JVM implementations, including Open Source ones. Can you imagine a Clojure implementation on a different underlying runtime? Which ones might possibly be suitable? The language itself could certainly be implemented on a different VM, or as a native code compiler. It would just be a lot of work. However, how many Clojure projects out there depend on some Java library? There might be no practical interest in Clojure without the JVM. Can you imagine a Clojure on top of, say the CLR? Or on top of a Common Lisp? Or on GHC or perhaps the LLVM? There is a JVM on top of the LLVM already, search for vmkit for the details. Konrad. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Strapped to the JVM?
I am. but that was also an attempt to (possibly) answer a question with a question. On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Raoul Duke rao...@gmail.com wrote: hi, On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:24 PM, e evier...@gmail.com wrote: What;s Ralph all about? You've certainly peaked my interest. google it up, that's what i immediately started doing of course :-) http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:R3Jw4HMdGIwJ:coding.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2005-09/msg00382.pdf+ralph+lisp+dylanhl=enct=clnkcd=3gl=usclient=firefox-a --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Strapped to the JVM?
We'd just have to write our own JVM of course. ;) On Feb 6, 6:19 pm, mikel mev...@mac.com wrote: What happens to Clojure if something bad happens to the JVM? It's not that I think the JVM is going away any time soon. Sure, Sun looks kind of shaky right now, but there are alternative sources of JVMs. Probably the JVM can survive even if Sun doesn't. Probably. But I had a favorite programming language once before. It was a Lisp called Ralph. Eventually the company that developed it abandoned it, and it evolved into a different language, called Dylan, that I don't like anywhere near as much. That was a bad experience, and I don't care to repeat it. It was well over a decade before Clojure came along, and until it did, there was no programming language that I liked nearly as much as Ralph. I had to make do in the interim with Common Lisp, Ocaml, and Haskell, languages that I like a lot, but not as much as I liked Ralph. So, I'm probably just being paranoid, but indulge me for a moment: what happens to Clojure if something bad happens to the JVM? If the JVM went away or turned into something ugly for some reason, how would the Clojure community respond? By going extinct? By mutating into something much less appealing, as happened with Ralph and Dylan? Or by finding some way to preserve the particular character of Clojure and its community? What is the way to preserve that particular character? Can you imagine a Clojure implementation on a different underlying runtime? Which ones might possibly be suitable? Can you imagine a Clojure on top of, say the CLR? Or on top of a Common Lisp? Or on GHC or perhaps the LLVM? Merely imagining these alternatives goes some way toward ameliorating my senile paranoia. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
