Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

Mathew and Stephen,

>>>On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull shows signs 
>>>of cracking.  I promptly had a nautical engineer look at.  He was an intern 
>>>or apprentice at C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he concluded 
>>>that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point.  The weight 
>>>of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has fill 
>>>inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks.  He concluded it is 
>>>non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure.  That’s the kind of 
>>>problem I’m willing to keep an eye on.

  Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need expert help.  This 
is not something to mess around with.  Good luck!

   Matt
   C 42 Custom
<<<<<<<<<<<

When we first bought Calypso (1998) we also discovered micro fractures just 
forward of the keel/mast step area.  The micro fractures were allowing some sea 
water seepage which is what caught our attention. As the boat was already in 
the yard with the mast out being painted it was relatively easy to fire up the 
grinders and explore the laminate in that area, both inside and outside the 
hull.

What we discovered was the original (1970) polyester “orange bog” that 
Bruckmann’s used to fill the hull to keel fairing feature had failed turning 
into a crumbly mass of bog bits and offering no reinforcement in that area.  
Also, there was a lack of additional support from bulkheads etc creating a 
“bend here” point just forward of the keel/mast step.  With an aggressively 
raced boat that likely had max backstay tension applied every race since 1971 
the micro fractures allowed water in that then went through freeze/thaw cycles 
when the 43 was in the east coast and great lakes regions.

We repaired the micro fractures with extra layers of epoxy and glass cloth 
inside and out but especially inside, then used a much stronger epoxy filler in 
the remaining void forward of the keel, then glassed over that with lots of 
epoxy/cloth. We also performed some failed bulkhead repairs where the water 
seeping had wicked up the plywood (in 1998/1999).

Fast forward to 2014 and we are beginning the now 8 year long Calypso 
restoration project.  We had also purchased all the C build drawings the 
Maritime Museum could identify as related to the 70’s era 43s. Fortunately this 
included several C 61 drawings.  Reading through the many pages I noticed the 
C 61 “Sorcery” had also experienced a certain amount of unexpected 
flexibility just forward of the keel/mast step.  The C Design Group 
determined extra reinforcement was needed and specified a SS “I” beam be 
fabricated and installed in “Sorcery”.  Further notes lead me to believe later 
61 and 43 hulls had this reinforcement included in the original builds.

As part of our 43 restoration project we fabricated 2 “I” beams from G10 that 
are aprox. 4” tall x 3” wide x 4’ long glassed in from next to the mast step 
forward to near where the babystay attaches to the hull. We also rebuilt all 
the bulkheads in the area as they provide significant fore/aft stiffness.  This 
is the area where rig forces are doing their best to bend the hull into a 
banana shape every time the boat is sailed hard.

Stephen, if you pursue DIY repairs consider using epoxy vs polyester resins.  
My experience indicates epoxy has a superior secondary bond strength.  If you 
decide to fabricate extra support members to spread the keel loads out over 
more structure, G10, while hard on cutting tools makes a structure that is 
impervious to rot and likely stronger than most materials available to DIY boat 
repair enthusiasts.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C 43
Seattle/Port Ludlow


Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

____
From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:29:54 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?


Stephen:



My first boat was a Ranger 26 that had been modified (the cast 
iron keel was replaced with an IOR-style lead keel).  I discovered this after I 
bought the boat -- for a song, mind you, as it had been abandoned.  We tackled 
a variety of projects, including rebedding the keel bolts.  The bolt holes were 
visibly cracked and leaking a bit.  I can say with 100% certainty that the keel 
is now adequately supported, and the bolt holes will never leak again.  Based 
on my experience with the Ranger, my view is that nearly anything can be 
repaired on a fiberglass boat.  Given what you described, you can probably 
glass some stiffeners in place.



My concerns would be: 1) what caused the problem; and 2) fixing 
it correctly.  If you race the boat, you may also need to deal with 
weight/modification issues.  As to my first concern, a solid glass hull flexing 

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Trim it before you send it!
A buddy of mine had nearly the same issue with a Tartan 33.  It had floors
(athwartships reinforcements running across the bilge).  It still flexed
and had the hull/keel joint crack nearly every haul out.

Apparently Tim Jackett was the designer of the Tartan 33.  The boat owner
worked with Tim on a fix.  The fix was so expensive the boat owner let a
salvage auction site sell it and moved on to a different boat.

I suspect one could fix it with several layers of epoxy glass but I think
it's on the edge of the DIY envelope.  Not so much from the glassing
technique aspect but for the design aspect.  How much glass?  How far up
the bilge shoulder do you glass it?  Do you put all the layers in the
bilge/inside of the hull or do you put some on the outside as well?

Those are questions I'd give some serious thought.  Personally, if it was
my boat, I'd slap a bunch of epoxy glass on it but then I've done glass
work for years (including retabbing the floors in the above mentioned
Tartan).
--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 19:31 Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>>
>> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex
>> with a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex
>> wasn't between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was
>> the entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
>> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
>> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
>> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
>> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
>> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
>> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
>> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>>
>> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
>> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
>> finding.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Stephen
>>
>>

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Stephen:

 

My first boat was a Ranger 26 that had been modified (the cast 
iron keel was replaced with an IOR-style lead keel).  I discovered this after I 
bought the boat -- for a song, mind you, as it had been abandoned.  We tackled 
a variety of projects, including rebedding the keel bolts.  The bolt holes were 
visibly cracked and leaking a bit.  I can say with 100% certainty that the keel 
is now adequately supported, and the bolt holes will never leak again.  Based 
on my experience with the Ranger, my view is that nearly anything can be 
repaired on a fiberglass boat.  Given what you described, you can probably 
glass some stiffeners in place.

 

My concerns would be: 1) what caused the problem; and 2) fixing 
it correctly.  If you race the boat, you may also need to deal with 
weight/modification issues.  As to my first concern, a solid glass hull flexing 
enough to discern keel movement is obviously not normal.  Perhaps the boat ran 
hard aground?  As to my second concern, I suggest having a nautical engineer 
inspect the problem and recommend the repair.  I would not just go sailing and 
keep an eye on it.  The keel on the Cal 33 I grew up on developed a problem we 
were “keeping an eye on,” and the boat nearly sunk in the middle of Lake Erie 
(50 degree water) with me and a few law school buddies on board.  Had she gone 
down, we would have perished – no life raft on board, and not enough time for a 
rescue in water that cold.  The repair was relatively straightforward, and the 
boat is still sailing today.  Remarkably, although Cal 33 owners were not 
warned, Lapworth had already designed the fix.  It was an easy repair that has 
lasted for nearly 40 years, but the potential consequences of a pre-repair 
failure were disastrous.

 

On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull 
shows signs of cracking.  I promptly had a nautical engineer look at.  He was 
an intern or apprentice at C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he 
concluded that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point.  The 
weight of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has 
fill inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks.  He concluded it 
is non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure.  That’s the kind of 
problem I’m willing to keep an eye on.

 

Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need 
expert help.  This is not something to mess around with.  Good luck!

 

Matt

C 42 Custom   

 

From: Stephen Kidd via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:31 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Stephen Kidd 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

Greetings, 

 

I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a while 
for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time to do a 
lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the list. As 
our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the bolts and 
checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went smoothly 
using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. Before 
tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with between 100 - 
150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the keel bolts to 
350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning or washers digging 
into the glass. 

 

We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of the 
bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear to move 
relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The hull/keel 
joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this step before 
dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have caught right 
away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel 
joint. 

 

Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good finding. 
We have seen cases where people have made significant and impressive structural 
repairs, many of which have been referenced here on the list, to increase 
rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge area for signs of 
cracking or separation, and we have not identified anything obvious (untrained 
eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were we to go that route. The marina 
manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not comfortable not knowing why the 
hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, several sailors at the marina 
suggested

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

That doesn't sound like anything that is supposed to happen. I would think
of somebody could flex it from the outside while someone is watching
inside, you should be able to see something. In any event, it seems like
something that might cause it to fall off at some point. I would think it
should be reinforced, or find out why that is happening. Maybe someone had
a hard grounding at some point.

Bill Coleman

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 19:31 Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
> the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
> the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
> went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
> socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
> with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
> torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
> bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.
>
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
> a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
> entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
> bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
> not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
> time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
> we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
> that's beyond our comfort zone.
>
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
> a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C
>
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
 Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
>
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> . Here are some
> observations:
>
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation
> when lifted from the stands.
>
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
>
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
>
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

You’re welcome!   It’s an easy way to record other people’s ideas and share. 
I took a google stroll in the 25-2 and can see it was introduced not long 
before before and it is likely built in a very similar way to windstar, meaning 
a solid hull, a ‘spider’ (shop made structural grid bonded to the hull) and the 
liner fastened to that with blobs of putty.  In Windstar’s case the liner is 
‘properly’ glassed to the hull only along the settee fronts, mostly running 
fore and aft, and outboard of the ends of the spider grid.  So it’s structural 
to that extent.If the 25 doesn’t have a spider it certainly has some kind 
of glassed-in transverse structure around the keel, in addition to the 
bulkheads at the forward ends of the settees.
I had a look at how the 25-2 is arranged  and I see that it has a deck stepped 
mast, bulkheads directly below that, and that the first keel bolt is aft of 
that area, with much of the keel support structure necessarily beneath the 
table.  I will assume that at least one of the keel bolts passes through the 
spider/ beam structure. 
At the risk of being Captain obvious now, It’s the hull skin itself and the 
transverse spider members fastened to it that stiffen the hull adjacent to the 
keel loading, so if something has failed, that’s it.  Though forward of the 
keel, The bulkheads do their part, and I would assume there is a transverse 
spider beam or at least built up glasswork/tabbing  along  the base of the 
bulkheads.  
Look really really closely at the tabbing and wood  along the bottom of the 
bulkheads below the mast, check failed tabbing, rot/wet wood, past repairs.
Clean it and shine a bright light, you are as cracks might be hard to see.  
Look at the spider-grid where it attaches to the hull and focus on the joints 
and especially corners and notches where the grid is glassed in and the keel 
stresses concentrate.  ( think about what might let go first in a really hard 
grounding)  Look for blobs of putty where the liner is attached and see if any 
are cracked and if chips fallen out- an indication of flexing.
Obviously if you see evidence of a prior repair, investigate.  
Good luck!
Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Stephen Kidd  wrote:
> 
> 
> Good idea, and it makes sense to check. I'm pretty certain nothing has been 
> tinkered with, given the consistent patina and materials throughout, but 
> we've had her all of 4 of her 42 years. 
> 
> The hull is indeed solid fiberglass with a cored deck. So at least it's not 
> the scariest of the scary. 
> 
> I've got to say thanks for the the Windstar blog! It's an incredible resource 
> and our go-to for getting a sense of how these boats fit together.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 8:45 PM Dave S  wrote:
>> Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat been 
>> modified in any way?   Any structure removed?
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
 
>>> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
>>> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
>>> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable 
>>> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well 
>>> intentioned bad advice.
>>> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
>>> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse 
>>> ‘floors’ (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed 
>>> cored hull.  This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
>>> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is 
>>> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it 
>>> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is 
>>> built.  
>>> 
>>> Dave 33-2 windstar 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
 
 Greetings, 
 
 I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a 
 while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us 
 time to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided 
 through the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we 
 tightened the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing 
 the bolts went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an 
 extra deep socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they 
 all budged with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were 
 able to torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication 
 of the bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass. 
 
 We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with 
 a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex 

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Stephen Kidd via CnC-List]

Good idea, and it makes sense to check. I'm pretty certain nothing has been
tinkered with, given the consistent patina and materials throughout, but
we've had her all of 4 of her 42 years.

The hull is indeed solid fiberglass with a cored deck. So at least it's not
the scariest of the scary.

I've got to say thanks for the the Windstar blog! It's an incredible
resource and our go-to for getting a sense of how these boats fit together.


On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 8:45 PM Dave S  wrote:

> Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat
> been modified in any way?   Any structure removed?
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
>
> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy
> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to
> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable
> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well
> intentioned bad advice.
> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty
> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse
> ‘floors’ (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed
> cored hull.  This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.
> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is
> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it
> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is
> built.
>
> Dave 33-2 windstar
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
> the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
> the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
> went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
> socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
> with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
> torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
> bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.
>
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
> a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
> entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
> bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
> not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
> time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
> we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
> that's beyond our comfort zone.
>
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
> a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C
>
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat been 
modified in any way?   Any structure removed?


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
> 
> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable 
> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well 
> intentioned bad advice.
> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse ‘floors’ 
> (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed cored hull.  
> This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is 
> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it 
> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is 
> built.  
> 
> Dave 33-2 windstar 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Greetings, 
>> 
>> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a 
>> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time 
>> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the 
>> list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the 
>> bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went 
>> smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. 
>> Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with 
>> between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the 
>> keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning 
>> or washers digging into the glass. 
>> 
>> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
>> moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
>> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
>> hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
>> manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of 
>> the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear 
>> to move relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The 
>> hull/keel joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this 
>> step before dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have 
>> caught right away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the 
>> hull/keel joint. 
>> 
>> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
>> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good 
>> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and 
>> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on 
>> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge 
>> area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified 
>> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were 
>> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not 
>> comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, 
>> several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and we 
>> should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is, that's 
>> beyond our comfort zone. 
>> 
>> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have a 
>> question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take 
>> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat 
>> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible 
>> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C 
>> 
>> Many thanks,
>> Stephen
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are 
>> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter 
>> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat 
>> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts. Here are some 
>> observations:
>> 
>> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation 
>> when lifted from the stands.
>> 
>> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 
>> 
>> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on 
>> internet searches.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill 

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable friend 
who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well intentioned bad 
advice.
HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse ‘floors’ 
(beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed cored hull.  
This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is built, 
but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it might be an 
involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is built.  

Dave 33-2 windstar 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings, 
> 
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a while 
> for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time to do a 
> lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the list. As 
> our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the bolts and 
> checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went smoothly 
> using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. Before 
> tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with between 100 
> - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the keel bolts 
> to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning or washers 
> digging into the glass. 
> 
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
> moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
> hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
> manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of the 
> bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear to 
> move relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The 
> hull/keel joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this 
> step before dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have 
> caught right away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the 
> hull/keel joint. 
> 
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good finding. 
> We have seen cases where people have made significant and impressive 
> structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on the list, to 
> increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge area for 
> signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified anything obvious 
> (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were we to go that 
> route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not comfortable 
> not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, several 
> sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and we should just 
> go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is, that's beyond our 
> comfort zone. 
> 
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have a 
> question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take on? 
> I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat that 
> someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible boat for 
> us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C 
> 
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
> 
> 
>  
> 
>> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are 
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter 
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat 
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally. 
> 
>  
> 
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts. Here are some 
> observations:
> 
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
> lifted from the stands.
> 
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 
> 
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on 
> internet searches.
> 
>  
> 
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), 
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Stephen Kidd via CnC-List]

Greetings,

I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.

We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.

Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
that's beyond our comfort zone.

So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C

Many thanks,
Stephen




 On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>>> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
 having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
 projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
 was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.



 I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
 . Here are some
 observations:

 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation
 when lifted from the stands.

 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.

 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
 internet searches.



 Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
 fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?



 Thanks!

 Stephen



Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

I had to do this project the past two winters. The keel was not loose, but I 
wanted to lose the smile. The first time I grinded back the seam, banded it 
with three layers of cloth, faired, barrier coated and painted. Sure looked 
great until we had a solid rock grounding and when she came out the seam was 
all cracked and we had some compression in the stern area of the sump that 
caused some drippage from the keel sump and some minor stringer damage.

 

Had to file a claim and fight to keep the boat from getting totaled. This time 
had it done professionally (over 10k) and one thing I learned from was that if 
you go the matt route you will add a lot more strength. Especially if you are 
grinding down the seam. I probably was a little too aggressive and should have 
added more strength the first time. Good news is I also got a new bottom job at 
the same time and she looked great when she came out this year. Best of luck!

 

John McCrea

Talisman 

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT

 

From: John Irvin via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 11:16 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: John Irvin 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

Strongly recommend smile repair be done with material that is somewhat 
flexible. The keel does need to move somewhat.

Sent from my iPhone





On Jan 4, 2022, at 9:59 AM, David Swensen via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

I will add my two cents. I received great advice and guidance from members of 
this list when the keel on my 35-3 was swinging in the wind, and leaking like a 
sieve. I would agree that because you do not have any water making its way into 
the sump, your seal is good, and tightening the bolts to spec, with 1/4 inch 
backing plates,  should snug up your keel. Don't assume that water is not 
trying to make it's way into the crack at the seam, so I would grind that out, 
fill, glass, and fair, then use an epoxy primer before applying bottom paint. 
If your bolts snug to spec, then you can feel good about the other end of them 
being secure in the lead keel.  

This fix is totally doable by yourself.  My 35-3 required more intensive repair 
of the keel stub (Thanks Dave S and Doug for your guidance), but my cost to 
repair was a small fraction of the quote  I received from the boat yard ($1700 
in materials and ~80 or so hours of my time vs. $16-20,000 for the yard to do 
it).  If your bolts are currently at spec, then I would look at lateral 
stability as Dave S suggested.  Your material cost would be much lower, as I 
needed 15 gallons of polyester resin to rebuild my keel stub/mast step. 

David Swensen

s/v Freya 35MK3

Beverly, MA

 

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:39 PM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

I think you said it was not leaking water from the outside into the bilge. If 
that's the case then the seal is still OK. I think if you do the repair you 
will be good to go. If you sell and move on to something different the new 
owner will have to fix it anyway and that will likely reduce considerably what 
you get for the boat  and it may not interest a buyer as is. The fix doesn't 
look too complicated from what i can see in the photos. 

 

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:16 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices, which 
makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the approach we 
take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing plates is part 
of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel bolt washers and 
unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while trying to figure out if 
that was normal or something done by a previous owner.

 

We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while motoring 
back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including incoming 
flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up 
drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was going 
on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and transported by 
trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that loosened things up? 
Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've had folk from two take a 
look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our new marina and another 
boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While we got an estimate for the 
keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the tightening/filling route is an 
option. There is also the "another boat" option to consider. It is greener, and 
just on the other side of the fence.

 

So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole 
elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or structural 
damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after tightening? In other 
words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases, has the problem most 
likely been resolved?

 

Thank you fo

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

Strongly recommend smile repair be done with material that is somewhat 
flexible. The keel does need to move somewhat.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 4, 2022, at 9:59 AM, David Swensen via CnC-List  
wrote:


I will add my two cents. I received great advice and guidance from members of 
this list when the keel on my 35-3 was swinging in the wind, and leaking like a 
sieve. I would agree that because you do not have any water making its way into 
the sump, your seal is good, and tightening the bolts to spec, with 1/4 inch 
backing plates,  should snug up your keel. Don't assume that water is not 
trying to make it's way into the crack at the seam, so I would grind that out, 
fill, glass, and fair, then use an epoxy primer before applying bottom paint. 
If your bolts snug to spec, then you can feel good about the other end of them 
being secure in the lead keel.
This fix is totally doable by yourself.  My 35-3 required more intensive repair 
of the keel stub (Thanks Dave S and Doug for your guidance), but my cost to 
repair was a small fraction of the quote  I received from the boat yard ($1700 
in materials and ~80 or so hours of my time vs. $16-20,000 for the yard to do 
it).  If your bolts are currently at spec, then I would look at lateral 
stability as Dave S suggested.  Your material cost would be much lower, as I 
needed 15 gallons of polyester resin to rebuild my keel stub/mast step.
David Swensen
s/v Freya 35MK3
Beverly, MA

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:39 PM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I think you said it was not leaking water from the outside into the bilge. If 
that's the case then the seal is still OK. I think if you do the repair you 
will be good to go. If you sell and move on to something different the new 
owner will have to fix it anyway and that will likely reduce considerably what 
you get for the boat  and it may not interest a buyer as is. The fix doesn't 
look too complicated from what i can see in the photos.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:16 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices, which 
makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the approach we 
take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing plates is part 
of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel bolt washers and 
unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while trying to figure out if 
that was normal or something done by a previous owner.

We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while motoring 
back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including incoming 
flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up 
drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was going 
on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and transported by 
trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that loosened things up? 
Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've had folk from two take a 
look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our new marina and another 
boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While we got an estimate for the 
keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the tightening/filling route is an 
option. There is also the "another boat" option to consider. It is greener, and 
just on the other side of the fence.

So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole 
elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or structural 
damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after tightening? In other 
words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases, has the problem most 
likely been resolved?

Thank you for the insights!


From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft most one, 
I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of washers, so the nut 
would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see where the washers 
rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the fiberglass big time. 
Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space, then either a short piece of 
heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a couple washers, or take that stack of 
washers and orient them correctly, and compress them with a bolt onto the 
backing plate, and have a welder fuse them together with a TIG without getting 
it too hot. Just enough to keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and 
tighten it up to specs.


Bill Coleman
Entrada, Erie, PA


On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are havi

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[David Swensen via CnC-List]

I will add my two cents. I received great advice and guidance from members
of this list when the keel on my 35-3 was swinging in the wind, and leaking
like a sieve. I would agree that because you do not have any water making
its way into the sump, your seal is good, and tightening the bolts to spec,
with 1/4 inch backing plates,  should snug up your keel. Don't assume that
water is not trying to make it's way into the crack at the seam, so I would
grind that out, fill, glass, and fair, then use an epoxy primer before
applying bottom paint. If your bolts snug to spec, then you can feel good
about the other end of them being secure in the lead keel.
This fix is totally doable by yourself.  My 35-3 required more
intensive repair of the keel stub (Thanks Dave S and Doug for your
guidance), but my cost to repair was a small fraction of the quote  I
received from the boat yard ($1700 in materials and ~80 or so hours of my
time vs. $16-20,000 for the yard to do it).  If your bolts are currently at
spec, then I would look at lateral stability as Dave S suggested.  Your
material cost would be much lower, as I needed 15 gallons of polyester
resin to rebuild my keel stub/mast step.
David Swensen
s/v Freya 35MK3
Beverly, MA

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:39 PM dwight veinot via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I think you said it was not leaking water from the outside into the bilge.
> If that's the case then the seal is still OK. I think if you do the repair
> you will be good to go. If you sell and move on to something different the
> new owner will have to fix it anyway and that will likely reduce
> considerably what you get for the boat  and it may not interest a buyer as
> is. The fix doesn't look too complicated from what i can see in the photos.
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:16 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices,
>> which makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the
>> approach we take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing
>> plates is part of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel
>> bolt washers and unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while
>> trying to figure out if that was normal or something done by a previous
>> owner.
>>
>> We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while
>> motoring back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including
>> incoming flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up
>> drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was
>> going on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and
>> transported by trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that
>> loosened things up? Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've
>> had folk from two take a look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our
>> new marina and another boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While
>> we got an estimate for the keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the
>> tightening/filling route is an option. There is also the "another boat"
>> option to consider. It is greener, and just on the other side of the fence.
>>
>> So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole
>> elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or
>> structural damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after
>> tightening? In other words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases,
>> has the problem most likely been resolved?
>>
>> Thank you for the insights!
>>
>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
>>> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
>>> *Cc:* Bill Coleman 
>>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft
>>> most one, I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of
>>> washers, so the nut would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see
>>> where the washers rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the
>>> fiberglass big time. Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space,
>>> then either a short piece of heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a
>>> couple washers, or take that stack of washers and orient them correctly,
>>> and compress them with a bolt onto the backing plate, and have a welder
>>> fuse them together with a TIG without getting it too hot. Just enough to
>>> keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and tighten it up to specs.
&g

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

IMHO, if the wiggle goes away after repairing/tightening the bolts, you solved 
the problem.  A soft grounding as you described may work on loosening the bolts 
a little bit, but unlikely would have done any structural damage.

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 6:39 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

I think you said it was not leaking water from the outside into the bilge. If 
that's the case then the seal is still OK. I think if you do the repair you 
will be good to go. If you sell and move on to something different the new 
owner will have to fix it anyway and that will likely reduce considerably what 
you get for the boat  and it may not interest a buyer as is. The fix doesn't 
look too complicated from what i can see in the photos. 

 

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:16 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices, which 
makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the approach we 
take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing plates is part 
of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel bolt washers and 
unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while trying to figure out if 
that was normal or something done by a previous owner.

 

We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while motoring 
back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including incoming 
flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up 
drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was going 
on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and transported by 
trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that loosened things up? 
Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've had folk from two take a 
look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our new marina and another 
boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While we got an estimate for the 
keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the tightening/filling route is an 
option. There is also the "another boat" option to consider. It is greener, and 
just on the other side of the fence.

 

So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole 
elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or structural 
damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after tightening? In other 
words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases, has the problem most 
likely been resolved?

 

Thank you for the insights! 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft most one, 
I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of washers, so the nut 
would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see where the washers 
rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the fiberglass big time. 
Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space, then either a short piece of 
heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a couple washers, or take that stack of 
washers and orient them correctly, and compress them with a bolt onto the 
backing plate, and have a welder fuse them together with a TIG without getting 
it too hot. Just enough to keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and 
tighten it up to specs.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and 
were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel 
lift, a little bit laterally. 

 

I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts 
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8> . Here are some observations:

1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
lifted from the stands.

2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 

3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on internet 
searches.

 

Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and 
paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 

 

Thanks!

Stephen

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

I think you said it was not leaking water from the outside into the bilge.
If that's the case then the seal is still OK. I think if you do the repair
you will be good to go. If you sell and move on to something different the
new owner will have to fix it anyway and that will likely reduce
considerably what you get for the boat  and it may not interest a buyer as
is. The fix doesn't look too complicated from what i can see in the photos.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 6:16 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices,
> which makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the
> approach we take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing
> plates is part of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel
> bolt washers and unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while
> trying to figure out if that was normal or something done by a previous
> owner.
>
> We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while
> motoring back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including
> incoming flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up
> drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was
> going on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and
> transported by trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that
> loosened things up? Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've
> had folk from two take a look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our
> new marina and another boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While
> we got an estimate for the keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the
> tightening/filling route is an option. There is also the "another boat"
> option to consider. It is greener, and just on the other side of the fence.
>
> So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole
> elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or
> structural damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after
> tightening? In other words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases,
> has the problem most likely been resolved?
>
> Thank you for the insights!
>
>
>>
>> *From:* Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
>> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
>> *Cc:* Bill Coleman 
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft
>> most one, I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of
>> washers, so the nut would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see
>> where the washers rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the
>> fiberglass big time. Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space,
>> then either a short piece of heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a
>> couple washers, or take that stack of washers and orient them correctly,
>> and compress them with a bolt onto the backing plate, and have a welder
>> fuse them together with a TIG without getting it too hot. Just enough to
>> keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and tighten it up to specs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Coleman
>>
>> Entrada, Erie, PA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
>> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
>> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
>> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
>> <https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8>. Here are some
>> observations:
>>
>> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when
>> lifted from the stands.
>>
>> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
>>
>> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
>> internet searches.
>>
>>
>>
>> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
>> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> Thanks - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Stephen Kidd via CnC-List]

These responses are super helpful! Four years in, we remain novices,
which makes it hard to even know the questions to ask. No matter the
approach we take, it is clear that replacing the washers and adding backing
plates is part of the project. I was a little perplexed by the aft keel
bolt washers and unsuccessfully poked around the internet for a while
trying to figure out if that was normal or something done by a previous
owner.

We did have a soft grounding in mud on the side of a channel while motoring
back to our marina this fall (in full view of everyone, including incoming
flights to DCA, of course). We were going pretty slow and ended up
drifting/sliding off, but physics is tricky, so I have no idea what was
going on down there. About a week later we had the boat hauled and
transported by trailer to her new home about an hour away. Maybe that
loosened things up? Luckily we now have better access to boatyards. We've
had folk from two take a look at the keel while the boat was in slings (our
new marina and another boatyard), but have not had a formal survey. While
we got an estimate for the keel-drop/re-bedding, both suggested that the
tightening/filling route is an option. There is also the "another boat"
option to consider. It is greener, and just on the other side of the fence.

So, my new question is, if we do have keel bolt degradation, bolt hole
elongation (not entirely sure what this is, but it sounds dire), or
structural damage to the sump, would we still expect wiggle after
tightening? In other words, if we tighten the keel bolts and wiggle ceases,
has the problem most likely been resolved?

Thank you for the insights!


>
> *From:* Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
> *Cc:* Bill Coleman 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?
>
>
>
> I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft most
> one, I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of washers, so
> the nut would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see where the
> washers rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the fiberglass
> big time. Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space, then either a
> short piece of heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a couple washers, or
> take that stack of washers and orient them correctly, and compress them
> with a bolt onto the backing plate, and have a welder fuse them together
> with a TIG without getting it too hot. Just enough to keep them from
> rotating. Then put in back in and tighten it up to specs.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
>
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> <https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8>. Here are some observations:
>
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when
> lifted from the stands.
>
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
>
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
>
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Agreed that some beefing up is in order (including backing plates).  Not sure 
welding is necessary.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 12:35 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft most one, 
I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of washers, so the nut 
would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see where the washers 
rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the fiberglass big time. 
Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space, then either a short piece of 
heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a couple washers, or take that stack of 
washers and orient them correctly, and compress them with a bolt onto the 
backing plate, and have a welder fuse them together with a TIG without getting 
it too hot. Just enough to keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and 
tighten it up to specs.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 11:31 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

You can fix that. Yes grind it out and clean surfaces well with acetone soaked 
rags. Use a brush and apply West system epoxy to cleaned surfaces. The fill the 
gap(s) with silica thickened epoxy putty.  Then a couple of layers of epoxy 
soaked glass matte. Grind to shaped and fair with polyester resin like 
lightweight car body filler. Torque keel bolts to spec before the crack repair 
and replace the washers with larger 3/8 inch stainless steel backing plates. 

 

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and 
were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel 
lift, a little bit laterally. 

 

I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts 
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8> . Here are some observations:

1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
lifted from the stands.

2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 

3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on internet 
searches.

 

Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and 
paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 

 

Thanks!

Stephen

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

This one piqued my curiosity so, Chiming in.  I h haven’t noticed that with my 
33-2 either, however I know it and it’s similarly-sized siblings have floor 
timbers (aka the spider) that form a structural grid essentially spreading the 
lateral keel loads onto the hull, some adjacent to bulkheads etc…. Basically 
stiffening the lot, including the keel in relation to the hull. 
Photo here:

http://cncwindstar.blogspot.com/search/label/Belowdeck?m=1

  The 25 as pictured has none of this though the mast step or a structural 
bulkhead (not pictured) may serve this purpose.  Obviously less load than a 
bigger deep draft fin keel boat, but one would not expect it to wiggle.If 
the keel is wiggling and the hull flexing with it, i’d look for some adjacent 
stiffening structure and check for issues.If the cast keel alone is 
wiggling - torque the bolts. (?)

Maybe that’s ‘how they are’?

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Dean McNeill via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> While I’m a new owner, I’ve now witnessed two launches and two haul-outs… 
> each involving a 500 yard run up a bumpy hill hanging/swaying in a sling (not 
> for the faint of heart) and my keel doesn’t move relative to the boat (1980 
> C 34) at all. 
> 
> It did have the familiar C smile when I bought it, but with the kind 
> direction of this group, a cautionary torquing of the keel bolts, and some 
> G-Flex applied pre-launch last season—that appears to be remedied for now.
> 
> Not to be alarmist, but I’d be concerned about any movement of keel relative 
> to the boat and would want to have it checked out by a marine surveyor while 
> it’s out of the water.
> 
> Dean
> BarraWind
> C 34
> Halifax NS  
> _
> 
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I have to agree with Dwight on the backing plates, ESPECIALLY the aft most one, 
I think. It looks like they cut the edges off the stack of washers, so the nut 
would fit in that tight space with a socket. I can see where the washers 
rotated with the tightening, and are chewing into the fiberglass big time. 
Maybe a 3/8” plate that just fits into that space, then either a short piece of 
heavywall SS Pipe as a spacer and then a couple washers, or take that stack of 
washers and orient them correctly, and compress them with a bolt onto the 
backing plate, and have a welder fuse them together with a TIG without getting 
it too hot. Just enough to keep them from rotating. Then put in back in and 
tighten it up to specs.

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 11:31 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

You can fix that. Yes grind it out and clean surfaces well with acetone soaked 
rags. Use a brush and apply West system epoxy to cleaned surfaces. The fill the 
gap(s) with silica thickened epoxy putty.  Then a couple of layers of epoxy 
soaked glass matte. Grind to shaped and fair with polyester resin like 
lightweight car body filler. Torque keel bolts to spec before the crack repair 
and replace the washers with larger 3/8 inch stainless steel backing plates. 

 

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and 
were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel 
lift, a little bit laterally. 

 

I've uploaded some photos of <https://photos.app.goo.gl/TVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8>  the 
keel and the keel bolts. Here are some observations:

1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
lifted from the stands.

2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 

3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on internet 
searches.

 

Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and 
paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 

 

Thanks!

Stephen

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Unless you had a hard grounding of something serious, a little movement is 
likely caused by loose keel bolts.  We noticed the aft end of the keel on my 42 
was not tight when we hauled out in 2020.  The culprit was the back two bolts.  
We tightened the nuts and all is well.  Not sure what caused them to loosen, 
but I suspect it was a little diesel fuel in the bilge.

 

From: Dean McNeill via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2022 11:40 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dean McNeill 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

While I’m a new owner, I’ve now witnessed two launches and two haul-outs… each 
involving a 500 yard run up a bumpy hill hanging/swaying in a sling (not for 
the faint of heart) and my keel doesn’t move relative to the boat (1980 C 34) 
at all. 

 

It did have the familiar C smile when I bought it, but with the kind 
direction of this group, a cautionary torquing of the keel bolts, and some 
G-Flex applied pre-launch last season—that appears to be remedied for now.

 

Not to be alarmist, but I’d be concerned about any movement of keel relative to 
the boat and would want to have it checked out by a marine surveyor while it’s 
out of the water.

 

Dean

BarraWind

C 34

Halifax NS  

_

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dean McNeill via CnC-List]

While I’m a new owner, I’ve now witnessed two launches and two haul-outs… each 
involving a 500 yard run up a bumpy hill hanging/swaying in a sling (not for 
the faint of heart) and my keel doesn’t move relative to the boat (1980 C 34) 
at all. 

It did have the familiar C smile when I bought it, but with the kind 
direction of this group, a cautionary torquing of the keel bolts, and some 
G-Flex applied pre-launch last season—that appears to be remedied for now.

Not to be alarmist, but I’d be concerned about any movement of keel relative to 
the boat and would want to have it checked out by a marine surveyor while it’s 
out of the water.

Dean
BarraWind
C 34
Halifax NS  
_

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Richard Bush via CnC-List]

 Agree with Dave: there is no such thing as wiggle room in keels
 
Richard
 
Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 
 
-Original Message-
From: David Risch via CnC-List 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2022 11:27 am
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

Heated agreement.  Any wiggle and that keel 
is being dropped and properly re-bedded.   IMHO elongation of bolt holes has 
occurred and will only get worse.    From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 

Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 11:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?    I would say none is closer to 
normal. I have a 1974 C 35. Never saw its keel wiggle lifted out of the water 
in fall and put back in the water every spring.     On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 9:13 
AM Julian Norris via CnC-List  wrote: 
I also noticed that the keel on my 30 MKII wiggled alarming during lift out 
this year. Our club lifts as a group with a crane with very long straps. It was 
very windy so the straps were vibrating in the breeze (gale?) which transferred 
to the hull and caused the keel to wiggle. In my case I believe the fibreglass 
keel stub was flexing, not the joint at the keel bolts. After being alarmed by 
this on my boat I paid closer attention to the subsequent boats coming out and 
observed that some of those wiggled too but not to the same degree as mine. I 
have inspected the structure around the bilge to the extent that it’s visible 
and don’t see any issues. I’m very interested in hearing opinions from this 
list about how much keel movement is normal.    Julian Norris C 30-2  
Halifax, N.S. Sent from my iPhone 

 
On Jan 2, 2022, at 3:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List  
wrote: 

 Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and 
were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel 
lift, a little bit laterally.     I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the 
keel bolts. Here are some observations: 1) No signs of weeping from the keel 
joint and no visible separation when lifted from the stands. 2) None of the 
keel bolts (3 in total) leak.  3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of 
the C smile based on internet searches.    Should we torque the keel bolts, 
grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and paint, or is this beyond a 
"smile" fix?     Thanks! Stephen          Thanks to all of the subscribers that 
contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show 
your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu 
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu 
--  Sent from Gmail Mobile Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to 
the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to 
the list - use PayPal to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  
Thanks - StuThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

You can fix that. Yes grind it out and clean surfaces well with acetone
soaked rags. Use a brush and apply West system epoxy to cleaned surfaces.
The fill the gap(s) with silica thickened epoxy putty.  Then a couple of
layers of epoxy soaked glass matte. Grind to shaped and fair with polyester
resin like lightweight car body filler. Torque keel bolts to spec before
the crack repair and replace the washers with larger 3/8 inch stainless
steel backing plates.

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> . Here are some observations:
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when
> lifted from the stands.
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
> Thanks!
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Heated agreement.  Any wiggle and that keel is being dropped and properly 
re-bedded.   IMHO elongation of bolt holes has occurred and will only get worse.

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 11:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

I would say none is closer to normal. I have a 1974 C 35. Never saw its keel 
wiggle lifted out of the water in fall and put back in the water every spring.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 9:13 AM Julian Norris via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I also noticed that the keel on my 30 MKII wiggled alarming during lift out 
this year. Our club lifts as a group with a crane with very long straps. It was 
very windy so the straps were vibrating in the breeze (gale?) which transferred 
to the hull and caused the keel to wiggle. In my case I believe the fibreglass 
keel stub was flexing, not the joint at the keel bolts. After being alarmed by 
this on my boat I paid closer attention to the subsequent boats coming out and 
observed that some of those wiggled too but not to the same degree as mine. I 
have inspected the structure around the bilge to the extent that it’s visible 
and don’t see any issues. I’m very interested in hearing opinions from this 
list about how much keel movement is normal.

Julian Norris
C 30-2
Halifax, N.S.
Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 2, 2022, at 3:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and 
were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel 
lift, a little bit laterally.

I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel 
bolts<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphotos.app.goo.gl%2FTVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8=04%7C01%7C%7C2d995608f0bd48c5388a08d9ced50e1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637768236726711422%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=XnHD48Tw0rc%2Byg4TBnoenouzlxxd%2BCQNQ%2B%2BSL51vafA%3D=0>.
 Here are some observations:
1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
lifted from the stands.
2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on internet 
searches.

Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and 
paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?

Thanks!
Stephen



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  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
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  Thanks - Stu
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
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Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

I would say none is closer to normal. I have a 1974 C 35. Never saw its
keel wiggle lifted out of the water in fall and put back in the water every
spring.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 9:13 AM Julian Norris via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I also noticed that the keel on my 30 MKII wiggled alarming during lift
> out this year. Our club lifts as a group with a crane with very long
> straps. It was very windy so the straps were vibrating in the breeze
> (gale?) which transferred to the hull and caused the keel to wiggle. In my
> case I believe the fibreglass keel stub was flexing, not the joint at the
> keel bolts. After being alarmed by this on my boat I paid closer attention
> to the subsequent boats coming out and observed that some of those wiggled
> too but not to the same degree as mine. I have inspected the structure
> around the bilge to the extent that it’s visible and don’t see any issues.
> I’m very interested in hearing opinions from this list about how much keel
> movement is normal.
>
> Julian Norris
> C 30-2
> Halifax, N.S.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 2, 2022, at 3:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> . Here are some observations:
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when
> lifted from the stands.
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
> Thanks!
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Julian Norris via CnC-List]

I also noticed that the keel on my 30 MKII wiggled alarming during lift out 
this year. Our club lifts as a group with a crane with very long straps. It was 
very windy so the straps were vibrating in the breeze (gale?) which transferred 
to the hull and caused the keel to wiggle. In my case I believe the fibreglass 
keel stub was flexing, not the joint at the keel bolts. After being alarmed by 
this on my boat I paid closer attention to the subsequent boats coming out and 
observed that some of those wiggled too but not to the same degree as mine. I 
have inspected the structure around the bilge to the extent that it’s visible 
and don’t see any issues. I’m very interested in hearing opinions from this 
list about how much keel movement is normal.

Julian Norris
C 30-2 
Halifax, N.S.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 3:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having 
> with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects 
> and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the 
> travel lift, a little bit laterally. 
> 
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts. Here are some 
> observations:
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
> lifted from the stands.
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on 
> internet searches.
> 
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, 
> and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 
> 
> Thanks!
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

I'd put some larger 1/4 inch stainless plates under the nuts to better
spread the load and then torque the keelbolt nuts to spec.

Then remove any crumbly material at the crack, fill it with epoxy/glass mix
and apply a couple layers of overlapping biaxial tape and epoxy.  Fair and
paint.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 1:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> . Here are some observations:
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when
> lifted from the stands.
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
> Thanks!
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu