Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-10 Thread Julia Lawall 
OK, Markus, out you go...

julia

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, SF Markus Elfring wrote:

> >>> The only effect your emails had on me was a big "WTF!?".
> >>
> >> All of them (including the provided small SmPL script examples on
> >> 2016-10-05)?
> >
> > You wrote three emails on that day. I assume you mean this one?
>
> There are further possibilities to improve your learning experience around
> the replacement of data types and variable names, aren't there?
>
>
> > ,
> > | > 2. ..and how would I go about if instead of the type, I want to replace
> > | >a variable name? (my_type *ptr --> my_type *pointer).
> > |
> > | Would you like to try another small SmPL script out like the following?
> > |
> > |
> > | @name_replacement@
> > | @@
> > |  my_type *
> > | -ptr
> > | +pointer
> > |  ;
> > |
> > |
> > | How will your software development experiments evolve for the desired
> > | application of the semantic patch language?
> > `
> >
> > I'm afraid the answer is yes.
>
> Interesting …
>
>
> > Even though the snippet was relevant,
>
> Nice. - Thanks for this kind of feedback.
>
>
> > its presentation triggered the same WTF effect.
>
> Are you really at the beginning of a learning process where almost every
> new information can make you upset anyhow?
>
> * How would this fit to your academic education?
>
> * Did you start reading the Coccinelle manual?
>
>
> >>> What's the point of all these random questions that you bring up in
> >>> response to every sentence?
> >>
> >> Did you inspect any items from the GitHub issue tracker?
> > [...]
> >
> > Well, I tried to make a point here., but it quite obviously failed utterly.
>
> I find that a constructive discussion consists of several questions and some
> corresponding answers, doesn't it?
>
> I am wondering about the learning style that you seem to present here
> in comparison to some information which was published in your blog.
> Are there any further challenges to clarify around a term like "mental 
> capacity"?
>
> Can any additional techniques or tools help to avoid unwanted
> communication difficulties so that another software development "fusion"
> would be achievable?
>
> Regards,
> Markus
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-10 Thread SF Markus Elfring 
>>> The only effect your emails had on me was a big "WTF!?".
>>
>> All of them (including the provided small SmPL script examples on
>> 2016-10-05)?
> 
> You wrote three emails on that day. I assume you mean this one?

There are further possibilities to improve your learning experience around
the replacement of data types and variable names, aren't there?


> ,
> | > 2. ..and how would I go about if instead of the type, I want to replace
> | >a variable name? (my_type *ptr --> my_type *pointer).
> | 
> | Would you like to try another small SmPL script out like the following?
> | 
> | 
> | @name_replacement@
> | @@
> |  my_type *
> | -ptr
> | +pointer
> |  ;
> | 
> | 
> | How will your software development experiments evolve for the desired
> | application of the semantic patch language?
> `
> 
> I'm afraid the answer is yes.

Interesting …


> Even though the snippet was relevant,

Nice. - Thanks for this kind of feedback.


> its presentation triggered the same WTF effect.

Are you really at the beginning of a learning process where almost every
new information can make you upset anyhow?

* How would this fit to your academic education?

* Did you start reading the Coccinelle manual?


>>> What's the point of all these random questions that you bring up in
>>> response to every sentence?
>>
>> Did you inspect any items from the GitHub issue tracker?
> [...]
> 
> Well, I tried to make a point here., but it quite obviously failed utterly.

I find that a constructive discussion consists of several questions and some
corresponding answers, doesn't it?

I am wondering about the learning style that you seem to present here
in comparison to some information which was published in your blog.
Are there any further challenges to clarify around a term like "mental 
capacity"?

Can any additional techniques or tools help to avoid unwanted
communication difficulties so that another software development "fusion"
would be achievable?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-09 Thread Nikolaus Rath 
On Oct 09 2016, SF Markus Elfring  wrote:
>> The only effect your emails had on me was a big "WTF!?".
>
> All of them (including the provided small SmPL script examples on
> 2016-10-05)?

You wrote three emails on that day. I assume you mean this one?

,
| > 2. ..and how would I go about if instead of the type, I want to replace
| >a variable name? (my_type *ptr --> my_type *pointer).
| 
| Would you like to try another small SmPL script out like the following?
| 
| 
| @name_replacement@
| @@
|  my_type *
| -ptr
| +pointer
|  ;
| 
| 
| How will your software development experiments evolve for the desired
| application of the semantic patch language?
`

I'm afraid the answer is yes. Even though the snippet was relevant, its
presentation triggered the same WTF effect.


>>> Would you like to start another marketing project?
>> 
>> What's the point of all these random questions that you bring up in
>> response to every sentence?
>
> Did you inspect any items from the GitHub issue tracker?
[...]

Well, I tried to make a point here., but it quite obviously failed
utterly.


Best,
-Nikolaus

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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-09 Thread SF Markus Elfring 
>>> Someone who has to read so much text and in the end has no information
>>> about the question he was asking will not likely get a good impression
>>> about the software he is trying to use.
>>
>> A beginner should usually read some text for the desired learning experience.
>> Can it be that you worry a bit too much about the potential for
>> bad impressions around your software?
> 
> Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but Julia is spot on.

Thanks for your interesting feedback.

It seems to indicate also special details about your learning approach.


> The only effect your emails had on me was a big "WTF!?".

All of them (including the provided small SmPL script examples on 2016-10-05)?


Do you care for the consequences around the usage of embedded (programming)
languages within the semantic patch language as "a host"?
Can such a distinction be useful also for you?


> Had Julia not responded to my messages at almost the same time,

Here software support is very nice, isn't it?


> I would have left this list and Coccinelle for good.

I wonder that you would really run away so quickly just because
a few alternative description approaches became a bit longer.


>> Would you like to start another marketing project?
> 
> What's the point of all these random questions that you bring up in
> response to every sentence?

Did you inspect any items from the GitHub issue tracker?


> Do you think they are helpful?

I hope so.


>> I find that this mailing list gets only low message traffic so far.
> 
> Do you think others share this impression?

Yes. - I guess so. (I do not know concrete numbers for my view.)


> Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

It might be easier to get started than in other areas you could get
involved in depending on your desire.

I hope that the varying topic mixture is interesting enough as another
valuable information source.


> How do you think will this situation evolve?

I imagine that the Coccinelle software will be improved in various directions.
I hope that the attractiveness of the provided tools will increase accordingly.
Will such an evolution mean more users with a higher message exchange rate
at various places?


>> So I would imagine that most well-intended discussion contributions could
>> be useful. Is the mixture of presented topics reasonable?
> 
> What do you mean with discussion contributions?

Did I (and the other contributors) publish any messages on this mailing list
before that could fit to your way of looking for helpful information already?


> Do you think that asking if the topic is reasonable is equivalent to asking
> if the specific contributions are reasonable?

No. - Would you like to discuss this aspect any further?


>> We came along different views around the usage of "expressions"
>> in previous discussions, didn't we?
> 
> Whom do you mean with "we"?

I guess that it could be primarily interpreted as Julia and me.


> Is it important in this context?

I find the software development history somewhat relevant also in this use case.


>> You repeated the explanation "An expression is something that has a value."
>> which is reasonable to some degree. I would like to know then:
>> Which "value" is provided by the software construct "idexpression"
>> in the semantic patch language?
> 
> Do you think you will be able to find out the answer to this question?

I could get some information from reading OCaml source code in principle.
But I would prefer an other clarification approach.


> How could we best assist you in that?

Which possibilities have you got in mind at the moment?
Are you really interested in improving your "assistance" in significant ways?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread Nikolaus Rath 
On Oct 08 2016, SF Markus Elfring  wrote:
>> Someone who has to read so much text and in the end has no information
>> about the question he was asking will not likely get a good impression
>> about the software he is trying to use.
>
> A beginner should usually read some text for the desired learning experience.
> Can it be that you worry a bit too much about the potential for
> bad impressions around your software?

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but Julia is spot on. The only
effect your emails had on me was a big "WTF!?". Had Julia not responded
to my messages at almost the same time, I would have left this list and
Coccinelle for good.

> Would you like to start another marketing project?

What's the point of all these random questions that you bring up in
response to every sentence? Do you think they are helpful?

> I find that this mailing list gets only low message traffic so far.

Do you think others share this impression? Do you think this is a good
thing or a bad thing? How do you think will this situation evolve?

> So I would imagine that most well-intended discussion contributions could
> be useful. Is the mixture of presented topics reasonable?

What do you mean with discussion contributions? Do you think that asking
if the topic is reasonable is equivalent to asking if the specific
contributions are reasonable?


> We came along different views around the usage of "expressions"
> in previous discussions, didn't we?

Whom do you mean with "we"? Is it important in this context?

> You repeated the explanation "An expression is something that has a value."
> which is reasonable to some degree. I would like to know then:
> Which "value" is provided by the software construct "idexpression"
> in the semantic patch language?

Do you think you will be able to find out the answer to this question?
How could we best assist you in that?


Best,
-Nikolaus

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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread Julia Lawall 


On Sat, 8 Oct 2016, SF Markus Elfring wrote:

> > I'm not angry at all,
>
> Thanks for your feedback that there are other emotions involved.
>
>
> > only tired of so much incorrect
>
> Which details from my description approach are inappropriate in your view?

The whole numbered list was pointless.  He was trying to understand what
is meant by "idexpression".  This is a concept particular to Coccinelle,
that was introduced because we discovered that sometimes one wants to
focus only on identifiers, but to also specify their types.  I couldn't
tell from your answer what question it was intended to be relevant to, but
I don't think it is the same as the one he was asking.  It seems to be a
generic overview of what Coccinelle does.  Someone who has to read so much
text and in the end has no information about the question he was asking
will not likely get a good impression about the software he is trying to
use.

julia
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread SF Markus Elfring 
> I'm not angry at all,

Thanks for your feedback that there are other emotions involved.


> only tired of so much incorrect

Which details from my description approach are inappropriate in your view?


> or unnecessary information being provided to new users.

I got the impression somehow that the clarification request by Nikolaus Rath 
evolved into a direction where further technical background information
would be useful.
He can also decide on his own if and how he would eventually like to
continue this software development and user support discussion.

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread Julia Lawall 
> > The next time you answer a question from a newcomer where your answer
> > either includes a question or goes beyond say 3 lines of text, I will
> > adjust your subscription to the mailing list such that you no longer
> > receive mail.
>
> Did you really get so angry that you reconsider our collaboration in such
> a drastic way?

I'm not angry at all, only tired of so much incorrect or unnecessary
information being provided to new users.  It's not practical to write to
each new user and say "Please ignore this message".  I would prefer that
they just stop in the first place.

julia
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread SF Markus Elfring 
>>* Syntax constructs from the supported source languages are matched with
>>  "key words" that are often similar (or even identical) to the host 
>> language
>>  (within SmPL scripts).
> 
> This is an enormous amount of verbiage,

Interesting view …


> and I don't see the relevance to the question.

I am trying to explain the matching from syntax elements of the
C programming language to the means of the semantic patch language
from my view.


> Furthermore, I would very much appreciate it if you would stop responding
> to any questions from new users.

I find this kind of response surprising.

Would you eventually like to benefit from additional views which evolved
during collaboration of some years?


> You are not the developer or maintainer of Coccinelle.

This information is appropriate to some degree.

How do you think about the evolution around roles like "intensive SmPL user",
"system tester", "bug reporter" and "supporter"?

* I am trying to contribute a bit also to your software.

* I am active as another ordinary free software for years.


> You don't represent the tool in any way.

I do not represent it "officially". - But I can imagine that my software
development activities have got some useful "side effects" from
which a kind of "image" or "representation" could have evolved already.


> A very large portion of the information that you provide is incorrect

Would you like to clarify this a bit more?


> or unnecessary.

I got an other impression about the necessity.


> I am very concerned that you will frighten people away,

I can understand your concern a bit.


> especially if you ask them to do things that go beyond their
> intended involvement, such as your "Do you see further chances to
> reduce..." comment below.

The involvement can eventually increase, can't it?


> The next time you answer a question from a newcomer where your answer
> either includes a question or goes beyond say 3 lines of text, I will
> adjust your subscription to the mailing list such that you no longer
> receive mail.

Did you really get so angry that you reconsider our collaboration in such
a drastic way?


> I'm sure you consider that you are helping out,

I hope so.

Did my small script examples help a bit in the requested clarification?


> but you are not,

I find this feedback interesting and surprising.


> and it needs to stop immediately.

How can software development discussions be continued after such a response?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Cocci] Usage of "expressions" and "identifiers" with SmPL

2016-10-08 Thread SF Markus Elfring 
> To me, an identifier is something that's written literally into the
> source code and cannot be meaningfully taken apart, e.g. a function
> name, variable name, or the member of a struct. An expression, on the
> other hand, is something that can be meaningfully split into
> sub-components. Is that also how you use these terms?

Yes, in principle.

The Coccinelle software was designed for the generation of semantic patches.

1. Its tool "spatch" expects some input and will usually produce
   corresponding output.

2. One kind of such input are source files for which data processing
   is also directly supported if they were mostly written in a programming
   language like "C".

3. Another kind of required input is the specification of source code search
   or transformation patterns in the semantic patch language.

4. Special data processing is also possible just because the programming
   languages "OCaml" and "Python" can be used in SmPL script rules already.

5. There are several languages involved. SmPL script developers need to be
   careful about the relevant syntax context.

   * So while you are looking from a view of "C source", you might tend
 to think about "C identifiers". The semantic patch language provides
 metavariables which can get the data type "identifier".

   * But what was an "item" in the source language can become an other
 in the Coccinelle technology.
 One example is the use of a metavariable with the type "idexpression"
 in your case. At which places would you start to think about a code
 situation by the means of "expressions"?

   * Syntax constructs from the supported source languages are matched with
 "key words" that are often similar (or even identical) to the host language
 (within SmPL scripts).


>> @ connects patterns that match the same term.  So match a term against the
>> explicit name ptr and also match it against an identifier expression that
>> has a particular type.  This is not exactly a beginner example.
> 
> Okay, I'll just ignore that for now.
> 
>>> I'd hate to waste your time asking tons of such trivial questions on the
>>> mailing list, but I just can't find any helpful documentation at all...
>>
>> If you look on the web page in the papers and slides section, at the top
>> there are several tutorials and overview talks, some with video.
> 
> I think I looked at everything that is not a video.

Thanks for your feedback.


> But none of it mentioned that you can put an arbitrary name between the @@

I got an other impression from the available documentation.


> or explained what the different metavariable types (idexpression,
> expression, etc) are.

I see some improvement possibilities there, too.


> Anyway, enough whining. Coccinelle seems like a really useful tool,

Yes, of course.


> even if I'm having an impedance mismatch with its documentation.

Do you see further chances to reduce this mismatch for following
software developers?

Regards,
Markus
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