Re: Thoughts on Cocoa

[Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev]

> On Oct 11, 2019, at 11:17 PM, Charles Srstka via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Oct 11, 2019, at 5:29 PM, tblenko--- via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> and the maturity of the compilers available, there is any need for Swift. 
>> But there it is. Or, there they are. Perhaps this is the way the younger 
>> generation overtthrows the older? Or not, but I’m pretty sure there is no 
>> compelling business argument for it.
> 
> 
> Holy hell, Swift isn’t perfect, but I’d rather use it over C++ a thousand 
> times over.


It feels to me that Swift is to LLVM as C++ was to gcc.

-- 
Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver <><


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Re: Need for Swift

[Charles Srstka via Cocoa-dev]

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Charles Srstka  wrote:
> 
> The string nil checks, in particular,

This was meant to be “The strict nil checks.” Ah, the joy of mailing lists, 
where there’s no edit feature.

Charles

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Re: Need for Swift

[Charles Srstka via Cocoa-dev]

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yeah I think Apple saw Obj-C as a barrier for developer adoption. I don't
> think that's too far from the truth considering the emphasis on teaching
> Swift to young devs, Playgrounds, the marketing about teenagers making
> their first app, etc.
> 
> Swift has its quirks but most people around me prefer it over Obj-C too,
> even experienced devs. From StackOverflow trends and other metrics as soon
> as Swift was announced the popularity of Obj-C declined steadily even when
> it was clear Swift was still not ready for production:
> 
>   - https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/objective-c/ 
> 
>   - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=objective-c 
> 
Swift’s first few versions were awful, but the community has been very 
responsive in responding to developer feedback and what we have now is really 
quite a nice language, possibly the nicest I’ve used. The string nil checks, in 
particular, are something I’ve become a believer in, especially when spending a 
bunch of time trying to debug an issue while writing projects in other 
languages that turns out to be a nil showing up somewhere where we didn’t 
expect it.

The main quibble I have with it is the Objective-C bridge, which contains much 
more magic than I’d prefer, and of course certain legacy issues that come along 
with having to use the Objective-C frameworks (hello, autorelease pools). When 
writing cross-platform code on Linux or something, these complaints are of 
course moot. I hope they release a Windows version at some point; I’d really 
like to see Swift gain more acceptance as a general-purpose programming 
language.

Charles

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Re: Need for Swift

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

Yeah I think Apple saw Obj-C as a barrier for developer adoption. I don't
think that's too far from the truth considering the emphasis on teaching
Swift to young devs, Playgrounds, the marketing about teenagers making
their first app, etc.

Swift has its quirks but most people around me prefer it over Obj-C too,
even experienced devs. From StackOverflow trends and other metrics as soon
as Swift was announced the popularity of Obj-C declined steadily even when
it was clear Swift was still not ready for production:

   - https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/objective-c/
   - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=objective-c


On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:05 AM Laurent Daudelin via Cocoa-dev <
cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:

> I think Swift came out for the Apple’s desire to make it even more
> appealing to develop for its platforms. I don’t know over the years how
> many times I’ve heard people bitching about Objective-C and its “weird”
> syntax. People couldn’t get over it. Swift makes it easy for all the
> throngs of Java developer to feel right back at home...
>
> -Laurent.
> --
> Laurent Daudelin
>   laur...@nemesys-soft.com  laur...@nemesys-soft.com>
> Skype: LaurentDaudelin
> Logiciels Némésys Software
>   http://www.nemesys-soft.com/ 
>
> > On Oct 12, 2019, at 07:35, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 11, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Kirk Kerekes via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> It is my inference that Swift arose out of a perceived need for a
> language that strongly inhibited bad/lazy/sloppy programming practices, and
> yet looked “normal”.
> >
> > Here is my take. I think Swift came from the mind of Chris Lattner who
> showed it to management and they loved the idea. It was made possible by
> the power and flexibility of the LLVM compiler.
> >
> > --Richard Charles
> >
> > ___
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoa

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

—Jens 

> On Oct 11, 2019, at 3:32 PM, tblenko--- via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> I attended a public (technical) talk in Town Hall (I think it’s called) at 
> Apple shortly before or after I went to work there. It would have been around 
> 2000-2001.
> 
> The speaker’s message was that the future of the desktop was Java the 
> speaker was the manager of the compiler group responsible for Java and 
> Objective-C — and had been going back to early NeXT days. So one had to 
> conclude that he was committed to the course he described. People tried to 
> ask about Objective-C (vs. Java) and he said that Objective-C was done, he 
> clearly didn’t want to talk about that.

That was the feeling at NeXT/Apple at the time of the merger, but it had 
fizzled out by 2000. Performance of Java, especially app launch time, wasn’t 
good enough. That sounds like Steve Naroff talking (great guy), but probably no 
later than 1999.

 (I was working on Java at Apple during that time. I was a huge Java zealot 
early on, but by 2000 I’d decided it wasn’t good for desktop apps, and embraced 
Obj-C.)

—Jens
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Re: Need for Swift

[Laurent Daudelin via Cocoa-dev]

I think Swift came out for the Apple’s desire to make it even more appealing to 
develop for its platforms. I don’t know over the years how many times I’ve 
heard people bitching about Objective-C and its “weird” syntax. People couldn’t 
get over it. Swift makes it easy for all the throngs of Java developer to feel 
right back at home...

-Laurent.
-- 
Laurent Daudelin
laur...@nemesys-soft.com 
Skype: LaurentDaudelin  
Logiciels Némésys Software  
http://www.nemesys-soft.com/ 

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 07:35, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 11, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Kirk Kerekes via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It is my inference that Swift arose out of a perceived need for a language 
>> that strongly inhibited bad/lazy/sloppy programming practices, and yet 
>> looked “normal”.
> 
> Here is my take. I think Swift came from the mind of Chris Lattner who showed 
> it to management and they loved the idea. It was made possible by the power 
> and flexibility of the LLVM compiler.
> 
> --Richard Charles
> 
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Re: Need for Swift

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Oct 11, 2019, at 9:09 PM, Kirk Kerekes via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> It is my inference that Swift arose out of a perceived need for a language 
> that strongly inhibited bad/lazy/sloppy programming practices, and yet looked 
> “normal”.

Here is my take. I think Swift came from the mind of Chris Lattner who showed 
it to management and they loved the idea. It was made possible by the power and 
flexibility of the LLVM compiler.

--Richard Charles

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Re: Thoughts on Cocoa source code

[조성빈 via Cocoa-dev]

> 2019. 10. 12. 오후 7:52, Jean-Daniel  작성:
> 
> 
>>> Le 12 oct. 2019 à 03:07, 조성빈 via Cocoa-dev  a 
>>> écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2019. 10. 12. 오전 9:55, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  작성:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 11, 2019, at 1:14 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
  wrote:
 
>> I know this is the Cocoa devs list... but why not make a website?
>> It would be easier to develop, completely crossplatform, no app store
>> complications, you would be in total control of your stack, etc.
 
 QuickBooks has gone that route.  They still grudgingly sell desktop apps,
 but really push people towards their cloud version.  Besides all the
 benefits you mention, it's a steady monthly income.  Hence why Microsoft
 and Adobe are also going that route.  Apple too.
>>> 
>>> If I understand this correctly.
>>> 
>>> Microsoft Office Web apps (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) are simplified versions 
>>> of desktops apps that run in a web browser along with a subscription 
>>> service.
>>> 
>>> Apple iWork web apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) are feature complete 
>>> versions of desktop and mobile apps that run in a web browser. Apple has 
>>> never released the details of how they do this.
>> 
>> Microsoft Office & Apple iWork web apps could be complex due to 
>> compatibility with the offline ones, and that they have a feature set that 
>> only has steadily expanded for a ten to twenty years.
>> They also need to have their app integrated with their other services.
>> 
>>> Adobe Creative Cloud apps (Lightroom and Photoshop) are native apps for 
>>> desktop and mobile with cloud based storage and a subscription service. 
>>> They are not cross-platform browser based web apps.
>>> 
>>> None but the biggest of companies can do this.
>> 
>> That’s not true, web apps aren’t really complex if you get to use the npm 
>> ecosystem. There are high quality libraries that do much of the heavy 
>> lifting, so writing ones usually are wiring glue code between the libraries.
> 
> I’m not quite sure what your definition of complex is, but on my side, I 
> consider that an app that use hundred (if not thousand) of dependencies that 
> have to be review

To be optimal, all of the npm dependencies should be reviewed... but I’ve never 
seen a codebase that reviews all of its deps.
Mostly, if it is done, it’s usually the direct ones, and to be honest, it 
really doesn’t matter if you want to get things done. 

I’m pretty sure most Cocoa codebases don’t review its cocoapods deps as well.

> and properly managed to avoid conflict

I’ve never seen npm dependencies conflict. 

> and can disappear without notice and break your app,

After the left-pad fiasco, packages with dependents cannot be removed without 
npm’s consent.

> is a complex system.

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Re: Thoughts on Cocoa source code

[Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev]

> Le 12 oct. 2019 à 03:07, 조성빈 via Cocoa-dev  a 
> écrit :
> 
>> 
>> 2019. 10. 12. 오전 9:55, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>>  작성:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 11, 2019, at 1:14 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
> I know this is the Cocoa devs list... but why not make a website?
> It would be easier to develop, completely crossplatform, no app store
> complications, you would be in total control of your stack, etc.
>>> 
>>> QuickBooks has gone that route.  They still grudgingly sell desktop apps,
>>> but really push people towards their cloud version.  Besides all the
>>> benefits you mention, it's a steady monthly income.  Hence why Microsoft
>>> and Adobe are also going that route.  Apple too.
>> 
>> If I understand this correctly.
>> 
>> Microsoft Office Web apps (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) are simplified versions 
>> of desktops apps that run in a web browser along with a subscription service.
>> 
>> Apple iWork web apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) are feature complete versions 
>> of desktop and mobile apps that run in a web browser. Apple has never 
>> released the details of how they do this.
> 
> Microsoft Office & Apple iWork web apps could be complex due to compatibility 
> with the offline ones, and that they have a feature set that only has 
> steadily expanded for a ten to twenty years.
> They also need to have their app integrated with their other services.
> 
>> Adobe Creative Cloud apps (Lightroom and Photoshop) are native apps for 
>> desktop and mobile with cloud based storage and a subscription service. They 
>> are not cross-platform browser based web apps.
>> 
>> None but the biggest of companies can do this.
> 
> That’s not true, web apps aren’t really complex if you get to use the npm 
> ecosystem. There are high quality libraries that do much of the heavy 
> lifting, so writing ones usually are wiring glue code between the libraries.

I’m not quite sure what your definition of complex is, but on my side, I 
consider that an app that use hundred (if not thousand) of dependencies that 
have to be review and properly managed to avoid conflict and can disappear 
without notice and break your app, is a complex system.

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Re: Thoughts on Cocoa

[Charles Srstka via Cocoa-dev]

> On Oct 11, 2019, at 5:29 PM, tblenko--- via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Me, I still don’t understand why, given the long history of support at 
> Apple/NeXT for C++

…what?

> and the maturity of the compilers available, there is any need for Swift. But 
> there it is. Or, there they are. Perhaps this is the way the younger 
> generation overtthrows the older? Or not, but I’m pretty sure there is no 
> compelling business argument for it.


Holy hell, Swift isn’t perfect, but I’d rather use it over C++ a thousand times 
over.

Charles

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