Re: other developer lists

[Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev]

Another reason why there's really no harm -if not some truly topical good- in 
this kind of thread (even w/ some critiques/defenses) bubbling up here now and 
again...

Thanks, all,
-Matt

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
 Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?
> 
> I manage the apple-dev.groups.io 
> 
>  site, which hosts a number of Apple developer lists including a Cocoa one.
> 
> I'd be happy to create a list for these kinds of discussions, if we can come 
> up with a suitable title and tag-line. (My experience is that lists created 
> to host a single off-topic thread seldom live long, because their purpose is 
> too specific.)
> 
> —Jens
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Re: other developer lists

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

>>> Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?

I manage the apple-dev.groups.io  site, which 
hosts a number of Apple developer lists including a Cocoa one.

I'd be happy to create a list for these kinds of discussions, if we can come up 
with a suitable title and tag-line. (My experience is that lists created to 
host a single off-topic thread seldom live long, because their purpose is too 
specific.)

—Jens
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev]

You seem to be overlooking the fact that many of these current and past years’ 
videos talk about Cocoa by referencing their constituent components like 
AppKit, MapKit, Collection View, etc. You would benefit greatly by sitting down 
and watching as many of these videos as possible.
--
Gary L. Wade
http://www.garywade.com/

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Turtle Creek Software  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> >> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:
> 
> https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
> https://developer.apple.com/develop/
> 
> Neither of those mention Cocoa at all, just SwiftUI.  Only slight mention of 
> Objective-C in a couple of video descriptions about Clang/LLVM and profiling. 
>  That does seem like a useful prognostication.  Thanks for the links!
> 
> Casey McDermott
> TurtleSoft.com
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:39 AM Gary L. Wade  
> wrote:
>>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
>>> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:
>> 
>> https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
>> https://developer.apple.com/develop/
>> 
>> If you choose to ignore what is available to you, you have no one to blame 
>> but yourself.
>> 
>> Oh, and by the way, if you use DeRez right, the output is very useful.  In 
>> the terminal, type this command:
>> 
>> man DeRez
>> 
>> We’ve said this before, but now it’s definitely time to move on from this 
>> non-related topic.  If you have Cocoa-related questions, please feel free to 
>> submit those.  Otherwise, find another email list.
>> --
>> Gary L. Wade
>> http://www.garywade.com/
>> 
>> 
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

> Either way, the chart you linked to kind of proves my point though.  It
shows that the majority of users are using the latest released OS after
less than a year.

52% (in the case of peak Mojave adoption) is a very slight majority unlike
in iOS where usually 80-90% of users are on the latest versions.

MacOS has already a small market share in the PC world and developing a
product for half of that minority (in the best case) is not really a
logical business decision. Developing with SwiftUI might make sense for iOS
or even Catalyst projects but not for a macOS exclusive product. At least
for the next couple of years.

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 3:08 PM Rob Petrovec  wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:13 PM, Pier Bover  wrote:
>
> > I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.
>
> According to StatCounter Mojave never went above 52% or market share,
> which means at its peak 48% of users were still on previous versions.
>
> https://gs.statcounter.com/macos-version-market-share/desktop/worldwide
>
> I think it will be worse for Catalina. It's anecdotal, but every Mac user
> I know will remain in Mojave or even previous macOS versions for the
> foreseeable future. Also, every audio software developer I know has been
> sending emails to its users to not update to Catalina. Audio forums are
> full of people not being able to use their hardware with Catalina because
> of some driver problem or something else.
>
> Market Share is not necessarily the same as upgrade rates.  Either way,
> the chart you linked to kind of proves my point though.  It shows that the
> majority of users are using the latest released OS after less than a year.
> And at least 25% have adopted Catalina in two months (assuming Catalina is
> listed under “Other”).  Thats pretty quick, IMO.
>
> —Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Rob Petrovec  wrote:
>
>> I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.  Its
>> considerably quicker than you think.  IMS, they announce upgrade rates
>> during public earnings report conference calls typically to brag about how
>> well a new OS is being received by the public over previous releases or
>> competing OSs.
>>
>> re Cocoa being deprecated: I think you have some time.  A lot of
>> apps/components in the OS are written in Obj-C and it is a big undertaking
>> to convert them all.  Not something that can feasibly be done in a year or
>> two.  Remember how long it took Finder to switch from Carbon to Cocoa?  And
>> even then it was half Carbon & half Cocoa.  It took a couple releases for
>> it be all Cocoa.  Not to mention Carbon was officially deprecated in 10.8
>> (back in 2012) and is only now dead in 10.15 (2019).  So I think Cocoa
>> still has a good number of years of life left before it is deprecated and
>> even more years before it is dead.
>>
>> —Rob
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev <
>> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI
>> >
>> > What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?
>> >
>> > I doubt the majority of users will update to Catalina for at least 1-2
>> > years.
>> > ___
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>> >
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:13 PM, Pier Bover  wrote:
> 
> > I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.
> 
> According to StatCounter Mojave never went above 52% or market share, which 
> means at its peak 48% of users were still on previous versions.
> 
> https://gs.statcounter.com/macos-version-market-share/desktop/worldwide 
> 
> 
> I think it will be worse for Catalina. It's anecdotal, but every Mac user I 
> know will remain in Mojave or even previous macOS versions for the 
> foreseeable future. Also, every audio software developer I know has been 
> sending emails to its users to not update to Catalina. Audio forums are full 
> of people not being able to use their hardware with Catalina because of some 
> driver problem or something else.
Market Share is not necessarily the same as upgrade rates.  Either way, 
the chart you linked to kind of proves my point though.  It shows that the 
majority of users are using the latest released OS after less than a year.  And 
at least 25% have adopted Catalina in two months (assuming Catalina is listed 
under “Other”).  Thats pretty quick, IMO.

—Rob


> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Rob Petrovec  > wrote:
> I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.  Its 
> considerably quicker than you think.  IMS, they announce upgrade rates during 
> public earnings report conference calls typically to brag about how well a 
> new OS is being received by the public over previous releases or competing 
> OSs.
> 
> re Cocoa being deprecated: I think you have some time.  A lot of 
> apps/components in the OS are written in Obj-C and it is a big undertaking to 
> convert them all.  Not something that can feasibly be done in a year or two.  
> Remember how long it took Finder to switch from Carbon to Cocoa?  And even 
> then it was half Carbon & half Cocoa.  It took a couple releases for it be 
> all Cocoa.  Not to mention Carbon was officially deprecated in 10.8 (back in 
> 2012) and is only now dead in 10.15 (2019).  So I think Cocoa still has a 
> good number of years of life left before it is deprecated and even more years 
> before it is dead.
> 
> —Rob
> 
> 
> > On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev 
> > mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
> > 
> >> Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI
> > 
> > What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?
> > 
> > I doubt the majority of users will update to Catalina for at least 1-2
> > years.
> > ___
> > 
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> > )
> > 
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> > 
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Re: other developer lists

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

>> Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?

Reddit is a decent place for communities like this.  You can have it in
your feed, or view threads when you feel like it.  Here is what is already
applicable:

r/apple (mostly consumers, 1.2 million members)
r/cpp (C++ theory and practicals, 109K members)
r/cpp_questions (tech help and homework q's, 22K members)
r/iosprogramming (mostly tech, 62K members)
r/macos (mostly consumers, 59K members)
r/macosprogramming (600 members, not very active, The creator is deleted,
and nobody is listed as moderator)
r/objectivec (mostly tech like here, 6K members.  BTW there is a recent
Swift vs ObjC discussion here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ObjectiveC/comments/dtomn2/swift_or_objective_c_for_someone_with_c_background/
)
r/programming (varied, 2.3 million members)
r/swift (mostly tech help, 53K members)
r/swiftui (mostly tech help, 1.6K members)

Most of these subreddits are much more active than cocoa-dev or the new
one.  None are specific for Cocoa dev (r/cocoa is about cacao).  It's easy
to create a subreddit but takes effort to moderate.  I'd be willing to help
if there are a few others.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

> I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.

According to StatCounter Mojave never went above 52% or market share, which
means at its peak 48% of users were still on previous versions.

https://gs.statcounter.com/macos-version-market-share/desktop/worldwide

I think it will be worse for Catalina. It's anecdotal, but every Mac user I
know will remain in Mojave or even previous macOS versions for the
foreseeable future. Also, every audio software developer I know has been
sending emails to its users to not update to Catalina. Audio forums are
full of people not being able to use their hardware with Catalina because
of some driver problem or something else.

> Cocoa being deprecated: I think you have some time.

Probably, but my point is actually about not being able to plan for the
future. Nobody can say for certain if or when Cocoa will be deprecated, in
consequence investing a year or two of dev time in a new Cocoa project
seems very risky.

OTOH investing in a SwiftUI project for macOS is also a bad idea right now
unless one is ready to be an early adopter.

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Rob Petrovec  wrote:

> I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.  Its
> considerably quicker than you think.  IMS, they announce upgrade rates
> during public earnings report conference calls typically to brag about how
> well a new OS is being received by the public over previous releases or
> competing OSs.
>
> re Cocoa being deprecated: I think you have some time.  A lot of
> apps/components in the OS are written in Obj-C and it is a big undertaking
> to convert them all.  Not something that can feasibly be done in a year or
> two.  Remember how long it took Finder to switch from Carbon to Cocoa?  And
> even then it was half Carbon & half Cocoa.  It took a couple releases for
> it be all Cocoa.  Not to mention Carbon was officially deprecated in 10.8
> (back in 2012) and is only now dead in 10.15 (2019).  So I think Cocoa
> still has a good number of years of life left before it is deprecated and
> even more years before it is dead.
>
> —Rob
>
>
> > On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI
> >
> > What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?
> >
> > I doubt the majority of users will update to Catalina for at least 1-2
> > years.
> > ___
> >
> > Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
> >
> > Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
> > Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
> >
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> >
> > This email sent to petr...@mac.com
>
>
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev]

I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about macOS or even iOS update rates.  Its 
considerably quicker than you think.  IMS, they announce upgrade rates during 
public earnings report conference calls typically to brag about how well a new 
OS is being received by the public over previous releases or competing OSs.

re Cocoa being deprecated: I think you have some time.  A lot of 
apps/components in the OS are written in Obj-C and it is a big undertaking to 
convert them all.  Not something that can feasibly be done in a year or two.  
Remember how long it took Finder to switch from Carbon to Cocoa?  And even then 
it was half Carbon & half Cocoa.  It took a couple releases for it be all 
Cocoa.  Not to mention Carbon was officially deprecated in 10.8 (back in 2012) 
and is only now dead in 10.15 (2019).  So I think Cocoa still has a good number 
of years of life left before it is deprecated and even more years before it is 
dead.

—Rob


> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI
> 
> What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?
> 
> I doubt the majority of users will update to Catalina for at least 1-2
> years.
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[James Cicenia via Cocoa-dev]

Well about right in terms of timing if you start architecting / developing now. 
Meanwhile a iPad Pro is pretty sweet for the construction/architecture industry.




> On Nov 14, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Pier Bover  wrote:
> 
> What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?
> 

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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

> Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI

What if you want to support previous macOS versions older than Catalina?

I doubt the majority of users will update to Catalina for at least 1-2
years.
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[James Cicenia via Cocoa-dev]

Well I think the point is to go SwiftUI. Go where the puck is going. Develop 
for iPad Pro and use SwiftUI to gain MacOS too.

I got to believe enough of your business logic is now separated enough from the 
UI.





Regards,


James Cicenia
Founder
James John Group, LLC
 (+1) 773-398-4649    ja...@jjg.llc 

 www.jjg.llc 
 3133 McLin Rd, Saint Joseph. 49085 

Makers of the The Perfect Crypto Currency Hodlr -  INDX01 




> On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:41 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>>> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:
> 
> https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
> https://developer.apple.com/develop/
> 
> Neither of those mention Cocoa at all, just SwiftUI.  Only slight mention
> of Objective-C in a couple of video descriptions about Clang/LLVM and
> profiling.  That does seem like a useful prognostication.  Thanks for the
> links!
> 
> Casey McDermott
> TurtleSoft.com
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:39 AM Gary L. Wade 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
>> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
>> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
>> 
>> 
>> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:
>> 
>> https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
>> https://developer.apple.com/develop/
>> 
>> If you choose to ignore what is available to you, you have no one to blame
>> but yourself.
>> 
>> Oh, and by the way, if you use DeRez right, the output is very useful.  In
>> the terminal, type this command:
>> 
>> man DeRez
>> 
>> We’ve said this before, but now it’s definitely time to move on from this
>> non-related topic.  If you have Cocoa-related questions, please feel free
>> to submit those.  Otherwise, find another email list.
>> --
>> Gary L. Wade
>> http://www.garywade.com/
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

>> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
https://developer.apple.com/develop/

Neither of those mention Cocoa at all, just SwiftUI.  Only slight mention
of Objective-C in a couple of video descriptions about Clang/LLVM and
profiling.  That does seem like a useful prognostication.  Thanks for the
links!

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:39 AM Gary L. Wade 
wrote:

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>
> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
>
>
> Here’s your free advice and prognostications:
>
> https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/
> https://developer.apple.com/develop/
>
> If you choose to ignore what is available to you, you have no one to blame
> but yourself.
>
> Oh, and by the way, if you use DeRez right, the output is very useful.  In
> the terminal, type this command:
>
> man DeRez
>
> We’ve said this before, but now it’s definitely time to move on from this
> non-related topic.  If you have Cocoa-related questions, please feel free
> to submit those.  Otherwise, find another email list.
> --
> Gary L. Wade
> http://www.garywade.com/
>
>
>
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev]

Last year or so, there was much discussion about Apple shutting down many of 
their lists (some did go away, but this one persists).  An external solution 
was found, by some of those list members, although they have been extremely 
quiet in the last year+.  Here's a message from Steve Mills (is he still here - 
hi, Steve!) from earlier this year:
-
Supposedly, these lists are to be done away with at some point. Someone started 
co...@apple-dev.groups.io, which many of us 
have moved to. Or use the annoying and inferior dev 
forums.developer.apple.com.
-

Not sure why some were killed and this still exists, but either way, 
apple-dev.groups.io may be a good place to start?

I would still not say this is the wrong list for much of this recent thread, 
even if it may not be the best list...at some point.

FYI,
-Matt

On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Fulbert Boussaton via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:

I must confess I’m pretty interested by all opinions since these threads 
started (27th of september I think).

Working in the construction industry, as I am, it might help to get interested 
in this and maybe this list is not the ideal vehicle for this kind of 
discussions but nonetheless, all arguments were very enlightening to me.

Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?


Flubb.




On 14 Nov 2019, at 04:32, Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.

Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.


On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

blah blah blah



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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Fulbert Boussaton via Cocoa-dev]

I must confess I’m pretty interested by all opinions since these threads 
started (27th of september I think).

Working in the construction industry, as I am, it might help to get interested 
in this and maybe this list is not the ideal vehicle for this kind of 
discussions but nonetheless, all arguments were very enlightening to me.

Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?


Flubb.



> 
>> On 14 Nov 2019, at 04:32, Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev 
>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.
>> 
>> Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> blah blah blah
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev]

As a mostly silent member for years and years, I agree when the list goes off 
on a complaint tangent (and when it is flagged by moderators, which is rare but 
sometimes necessary), but I have found this Turtle Creek thread quite useful 
and agree with many points, particularly these later ones.  For those who find 
this thread tiring or are happy and able to go with Apple's sometimes 
frustrating flow, please do what I do for those ranting posts and even for most 
of the other threads that are of no interest to me or for which someone always 
already beats me to an (and much better) answer, and merely delete them or 
filter them and visit when you have the time.  This is a rich and diverse 
community, which I appreciate and not just tolerate.  The last thing we need to 
do as fellow devs is alienate or become intolerant of each other.

Otherwise, it's sometimes nice to discuss Cocoa Development -including its own 
history/future- more broadly than just a block/line and an error, and for that, 
I appreciate ALL of your posts and have not found any to need to be put on 
other lists that a moderator has not already flagged (especially when such a 
thread is corrected to get back on relevant track).  Thanks in advance for your 
patience and understanding and to you all for making the Apple ecosystem so 
awesome with app choices even for construction firms - too many people still go 
the Windows-only or VM route and Apple should care about that, and developers 
like Turtle Creek are a part of how that magic happens.

Sincerely,
-Matt

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
>> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
> 
> That is one of my major gripes with Apple. Not only as a dev but also as a
> end user. It's like riding a car in at night and only seeing what's
> immediately in front of you.
> 
> Big software companies like Adobe and Microsoft announce the EOL of their
> products many years in advance. When did Apple announce the EOL for OpenGL
> or 32 bits apps in macOS? 1-2 years before release? One could argue it was
> obvious all along, but often Apple moves in mysterious ways, at least for
> the ones that do not travel to the WWDC or have privileged information.
> 
> There is no way to know where macOS will be 3 years from now and making
> medium or long term decisions is impossible. For example, when will ObjC be
> deprecated? 2 years from now? 10 years from now? If Apple announced openly
> and clearly that it would kill ObjC or Cocoa by 2025 it would be possible
> to make plans. No wonder the only macOS exclusive big developer is Apple
> itself.
> 
> I was planning to work on a desktop product for macOS during 2020 but I
> will hold on for a couple of years.
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.

That is one of my major gripes with Apple. Not only as a dev but also as a
end user. It's like riding a car in at night and only seeing what's
immediately in front of you.

Big software companies like Adobe and Microsoft announce the EOL of their
products many years in advance. When did Apple announce the EOL for OpenGL
or 32 bits apps in macOS? 1-2 years before release? One could argue it was
obvious all along, but often Apple moves in mysterious ways, at least for
the ones that do not travel to the WWDC or have privileged information.

There is no way to know where macOS will be 3 years from now and making
medium or long term decisions is impossible. For example, when will ObjC be
deprecated? 2 years from now? 10 years from now? If Apple announced openly
and clearly that it would kill ObjC or Cocoa by 2025 it would be possible
to make plans. No wonder the only macOS exclusive big developer is Apple
itself.

I was planning to work on a desktop product for macOS during 2020 but I
will hold on for a couple of years.
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
> 


Here’s your free advice and prognostications:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc2019/ 

https://developer.apple.com/develop/ 

If you choose to ignore what is available to you, you have no one to blame but 
yourself.

Oh, and by the way, if you use DeRez right, the output is very useful.  In the 
terminal, type this command:

man DeRez

We’ve said this before, but now it’s definitely time to move on from this 
non-related topic.  If you have Cocoa-related questions, please feel free to 
submit those.  Otherwise, find another email list.
--
Gary L. Wade
http://www.garywade.com/ 


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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

>> The longer you wait, the closer the train is to the edge of the cliff.

Correct.  But what we have learned from many years with Apple is that some
of those cliffs disappear before you get close, or they just turn into
bumps.  Waiting til 2014 rather than 2004 meant using much better versions
of Xcode.  We skipped manual ref-counting entirely, and several older
constraint systems. Probably other BS that we never even knew about.  There
have been all sorts of innovations that were deprecated a few years later.
Sometimes "just in time" is better.

I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

Yes, we use derez for the Windows app (still running in MS DOS!)   It
flattens resources, but doesn't make them easy to parse or maintain.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 10:02 AM Glenn L. Austin 
wrote:

> > On Nov 14, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >
> > Convert resources from ResEdit
> >>> DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?
> >
> > Dude.  Why would we change them before it was necessary?  Don't fix it if
> > it ain't broke.  There were better things to work on in the past 20
> years.
> >
> > We wrote code to go through each type of resource and convert them to
> XML.
> > Then that turned out to be a huge PITA to maintain, so we revised it to
> tab
> > text.  Easy to revise in Excel and 10x faster to load.
> >
> > My question is, why on earth didn't Apple provide a conversion tool like
> > that?  It would have saved thousands of developers from having to write
> > their own resource translators or do it by hand.
> >
> > Casey McDermott
> > TurtleSoft.com
>
> They did. It's called derez. It's still available on Catalina.
>
> --
> Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver <><
> 
>
>
>
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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev]

Not to create a conflict, but I like to think about it this way.  I had to do 
it with my parents as they approached their elderly years and we have to do it 
whenever the next version of Swift and Xcode come out. 

A train is moving to a cliff.  The cliff is far away but eventually, if you do 
nothing, the train is going straight off the cliff.

We know it's coming.  You’re faced with one option an other.  The longer you 
wait, the closer the train is to the edge of the cliff.

It’s a business reality that we all face in one form or another.

If I ignored the business realities facing me 20 years ago, I’d still be 
programming in Lingo and waiting for someone to give me a contract to build a 
Shockwave app.

Hopefully there is still time divert the train.  Best of luck.

Alex

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Turtle Creek Software  
> wrote:
> 
> >> >> Convert resources from ResEdit 
> >> DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?
> 
> Dude.  Why would we change them before it was necessary?  Don't fix it if it 
> ain't broke.  There were better things to work on in the past 20 years.
> 
> We wrote code to go through each type of resource and convert them to XML. 
> Then that turned out to be a huge PITA to maintain, so we revised it to tab 
> text.  Easy to revise in Excel and 10x faster to load. 
> 
> My question is, why on earth didn't Apple provide a conversion tool like 
> that?  It would have saved thousands of developers from having to write their 
> own resource translators or do it by hand. 
> 
> Casey McDermott
> TurtleSoft.com
> 
> 

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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Convert resources from ResEdit
>>> DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?
> 
> Dude.  Why would we change them before it was necessary?  Don't fix it if
> it ain't broke.  There were better things to work on in the past 20 years.
> 
> We wrote code to go through each type of resource and convert them to XML.
> Then that turned out to be a huge PITA to maintain, so we revised it to tab
> text.  Easy to revise in Excel and 10x faster to load.
> 
> My question is, why on earth didn't Apple provide a conversion tool like
> that?  It would have saved thousands of developers from having to write
> their own resource translators or do it by hand.
> 
> Casey McDermott
> TurtleSoft.com

They did. It's called derez. It's still available on Catalina.

-- 
Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver <><



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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

>> >> Convert resources from ResEdit
>> DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?

Dude.  Why would we change them before it was necessary?  Don't fix it if
it ain't broke.  There were better things to work on in the past 20 years.

We wrote code to go through each type of resource and convert them to XML.
Then that turned out to be a huge PITA to maintain, so we revised it to tab
text.  Easy to revise in Excel and 10x faster to load.

My question is, why on earth didn't Apple provide a conversion tool like
that?  It would have saved thousands of developers from having to write
their own resource translators or do it by hand.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> Phil mentioned to me in about 1996, 1997 back at Macromedia that it was the 
> goal for Apple to turn computers into the equivalent o kitchen appliances.  
> You won’t upgrade your 

Maybe the metaphor was more referring to the ease-of-use or the market 
proliferation.

The metaphors certainly have changed , because today, the home computer, 
together with all the other devices , must be considered as kind of an IT 
ecosystem,
and, in my impression, Apple was the first company to realize that.


Best regards, Gabriel


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