[CODE4LIB] Zoia Horn - RIP
From her family: Zoia died on July 12th, Saturday, around 7 am. She was in hospice and her family was with her. I'll do the sad update to her wikipedia page. kc -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia Horn - RIP
Thanks for sharing this Karen. What an amazing Librarian and crusader! On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: From her family: Zoia died on July 12th, Saturday, around 7 am. She was in hospice and her family was with her. I'll do the sad update to her wikipedia page. kc -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet -- Robin L. Chandler Associate University Librarian, Collections Library Information Services University of California, Santa Cruz University Library rlcha...@ucsc.edu chand...@ucsc.edu 831.459.4212
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
After further thought, I'm uncomfortable with the word uncomfortable, and I regret using it. In fact, it doesn't appear in the anti-harrassment policy at all. I think the essence of the policy is to provide a safe and non-threatening space. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not committed to creating a comfortable space, at least based on any vague definition of comfort. Discomfort is often where dialogue and learning occur. PHP developers will not feel comfortable when many of the top talkers are Ruby enthusiasts. Do we ask them to stop when they curse PHP, or perceive they are wrongly discriminating against it? No. We challenge their assumptions and learn about the differences, or we see it for a religious war timesuck and don't participate. I see no way for Code4Lib to regulate comfort, and doing so would lessen the value it provides. If there is something someone says or does that is unacceptable to me, I calmly let them know how I feel and why. It's unrealistic to expect any behavior to change if you don't take the responsibility to address it when and where it happens. Karen, you bring up a good point when you ask about interpretation and enforcement of the policy, should someone be personally attacked or harassed on the basis of gender, race, age, etc. How does anyone know whether the anti-harrassment policy, or which revision, has actually been adopted and accepted by the group? Because no one has objected? Because it's under github/code4lib? There's only a handful of signatures on it. How are revisions proposed and made? Sure, someone can submit changes, but they are only merged with the consent/approval of the github admin(s) -- and none of this is done on list because it's a separate system that has way more usable tools for discussing proposed changes. That puts the admins in the precarious role of deciding what gets in or not -- essentially a role of governance that they may not have asked for. It can also lead to the perception that changes are made behind closed doors if revisions are not first proposed to and debated on the list. Is that an acceptable process? Any group decision in the past has been done via diebold-o-tron. Do we need a vote to ratify the anti-harrassment policy and an appropriate process for changes? -Shaun On 1/23/13 7:12 PM, Fitchett, Deborah wrote: Shaun: and yet when people spoke up on this mailing list about not being comfortable with Zoia, part of the response included people telling them essentially you're spoiling our fun. It wasn't the only response, and I do note that things seem to be moving to reforming Zoia, which contributes to this group feeling pretty good on the whole. But it was still a *noticeable* response, so messages implying that current culture/procedures are sufficient without continuing discussion seem premature. Deborah -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaun Ellis Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013 5:00 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia Karen, yes, there is a procedure for dealing with speaking up: // Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately. If a participant engages in harassing behavior, organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender, expulsion from the Code4Lib event, or banning the offender from a chatroom or mailing list. // [1] It's easier to sense someone's discomfort in person. But in IRC, there's no way to tell and the issue can only be addressed if someone speaks up. [1] https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md -Shaun On 1/23/13 10:28 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Speak up only works if the speaker is treated with respect. If, instead, the speaker is assailed with a litany of you shouldn't think that and you're spoiling our fun, then I doubt if you will get many speakers. There needs to be a procedure for dealing with speaking up that doesn't resemble a public drubbing. Until that is added into the policy, the policy itself is a false promise and likely to make things worse for anyone speaking up, rather than better. kc On 1/23/13 5:21 AM, Shaun Ellis wrote: Isn't this why we have an anti-harrassment policy? Why not hold zoia (and all bots) accountable to the code of conduct like everyone else? If zoia says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then speak up and we will take appropriate measures by removing the plugin or removing that response from the data set. Let's not over-think it. -Shaun On 1/22/13 10:56 PM, Bill Dueber wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Any group decision in the past has been done via diebold-o-tron. No, this is not true, that any group decision has been done via online vote. Or it's true only in the sense that one only considers it a 'group decision' if it was done by online vote. The ONLY decisions that have been done by online vote are about the conference, and specifically: which presentations to include on the program, which keynote speakers are preferred, and which hosting proposal gets the conference. To my knowledge, no other decision about code4lib has ever been made by online vote. I suppose you could say that this means that no other 'group decisions' have ever been made, and yet still a healthy (?) community was formed, which many have found rewarding to participate in, and which some find so valuable that they think it's worth spending their time on improving it. Just don't improve it into something that's no longer what people found rewarding and valuable in the first place, maybe.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: Any group decision in the past has been done via diebold-o-tron. No, this is not true, that any group decision has been done via online vote. Or it's true only in the sense that one only considers it a 'group decision' if it was done by online vote. [..snip..] To my knowledge, no other decision about code4lib has ever been made by online vote. More to the point, no other decision about code4lib in terms of action or policy has been made ever. This is new territory for us. Mark
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark A. Matienzo mark.matie...@gmail.com wrote: More to the point, no other decision about code4lib in terms of action or policy has been made ever. This is new territory for us. It's not really that new. We've voted on tshirts, logos, and whether or not to have jobs.code4lib.org post here--perhaps other things that I'm forgetting. I'm not saying we need to vote on the anti-harassment policy to make it real--it's already real. Not everyone may respect it, but hopefully we'll all continue being nice people and won't have to worry about enforcing it. It's hard to imagine anyone being against it. Personally, I find it regrettable that it's even necessary, but it is what it is. Voting can be a nice way of testing the waters for something. I found the survey on the jobs.code4lib.org email posting very helpful. But voting on everything would get very tedious, and boring very quickly I imagine. code4lib has always seemed much more freeform than that to me. I really liked Bethany's description of lazy consensus [1] at the last conference. //Ed [1] http://nowviskie.org/2012/lazy-consensus/
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
The bottom line is that, technically, code4lib does not, AKAIK, exist. It's one piece of property, the domain name is in your name. Everything else is donated or lent. Code4lib has no formal governance. It is more like a clique than an organization. The question of whether we want to adopt formal organization and governance has been raised often over the years, and it seems to be as effective in emptying rooms as craft beers are for filling them. Since we don't exist, we can't do anything. We can collectively come up with a policy, but we have no status to enforce that policy. Like a clique, it really comes down to convincing everyone that you are a cool kid, and you are committing to a policy, so everyone else who wants to be cool should do so as well. This can work, except for the goths. Cary On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ed Summers e...@pobox.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark A. Matienzo mark.matie...@gmail.com wrote: More to the point, no other decision about code4lib in terms of action or policy has been made ever. This is new territory for us. It's not really that new. We've voted on tshirts, logos, and whether or not to have jobs.code4lib.org post here--perhaps other things that I'm forgetting. I'm not saying we need to vote on the anti-harassment policy to make it real--it's already real. Not everyone may respect it, but hopefully we'll all continue being nice people and won't have to worry about enforcing it. It's hard to imagine anyone being against it. Personally, I find it regrettable that it's even necessary, but it is what it is. Voting can be a nice way of testing the waters for something. I found the survey on the jobs.code4lib.org email posting very helpful. But voting on everything would get very tedious, and boring very quickly I imagine. code4lib has always seemed much more freeform than that to me. I really liked Bethany's description of lazy consensus [1] at the last conference. //Ed [1] http://nowviskie.org/2012/lazy-consensus/ -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Determining whether action should be taken on harassment should not be based on a popularity contest. That would be a fail, and that's what Karen is right to point out. No one is suggesting that Code4Lib needs to develop a governance system or that there need to be any future rules. We just need to determine that there is agreement that this one policy is something we can all abide by in this nonexistent space to make sure it's safe and non-threatening non-space -- it's on us to make sure it goes far enough, but not too far that it changes things for the worse. Otherwise, there will continue to be ambiguity and people will spend time in continuous debate when we could be playing and creating cool stuff instead. -Shaun On 1/24/13 3:17 PM, Cary Gordon wrote: The bottom line is that, technically, code4lib does not, AKAIK, exist. It's one piece of property, the domain name is in your name. Everything else is donated or lent. Code4lib has no formal governance. It is more like a clique than an organization. The question of whether we want to adopt formal organization and governance has been raised often over the years, and it seems to be as effective in emptying rooms as craft beers are for filling them. Since we don't exist, we can't do anything. We can collectively come up with a policy, but we have no status to enforce that policy. Like a clique, it really comes down to convincing everyone that you are a cool kid, and you are committing to a policy, so everyone else who wants to be cool should do so as well. This can work, except for the goths. Cary On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ed Summers e...@pobox.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark A. Matienzo mark.matie...@gmail.com wrote: More to the point, no other decision about code4lib in terms of action or policy has been made ever. This is new territory for us. It's not really that new. We've voted on tshirts, logos, and whether or not to have jobs.code4lib.org post here--perhaps other things that I'm forgetting. I'm not saying we need to vote on the anti-harassment policy to make it real--it's already real. Not everyone may respect it, but hopefully we'll all continue being nice people and won't have to worry about enforcing it. It's hard to imagine anyone being against it. Personally, I find it regrettable that it's even necessary, but it is what it is. Voting can be a nice way of testing the waters for something. I found the survey on the jobs.code4lib.org email posting very helpful. But voting on everything would get very tedious, and boring very quickly I imagine. code4lib has always seemed much more freeform than that to me. I really liked Bethany's description of lazy consensus [1] at the last conference. //Ed [1] http://nowviskie.org/2012/lazy-consensus/ -- Shaun Ellis User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Shaun Ellis sha...@princeton.edu wrote: Determining whether action should be taken on harassment should not be based on a popularity contest. That would be a fail, and that's what Karen is right to point out. I added ABSTENTIONS.txt and OPPOSERS.txt to the anti-harassment github repository [1] to supplement the SUPPORTERS.txt, for people who want to record their particular view on this issue. If you want to record your view you can fork the repository, add your name to the appropriate file, and send a pull request. Perhaps that's good enough for now? I don't disagree that ambiguity around this issue is problematic, but I also think that trying to remove all ambiguity from it maybe prove to be difficult, and damaging. //Ed [1] https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Isn't this why we have an anti-harrassment policy? Why not hold zoia (and all bots) accountable to the code of conduct like everyone else? If zoia says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then speak up and we will take appropriate measures by removing the plugin or removing that response from the data set. Let's not over-think it. -Shaun On 1/22/13 10:56 PM, Bill Dueber wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really-quite-mean AI from the games Portal and Portal2] On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.uswrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda -- Shaun Ellis User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Speak up only works if the speaker is treated with respect. If, instead, the speaker is assailed with a litany of you shouldn't think that and you're spoiling our fun, then I doubt if you will get many speakers. There needs to be a procedure for dealing with speaking up that doesn't resemble a public drubbing. Until that is added into the policy, the policy itself is a false promise and likely to make things worse for anyone speaking up, rather than better. kc On 1/23/13 5:21 AM, Shaun Ellis wrote: Isn't this why we have an anti-harrassment policy? Why not hold zoia (and all bots) accountable to the code of conduct like everyone else? If zoia says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then speak up and we will take appropriate measures by removing the plugin or removing that response from the data set. Let's not over-think it. -Shaun On 1/22/13 10:56 PM, Bill Dueber wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really-quite-mean AI from the games Portal and Portal2] On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.uswrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Karen, yes, there is a procedure for dealing with speaking up: // Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately. If a participant engages in harassing behavior, organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender, expulsion from the Code4Lib event, or banning the offender from a chatroom or mailing list. // [1] It's easier to sense someone's discomfort in person. But in IRC, there's no way to tell and the issue can only be addressed if someone speaks up. [1] https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md -Shaun On 1/23/13 10:28 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Speak up only works if the speaker is treated with respect. If, instead, the speaker is assailed with a litany of you shouldn't think that and you're spoiling our fun, then I doubt if you will get many speakers. There needs to be a procedure for dealing with speaking up that doesn't resemble a public drubbing. Until that is added into the policy, the policy itself is a false promise and likely to make things worse for anyone speaking up, rather than better. kc On 1/23/13 5:21 AM, Shaun Ellis wrote: Isn't this why we have an anti-harrassment policy? Why not hold zoia (and all bots) accountable to the code of conduct like everyone else? If zoia says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then speak up and we will take appropriate measures by removing the plugin or removing that response from the data set. Let's not over-think it. -Shaun On 1/22/13 10:56 PM, Bill Dueber wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really-quite-mean AI from the games Portal and Portal2] On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.uswrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda -- Shaun Ellis User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Shaun: and yet when people spoke up on this mailing list about not being comfortable with Zoia, part of the response included people telling them essentially you're spoiling our fun. It wasn't the only response, and I do note that things seem to be moving to reforming Zoia, which contributes to this group feeling pretty good on the whole. But it was still a *noticeable* response, so messages implying that current culture/procedures are sufficient without continuing discussion seem premature. Deborah -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaun Ellis Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013 5:00 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia Karen, yes, there is a procedure for dealing with speaking up: // Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately. If a participant engages in harassing behavior, organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender, expulsion from the Code4Lib event, or banning the offender from a chatroom or mailing list. // [1] It's easier to sense someone's discomfort in person. But in IRC, there's no way to tell and the issue can only be addressed if someone speaks up. [1] https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md -Shaun On 1/23/13 10:28 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Speak up only works if the speaker is treated with respect. If, instead, the speaker is assailed with a litany of you shouldn't think that and you're spoiling our fun, then I doubt if you will get many speakers. There needs to be a procedure for dealing with speaking up that doesn't resemble a public drubbing. Until that is added into the policy, the policy itself is a false promise and likely to make things worse for anyone speaking up, rather than better. kc On 1/23/13 5:21 AM, Shaun Ellis wrote: Isn't this why we have an anti-harrassment policy? Why not hold zoia (and all bots) accountable to the code of conduct like everyone else? If zoia says something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then speak up and we will take appropriate measures by removing the plugin or removing that response from the data set. Let's not over-think it. -Shaun On 1/22/13 10:56 PM, Bill Dueber wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really-quite-mean AI from the games Portal and Portal2] On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.uswrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda -- Shaun Ellis User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University Library P Please consider the environment before you print this email. The contents of this e-mail (including any attachments) may be confidential and/or subject to copyright. Any unauthorised use, distribution, or copying of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender by return e-mail or telephone and then delete this e-mail together with all attachments from your
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
In every noisy forum that I participate in (BTW, none of them are tech or even work related), there are always people who dislike the noise. The concerns are analogous to the ones expressed here -- irritation factor, it keeps people away, it's all about the in crowd, etc. Likewise, the proposed solutions are similar to ones that have been floated here like directing the noisemaking from the main group elsewhere or silencing it. For things to work, everyone needs a reason to be there. People with less experience need access to those who have been around the block. But a diet of repetitive shop talk isn't very interesting for people who have a decent handle on what they're doing. They need something else to keep them there, and in the final analysis, many come for entertainment -- this normally manifests itself in the form of high noise levels. But even if people spend the vast bulk of the time playing around, nuggets of wisdom are shared. And if something's truly serious, it gets attention. It's far better to help people learn to tune out what they don't like, and this is much easier to do in c4l than in communities where interaction is primarily physical. All communities have their own character and communication norms. It's important for people to be mindful of the environment they're helping create, but reducing communication to help avoid exposing people to annoyances screws things up. In all honesty, I think the silliness on the sidelines is far more important than the formal stuff. I know I learn a lot more while goofing off than in formal channels for pretty much everything I do. kyle On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: On 1/18/13 11:30 AM, Andromeda Yelton wrote: I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) Having read through the c4l IRC FAQ (which has maybe a dozen Zoia commands) and later been pointed to the github hub for the plugins, I would say that Zoia is very complex and quite under-documented. For example, nowhere could I find the @mf plugin -- and then found out that the commands and plugin names are not always the same. While python isn't the worst language to read, reading code isn't the greatest way to make things understandable -- especially when we've agreed that one doesn't have to be a coder to be included in c4l. The zoia bot in c4l IRC strikes me as being a type of adventure game where you have to pass certain milestones to gain more power. I think that is very appealing to lots of folks. Unfortunately I don't think that it's going to be possible to have this tight c4l culture based around irc and also be broadly inclusive. In fact, that isn't the case today. As I said to someone offline, if you want the classical music folks to join your music channel but you primarily play heavy metal, it's just not going to work. So maybe trying to make c4l IRC everything to everybody isn't a feasible goal. You may have noticed (although it has been unremarked) that a larger number of men have listed zoia-play as a reason they do not hang out in c4l irc than women (1, me). So there are those who love it, and those who find it annoying. That's fine. But it does leave c4l with a kind of a dilemma -- try to make everyone happy? Or accept that the irc channel and its particular flavor may not be as inclusive as the community would like it to be. This would mean not seeing the c4l irc as a primary community space but as a particular flavor of the community space, and taking pains to make sure that c4l IRC is not billed as or treated as the main stage for c4l and those who do not hang out in the channel should not be viewed as non-participants in c4l (and I think they are not). However, by doing so we do lose the one central go-to place for quick questions when you're stuck in some technology nightmare. Some of that takes place on the list, but sometimes you want to find a real person and do a quick back-and-forth. This isn't an easy situation, and we might want to discuss it more at the conference. If the folks who aren't into the IRC banter aren't missing anything, then there's not really a problem. If, however, there is a desire to gather c4l-ers around the IRC channel (and there seemed to be when we proposed a channel for women, which was seen as splintering the community, then we have some negotiating to do. kc But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:38 AM,
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
While I agree that the nature of IRC is pretty much open to all kinds of behavior, good, and less good, zoia is a shadow character that often seems to serve as a jerk by proxy. If someone has to be a jerk, let them be a jerk, not program a bot to be a jerk on their behalf. Now that I have used the word jerk four times and explained what proxy means to a group of library professionals, I am taking the rest of the day off. Cary On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Michael J. Giarlo leftw...@alumni.rutgers.edu wrote: You need a plugin to pronounce that. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Andreas Orphanides akorp...@ncsu.eduwrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Gabriel Farrell gsf...@gmail.com wrote: I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). ... How exactly do you pronounce that? -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
If anyone feels like sorting through the Quote, Dunno, Blame, Disclaimer, LoveHate, Praise, Sarge, and/or Tantrum databases to weed out potentially off-putting materials, I can extract and email them. They're flat-file DBs, and pretty easy to read through quickly. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Esmé Cowles escow...@ucsd.edu wrote: I personally regard the IRC channel as a particular flavor of c4l, rather than the primary flavor. For example, this discussion is happening on the mailing list and not in the IRC channel. I'd say IRC is one of the main flavors, but I'm not sure I would call anything primary. I really like zoia, and find the channel to be a very good complement to the conference. But I really don't hang out in IRC, and I think many people who read the mailing list and/or attend events don't either. Regarding people being comfortable with participating in the IRC channel, I think you can't please everyone. If you stop all the messing around with zoia because some people find it frivolous and irritating, then other people will think the channel has gotten too stuffy and serious. So I think it's important to keep focused on what is alienating to a large fraction of the community. -Esme -- Esme Cowles escow...@ucsd.edu Information wants to be anthropomorphized. -- /. sig On 01/18/2013, at 3:47 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: This would mean not seeing the c4l irc as a primary community space but as a particular flavor of the community space, and taking pains to make sure that c4l IRC is not billed as or treated as the main stage for c4l and those who do not hang out in the channel should not be viewed as non-participants in c4l (and I think they are not). However, by doing so we do lose the one central go-to place for quick questions when you're stuck in some technology nightmare. Some of that takes place on the list, but sometimes you want to find a real person and do a quick back-and-forth.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Kyle Banerjee kyle.baner...@gmail.com wrote: In every noisy forum that I participate in (BTW, none of them are tech or even work related), there are always people who dislike the noise. The concerns are analogous to the ones expressed here -- irritation factor, it keeps people away, it's all about the in crowd, etc. Likewise, the proposed solutions are similar to ones that have been floated here like directing the noisemaking from the main group elsewhere or silencing it. For things to work, everyone needs a reason to be there. People with less experience need access to those who have been around the block. But a diet of repetitive shop talk isn't very interesting for people who have a decent handle on what they're doing. They need something else to keep them there, and in the final analysis, many come for entertainment -- this normally manifests itself in the form of high noise levels. But even if people spend the vast bulk of the time playing around, nuggets of wisdom are shared. And if something's truly serious, it gets attention. It's far better to help people learn to tune out what they don't like, and this is much easier to do in c4l than in communities where interaction is primarily physical. All communities have their own character and communication norms. It's important for people to be mindful of the environment they're helping create, but reducing communication to help avoid exposing people to annoyances screws things up. In all honesty, I think the silliness on the sidelines is far more important than the formal stuff. I know I learn a lot more while goofing off than in formal channels for pretty much everything I do. kyle +1 I'm all for removing specific offended responses and commands as some others have suggested, but I agree trying to remove some of the lighter stuff will in the long term, be more likely to be detrimental then a positive.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
I agree with Ed. Thanks to whoever removed the 'poledance' plugin (REALLY? that existed? if it makes you feel any better, I don't think anyone who hangs out in #code4lib even knew it existed, and it never got used). It's certainly possible that there are or will be other individual features that are, well, just plain rude and offensive, and should be removed. But in general, I think it would be a HUGE mistake to think that all personality, frivolity, or 'subcultural' elements should be removed from all things #code4lib in the name of 'accessiblity'. Whatever it is about code4lib that has made it 'succesful' -- is in large part due to the fact that it IS a social community with cultural features. If you try to remove all those, you are removing what makes code4lib what it is, you are removing whatever you liked about it in the first place. If you want online or offline venues that are all-business-all-the-time with no social subcultural aspects, there are plenty of others already, you don't need to make code4lib into one. If you find those plenty of others not as useful or rewarding as code4lib -- well, I suggest the reason for that has a lot to do with the social community aspects of code4lib. YES, the social subcultural aspects WILL turn some people off, it's true, but by trying to remove them, you wind up with something that doesn't rub people the wrong way and doens't rub anyone the right way either. On 1/22/2013 1:25 PM, Edward M. Corrado wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Kyle Banerjee kyle.baner...@gmail.com wrote: In every noisy forum that I participate in (BTW, none of them are tech or even work related), there are always people who dislike the noise. The concerns are analogous to the ones expressed here -- irritation factor, it keeps people away, it's all about the in crowd, etc. Likewise, the proposed solutions are similar to ones that have been floated here like directing the noisemaking from the main group elsewhere or silencing it. For things to work, everyone needs a reason to be there. People with less experience need access to those who have been around the block. But a diet of repetitive shop talk isn't very interesting for people who have a decent handle on what they're doing. They need something else to keep them there, and in the final analysis, many come for entertainment -- this normally manifests itself in the form of high noise levels. But even if people spend the vast bulk of the time playing around, nuggets of wisdom are shared. And if something's truly serious, it gets attention. It's far better to help people learn to tune out what they don't like, and this is much easier to do in c4l than in communities where interaction is primarily physical. All communities have their own character and communication norms. It's important for people to be mindful of the environment they're helping create, but reducing communication to help avoid exposing people to annoyances screws things up. In all honesty, I think the silliness on the sidelines is far more important than the formal stuff. I know I learn a lot more while goofing off than in formal channels for pretty much everything I do. kyle +1 I'm all for removing specific offended responses and commands as some others have suggested, but I agree trying to remove some of the lighter stuff will in the long term, be more likely to be detrimental then a positive.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
It should be noted that @poledance really was originally named @rsinger. See * https://github.com/code4lib/supybot-plugins/commit/7ae336cc37a7bbd41e4899f1ca90fb43b12acf46 * and https://github.com/code4lib/supybot-plugins/commit/90e7d0f2bbb5f8a30c43a6177fb3d4eb7bcb46b1 . On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: I agree with Ed. Thanks to whoever removed the 'poledance' plugin (REALLY? that existed? if it makes you feel any better, I don't think anyone who hangs out in #code4lib even knew it existed, and it never got used). It's certainly possible that there are or will be other individual features that are, well, just plain rude and offensive, and should be removed. But in general, I think it would be a HUGE mistake to think that all personality, frivolity, or 'subcultural' elements should be removed from all things #code4lib in the name of 'accessiblity'. Whatever it is about code4lib that has made it 'succesful' -- is in large part due to the fact that it IS a social community with cultural features. If you try to remove all those, you are removing what makes code4lib what it is, you are removing whatever you liked about it in the first place. If you want online or offline venues that are all-business-all-the-time with no social subcultural aspects, there are plenty of others already, you don't need to make code4lib into one. If you find those plenty of others not as useful or rewarding as code4lib -- well, I suggest the reason for that has a lot to do with the social community aspects of code4lib. YES, the social subcultural aspects WILL turn some people off, it's true, but by trying to remove them, you wind up with something that doesn't rub people the wrong way and doens't rub anyone the right way either. On 1/22/2013 1:25 PM, Edward M. Corrado wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Kyle Banerjee kyle.baner...@gmail.com wrote: In every noisy forum that I participate in (BTW, none of them are tech or even work related), there are always people who dislike the noise. The concerns are analogous to the ones expressed here -- irritation factor, it keeps people away, it's all about the in crowd, etc. Likewise, the proposed solutions are similar to ones that have been floated here like directing the noisemaking from the main group elsewhere or silencing it. For things to work, everyone needs a reason to be there. People with less experience need access to those who have been around the block. But a diet of repetitive shop talk isn't very interesting for people who have a decent handle on what they're doing. They need something else to keep them there, and in the final analysis, many come for entertainment -- this normally manifests itself in the form of high noise levels. But even if people spend the vast bulk of the time playing around, nuggets of wisdom are shared. And if something's truly serious, it gets attention. It's far better to help people learn to tune out what they don't like, and this is much easier to do in c4l than in communities where interaction is primarily physical. All communities have their own character and communication norms. It's important for people to be mindful of the environment they're helping create, but reducing communication to help avoid exposing people to annoyances screws things up. In all honesty, I think the silliness on the sidelines is far more important than the formal stuff. I know I learn a lot more while goofing off than in formal channels for pretty much everything I do. kyle +1 I'm all for removing specific offended responses and commands as some others have suggested, but I agree trying to remove some of the lighter stuff will in the long term, be more likely to be detrimental then a positive.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: Thanks to whoever removed the 'poledance' plugin (REALLY? that existed? if it makes you feel any better, I don't think anyone who hangs out in #code4lib even knew it existed, and it never got used). I knew it existed, and I even invoked it a few times. Although, If this war on humor keeps up, I'm unlikely to hang out in #code4lib much longer. //Ed PS. I really didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.us wrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? I'm in. We've both said things you're going to regret. [GLaDOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glados is the really-quite-mean AI from the games Portal and Portal2] On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Genny Engel gen...@sonoma.lib.ca.uswrote: Guess there's no groundswell of support for firing Zoia and replacing her/it with a GLaDOS irc bot, then? *Sigh.* Genny Engel -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andromeda Yelton Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of Michigan Library
[CODE4LIB] Zoia
... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? Could this have any relation to the felt need to create #libtechwomen? kc -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? There's actually two different but closely related issues: 1) Plugins that generate a lot of information/responses which have been a problem as they can interrupt flow of questions/discussions during the conference. @blockparty lists what songs people are playing that have registered their irc nick scrobble. It produces a lot of lines and a couple of calls can cause people's screens to scroll-off. Not a problem with the normal traffic in the room, but when going from maybe 20/30 active participants to hundreds it can be an issue. There's probably some others like @google or @naf with a long response that could be disabled as well. @naf is a nice one for demonstrating zoia, but @marc is pretty compact and also wonderfully library-centric ;). 2) Plugins that are crude/offensive like @mf and the urban dictionary one. I think the thread kicked off with the first one, but I think it rapidly brought in the issue of the latter. I'm in agreement that the latter category probably should be just removed. The first category probably would be useful to disable during the conference but to have. Jon Gorman
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc On 1/18/13 8:20 AM, Jon Gorman wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? There's actually two different but closely related issues: 1) Plugins that generate a lot of information/responses which have been a problem as they can interrupt flow of questions/discussions during the conference. @blockparty lists what songs people are playing that have registered their irc nick scrobble. It produces a lot of lines and a couple of calls can cause people's screens to scroll-off. Not a problem with the normal traffic in the room, but when going from maybe 20/30 active participants to hundreds it can be an issue. There's probably some others like @google or @naf with a long response that could be disabled as well. @naf is a nice one for demonstrating zoia, but @marc is pretty compact and also wonderfully library-centric ;). 2) Plugins that are crude/offensive like @mf and the urban dictionary one. I think the thread kicked off with the first one, but I think it rapidly brought in the issue of the latter. I'm in agreement that the latter category probably should be just removed. The first category probably would be useful to disable during the conference but to have. Jon Gorman -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. I think you're reading too much into Zoia's gender here. As Ross said, the previous bot was named panizzi (Anthony Panizzi). The names have just been picked from famous library folks. I don't imagine anyone would have a problem finding a famous male librarian to rename the bot to, though. I don't think there is anything to read into the gender of the bot here. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. Would you object to a male name? I don't think playing with a bot is a bad thing. I've played with real people in the room in the same way. The nice thing about a bot is that you know you'll get a response (whereas rsinger might just ignore me). As I said, I think you're reading too much into the bot's gender in this case, but I can't imagine anyone would have qualms about renaming the bot to a male name. The name is pretty inconsequential; it was just meant as a tribute to famous folks in our field. Kevin
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On 13-01-18 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. I think you're reading too much into the zoia's (implicitly) gendered name. zoia's precursor, panizzi, was implicitly male but functioned in the same way zoia does. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. I would strongly disagree with this point. As a code4lib newbie a year ago, I found that zoia was a kind of participatory in-joke that made it *easier* for me to acclimatize to the culture of the room. I became comfortable more quickly thanks to zoia. And, as I've mentioned on IRC, I see zoia as being a manifestation of the code4lib spirit itself - a collaboratively-maintained collection of plugins by members of the community. Could the more offensive elements of zoia be reined in? Certainly. But I would find it very unfortunate to remove zoia altogether. Misty (As aLways, opinions are mine, not my employers', c.) On 1/18/13 8:20 AM, Jon Gorman wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? There's actually two different but closely related issues: 1) Plugins that generate a lot of information/responses which have been a problem as they can interrupt flow of questions/discussions during the conference. @blockparty lists what songs people are playing that have registered their irc nick scrobble. It produces a lot of lines and a couple of calls can cause people's screens to scroll-off. Not a problem with the normal traffic in the room, but when going from maybe 20/30 active participants to hundreds it can be an issue. There's probably some others like @google or @naf with a long response that could be disabled as well. @naf is a nice one for demonstrating zoia, but @marc is pretty compact and also wonderfully library-centric ;). 2) Plugins that are crude/offensive like @mf and the urban dictionary one. I think the thread kicked off with the first one, but I think it rapidly brought in the issue of the latter. I'm in agreement that the latter category probably should be just removed. The first category probably would be useful to disable during the conference but to have. Jon Gorman -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Yes, I believe zoia was named as a tribute to Zoia Horn, FWIW. -Mike On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Kevin S. Clarke kscla...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. I think you're reading too much into Zoia's gender here. As Ross said, the previous bot was named panizzi (Anthony Panizzi). The names have just been picked from famous library folks. I don't imagine anyone would have a problem finding a famous male librarian to rename the bot to, though. I don't think there is anything to read into the gender of the bot here. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. Would you object to a male name? I don't think playing with a bot is a bad thing. I've played with real people in the room in the same way. The nice thing about a bot is that you know you'll get a response (whereas rsinger might just ignore me). As I said, I think you're reading too much into the bot's gender in this case, but I can't imagine anyone would have qualms about renaming the bot to a male name. The name is pretty inconsequential; it was just meant as a tribute to famous folks in our field. Kevin
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
+1 On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Misty De Meo misty.de@museumforhumanrights.ca wrote: On 13-01-18 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. I think you're reading too much into the zoia's (implicitly) gendered name. zoia's precursor, panizzi, was implicitly male but functioned in the same way zoia does. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. I would strongly disagree with this point. As a code4lib newbie a year ago, I found that zoia was a kind of participatory in-joke that made it *easier* for me to acclimatize to the culture of the room. I became comfortable more quickly thanks to zoia. And, as I've mentioned on IRC, I see zoia as being a manifestation of the code4lib spirit itself - a collaboratively-maintained collection of plugins by members of the community. Could the more offensive elements of zoia be reined in? Certainly. But I would find it very unfortunate to remove zoia altogether. Misty (As aLways, opinions are mine, not my employers', c.) On 1/18/13 8:20 AM, Jon Gorman wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? There's actually two different but closely related issues: 1) Plugins that generate a lot of information/responses which have been a problem as they can interrupt flow of questions/discussions during the conference. @blockparty lists what songs people are playing that have registered their irc nick scrobble. It produces a lot of lines and a couple of calls can cause people's screens to scroll-off. Not a problem with the normal traffic in the room, but when going from maybe 20/30 active participants to hundreds it can be an issue. There's probably some others like @google or @naf with a long response that could be disabled as well. @naf is a nice one for demonstrating zoia, but @marc is pretty compact and also wonderfully library-centric ;). 2) Plugins that are crude/offensive like @mf and the urban dictionary one. I think the thread kicked off with the first one, but I think it rapidly brought in the issue of the latter. I'm in agreement that the latter category probably should be just removed. The first category probably would be useful to disable during the conference but to have. Jon Gorman -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On 1/18/13 8:46 AM, Misty De Meo wrote I would strongly disagree with this point. As a code4lib newbie a year ago, I found that zoia was a kind of participatory in-joke that made it *easier* for me to acclimatize to the culture of the room. I became comfortable more quickly thanks to zoia. The c4l FAQ says, under ground rules: Be sensitive of the fact that cultures, opinions and ideas of what is funny or appropriate are different, and that text is a very poor medium for conveying humor. Not everyone has the same sense of humor, or finds the same things funny. So Zoia play may work for some, but may exclude others. kc And, as I've mentioned on IRC, I see zoia as being a manifestation of the code4lib spirit itself - a collaboratively-maintained collection of plugins by members of the community. Could the more offensive elements of zoia be reined in? Certainly. But I would find it very unfortunate to remove zoia altogether. Misty (As aLways, opinions are mine, not my employers', c.) On 1/18/13 8:20 AM, Jon Gorman wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? There's actually two different but closely related issues: 1) Plugins that generate a lot of information/responses which have been a problem as they can interrupt flow of questions/discussions during the conference. @blockparty lists what songs people are playing that have registered their irc nick scrobble. It produces a lot of lines and a couple of calls can cause people's screens to scroll-off. Not a problem with the normal traffic in the room, but when going from maybe 20/30 active participants to hundreds it can be an issue. There's probably some others like @google or @naf with a long response that could be disabled as well. @naf is a nice one for demonstrating zoia, but @marc is pretty compact and also wonderfully library-centric ;). 2) Plugins that are crude/offensive like @mf and the urban dictionary one. I think the thread kicked off with the first one, but I think it rapidly brought in the issue of the latter. I'm in agreement that the latter category probably should be just removed. The first category probably would be useful to disable during the conference but to have. Jon Gorman -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Salvete! Code4Lib's female bot Zoia beats Koha's male bot Wahanui any day of the week. I have to say, when I first saw this thread rev up, I thought Heavens! What are those ruffians teaching my darling girl?! I think I've witnessed irreverent quips from time to time, but I don't think I caught anything sexist from her. (Not that I'm always in Code4Lib or even there a lot.) My metric for coding and usability has ever been is task X easy enough for me to do it? In this case that would read: is teaching the bot a new trick, or unlearning an olde bad one, easy enough for me to do it? The answer in this case is a very easy yes. So that gives you an idea of comfort zone. :) I *think* (I'm being horrible and not checking) that she's a supybot, or in any case at least mostly observes that set of commands, so if you're curious, check this out: http://supybook.fealdia.org/devel/ Cause this is anarchy where we can just change the bot back to being civil, yes? Cheers, Brooke
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Michael J. Giarlo leftw...@alumni.rutgers.edu wrote: Yes, I believe zoia was named as a tribute to Zoia Horn, FWIW. I did name zoia as a tribute to Zoia Horn. My copy of *ZOIA! Memoirs of Zoia Horn, Battler for the People’s Right to Know* holds a special place on my bookshelf. I highly recommend it. That said, if it would help to make the bot less gendered I'm happy to rename it. I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). I introduced emerac to #code4lib as a hubot a year or so ago, and was planning to reintroduce it as an n0d3 bot at some point. Could be a fun thing to work on at the conference.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Gabriel Farrell gsf...@gmail.com wrote: I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). ... How exactly do you pronounce that?
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
You need a plugin to pronounce that. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Andreas Orphanides akorp...@ncsu.eduwrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Gabriel Farrell gsf...@gmail.com wrote: I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). ... How exactly do you pronounce that?
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Friday, January 18, 2013, Gabriel Farrell wrote: I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). I introduced emerac to #code4lib as a hubot a year or so ago, and was planning to reintroduce it as an n0d3 bot at some point. Could be a fun thing to work on at the conference. As a recently self-diagnosed Never-Node, this makes me a bit uncomfortable. --jay
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
+1 for renaming @poledance to @rsinger. On Friday, January 18, 2013, Tim Donohue wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
It also sounds like our channel @helpers and the @help command could help by spreading the word about /ignore. If you like the #code4lib experience and find Zoia annoying, please do yourself a favor and /ignore zoia so you don't have to miss out. -Mike On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Jay Luker lb...@reallywow.com wrote: +1 for renaming @poledance to @rsinger. On Friday, January 18, 2013, Tim Donohue wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
I think there has been general consensus that there are some offensive plugins and that the bot should be held to the same level we expect from a person, but noone (yet) has stepped up to volunteer to go through all that's available and make an effort at cleaning things up. As we all know, things don't get done in Code4Lib without someone doing the work. Anyone want to step up and volunteer to go through what's there and take a stab at it? Even a first pass might advance us to the next level of discussion... or a list of plugins in question could be farmed out to individuals interested in making the changes? Kevin (taking a step backwards) On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Luker lb...@reallywow.com wrote: On Friday, January 18, 2013, Gabriel Farrell wrote: I've also been working on a new IRC bot framework in node.js called n0d3 ( https://github.com/gsf/n0d3). I introduced emerac to #code4lib as a hubot a year or so ago, and was planning to reintroduce it as an n0d3 bot at some point. Could be a fun thing to work on at the conference. As a recently self-diagnosed Never-Node, this makes me a bit uncomfortable. Okay, maybe it's not a good idea for #code4lib then.
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Is it the plugins themselves or the content? I suspect that some plugins lend themselves to more joking around and possible inappropriateness, but I'm not sure that it's plugin problem, perhaps its a user error. kc On 1/18/13 10:17 AM, Kevin S. Clarke wrote: I think there has been general consensus that there are some offensive plugins and that the bot should be held to the same level we expect from a person, but noone (yet) has stepped up to volunteer to go through all that's available and make an effort at cleaning things up. As we all know, things don't get done in Code4Lib without someone doing the work. Anyone want to step up and volunteer to go through what's there and take a stab at it? Even a first pass might advance us to the next level of discussion... or a list of plugins in question could be farmed out to individuals interested in making the changes? Kevin (taking a step backwards) On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On 1/18/13 10:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Yes. Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? No. Could this have any relation to the felt need to create #libtechwomen? Yes. I know these are rhetorical questions but each of them bears repeating. And to this last point, I would underscore that the need was first felt, then openly discussed in this channel and acted upon. Thank you for raising these questions - the earlier discussions about community dynamics were the elephant in the what about zoia room. Joe Montibello, MLIS Library Systems Manager Dartmouth College Library 603.646.9394 joseph.montibe...@dartmouth.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
FWIW, I am both an active #libtechwomen participant and someone who is so thoroughly charmed by zoia I am frequently bothered she isn't right there *in my real life*. (Yes, I have tried to issue zoia commands during face-to-face conversations with non-Code4Libbers.) I think a collaboratively maintained bot with a highly open ethos is always going to end up with some things that cross people's lines, and that's an opportunity to talk about those lines and rearticulate our group norms. And to that end, I'm in favor of weeding the collection of plugins, whether because of offensiveness or disuse. (Perhaps this would be a good use of github's issue tracker, too?) I also think some sort of 'what's zoia and how can you contribute' link would be useful in any welcome-newbie plugin; it did take me a while to figure out what was going on there. (Just as it took me the while to acquire the tastes for, say, coffee, bourbon, and blue cheese, tastes which I would now defend ferociously.) But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. Andromeda On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: ... and BTW, if people see Zoia as a bit of a problem during the conference, doesn't that mean that Zoia is a bit of a problem all of the time? Is there a reason to be polite and inclusive during the conference but not every day? Could this have any relation to the felt need to create #libtechwomen? kc -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Is it the plugins themselves or the content? I suspect that some plugins lend themselves to more joking around and possible inappropriateness, but I'm not sure that it's plugin problem, perhaps its a user error. I seem to be in a talkative mood today. I'd like to make the distinction between @mf which will return the same result every time and @ana (an anagram plugin) which will sometimes return something offensive. When you use @mf you know you're doing something which some might find offensive. When you use @ana most of what you get isn't offensive (it is more of a case of bad luck when you get something that is... and people have dealt with this, in the past, in different ways; one of which is by decrementing the bot when something offensive is said (to express disagreement with the statement that their interaction produced)). On the first case, @mf... is it the plugin or is it the person? Yes, guns don't kill people... people kill people. That still doesn't stop me from wanting to pass gun laws though. In the case of @ana... that seems pretty clearly a plugin problem to me, and one that's fixable by changing the plugin. As always, just my two cents... Kevin
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Andromeda Yelton andromeda.yel...@gmail.com wrote: But not having zoia would make me sad. And defining zoia to be woman-unfriendly, when zoia-lovers and zoia-haters appear to span the gender spectrum and have a variety of reasons (both gendered and non) for their reactions, would make me sad too. @love zoia. +1 from a woman who's thoroughly amused by zoia more often than not
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Merged #4. --ay On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Nick Ruest rue...@gmail.com wrote: Starting the work. Remove poledance and euph: https://github.com/code4lib/** supybot-plugins/pull/4https://github.com/code4lib/supybot-plugins/pull/4 -nruest On 13-01-18 01:17 PM, Kevin S. Clarke wrote: I think there has been general consensus that there are some offensive plugins and that the bot should be held to the same level we expect from a person, but noone (yet) has stepped up to volunteer to go through all that's available and make an effort at cleaning things up. As we all know, things don't get done in Code4Lib without someone doing the work. Anyone want to step up and volunteer to go through what's there and take a stab at it? Even a first pass might advance us to the next level of discussion... or a list of plugins in question could be farmed out to individuals interested in making the changes? Kevin (taking a step backwards) On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
I'm looking at the supybot code in c4l's github and don't see @mf here in any of the three folders. Can you say what it does? Thanks, kc On 1/18/13 11:46 AM, Kevin S. Clarke wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Is it the plugins themselves or the content? I suspect that some plugins lend themselves to more joking around and possible inappropriateness, but I'm not sure that it's plugin problem, perhaps its a user error. I seem to be in a talkative mood today. I'd like to make the distinction between @mf which will return the same result every time and @ana (an anagram plugin) which will sometimes return something offensive. When you use @mf you know you're doing something which some might find offensive. When you use @ana most of what you get isn't offensive (it is more of a case of bad luck when you get something that is... and people have dealt with this, in the past, in different ways; one of which is by decrementing the bot when something offensive is said (to express disagreement with the statement that their interaction produced)). On the first case, @mf... is it the plugin or is it the person? Yes, guns don't kill people... people kill people. That still doesn't stop me from wanting to pass gun laws though. In the case of @ana... that seems pretty clearly a plugin problem to me, and one that's fixable by changing the plugin. As always, just my two cents... Kevin -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
@mf just returns a large ASCII image of a hand flicking the bird (or what do the kids call it nowadays?) That is, sticking up its middle finger. Kevin On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: I'm looking at the supybot code in c4l's github and don't see @mf here in any of the three folders. Can you say what it does? Thanks, kc On 1/18/13 11:46 AM, Kevin S. Clarke wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Is it the plugins themselves or the content? I suspect that some plugins lend themselves to more joking around and possible inappropriateness, but I'm not sure that it's plugin problem, perhaps its a user error. I seem to be in a talkative mood today. I'd like to make the distinction between @mf which will return the same result every time and @ana (an anagram plugin) which will sometimes return something offensive. When you use @mf you know you're doing something which some might find offensive. When you use @ana most of what you get isn't offensive (it is more of a case of bad luck when you get something that is... and people have dealt with this, in the past, in different ways; one of which is by decrementing the bot when something offensive is said (to express disagreement with the statement that their interaction produced)). On the first case, @mf... is it the plugin or is it the person? Yes, guns don't kill people... people kill people. That still doesn't stop me from wanting to pass gun laws though. In the case of @ana... that seems pretty clearly a plugin problem to me, and one that's fixable by changing the plugin. As always, just my two cents... Kevin -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
Have some more. https://github.com/code4lib/supybot-plugins/pull/5 -nruest On 13-01-18 02:56 PM, Andromeda Yelton wrote: Merged #4. --ay On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Nick Ruest rue...@gmail.com wrote: Starting the work. Remove poledance and euph: https://github.com/code4lib/** supybot-plugins/pull/4https://github.com/code4lib/supybot-plugins/pull/4 -nruest On 13-01-18 01:17 PM, Kevin S. Clarke wrote: I think there has been general consensus that there are some offensive plugins and that the bot should be held to the same level we expect from a person, but noone (yet) has stepped up to volunteer to go through all that's available and make an effort at cleaning things up. As we all know, things don't get done in Code4Lib without someone doing the work. Anyone want to step up and volunteer to go through what's there and take a stab at it? Even a first pass might advance us to the next level of discussion... or a list of plugins in question could be farmed out to individuals interested in making the changes? Kevin (taking a step backwards) On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org wrote: FWIW, there are a few zoia commands I've noticed that could come across as sexist (especially if you see Zoia as being a female bot). I don't think they are used that frequently, but I have seen: @poledance (have zoia display a poledancer) @euph (have zoia respond in a euphemism) This isn't meant to spoil any of the fun of having zoia around. For the most part, I don't take offense to zoia. But, I do find zoia annoying / noisy (which is why I'm rarely in code4lib IRC). Though there are some useful / helpful zoia commands in there. I like Jon Gorman's suggestion of having a friendly, helpful bot and a wise-cracking one. That way, those of us annoyed by the ongoing wise-cracking can ignore it, while still having access to the helpful stuff. (And it may be easier to turn off the wise-cracking parts during the conference if desired.) - Tim On 1/18/2013 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: Actually, I find the playing with Zoia itself offensive. As per my response to my own message. It objectifies women. Treats them as play-things. Makes me very uncomfortable. If we want to have an information bot, perhaps like the one used by W3C which takes minutes for meetings (Zakim, I believe it is), that seems reasonable. But to have a play-thing that is gendered is a really, really bad idea. In fact, to have a play-thing of any kind on the channel might not be a good idea. I know that some folks find it fun, but it is akin to the locker-room shenanigans (at least as I experience it), and it's a HUGE in-joke that makes it obvious to anyone new that they aren't in. kc
Re: [CODE4LIB] Zoia
I personally regard the IRC channel as a particular flavor of c4l, rather than the primary flavor. For example, this discussion is happening on the mailing list and not in the IRC channel. I'd say IRC is one of the main flavors, but I'm not sure I would call anything primary. I really like zoia, and find the channel to be a very good complement to the conference. But I really don't hang out in IRC, and I think many people who read the mailing list and/or attend events don't either. Regarding people being comfortable with participating in the IRC channel, I think you can't please everyone. If you stop all the messing around with zoia because some people find it frivolous and irritating, then other people will think the channel has gotten too stuffy and serious. So I think it's important to keep focused on what is alienating to a large fraction of the community. -Esme -- Esme Cowles escow...@ucsd.edu Information wants to be anthropomorphized. -- /. sig On 01/18/2013, at 3:47 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: This would mean not seeing the c4l irc as a primary community space but as a particular flavor of the community space, and taking pains to make sure that c4l IRC is not billed as or treated as the main stage for c4l and those who do not hang out in the channel should not be viewed as non-participants in c4l (and I think they are not). However, by doing so we do lose the one central go-to place for quick questions when you're stuck in some technology nightmare. Some of that takes place on the list, but sometimes you want to find a real person and do a quick back-and-forth.
