Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
You almost certainly should not rewrite an entire codebase from scratch unless there's an extremely good reason to do so. JoelOnSoftware did a good piece on it - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html. Why has your project manager decided Node.js is the way to go instead of something like Python or Perl? Just because it's a shiny new technology? Python's got Twisted and Perl has POE if you want to do asynchronous programming. They also both have a very large number of excellent quality libraries to do innumerable other things. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Ed Summers [e...@pobox.com] Sent: 09 May 2012 04:26 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js? I've been using NodeJS in a few side projects lately, and have come to like it quite a bit for certain types of applications: specifically applications that need to do a lot of I/O in memory constrained environments. A recent one is Wikitweets [1] which provides a real time view of tweets on Twitter that reference Wikipedia. Similarly Wikistream [2] monitors ~30 Wikimedia IRC channels for information about Wikipedia articles being edited and publishes them to the Web. For both these apps the socket.io library for NodeJS provided a really nice abstraction for streaming data from the server to the client using a variety of mechanisms: web sockets, flash socket, long polling, JSONP polling, etc. NodeJS' event driven programming model made it easy to listen to the Twitter stream, or the ~30 IRC channels, while simultaneously holding open socket connections to browsers to push updates to--all from within one process. Doing this sort of thing in a more typical web application stack like Apache or Tomcat can get very expensive where each client connection is a new thread or process--which can lead to lots of memory being used. If you've done any JavaScript programming in the browser, it will seem familiar, because of the extensive use of callbacks. This can take some getting used to, but it can be a real win in some cases, especially in applications that are more I/O bound than CPU bound. Ryan Dahl (the creator of NodeJS) gave a presentation [4] to a PHP group last year which does a really nice job of describing how NodeJS is different, and why it might be useful for you. If you are new to event driven programming I wouldn't underestimate how much time you might spend feeling like you are turning our brain inside out. In general I was really pleased with the library support in NodeJS, and the amount of activity there is in the community. The ability to run the same code in the client as in the browser might be of some interest. Also, being able use libraries like jQuery or PhantomJS in command line programs is pretty interesting for things like screen scraping the tagsoup HTML that is so prevalent on the Web. If you end up needing to do RDF and XML processing from within NodeJS and you aren't finding good library support you might want to find databases (Sesame, eXist, etc) that have good HTTP APIs and use something like request [5] if there isn't already support for it. I wrote up why NodeJS was fun to use for Wikistream on my blog if you are interested [6]. I recommend you try doing something small to get your feet wet with NodeJS first before diving in with the rewrite. Good luck! //Ed [1] http://wikitweets.herokuapp.com [2] http://wikistream.inkdroid.org [3] http://inkdroid.org/journal/2011/11/07/an-ode-to-node/ [4] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_B4LTHi3I [5] https://github.com/mikeal/request [6] http://inkdroid.org/journal/2011/11/07/an-ode-to-node/ On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Randy Fischer randy.fisc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. It's a very interesting project - I think of it as kind of non-preemptive multitasking framework, very much like POE in the Perl world, but with a more elegant way of managing the event queue. Where it could shine is that it accepts streaming, non-blocking HTTP requests. So for large PUTs and POSTs, it could be a real win (most other web-server arrangements are going to require completed uploads of the request, followed by a hand-off to your framework of an opened file descriptor to a temporary file). My naive tests with it a year or so ago gave inconsistent results, though (sometime the checksums of large PUTs were right, sometimes not). And of course to scale up, do SSL, etc, you'll really need to put something
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Berry, Rob robert.be...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: You almost certainly should not rewrite an entire codebase from scratch unless there's an extremely good reason to do so. JoelOnSoftware did a good piece on it - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html. Why has your project manager decided Node.js is the way to go instead of something like Python or Perl? Just because it's a shiny new technology? Python's got Twisted and Perl has POE if you want to do asynchronous programming. They also both have a very large number of excellent quality libraries to do innumerable other things. I totally agree, it's all about the right tool for the job. Just to clarify, NodeJS is quite a bit different than Twisted and POE because the entire language and its supporting libraries are written for event driven programming from the bottom up. When using Twisted and POE you may end up needing existing libraries that are synchronous, so the wins aren't as great, and things can get...complicated. For a pretty even handed description of this check out Paul Querna's blog post about why Rackspace decided to switch from Twisted to NodeJS for their cloud monitoring dashboard applications [1]. I am not saying Perl and Python are not good tools (they are) just that the benefits of using NodeJS are not all hype. //Ed [1] http://journal.paul.querna.org/articles/2011/12/18/the-switch-python-to-node-js/
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
No, it's not all hype. I've used Node to write a server for ticket scanners at a festival and enjoyed working with it. It performed well and was stable. I'm just sceptical about someone who wants to throw away a codebase for something that, whether deserved or not, is generating a lot of buzz at the moment. Though re Python I would say mixing Django with Twisted is a fairly blatant error. There are libraries built on Twisted to serve web-pages, and if you're doing event-driven programming you should really be using them. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Ed Summers [e...@pobox.com] Sent: 09 May 2012 09:24 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js? On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Berry, Rob robert.be...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: You almost certainly should not rewrite an entire codebase from scratch unless there's an extremely good reason to do so. JoelOnSoftware did a good piece on it - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html. Why has your project manager decided Node.js is the way to go instead of something like Python or Perl? Just because it's a shiny new technology? Python's got Twisted and Perl has POE if you want to do asynchronous programming. They also both have a very large number of excellent quality libraries to do innumerable other things. I totally agree, it's all about the right tool for the job. Just to clarify, NodeJS is quite a bit different than Twisted and POE because the entire language and its supporting libraries are written for event driven programming from the bottom up. When using Twisted and POE you may end up needing existing libraries that are synchronous, so the wins aren't as great, and things can get...complicated. For a pretty even handed description of this check out Paul Querna's blog post about why Rackspace decided to switch from Twisted to NodeJS for their cloud monitoring dashboard applications [1]. I am not saying Perl and Python are not good tools (they are) just that the benefits of using NodeJS are not all hype. //Ed [1] http://journal.paul.querna.org/articles/2011/12/18/the-switch-python-to-node-js/
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Berry, Rob robert.be...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: Though re Python I would say mixing Django with Twisted is a fairly blatant error. There are libraries built on Twisted to serve web-pages, and if you're doing event-driven programming you should really be using them. Heh, but part of your argument for using POE or Twisted was that they also both have a very large number of excellent quality libraries to do innumerable other things. I think it's more like a slippery slope of mixing programming paradigms than it is a blatant error. Also, I think it was specifically the Django ORM code that bit them hardest, not HTTP calls. Yes there are ORM options like adbmapper, but I think you increasingly find yourself in the weeds on the fringe of the Python community. //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
No, fair enough, you are right. If that's the paradigm you want it would be a better bet to go for a language that has it built in from the ground up. From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Ed Summers [e...@pobox.com] Sent: 09 May 2012 10:05 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js? On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Berry, Rob robert.be...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: Though re Python I would say mixing Django with Twisted is a fairly blatant error. There are libraries built on Twisted to serve web-pages, and if you're doing event-driven programming you should really be using them. Heh, but part of your argument for using POE or Twisted was that they also both have a very large number of excellent quality libraries to do innumerable other things. I think it's more like a slippery slope of mixing programming paradigms than it is a blatant error. Also, I think it was specifically the Django ORM code that bit them hardest, not HTTP calls. Yes there are ORM options like adbmapper, but I think you increasingly find yourself in the weeds on the fringe of the Python community. //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Berry, Rob robert.be...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: No, fair enough, you are right. If that's the paradigm you want it would be a better bet to go for a language that has it built in from the ground up. And (just so it isn't lost) you are absolutely right to question whether there is a legitimate reason for wanting to do the rewrite :-) //Ed
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Ed Summers e...@pobox.com wrote: For both these apps the socket.io library for NodeJS provided a really nice abstraction for streaming data from the server to the client using a variety of mechanisms: web sockets, flash socket, long polling, JSONP polling, etc. NodeJS' event driven programming model made it easy to listen to the Twitter stream, or the ~30 IRC channels, while simultaneously holding open socket connections to browsers to push updates to--all from within one process. Doing this sort of thing in a more typical web application stack like Apache or Tomcat can get very expensive where each client connection is a new thread or process--which can lead to lots of memory being used. We've also been using socket.io for our cloudbrowser project, with great success. The only drawback is that websockets don't (yet) support compression, but that's not node.js fault. Another fault: you can't easily migrate open socket.io connections across processes (yet). FWIW, since you mention Rackspace - the lead student on the the cloudbrowser project has now accepted a job at Rackspace (having turned down M$), in part because he finds their technology/environment more exciting. I need to dampen the enthusiasm about memory use a bit. It's true that you're saving memory for additional threads etc., but - depending on your application - you're also paying for that because V8 still lacks some opportunities for sharing other environments have. For instance, if you run 25 Apache instances with say mod_whatever, they'll all share the code via shared .so file. In Java/Tomcat, the JVM exploits, under the hood, similar sharing opportunities. V8/node.js, as of now, does not. This means if you need to load libraries such as jQuery n times, you're paying a substantial price (we found on the order of 1-2MB per instance), because V8 will not do any code sharing under the hood. That said, whether you need to load it multiple times depends on your application - but that's another subtle and error prone issue. If you've done any JavaScript programming in the browser, it will seem familiar, because of the extensive use of callbacks. This can take some getting used to, but it can be a real win in some cases, especially in applications that are more I/O bound than CPU bound. Ryan Dahl (the creator of NodeJS) gave a presentation [4] to a PHP group last year which does a really nice job of describing how NodeJS is different, and why it might be useful for you. If you are new to event driven programming I wouldn't underestimate how much time you might spend feeling like you are turning our brain inside out. The complications arising from event-based programming are an extensively written-about topic of research; one available approach is the use of compilers that provide a linear syntax for asynchronous calls. The TAME system, which originally arose from research at MIT, is one such example. Originally for C++, there's now a version for JavaScript available: http://tamejs.org/ Though I haven't tried it myself, I'm eager to and would also like to know if someone else has. The tamejs.org provides excellent reading for why/how you'd want to do this. - Godmar
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Here's one: http://vivosearchlight.org/ It's a bookmarklet that installs simply by dragging a button on that web site to the menu bar in your browser. Once installed you can go to any web page on the net, then click on the VIVO Searchlight link in the menu bar. That action takes the text from the web site, does some simple text analysis, then sends common terms to a search engine that has indexed several instances of a semantic web application which contains data about researches. A window then pops up at the top of the browser window which shows you who may be doing research in the subject area represented on the web page you're looking at. You can then highlight any text on that page and it sends just that bit of text to the search engine to refine results. -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Ethan Gruber Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:35 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js? Thanks, it really helps to get a list of projects using it so I can get a better sense of what's possible. On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: I have done some work with node building apps in the areas of mapping and communication (chat, etc.). Looking at the list at https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Projects,-Applications,-and-Compan ies-Using-Node , the emphasis on real-time stands out. Node is fast and lightweight, and is well suited to applications that need speed and can take advantage of multiple channels. Thanks, Cary On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. Thanks, Ethan -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
I have done some work with node building apps in the areas of mapping and communication (chat, etc.). Looking at the list at https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Projects,-Applications,-and-Companies-Using-Node, the emphasis on real-time stands out. Node is fast and lightweight, and is well suited to applications that need speed and can take advantage of multiple channels. Thanks, Cary On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. Thanks, Ethan -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Node is fairly new - so it would be a little experimental. But it does have an active community, and there are quite a few useful packages; including a solr-client (http://search.npmjs.org/#/solr-client). I would look into it, if only for the purposes of learning a little more about it and to see if it would work in the context of your needs. -drew On 5/8/12 9:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vacknjv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruberewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n -- Andrew Gordon MSI April 2011 School of Information University of Michigan
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Thanks, it really helps to get a list of projects using it so I can get a better sense of what's possible. On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote: I have done some work with node building apps in the areas of mapping and communication (chat, etc.). Looking at the list at https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Projects,-Applications,-and-Companies-Using-Node , the emphasis on real-time stands out. Node is fast and lightweight, and is well suited to applications that need speed and can take advantage of multiple channels. Thanks, Cary On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. Thanks, Ethan -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. We've used node.js (but not Express, their web app framework) to build our own experimental AJAX framework (http://cloudbrowser.cs.vt.edu/ ). We also have extensive experience with Tomcat-based systems. Given that wide, and increasing use of node.js, I'm optimistic that it should be stable and reliable enough for your needs; let me emphasize three points you may want to consider. a) You're programming in JavaScript/CoffeeScript, which is a higher-level language than Java. My students are vastly more productive than in Java. The use of CoffeeScript and require still allows for maintainable code. b) node.js is a single-threaded environment. Reduced potential for some race conditions, but requires an asynchronous programming style. If you've done client-side AJAX, you'll find it familiar; otherwise, you need to adapt. New potential for race conditions. c) Scalability. Each node.js instance runs on a single core; modules exist for clustering on a single machine. I don't know/don't believe session state replication is as well supported as for Tomcat. On the other hand, Tomcat can be a setup nightmare (in my experience). d) Supporting libraries. We've found the surrounding infrastructure excellent. A large community is developing for it http://search.npmjs.org/ . The cool thing is that many client-side libraries work or are easily ported (e.g. moment.js). e) Doing XML in JavaScript. Though JavaScript as a language is intended to be embedded in XML documents, processing XML in JavaScript can be almost as awkward as in Java. JSON is clearly preferred and integrates very naturally. - Godmar
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Your triplestore and/or the client libraries you use to interface with it might well be Java too. While it's true that Apache, Java, and Tomcat are no longer the new hotness, they are solid and proven technologies. You would have to start breaking my fingers to convince me to ditch Solr. And as you say, nothing else (unless you want to go .NET) has that kind of XML support. I have hope for Saxon CE, but it's still in beta. My experience of Libraries is that they are mostly dead conservative when it comes to what they'll support. So I doubt Tomcat is going away any time soon. Hugh On May 8, 2012, at 10:17AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
Node is about three years old, which makes it an infant in library terms. Rails is about eight and still doesn't have a lot of traction. Perl (25 years) and Java (17 years) seem to be considered proven. Node.js might wipe the floor (or not) with Java and Perl someday, but ATM, those tools have something that node won't have for a while -- libraries that are useful to libraries. What node does have going for it is the broad userbase for Javascript (also 17 years). The learning curve is pretty short, if you have that background. Thanks, Cary On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Andrew Gordon as...@umich.edu wrote: Node is fairly new - so it would be a little experimental. But it does have an active community, and there are quite a few useful packages; including a solr-client (http://search.npmjs.org/#/solr-client). I would look into it, if only for the purposes of learning a little more about it and to see if it would work in the context of your needs. -drew On 5/8/12 9:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vacknjv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruberewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n -- Andrew Gordon MSI April 2011 School of Information University of Michigan -- Cary Gordon The Cherry Hill Company http://chillco.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? -Ross. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
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Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On May 8, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, So then explain why LAMP/Rails aren't really options. It's hard to see how anybody can recommend node.js (or any other stack) based on this statement because without knowing _why_ these are inadequate. My guess is that node's XML libraries are also libXML based, just like pretty much any other C-based language. but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Eh, if your window is 4-8 weeks, then I wouldn't be considering node for this project. It does, however, sound like you could really use a new project manager, because the one you have sounds terrible. -Ross. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
I once had benchmarks comparing XML processing with Saxon/XSLT2 vs hpricot and nokogiri, and Saxon is the most efficient XML processor there is. I don't have that data any more though, but that's why I'm not a proponent of using PHP/Ruby for delivering and manipulating XML content. Each platform has its pros and cons. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with that statement. On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, So then explain why LAMP/Rails aren't really options. It's hard to see how anybody can recommend node.js (or any other stack) based on this statement because without knowing _why_ these are inadequate. My guess is that node's XML libraries are also libXML based, just like pretty much any other C-based language. but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Eh, if your window is 4-8 weeks, then I wouldn't be considering node for this project. It does, however, sound like you could really use a new project manager, because the one you have sounds terrible. -Ross. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On May 8, 2012, at 2:30 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: I once had benchmarks comparing XML processing with Saxon/XSLT2 vs hpricot and nokogiri, and Saxon is the most efficient XML processor there is. I don't have that data any more though, but that's why I'm not a proponent of using PHP/Ruby for delivering and manipulating XML content. Each platform has its pros and cons. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with that statement. I don't think any feathers were ruffled, but it helps to understand what you're looking for. Basically node is going to be in the same camp as PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl, etc. and rely on LibXML/LibXSLT (which means no XSLT2). If Saxon is your primary tool, I think you're best off with something in the JVM (Java, JRuby, Groovy, etc.) or C#. There's no reason, for example, you couldn't run Saxon with JRuby and Rails. But there's still that 4-8 week deadline. -Ross. On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, So then explain why LAMP/Rails aren't really options. It's hard to see how anybody can recommend node.js (or any other stack) based on this statement because without knowing _why_ these are inadequate. My guess is that node's XML libraries are also libXML based, just like pretty much any other C-based language. but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Eh, if your window is 4-8 weeks, then I wouldn't be considering node for this project. It does, however, sound like you could really use a new project manager, because the one you have sounds terrible. -Ross. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On May 8, 2012, at 2:18 PM, Ross Singer wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: [trimmed] Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Eh, if your window is 4-8 weeks, then I wouldn't be considering node for this project. It does, however, sound like you could really use a new project manager, because the one you have sounds terrible. But project managers don't 'add value' unless they actually do something. If they just let you do things the way that you've done in the past, even if they worked, they could be replaced by any other project manager who knew enough not to micro-manage things. And, if you actually managed to do the project on time, with them staying mostly hands-off, what does that tell people? That they're not needed ... they need a project that's going to hell, so they can step in and 'fix' stuff. -Joe ps. and besides the obvious 'this is not the opinion of my employer, and may or may not be sarcasm' disclaimer, I've had a few instances where there was a non-quite-as-tight deadline and I had to learn something new ... but they footed the bill for sending me to a week of training pps. in all seriousness -- I know of someone who pulled crap like this, and then used it as a reason to fire the developer and replace them with one of the PM's friends who had the 'needed' skills ... then another instance where an outside consultant did a 'peer review' of our system 2 weeks before we were supposed to go live and then somehow got a contract to design build a different system which took a year and cost the university $250k? $500k?, but he never delivered (hardware was shipped w/ empty drive arrays) ... so I might be a little more jaded than most in this scenario. (but neither of those two anecdotes were at my current employeer)
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. -- Taking this statement at face value, and taking it to its logical end (that you'll have to migrate your application), I'm extremely doubtful that Apache, Java, and Tomcat are so near their ends of life that you must redo your app in less than 8 weeks time or risk technological obsolescence. Far, far from it. Showing signs of age is just saying their old (both Apache and Tomcat had support releases in April), not that they don't work or fit your precise needs. In any event, if the timeline is real, then something's not right with the reason for changing everything over to something else or the person pushing this or It's a little mind-boggling. But, to make this a little more constructive, and assuming the 8 week deadline is real, I might consider something like MarkLogic given what you've outlined thus far [1]. That might allow you to preserve your XQuery/XSLT (providing that you have some since you are using eXist) and it gets you a replacement for Solr. Being an XML database and application server, it is designed for XML documents. Unfortunately, it is closed-source, but the company offers a free license option that might work for you. If you are investigating something with PHP, Python, or Ruby, I would look at the Zorba XQuery processor [2], which has bindings for those three languages (and a few more) and, being a specific language for manipulating XML documents, should be more conducive to what you need to do with your files. It's pure bonus if you can re-use your XQuery. There also appears to be some support for XSLT 1.0 [3]. I've not done anything with Zorba but install it on a dare. Cordially, Kevin [1] http://community.marklogic.com/ [2] http://www.zorba-xquery.com/html/index [3] http://www.zorba-xquery.com/html/modules/zorba/programming/xslt On 05/08/2012 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: Thanks. I have been working on a system that allows editing of RDF in web forms, creating linked data connections in the background, publishing to eXist and Solr for dissemination, and will eventually integrate operation with an RDF triplestore/SPARQL, all with Tomcat apps. I'm not sure it is possible to create, manage, and deliver our content with node.js, but I was told by the project manager that Apache, Java, and Tomcat were showing signs of age. I'm not so sure about this considering the prevalence of Tomcat apps both in libraries and industry. I happen to be very fond of Solr, and it seems very risky to start over in node.js, especially since I can't be certain the end product will succeed. I prefer to err on the side of stability. If anyone has other thoughts about the future of Tomcat applications in the library, or more broadly cultural heritage informatics, feel free to jump in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Nate Vacknjv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Ethan Gruberewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. I've only played a little bit, but my take is: you'll have more parts to build than with other systems. If you need persistent connections, it's gonna be neat; if you don't, it's probably not worth the bother. The Peepcode screencasts on Node: https://peepcode.com/screencasts/node are probably worth your time and money. -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
(and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) -- I don't know if the parenthetical was simply a statement or a solicitation - apologies if it was the former. Take a look at Mulgara. Drops right into Tomcat. http://mulgara.org/ --Kevin On 05/08/2012 02:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vacknjv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singerrossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
The 4-8 week deadline is more self-imposed than anything. The plan is (or was) to deploy the new version of this project by mid-late summer. It is already under way, with a working prototype, and I can probably mostly finish it in 80-120 hours of solid work. I want to deploy it as soon as we can because other bigger, sexier projects depend on RDF delivered from this project. If it takes six months to completely rewrite this project for node, or any non-java platform with which I have less experience, we've thrown a monkey wrench into the development of our other projects. As for triplestores: Mulgara is on my list to check out, as is sesame. Does mulgara support SPARQL Update yet? In theory, one should be able to post updates directly from XForms into a triplestore which supports SPARQL Update. Maybe this warrants a separate thread. On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Kevin Ford k...@3windmills.com wrote: (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) -- I don't know if the parenthetical was simply a statement or a solicitation - apologies if it was the former. Take a look at Mulgara. Drops right into Tomcat. http://mulgara.org/ --Kevin On 05/08/2012 02:01 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote: For what it's worth, I have processed XML in PHP, Ruby, and Saxon/XSLT 2, but I feel like I'm missing some sort of inside joke here. Thanks for the info. To clarify, I don't develop in java, but deploy well-established java-based apps in Tomcat, like Solr and eXist (and am looking into a java triplestore to run in Tomcat) and write scripts to make these web services interact in whichever language seems to be the most appropriate. Node looks like it may be interesting to play around with, but I'm wary of having to learn something completely new, jettisoning every application and language I am experienced with, to put a new project into production in the next 4-8 weeks. Ethan On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nate Vacknjv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Ross Singerrossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Ethan Gruber wrote: in. Our data is exclusively XML, so LAMP/Rails aren't really options. ^^ Really? Nobody's going to take the bait with this one? I can't see why they would; parsing XML in ruby is simply not possible. ;-) -n
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. It's a very interesting project - I think of it as kind of non-preemptive multitasking framework, very much like POE in the Perl world, but with a more elegant way of managing the event queue. Where it could shine is that it accepts streaming, non-blocking HTTP requests. So for large PUTs and POSTs, it could be a real win (most other web-server arrangements are going to require completed uploads of the request, followed by a hand-off to your framework of an opened file descriptor to a temporary file). My naive tests with it a year or so ago gave inconsistent results, though (sometime the checksums of large PUTs were right, sometimes not). And of course to scale up, do SSL, etc, you'll really need to put something like Apache in front of it - then you lose the streaming capability. (I'd love to hear I'm wrong here). -Randy Fischer
Re: [CODE4LIB] Anyone using node.js?
I've been using NodeJS in a few side projects lately, and have come to like it quite a bit for certain types of applications: specifically applications that need to do a lot of I/O in memory constrained environments. A recent one is Wikitweets [1] which provides a real time view of tweets on Twitter that reference Wikipedia. Similarly Wikistream [2] monitors ~30 Wikimedia IRC channels for information about Wikipedia articles being edited and publishes them to the Web. For both these apps the socket.io library for NodeJS provided a really nice abstraction for streaming data from the server to the client using a variety of mechanisms: web sockets, flash socket, long polling, JSONP polling, etc. NodeJS' event driven programming model made it easy to listen to the Twitter stream, or the ~30 IRC channels, while simultaneously holding open socket connections to browsers to push updates to--all from within one process. Doing this sort of thing in a more typical web application stack like Apache or Tomcat can get very expensive where each client connection is a new thread or process--which can lead to lots of memory being used. If you've done any JavaScript programming in the browser, it will seem familiar, because of the extensive use of callbacks. This can take some getting used to, but it can be a real win in some cases, especially in applications that are more I/O bound than CPU bound. Ryan Dahl (the creator of NodeJS) gave a presentation [4] to a PHP group last year which does a really nice job of describing how NodeJS is different, and why it might be useful for you. If you are new to event driven programming I wouldn't underestimate how much time you might spend feeling like you are turning our brain inside out. In general I was really pleased with the library support in NodeJS, and the amount of activity there is in the community. The ability to run the same code in the client as in the browser might be of some interest. Also, being able use libraries like jQuery or PhantomJS in command line programs is pretty interesting for things like screen scraping the tagsoup HTML that is so prevalent on the Web. If you end up needing to do RDF and XML processing from within NodeJS and you aren't finding good library support you might want to find databases (Sesame, eXist, etc) that have good HTTP APIs and use something like request [5] if there isn't already support for it. I wrote up why NodeJS was fun to use for Wikistream on my blog if you are interested [6]. I recommend you try doing something small to get your feet wet with NodeJS first before diving in with the rewrite. Good luck! //Ed [1] http://wikitweets.herokuapp.com [2] http://wikistream.inkdroid.org [3] http://inkdroid.org/journal/2011/11/07/an-ode-to-node/ [4] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo_B4LTHi3I [5] https://github.com/mikeal/request [6] http://inkdroid.org/journal/2011/11/07/an-ode-to-node/ On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Randy Fischer randy.fisc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Ethan Gruber ewg4x...@gmail.com wrote: It was recently suggested to me that a project I am working on may adopt node.js for its architecture (well, be completely re-written for node.js). I don't know anything about node.js, and have only heard of it in some passing discussions on the list. I'd like to know if anyone on code4lib has experience developing in this platform, and what their thoughts are on it, positive or negative. It's a very interesting project - I think of it as kind of non-preemptive multitasking framework, very much like POE in the Perl world, but with a more elegant way of managing the event queue. Where it could shine is that it accepts streaming, non-blocking HTTP requests. So for large PUTs and POSTs, it could be a real win (most other web-server arrangements are going to require completed uploads of the request, followed by a hand-off to your framework of an opened file descriptor to a temporary file). My naive tests with it a year or so ago gave inconsistent results, though (sometime the checksums of large PUTs were right, sometimes not). And of course to scale up, do SSL, etc, you'll really need to put something like Apache in front of it - then you lose the streaming capability. (I'd love to hear I'm wrong here). -Randy Fischer
