Re: Neologics
Hello. On Sat, 2007-03-03 at 19:18, Pranav Desai wrote: On 3/1/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the presentation its mentioned that the debug board will cost an additional $200. How important is the debug board for phase 1 phones ? Can we update the firmware drivers and put software, kernel, etc. on it without the board? No, it is only needed if you break your bootloader. Everything besides this is recoverable with the installed bootloader. Sometimes it can make life easier as you can do step debugging with the JTAG, but for normal development, even kernel, it is not needed. regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
* Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070304 18:53]: Nice description of the technical information, with photos of the hacker's lunchbox and car kit. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7653749655.html Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that will be available this month will only be a developers board, without a phone casing = unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day operations, right? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: coverage at linuxdevices.com
As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev board connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace your phone seperatly. Someone please correct me if I missunderstand. Graham -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Kostyrka Sent: 04 March 2007 17:58 To: Joe Pfeiffer Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com * Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070304 18:53]: Nice description of the technical information, with photos of the hacker's lunchbox and car kit. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7653749655.html Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that will be available this month will only be a developers board, without a phone casing = unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day operations, right? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
* Graham Auld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070304 20:10]: As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev board connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace your phone seperatly. Yeah, but gadgets useable as phones (hardware-wise) won't be available before Summer, right? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
Andreas Kostyrka writes: * Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070304 18:53]: Nice description of the technical information, with photos of the hacker's lunchbox and car kit. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7653749655.html Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that will be available this month will only be a developers board, without a phone casing = unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day operations, right? My understanding is that the $350 standard kit will be a real live phone, though a bit rough around the edges. You seem to be describing the $250 hacker's lunchbox. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
On 3/4/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Graham Auld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070304 20:10]: As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev board connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace your phone seperatly. Yeah, but gadgets useable as phones (hardware-wise) won't be available before Summer, right? If I'm wrong, someone please correct me, but as I understand it, the phase 0 release will roll out hardware that's pretty much complete, and usable as a phone. the difference will be the software package that's released. somewhere up on the wiki, there's a list of what software will be released when. the reason the releases are listed as developer is the software package isn't complete. By getting the hardware into the hands of the developers first, the software becomes more and more complete, and ready for consumer release as for the summer hardware refresh, I'd like to know more too, but I'm assuming it's: 1. taking care of any oh noes that get noticed in the previous hardware revision 2. adding features where the FIC team have given in to the griping coming from this list Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
hardware refresh and hardware beta testing
as I was writing up my previous email, a thought occurred to me. for the big name hardware manufacturers, there's a definite benefit to supporting openmoko on thier platforms they intend to release with their proprietary OS's: testing. by releasing the hardware to the embedded community they can find any hardware issues (stinky razr keyboards?) that don't crop up in in-house testing. in reality, they don't even have to release more than a basic driver set... some of us in the community enjoy that particular brand of vodka. I know FIC is releasing the NEO under a different name as well, could this be a motivation/benefit to them? and the benefit to us is that more Openmoko platform devices are available, there are more on the street... more people who go what kind of a phone is that or how did you use your phone to unlock the door of your car(come on, that would be such a cool app... anyone up to changing the receiver/transciever for their remote door unlock?) and we have public interest. everybody wins anyways, just a thought that occurred to me -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
Dnia niedziela, 4 marca 2007, Joe Pfeiffer napisał: Andreas Kostyrka writes: Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that will be available this month will only be a developers board, without a phone casing = unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day operations, right? My understanding is that the $350 standard kit will be a real live phone, though a bit rough around the edges. You seem to be describing the $250 hacker's lunchbox. Hacker's lunchbox is EXTRA equipment (costs 200 USD) to normal package of Neo1973 (costs 350 USD). So Hacker's lunchbox version is 550 USD in total. Thats how I understand it and I think that this is how it looks. Check Car Kit price (75 USD) - it is few extra parts for phone to get it used in Car. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Best random string generator: a newbie trying to close vi. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com
On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Jeff Andros wrote: as for the summer hardware refresh, I'd like to know more too, but I'm assuming it's: 1. taking care of any oh noes that get noticed in the previous hardware revision 2. adding features where the FIC team have given in to the griping coming from this list It's not so much a matter of giving in to griping, but a careful and continuous analysis of the balance of cost, changes to schedule, changes to software, and desireability, both by developers and consumers. Decisions are made with the best information available at the time, and sometimes later information suggests a different conclusion. It takes great strength of personal and corporate character to be willing to admit that publicly and to make the change, and great wisdom to know when it is appropriate to do so, and when not. FIC and OpenMoko are going to incredible lengths to work with the community on this project, and at great risk. Please let's treat them as partners, which is how they are treating us, and not as the enemy. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: hardware refresh and hardware beta testing
On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Jeff Andros wrote: ... and the benefit to us is that more Openmoko platform devices are available, there are more on the street... more people who go what kind of a phone is that or how did you use your phone to unlock the door of your car(come on, that would be such a cool app... anyone up to changing the receiver/transciever for their remote door unlock?) and we have public interest. Funny you should mention this - I just had a need for this feature today. I didn't spot this on the wiki yet. Would you like to add it (since it's your idea) or should I? Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Itch3: Anti-lost/theft protection
Paul Wouters wrote: On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote: Personally I like the idea of periodic SMS messages with the lat/lon/altitude. When in stolen mode, having the phone receive SMS msgs containing commands for the phone would seem to be very useful. The first thing that happens to a stolen phone is that the SIM is chucked. You won't be able to *send* SMS messages, since you will not know the phone number. Unless you make sure it SENDS you its new phone number as well. FYI: just to let you know, an anti-thief\anti-lost system for phones already exists.Here is the story.Maybe someone already heard that proprietary Siemens mobile phones (x55 series based on 80C166 CPU and x65 and x75 series based on ARM9) were reverse-engineered deeply and people has bypassed boot loader protection (preventing user's code from being uploaded) so everyone can run it's own code on phone's CPU.Also I heard some other vendors were hacked successfully as well.Some SonyEricsson for example. One of the first firmware patches has been the anti-thief subsystem.How does it works?It does detects SIM card change (by IMSI checking IIRC) and then SMSes to predefined number(s) (should be someone of your family or friends of course).This reveals new phone number (allowing to take a legal actions) and can allow owner to regain remote control, get coordinates (actually, on Siemens phones you can get Cell ID at very most, funny enough anyway). Btw, few interesting things to mention... - People did implemented own run-time and executable files loader.It loads ARM .ELF files (lots of arm compilers can produce these files).Amazing hack.It allows direct code execution by user on main phone's CPU easily (almost as easy as launching Java apps). - Trojans do you say?Well... you should be a real idiot to download real executable code from untrusted place.Anyway, I _never_ heard about ELF trojans and even Window$ Mobile allows to run unsigned code but it still lacks trojans hell as well.But there is already JAVA trojans targeted for USUAL restricted phones.Virtualization does not helps.Users are often stupid enough to confirm Java SMS send few times before they recognize it costs them few US $ per sms.The ONLY way to prevent abuse is to make users smarter. Otherwise no matter what is protection, it will fail due to user stupidity.The only perfect solution is either to disable to execute anything (even Java!) and have dumb dialer instead of smart phone or to educate users a bit so they're aware of potential issues. Also I guess that there is very few native code trojans just because stupid users are usually using stupid phones (which are able to dial and send smses and able just to run Java at very most) since they're cheaper.Smart phones users are usually smarter itself (they have to know why they're paying for more expensive device, right?) and hence they're less vulnerable to trojans. - Also I have to admit funny thing.Those cell operators who afraid of network hacking and disable to run native code on the phones because of this are a *real morons*.There is already a dozens of hacked phones where user's code runs on main phone's CPU and while this is 1-chip solution, this code has COMPLETE access to cell networks, their internals and can craft absolutely any data to network.However I never heard about cell operator network hacked.But if someone will decide to hack network, he has just to use own hacked phone, replace SIM to target operator's one and (possibly) craft IMEI allowed to log in to network (perfectly possible of course once your code has full control on the whole phone, this can be illegal in some countries but hacking networks is illegal as well so who cares?).So, operators are better to secure their networks.Disabling to run native code just will cause users unhappy but it will actually never stop persons with evil intentions from doing something wrong with network.Actually looks like an ostrich :).Hiding just an head will not save their ass, even if they can no longer see danger when head is hidden. Something as simple as having a way of remotely submitting a short shell script would do the trick. Stuffing something useful in 160 chars is hard. It's better to design things beforehand, so you can just send simple commands with arguments. I wonder if you can send SMSes on the Neo without the user noticing anything, or wether things like the backlight will be turned on (by the closed off chip hardware). Paul ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).
a mock-up on a 90-key by one stroke finger keyboard. Think this might be an usable and pretty efficient input method. http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Itch3: Anti-lost/theft protection
On 3/4/07, t3st3r [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip FYI: just to let you know, an anti-thief\anti-lost system for phones already exists.Here is the story.Maybe someone already heard that proprietary Siemens mobile phones (x55 series based on 80C166 CPU and x65 and x75 series based on ARM9) were reverse-engineered deeply and people has bypassed boot loader protection (preventing user's code from being uploaded) so everyone can run it's own code on phone's CPU.Also I heard some other vendors were hacked successfully as well.Some SonyEricsson for example. One of the first firmware patches has been the anti-thief subsystem.How does it works?It does detects SIM card change (by IMSI checking IIRC) and then SMSes to predefined number(s) (should be someone of your family or friends of course).This reveals new phone number (allowing to take a legal actions) and can allow owner to regain remote control, get coordinates (actually, on Siemens phones you can get Cell ID at very most, funny enough anyway). But how does this affect resale of the device? Because then the new owner inserts a new SIMcard, and then this mechanism would go active, wouldn't it? I'm just curious, it sounds like an interesting idea. snip --- Marcel de Jong ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Idea: Mass Text Messaging
I repeatedly find myself in situations similar to this: I am at the mall with my parents and want to know if any of my friends are at the mall. I text individual friends (awkwardly) to ask if they are at the mall. Most of the time (99.99%) they are not, but still Anyway, my idea is a mass text feature that allows you to text a group of people all at the same time (with some kind of hint that the text has been sent to others) Can anyone make this happen? -ryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Idea: Mass Text Messaging
Yep piece of cake, you could set it up today (no need for Neo handset) Just code yourself a website that takes the numbers you copy into the outbound box, type your message into the message box, then enable a script to send your message to one of the many web based sms providers. You should be able to code this into a wap page that's easily accessible via any mobile (just make sure you secure access to your webserver so someone cant abuse your account). Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +1-917-207-3420 Mb +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Kline Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2007 6:47 PM To: OpenMoko Community List Subject: Idea: Mass Text Messaging I repeatedly find myself in situations similar to this: I am at the mall with my parents and want to know if any of my friends are at the mall. I text individual friends (awkwardly) to ask if they are at the mall. Most of the time (99.99%) they are not, but still Anyway, my idea is a mass text feature that allows you to text a group of people all at the same time (with some kind of hint that the text has been sent to others) Can anyone make this happen? -ryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea: Mass Text Messaging
Could anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? On Mar 4, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Dean Collins wrote: Yep piece of cake, you could set it up today (no need for Neo handset) Just code yourself a website that takes the numbers you copy into the outbound box, type your message into the message box, then enable a script to send your message to one of the many web based sms providers. You should be able to code this into a wap page that's easily accessible via any mobile (just make sure you secure access to your webserver so someone cant abuse your account). Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +1-917-207-3420 Mb +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Kline Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2007 6:47 PM To: OpenMoko Community List Subject: Idea: Mass Text Messaging I repeatedly find myself in situations similar to this: I am at the mall with my parents and want to know if any of my friends are at the mall. I text individual friends (awkwardly) to ask if they are at the mall. Most of the time (99.99%) they are not, but still Anyway, my idea is a mass text feature that allows you to text a group of people all at the same time (with some kind of hint that the text has been sent to others) Can anyone make this happen? -ryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea: Mass Text Messaging
Ryan Kline wrote: Could anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? Yes, anyone could. That's the beauty of open source :-) -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea: Mass Text Messaging
Could anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? I meant, would anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Rod Whitby wrote: Ryan Kline wrote: Could anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? Yes, anyone could. That's the beauty of open source :-) -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Itch3: Anti-lost/theft protection
t3st3r wrote: so, operators are better to secure their networks. You do realise that this essentially means 'throw away all existing GSM phones' ? If you can clone the IMEI of a phone, the network has no way of telling it from the cloned phone. Yes, you can do potentially clever things on the network thing, like disabling new clones of phones in distant locations, but with existing phones, there is no way of doing it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Setting mplementation expectations correctly (Was: Idea: Mass Text Messaging)
Ryan Kline wrote: On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Rod Whitby wrote: Ryan Kline wrote: Could anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? Yes, anyone could. That's the beauty of open source :-) I meant, would anyone write this as an extension to the openmoko software? I expect someone would. But I think your question/request regarding implementation (as opposed to specification) of this feature is a bit premature. I can SMS to multiple recipients on my current Treo650, so I'd be looking for that functionality too, and in three or six month times I might be looking to implement that feature (if it hasn't been done already). But how about we wait until the phone actually has a stable dialer (see http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/04/#20070304-phase0 for the current state), and then has an actual working command-line SMS interface, and *then* let's look at implementation of multiple recipients (on the command line, and then in the GUI). Don't get me wrong - this is not a complaint about the state of the dialer, I am *very* impressed at the speed of OpenMoko development on both the hardware and software, but some people (perhaps those who have never worked on real-world commercial embedded development) seem to have unrealistic expectations about the current state of this project. At this point in the project, specification of features is what we should be doing. Requests for actual implementations may well be quite premature at this point. Sure, if you have a great idea and you have the skills to implement it, then start now. If you have a great idea, and someone else (outside of the core team) has the drive and skills to implement it, and they have the itch enough to start now, that's great too. But vague requests like can someone please implement this feature for me are not going to get much traction when the people who are best placed to implement such features are busy getting the phone hardware and basic software to actually work ... [This is not meant to be a rant directed at you, Ryan, so please don't take it personally. It's meant to be a gentle reminder to the community that we are not discussing additions to a finished product here, we are participating in a project that is in the midst of basic product development. Let's set our questions and discussions in that context, and be mindful of our expectations as far as *implementation* of things goes (as opposed to specification of features we'd like to see).] -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).
Hey, great idea ! I'd be happy to use such a system. But there's a problem i didn't find an answear to: - the neo will have a monopoint touchscreen (at least at first) - a finger is way bigger than a detectable area - What point will exactly be detected while pressing somewhere with a finger? Plus, what about using the selection wheel / T9 ? Any news/details about this feature yet, by the way? Anyway, please keep up the brainstorming :) I was thinking about self-completion. On such a machine, we'll need maximum efficiency for passable on-the-go cmd line typing, and therefore we'll need to have some sort of T9 for command line, sophisticated autocompletion (sh should do that i guess), if we also want parameters autocompletion. What will the embedded terminal be? GPE's? Thanks Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko featured in Mac|Life
Hey Everyone-- OpenMoko's Neo1973 was featured in Mac | Life's March Issue in an article titled A Tale of Three Smartphones ...we temporarily forgot that two other touchscreen smartphones had previously been announced: LG's Prada phone and the Neo1973 smartphone, manufactured by Taiwan-based FIC and developed by OpenMoko, an open-source mobile movementwhile the OpenMoko device is a linux geek's you-know-what-dream... It also has a nice chart comparing iPhone, Neo1973, and PRADA. There is also an online editorial: http://www.maclife.com/article/ is_three_a_crowd_in_the_touch_screen_phone_arena'' enjoy, -ryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possible security hole for Dialers/troyan horses
On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 07:35 -0800, Tim Newsom wrote: On Fri, 2 Mar 2007 6:09, Evgeny wrote: It still Linux based phone — there is absolutely no real-life viruses for Linux at this time, trojans are possible treat, but user have to install them by himself. That's a pretty strong statement.. Are you absolutely sure there are no viruses for linux in the wild? Nope. If you find one, let me know I'll get, compile $ run the beast a little (In virtual machine of course). Well if then you speak about trojans, the cure is DO NOT INSTALL THEM. Security holes may exist, but patching them is simple then you know about them, and in OpenMoko it will be automated by ipkg. Read trough http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/ it contains some basics of security in Linux. When we will speak the same language. There is no Norton Internet security, that can protect you from unknown treats. When you know about trojan or something, you simple don't use (it if you don't wont to). It would seem to me that the time to think about protection is before you have a problem. Granted, you will never catch everything up front. However, thinking about and dealing with the trojan, virus , issue is not too different from the steps we were taking to notify about unintended actions of programs. I.e. Getting a notification and deciding on how the action should be handled, etc. I think Norton Internet security does an excellent job on windows.. It knows about many, many applications and versions of them, can tell you if it was modified or contains known threats including trojans, lets you know when a program does something it was not explicitly allowed to do and does it pretty well without making my laptop crawl. Combined with a rootkit detection system of some kind it would be great, but I am sure there are still holes in it I don't see. Right? I would use it on my phone if it existed for that platform. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sincerely Evgeny ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
