Re: speeding up the flow of information
Sean Moss-Pultz schrieb: > On 9/9/07 clare wrote: >> Hi Sean, and Michael and Joachim; >> Sorry for late reply, Mailout was broken. >> >> Pity this seems to have been submerged in mails about Apple. >> However I hope that leads to much more emphasis on the documentation >> side of the Open Source feature of the Neo1973 and OpenMoko itself. >> THis is where, in my opinion the real strength of the product will >> emerge. It is already evident in that a large number of people >> paid about 10 times the cost of a functional phone from ebay, >> even knowing it would take effort to get it usable. > > I couldn't agree with you more. We've been talking a lot internally > about how to get the quality (and quantity) of our documentation > increasing. > > Michael and Roh will both be working on this a lot in the (very) near > future. > > If there are things that you would specifically like to see please let > us know. > > -Sean > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > One thing could be an offical roadmap that gets updated in the Wiki. (perhaps a locked site) I've seen so much talks in the german Ubuntu forum about Neo 1973 / openmoko and there are several release dates flying around and so it would be useful if I or someone else could link to an official roadmap. Regards, Denis ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: speeding up the flow of information
On 9/9/07 clare wrote: Hi Sean, and Michael and Joachim; Sorry for late reply, Mailout was broken. Pity this seems to have been submerged in mails about Apple. However I hope that leads to much more emphasis on the documentation side of the Open Source feature of the Neo1973 and OpenMoko itself. THis is where, in my opinion the real strength of the product will emerge. It is already evident in that a large number of people paid about 10 times the cost of a functional phone from ebay, even knowing it would take effort to get it usable. I couldn't agree with you more. We've been talking a lot internally about how to get the quality (and quantity) of our documentation increasing. Michael and Roh will both be working on this a lot in the (very) near future. If there are things that you would specifically like to see please let us know. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
webkit do_compile failed
Hi folks, After clean make update-makefile make setup make update make openmoko-devel-image I get the following error, any ideas? Thanks, emre NOTE: Running task 2688 of 3300 (ID: 1455, /home/emre/moko/openembedded/packages/webkit/webkit-gtk_svn.bb, do_compile) NOTE: package webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447: started NOTE: package webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1: task do_compile: started ERROR: function do_compile failed ERROR: log data follows (/home/emre/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1/temp/log.do_compile.14313) | /home/emre/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1/temp/run.do_compile.14313: line 223: cd: /home/emre/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1//JavaScriptCore/pcre: No such file or directory NOTE: Task failed: /home/emre/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1/temp/log.do_compile.14313 NOTE: package webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447-r1: task do_compile: failed ERROR: TaskFailed event exception, aborting NOTE: package webkit-gtk-0.0+svnr25457-r25447: failed ERROR: Build of /home/emre/moko/openembedded/packages/webkit/webkit-gtk_svn.bb do_compile failed ERROR: Task 1455 (/home/emre/moko/openembedded/packages/webkit/webkit-gtk_svn.bb, do_compile) failed NOTE: Tasks Summary: Attempted 2687 tasks of which 2687 didn't need to be rerun and 1 failed. ERROR: '/home/emre/moko/openembedded/packages/webkit/webkit-gtk_svn.bb' failed ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: speeding up the flow of information
Hi Sean, and Michael and Joachim; Sorry for late reply, Mailout was broken. Pity this seems to have been submerged in mails about Apple. However I hope that leads to much more emphasis on the documentation side of the Open Source feature of the Neo1973 and OpenMoko itself. THis is where, in my opinion the real strength of the product will emerge. It is already evident in that a large number of people paid about 10 times the cost of a functional phone from ebay, even knowing it would take effort to get it usable. So a very big Welcome to Michael and Roh. clare On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Dear Community, I'd like to introduce Michael Shiloh and Joachim "Roh" Steiger -- two new members of the OpenMoko team. Their primary responsibility will be to support you, the OpenMoko community developers. I'm sure you'll all agree this is an extremely important (and too often neglected in this project) role ;-) This includes getting technical and non-technical information out to you as quickly as possible, and also speeding your questions, ideas, and concerns to the appropriate person inside OpenMoko. Michael will focus more on North America and the Middle East while Roh will help out with Europe. Other regions will be shared between them both. Expect to hear more from them shortly. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007, OJW wrote: Just playing with another idea for text-entry: http://almien.co.uk/Keypad/ Hi OJW, THat is a FUN thing, and would be even better if the letters appeared much larger as you got nearer the end. I enjoyed it much more than an ordinary game. I hope you keep working on it, as good ideas never seem to get other than objections. THe nice thing about OpenMoko is that we can use a thing even if it doesn't grab the mass market. cheers, clare ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
On Sep 8, 2007, at 11:22 AM, Ian Stirling wrote: It's not _quite_ that bad. You get >> 1 hour, even playing h.263 very loudly while on a phone call. That's cool for demo purposes. Unfortunately H.263 is really only of interest to people with patience - the average end-user will consider H.263 support to be equivalent to no video support, since there's no media available in that format, and e.g. Handbrake doesn't support it. H.263 requires a bit less CPU for playback than H.264, but unfortunately requires more bits for the same quality, which I think is why it's been almost completely replaced by H.264. I don't mean to make this out to be a crisis, but in order to sell in quantity to non-geeks, the phone will have to support H.264, or else we'll need something like Handbrake that supports H.263. If it had H.264 support in hardware with that screen, it would be *really* sweet! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On Saturday 08 September 2007 14:58, Giles Jones wrote: > For the web you can have a www button and a combo > with .com, .co.uk, .org and others which the user can predefine. You > minimise typing that way and T9 does work for the domain name, you > can hold a button to produce a list of symbols (Windows Mobile does > this, it works quite well). I'm just thinking: the autocomplete on bash, or on a Firefox URL bar, only starts to work once it receives a load of actual typed text If you supply to it a set of options "(DEF)(WXYZ)(ABC)(MNO)(PQRS)(JKL)(DEF)" when you typed "example" (i.e. multiple possibilites for what you typed), then would the address bar text-entry need to be changed to recognise the multiple possibilites that you were simultaneously typing? Or would the keyboard program handle all the possible autocompletions (meaning it needs to access the list of recent URLs from the browser, or assume that the words you type into emails are the same as the words you use in URLs and shell scripts) (p.s. the ".co.uk button" idea sounds more like a graphical URL constructor, than a keyboard) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors
Shawn Rutledge wrote: On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with. I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I disagree... I think the primary focus should be improving the UI and taking the features as close to multitouch as possible... Forgive me if it has been covered, but Java phone from sun looks really clean. Not sure the extent of the project, but if they are already developing an interface that - no offense - looks leaps and bounds better than what we have now, shouldn't we consider integration? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
On Saturday 08 September 2007 19:31:30 Ted Lemon wrote: > > What about encoding features of the smedia chips ? The day there will > > be a camera on the neo... > Unless you're encoding a long run of video, I don't think this is a > major issue. If you are, yeah, hardware encoding for H.264 sounds > like a great idea. If you got a decent camera on it, you WILL be encoding long videos at times. Just look at the videos coming out of the Nokia N93 for an example of it done right... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
Ted Lemon wrote: On Sep 8, 2007, at 7:00 AM, Mikko Rauhala wrote: Software playing will probably take a bit more power, sure, but that aside, the Neo's youtube capabilities already partially exceed (*sigh* at the obligatory comparison) the iPhone's. A lot more power, not a little. Flash is even worse - that's why Apple refused to support it. Figure you might get an hour of battery life if you decode H.264 in hardware, if your CPU can even keep up. Because that's how long the battery lasts with no power management on the Neo right now. The Neo's CPU is roughly equivalent to the Nokia It's not _quite_ that bad. You get >> 1 hour, even playing h.263 very loudly while on a phone call. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
On Sep 8, 2007, at 7:00 AM, Mikko Rauhala wrote: Software playing will probably take a bit more power, sure, but that aside, the Neo's youtube capabilities already partially exceed (*sigh* at the obligatory comparison) the iPhone's. A lot more power, not a little. Flash is even worse - that's why Apple refused to support it. Figure you might get an hour of battery life if you decode H.264 in hardware, if your CPU can even keep up. Because that's how long the battery lasts with no power management on the Neo right now. The Neo's CPU is roughly equivalent to the Nokia 770, which can't play H.264 video in real time. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
On Sep 8, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Florent THIERY wrote: But who really wants to check out youtube videos in the subway ? Marketing, marketing... My wife uses the video feature on her iPod quite a bit when we're traveling. And video podcasts are a great idea for the subway - just as good as reading a magazine, only the pictures move! So don't be too attached to the idea that this is just marketing fluff. The lack of H.264 support is a definite weakness. What about encoding features of the smedia chips ? The day there will be a camera on the neo... Unless you're encoding a long run of video, I don't think this is a major issue. If you are, yeah, hardware encoding for H.264 sounds like a great idea. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors
On 8 Sep 2007, at 17:55, Fabien wrote: On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Can you remember of any free software product that became ergonomically mature before several years of ironing? Me neither, and Apple knows that as well. That's because most open source projects just reuse existing software and write very little. Code reuse is good but sometimes you need to make major changes to a project to make it integrate nicely with your product. But this often doesn't happen as it makes updating to the latest version a lot of work. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors
On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It just occurred to me that Apple's price cut may have nothing to do with > lagging sales [...] $399 iphones are highly detrimental to the success of > the Neo1973. > They're after Google, not Neo IMO. Can you remember of any free software product that became ergonomically mature before several years of ironing? Me neither, and Apple knows that as well. Neo keeps a key advantage over iPhone: a real SDK. Someday iPhone is likely to catch up, but more worryingly, Google is likely to produce a phone OS which is SDK enabled from day one. An HTC phone running a decent linux-based OS developed by Google: *that* would be a serious competitor for iPhone, and a likely openmoko killer. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On 8 Sep 2007, at 14:47, OJW wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2007 14:17, Giles Jones wrote: I don't see how pressing three keys for one letter is faster than predictive? As a contrived example, try typing "http://example.com/~user"; using predictive text For URLs you're best providing a custom method for entry yes. For the web you can have a www button and a combo with .com, .co.uk, .org and others which the user can predefine. You minimise typing that way and T9 does work for the domain name, you can hold a button to produce a list of symbols (Windows Mobile does this, it works quite well). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
la, 2007-09-08 kello 13:00 +0100, Ian Stirling kirjoitti: > At least on trivial tests I did - it seemed to play youtube videos just > fine on mplayer at 320*240. Indeed. Software playing will probably take a bit more power, sure, but that aside, the Neo's youtube capabilities already partially exceed (*sigh* at the obligatory comparison) the iPhone's. (At least from what I've heard the latter has access to a limited subset of videos transcoded to H.264 spesifically for Apple.) There are some scaling and rotation issues (what with them requiring CPU power), but those can presumably be hw-assisted on the GTA-02 GPU anyway. 'course, a simple GUI for youtube playing will be required (prior to gnash being workable on the Neo, and perhaps preferrable phone-UI-wise afterwards too). Using youtube-dl and mplayer, shouldn't be a big project. Not that interested in youtube myself, though. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On 15:47:15 2007-09-08 OJW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Saturday 08 September 2007 14:17, Giles Jones wrote: > > I don't see how pressing three keys for one letter is faster than > > predictive? > > > Remember that browser URL bars, and Bash (to name two apps) already > support their own autocomplete. A predictive-text keyboard would need > to integrate with the browser history, or the bash-history to get good > matches, rather than using the facilities which are already there. If > you're SSH on another machine, or entering text into a > AJAX-autocompleting webpage, then the keyboard program may not even > have access to the relevant dictionary. > > Hmm I've recently started using http://www.exideas.com on my palm and I must say it's a great improvement over both grafiti or a virtual keyboard... -- Andraž "ruskie" Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On Saturday 08 September 2007 14:17, Giles Jones wrote: > I don't see how pressing three keys for one letter is faster than > predictive? As a contrived example, try typing "http://example.com/~user"; using predictive text (obviously some other method would be default for emails and memos and anything else that's mostly dictionary-words) On my phone, the ":" character is "options, insert options, insert symbol, down, right, right, right, right, use", i.e. 9 or 17 keypresses instead of 2. Remember that browser URL bars, and Bash (to name two apps) already support their own autocomplete. A predictive-text keyboard would need to integrate with the browser history, or the bash-history to get good matches, rather than using the facilities which are already there. If you're SSH on another machine, or entering text into a AJAX-autocompleting webpage, then the keyboard program may not even have access to the relevant dictionary. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On 8 Sep 2007, at 14:01, OJW wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2007 13:44, Thomas Gstädtner wrote: Interesting concept, but I can't see an advantage to the standard numeric keypads. Maybe you can enlighten me? :) Compared to the standard "444 for I, for S"-type of keypad, it's ease of learning/remembering the keystrokes (based on visual shapes of the letters, rather than arbitrarily splitting-up the alphabet). Maybe it's only me who has difficulty remembering those without looking at the keypad. Thing is there are 26 characters in the alphabet and 10 digits, that's a lot of shapes to remember. The Graffiti (TM) input method used some special characters, but many of the shapes were the same. I don't see how pressing three keys for one letter is faster than predictive? Adding it as an input option is fine, but make T9 the default as people know it, you don't want to add any obstacles to usability by not having familiar tried and tested input methods available. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On Saturday 08 September 2007 13:44, Thomas Gstädtner wrote: > Interesting concept, but I can't see an advantage to the standard numeric > keypads. > Maybe you can enlighten me? :) Compared to the standard "444 for I, for S"-type of keypad, it's ease of learning/remembering the keystrokes (based on visual shapes of the letters, rather than arbitrarily splitting-up the alphabet). Maybe it's only me who has difficulty remembering those without looking at the keypad. Compared to predictive text input, it works with source-code, symbols, names, bash commands etc., i.e. anything that's not prose text. So for complex input, it might beat T9 because you don't need to change keyboards every time you want a symbol or a number. It also doesn't need a display like predictive text, since you don't need to display and choose between alternate completions. (hence the possibility of a completely transparent keyboard) I'll try adding a characters-per-minute to the page (or someone else could -- it's only javascript) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
On 8 Sep 2007, at 13:30, OJW wrote: Just playing with another idea for text-entry: http://almien.co.uk/Keypad/ The idea is to be able to type mixed letters / numbers / symbols / control-characters without having to look at the screen when typing. It takes a while to pick-up, but should be easy to use once you see how it works. Only implemented as a javascript demo for now, but imagine it as finger-app (perhaps transparently overlaid on an application). Only tested on firefox, sorry! Regards, OJW I can see what you are trying to do, but can you provide any figures on text entry speed. The reason I ask it I believe there's no way that your method will be any faster than T9. T9 persists for a good reason, it's fast and proven. Anything new has to be faster and easier to use. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another keypad idea
Interesting concept, but I can't see an advantage to the standard numeric keypads. Maybe you can enlighten me? :) 2007/9/8, OJW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Just playing with another idea for text-entry: > > http://almien.co.uk/Keypad/ > > The idea is to be able to type mixed letters / numbers / symbols / > control-characters without having to look at the screen when typing. It > takes a while to pick-up, but should be easy to use once you see how it > works. > > Only implemented as a javascript demo for now, but imagine it as > finger-app > (perhaps transparently overlaid on an application). Only tested on > firefox, > sorry! > > Regards, > > OJW > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Yet another keypad idea
Just playing with another idea for text-entry: http://almien.co.uk/Keypad/ The idea is to be able to type mixed letters / numbers / symbols / control-characters without having to look at the screen when typing. It takes a while to pick-up, but should be easy to use once you see how it works. Only implemented as a javascript demo for now, but imagine it as finger-app (perhaps transparently overlaid on an application). Only tested on firefox, sorry! Regards, OJW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
Florent THIERY wrote: It doesn't. It does one of the simpler MPEG-4 profiles, don't recall the details. (One of the S-Media models does H.264, but no VGA.) Can't really feel much pain for that, personally. Personally i do a bit, since online video is moving towards ubiquitous h264 (in Flash player for desktops, or with dedicated chips in f.e. appleTV or mobile phones). But who really wants to check out youtube videos in the subway ? Marketing, marketing... At least on trivial tests I did - it seemed to play youtube videos just fine on mplayer at 320*240. This will presumably mean that it needs 50%ish of CPU at 400Mhz. Which isn't utterly horrible battery life, just horrible. 4-5 hours? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
Florent THIERY wrote: > Personally i do a bit, since online video is moving towards ubiquitous > h264 (in Flash player for desktops, or with dedicated chips in f.e. > appleTV or mobile phones). But who really wants to check out youtube > videos in the subway ? Marketing, marketing... Not youtube, but I often watch Google Eng.EDU videos on the bus to work on my Nokia N800, and would do so on my Neo in the future. With earplugs of course ... -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video decoding in GTA-02
> It doesn't. It does one of the simpler MPEG-4 profiles, don't recall the > details. (One of the S-Media models does H.264, but no VGA.) > > Can't really feel much pain for that, personally. Personally i do a bit, since online video is moving towards ubiquitous h264 (in Flash player for desktops, or with dedicated chips in f.e. appleTV or mobile phones). But who really wants to check out youtube videos in the subway ? Marketing, marketing... What about encoding features of the smedia chips ? The day there will be a camera on the neo... Who knows if the next neo won't use something like http://3dlabs.com/content/productOverview.asp ;) Flo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
