Re: Packaging third-party applications (Was: Meta Toolchain Release (2008 May))

[nickd]

What music applications would you be sharing?

-nick

Jay Vaughan wrote:
>> I thought the Openmoko developer community would want to better than 
>> that ...
>
>
>
> Whats missing IMHO is a "Repository Leadership" clique, wherein a 
> known group of people are responsible for some nice repositories that 
> end-users might find interesting .. If I could easily add a few sites 
> to my Freerunner, I would.  And I'd watch them for regular updates too.
>
> For example, I'm considering firing up an Openmoko repository - known 
> and public - for music apps for the OpenMoko suite ..
>
> ;
> -- 
> Jay Vaughan
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Packaging third-party applications (Was: Meta Toolchain Release (2008 May))

[Dylan Semler]

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I thought the Openmoko developer community would want to better than that
>> ...
>>
>
>
>
> Whats missing IMHO is a "Repository Leadership" clique, wherein a known
> group of people are responsible for some nice repositories that end-users
> might find interesting .. If I could easily add a few sites to my
> Freerunner, I would.  And I'd watch them for regular updates too.
>
> For example, I'm considering firing up an Openmoko repository - known and
> public - for music apps for the OpenMoko suite ..
>

But why do you want to promote these separate channels and avenues for
obtaining software?  Wouldn't it be better to include these music apps in a
main repository?  In Fedora, the multitude of repositories for downloading
packages has caused nightmares of "dependency hell" when users install from
two or more repos that carry some of the same package.

The most user-friendly solution is one location that holds all the apps a
user could want, one place for them to look, one place to maintain.
Branching repositories should be avoided as much as possible.

Submitting packages to OE is like contributing upstream.  It makes the most
out of your contribution.

-- 
Type faster. Use Dvorak:
http://dvzine.org
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>> And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
>>> beggars the imagination.
>> I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.
> 
> and google earth

No, Google Earth is a native Qt application... Only Picasa uses wine.

-- 
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: screenshots

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?
> 
> Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both environments 
> interact graphically.

There are some pics and videos by Einstein from freeyourphone.de:
  - http://tinyurl.com/66ktzl
  - http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=freeyourphone&p=r
  - http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM

Bye

-- 
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http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: screenshots

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:44 PM, andy selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/6/3 Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.
>
> I was hoping that a Freerunner owner would post some ASU screenies on
> that site in future
>
> 2008/6/3  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> In essense I was looking for pictures that give me an Idea of the OM user
>> experience to drool over :)
>
> If you've got a neo1973, you can flash a qtopia on x11 image from
> http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/?C=M;O=D
> It has limited apps but I did make a call using it.
> Not sure how close it is to the ASU

That IS the ASU. :D The Openmoko-qtopia-x11 images are the ASU. The
only difference is that the first one had a few apps that have since
been removed because new ones will be written or those functionalities
will be integrated into existing apps.

>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:15:05 -0700 "Steven Kurylo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> > Google does contribute to various open source projects, but they sure as
> > hell don't seem to drink the punch.
> >
> > Thanks for the info, that completely defines my view of Android.
> 
> The kernel still uses the GPL, so they have to respect that.  However
> the new hardware drivers could be done the same way nvidia does it.
> 
> They said their custom software will all use the apache license.  So a
> phone carrier could take the software stack, close the source, and add
> their custom bits on top leaving you with a system thats just as
> closed as the current phones.  It will be interesting to see what
> happens.

what a lot of people miss is - a lot of important "drivers" can and do get done
in userspace - graphics (x) for example. gsm etc. (you need to talk to a serial
device - but the protocol specs may or may not be published - in our case its
a standard at commandset - but it may not be). same with a lot of usb devices -
they may register as a device - but how to make it do things - requires knowing
the higher level protocol. sure. debugging/reverse engineering the info out of
it would become easier, but - it doesn't need to be in the kernel and thus can
be any license you like, so there are many ways to avoid the kernel's gpl. not
for all things - but quite possibly for key important things (gsm or graphics
or input devices etc.).

> > And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
> > beggars the imagination.
> 
> I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.

and google earth

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Packaging third-party applications (Was: Meta Toolchain Release (2008 May))

[Rod Whitby]

Werner Almesberger wrote:
> Rod Whitby wrote:
>> And therein starts the decline of Openmoko application availability into  
>> the poor practices of the windows world ...
> 
> ;-) It's really two different usage scenarios: one is the "nice and tidy
> distribution", the other is getting something to build and, sometimes,
> to disseminate it quickly.

Fully agree.  The problem occurs when the "quick and dirty" 
dissemination to other developers and alpha testers evolves into being 
the main end-user distribution channel.  The quick and dirty will happen 
by default, so someone needs to continue to push towards the "nice and 
tidy distribution" if it's to happen at all and not degenerate into chaos.

> While there are people who indeed have the angelic patience to work in
> distribution mode all the time, for most of us, this is just too much
> pain and overhead. (Hi Andy ;-)
 >
> Also, having a toolchain that makes it easy to cross-build from sources
> will help a lot towards people not even wanting to download pre-built
> binaries.

Fully agree.

There will also be people (including resellers of application specific 
turnkey solutions involving openmoko hardware) who will want to select a 
set of applications for a custom rootfs build.

If application developers want their software to ever be part of a 
custom installation, or to even be part of the standard factory build 
that openmoko installs, then it's in their interest to learn how to 
package their software in the official distribution system ...

-- Rod

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Re: Packaging third-party applications (Was: Meta Toolchain Release (2008 May))

[Werner Almesberger]

Rod Whitby wrote:
> And therein starts the decline of Openmoko application availability into  
> the poor practices of the windows world ...

;-) It's really two different usage scenarios: one is the "nice and tidy
distribution", the other is getting something to build and, sometimes,
to disseminate it quickly.

While there are people who indeed have the angelic patience to work in
distribution mode all the time, for most of us, this is just too much
pain and overhead. (Hi Andy ;-)

Also, having a toolchain that makes it easy to cross-build from sources
will help a lot towards people not even wanting to download pre-built
binaries.

- Werner

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Re: Meta Toolchain Release (2008 May)

[Werner Almesberger]

John Lee wrote:
> opkg-target update
> opkg-target install libjana-dev

Sure beats the manual approach :-)

A little while ago, I built a program that uses SDL, and this is what
I came up with:

for n in \
  libsdl-1.2-0_1.2.9-r5_armv4t.ipk libsdl-1.2-dev_1.2.9-r5_armv4t.ipk \
  libsdl-ttf_2.0.3-r0_armv4t.ipk libsdl-ttf-dev_2.0.3-r0_armv4t.ipk \
  libsdl-mixer-1.2-0_1.2.6-r2_armv4t.ipk \
  libsdl-mixer-1.2-dev_1.2.6-r2_armv4t.ipk \
  libasound2_1.0.15-r0_armv4t.ipk libmikmod_3.2.0-beta2-r0_armv4t.ipk \
  libogg0_1.1-r3_armv4t.ipk libvorbis_1.0.1-r2_armv4t.ipk; do
wget http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/ipk/armv4t/$n
ar x $n
( cd /usr/local/openmoko/arm/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi;
  tar --strip-components=2 -xzf -; ) http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

Re: screenshots

[andy selby]

2008/6/3 Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.

I was hoping that a Freerunner owner would post some ASU screenies on
that site in future

2008/6/3  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> In essense I was looking for pictures that give me an Idea of the OM user
> experience to drool over :)

If you've got a neo1973, you can flash a qtopia on x11 image from
http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/?C=M;O=D
It has limited apps but I did make a call using it.
Not sure how close it is to the ASU

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Lee Grime]

Ahem!

See the response to my 'OPEN HARDWARE' e.g SoC post the other day!

Some of you need to climb out of your softie comfort zone!

On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 15:06 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> 
> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> interest :)
> 
> > Seen this?
> > 
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
> > http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
> > 
> > "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
> > containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
> > processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
> > (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
> > dime.
> > 
> > The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
> > Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
> > anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
> > HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
> > 
> > It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
> > you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
> > integrates the GPU.
> > 
> > -- 
> > H. Lally Singh
> > Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> > Virginia Tech
> > 
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> 


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RE: Wisdom of crowds - the update

[Lee Grime]

Steve,

You are assuming that neo customers follow a 1st order model.  2nd order
would be +10x -5x +3x -1 sinc function.

On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 10:34 -0700, steve wrote:
> well I am a big fan of the wisdom of crowds. 
> 
>  
> 
> I am a big fan of the army of davids
> 
>  
> 
> That said, I also understand the limitations of these methods.
> 
>  
> 
> My method is brutally numeric. this is my training. You begin with a
> demand forecast. Lets say “X per week.”
> 
>  
> 
> actually, it’s more sophisticated than that since products go through
> an initial SURGE and then they settle into
> 
> a regular run rate. For example. at launch you might see  10X units
> per week for 1-3 weeks, and then it would 
> 
> taper off to 5X, 3X, 1X.  Engineers here will recognize this response
> function. response to a impulse.
> 
>  
> 
> basically I track the data on weekly basis and use that to guess  the
> entire demand curve. more data equals better estimate.
> 
>  
> 
> When a product hits the run rate ( linear) part of the demand curve,
> then a monkey can do the math. hey boss I sold 1 million
> 
> last month. I bet  I’ll sell a million next month!” thanks monkey.
> here’s a banana.
> 
>  
> 
> The big risk is the guessing the intitial impulse. make sense? 
> 
>  
> 
> The other thing that everybody misses is the markets they don’t know
> about.
> 
>  
> 
> I have a forecast for Linux Mobile developers. Call that number X.
> 
>  
> 
> Then I get a call from University XYZ. they want Neo.
> 
> Then I get a call from medical company PDQ. they want Neos.
> 
>  
> 
> and the list goes on. adjust demand curves.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> So the crowd guessed 4000 GTA01? for linux developers only?
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> pretty damn close. But supply constraints biased  the result.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>
> __
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JW
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:24 PM
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Wisdom of crowds - the update
> 
> 
>  
> 
> hi steve & community
> 
> once upon a time a long, long time ago tim kersten set up a site to
> track "the wisdom of crowds" [1] with regard to the question "how many
> freerunners will FIC sell in the first two months"
> 
> the answer can be seen here (click the stats tab)
> http://openmoko.hobby-site.com/ and is remarkably consistent at a
> median value of 4000 after over 1000 people voted.In fact this
> number has stayed very close to 4000 since the low hundreds of votes.
> 
> so are you going to ask the webshop/pulster/trisoft/whoever to keep
> track of the real number for you?  .after all, if it turns out to
> be accurate you can use this method for planning your next product!
> 
> and are you going to tell us how accurate it was :-) ?
> 
> actually the rules for the "wisdom of a crowd" to be accurate demand
> that each guess is independent. and here we have a little
> pollution in that it is possible for you to see others votes before
> you vote yourself (although many will not have bothered)
> 
> anyway it gave us something to do while you folks were busy making
> phones
> 
> i reckon it saved at least 12 useless messages to list by frustrated
> geeks..  (and oops  created only 9 more)
> 
> actually next time we could always use it to guess the release date
> for son of freerunner 
> 
> jw
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
> 
> 
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Re: screenshots

[wim . delvaux]

In essense I was looking for pictures that give me an Idea of the OM user
experience to drool over :)

CU
W

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Re: screenshots

[Alexander Frøyseth]

NICE pics :D

Kevin Dean skrev:

I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.

You can see some basic ones here
http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-1.png
and http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-2.png

You can find a semi-reliable working concept
http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf

Though, in truth, the ASU is still under heavy development and as such
the UI is composed of several independant elements that will, as time
does, be blended into a more consistant interface.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Rahul Joshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Don't know about other sites, but this one particularly comes to mind -
http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html

Rahul J

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi all,

is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?

Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both
environments
interact graphically.

Thx
W


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Steven Kurylo]

> Google does contribute to various open source projects, but they sure as
> hell don't seem to drink the punch.
>
> Thanks for the info, that completely defines my view of Android.

The kernel still uses the GPL, so they have to respect that.  However
the new hardware drivers could be done the same way nvidia does it.

They said their custom software will all use the apache license.  So a
phone carrier could take the software stack, close the source, and add
their custom bits on top leaving you with a system thats just as
closed as the current phones.  It will be interesting to see what
happens.

> And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
> beggars the imagination.

I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.

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Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode

[ian douglas]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> although maybe windows doesn't allow to download files from 
 > media players and may not allow to upload on cameras.

XP SP2 connects my Sony DSC-V3 camera as a camera device, but 
ultimately, at the system level, is treated as a removable storage 
device -- I can copy photos (or other files though I can't view them) 
back onto the camera.

-id

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[thomasg]

No, you got me wrong in some points. I was talking about Picasa, Google
Earth and the other Google software.
The android SDK is widely open source, so there's nothing wrong about it.
They don't have a chance to push a proprietary SDK out, because nobody would
ever use it as there is no product yet.
But the SDK is only an SDK - it does not and will not contain new drivers
that the vendors use for their hardware. It will not be used to deploy a
kind of distribution or images like Openmoko (OpenEmbedded) does. It is a
SDK to deploy your applications on the platform, be it closed (and you can
be sure there: it will be in a wide area) or not, in the terms google or the
vendor likes.
With the effort I meant, that android uses GPL only where it is absolutely
necessary (linux kernel and so) and use own commercial licenses (at least
for now, but the promised to release them under an OSS license, believe them
or not) and licenses with far less restrictions (MPL, BSD and so on) that
allows the vendors or deployers to keep their stuff based on it closed.

On the other hand google is really supporting FOSS-software. Best example is
of course GSoC what is a really good thing (even if it's clear that it also
has a purpose for google, but that doesn't matter in the end) and may not be
left out of this discussion.

All I want to say: Android is _not_ an alternative to Openmoko - at least
not for people that care about absolute openness and freedom.



On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Wow, I didn't know that.
>
> Google does contribute to various open source projects, but they sure as
> hell don't seem to drink the punch.
>
> Thanks for the info, that completely defines my view of Android.
>
> And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
> beggars the imagination.
>
> - Rob
>
> Rahul Joshi wrote:
> > +1
> > Just the kind of thing I want to hear.
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Robert Schuster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > thomasg schrieb:
> > > And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new
> > > devices to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
> > > Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save
> > costs.
> > > They didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as
> > opensource -
> > > hell, they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
> > > Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees,
> nothing
> > > else (and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible
> > for closed
> > > source and vendors).
> > Thats it.
> >
> > Regards
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > 
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: Wisdom of crowds - the update

[JW]

2008/6/3 steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>  So the crowd guessed 4000 GTA01? for linux developers only?
>
> nope it was 4000 gta02 in the first 2 months from sale date in total

(that was the posed question)

good to hear about all the niche / large purchaser interest coming through

jw
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Re: [OT] GPG Message signing / Keyservers

[Andy Powell]

On Tuesday 03 June 2008 10:45, Kosa wrote:
> Yep, they automagically spread all over the world :)
> It might take some days, but it does.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Kosa

Thanks ( x 3 ;) )
-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode

[martin-o23533]

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:53:29AM -0700, Matt Mets wrote:
> I believe this has been discussed at some point, but there is a 
> file-storage module that emulates a mass storage device:
> http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/file_storage.html
> 
> I don't see it included in the preview ASU package, but it should be 
> trivial to build separately.
> 
> The issue (that I see, anyway) is that it requires exclusive access to 
> the drive that it uses for the storage.  

I think we could get around with pretending to be a digital camera / media
player instead. IIRC the protocol prefered by windows for these is more
like a file server protocol (i.e. commands at file level) although maybe
windows doesn't allow to download files from media players and may not
allow to upload on cameras.
But that should get around the exclusive access problem.

Also there could be an image file which is shared via USB storage so no
need to unmount the SD card.

 - Martin

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

Wow, I didn't know that.

Google does contribute to various open source projects, but they sure as 
hell don't seem to drink the punch.

Thanks for the info, that completely defines my view of Android.

And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that 
beggars the imagination.

- Rob

Rahul Joshi wrote:
> +1
> Just the kind of thing I want to hear.
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Robert Schuster <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> thomasg schrieb:
> > And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new
> > devices to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
> > Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save
> costs.
> > They didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as
> opensource -
> > hell, they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
> > Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees, nothing
> > else (and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible
> for closed
> > source and vendors).
> Thats it.
>
> Regards
> Robert
>
>
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>
> 
>
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Re: screenshots

[Kevin Dean]

I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.

You can see some basic ones here
http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-1.png
and http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-2.png

You can find a semi-reliable working concept
http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf

Though, in truth, the ASU is still under heavy development and as such
the UI is composed of several independant elements that will, as time
does, be blended into a more consistant interface.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Rahul Joshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don't know about other sites, but this one particularly comes to mind -
> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html
>
> Rahul J
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?
>>
>> Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both
>> environments
>> interact graphically.
>>
>> Thx
>> W
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
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>
>

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RE: QTopia Contacts issue

[steve]

Sounds like a nice idea. write some code.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:35 AM
To: OpenMoko
Subject: QTopia Contacts issue

Now that I have so many contacts, it would be nice if you had more 
control over the list format. The only choices I see (under 
Options->Display Settings) are "First Last or Company" and
"Last,First or Company". I'd like to see an option that allowed company 
names and person names to be intermixed, so I had one big alphabetical 
list.

Should this kind of thing go to the QTopia mailing list or forums, or 
should we still post general QTopia issues found under OM to this list?

Thanks
Ian Darwin

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RE: Wisdom of crowds - the update

[steve]

well I am a big fan of the wisdom of crowds. 

 

I am a big fan of the army of davids

 

That said, I also understand the limitations of these methods.

 

My method is brutally numeric. this is my training. You begin with a demand
forecast. Lets say "X per week."

 

actually, it's more sophisticated than that since products go through an
initial SURGE and then they settle into

a regular run rate. For example. at launch you might see  10X units per week
for 1-3 weeks, and then it would 

taper off to 5X, 3X, 1X.  Engineers here will recognize this response
function. response to a impulse.

 

basically I track the data on weekly basis and use that to guess  the entire
demand curve. more data equals better estimate.

 

When a product hits the run rate ( linear) part of the demand curve, then a
monkey can do the math. hey boss I sold 1 million

last month. I bet  I'll sell a million next month!" thanks monkey. here's a
banana.

 

The big risk is the guessing the intitial impulse. make sense? 

 

The other thing that everybody misses is the markets they don't know about.

 

I have a forecast for Linux Mobile developers. Call that number X.

 

Then I get a call from University XYZ. they want Neo.

Then I get a call from medical company PDQ. they want Neos.

 

and the list goes on. adjust demand curves.

 

 

So the crowd guessed 4000 GTA01? for linux developers only?

 

 

pretty damn close. But supply constraints biased  the result.

 

 

 

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JW
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:24 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Wisdom of crowds - the update

 

hi steve & community

once upon a time a long, long time ago tim kersten set up a site to track
"the wisdom of crowds" [1] with regard to the question "how many freerunners
will FIC sell in the first two months"

the answer can be seen here (click the stats tab)
http://openmoko.hobby-site.com/ and is remarkably consistent at a median
value of 4000 after over 1000 people voted.In fact this number has
stayed very close to 4000 since the low hundreds of votes.

so are you going to ask the webshop/pulster/trisoft/whoever to keep track of
the real number for you?  .after all, if it turns out to be accurate you
can use this method for planning your next product!

and are you going to tell us how accurate it was :-) ?

actually the rules for the "wisdom of a crowd" to be accurate demand that
each guess is independent. and here we have a little pollution in that
it is possible for you to see others votes before you vote yourself
(although many will not have bothered)

anyway it gave us something to do while you folks were busy making
phones

i reckon it saved at least 12 useless messages to list by frustrated
geeks..  (and oops  created only 9 more)

actually next time we could always use it to guess the release date for son
of freerunner 

jw

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

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Re: screenshots

[andy selby]

> is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?
>
> Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both environments
> interact graphically.

None there at the moment, but you might want to keep an eye on
scap.linuxtogo.org

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Rahul Joshi]

+1
Just the kind of thing I want to hear.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Robert Schuster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> thomasg schrieb:
> > And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new
> > devices to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
> > Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save costs.
> > They didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as opensource -
> > hell, they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
> > Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees, nothing
> > else (and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible for closed
> > source and vendors).
> Thats it.
>
> Regards
> Robert
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Joachim Steiger]

Stroller wrote:
> Yeah, but you're the guys who can just slip the odd extra chip into  
> the design without anyone else noticing.   ;)

don't think so ;)

> If questioned just tell management that Classic FM is required to  
> soothe the kernel penguins.

well.. it adds power, space and cost and complexity to the whole thing.
and quite ugly rf validation and eventually even certification
requirements depending on where you plan to sell it i guess ;)

it was already discussed in detail last year i think.

to sum it up: OM does know that _some_ people want a fm radio.
same as for electronic (magnetic) compass, a rfid transceiver/nfc stuff,
embedded micro-beamers, fm transmitters, dvb-t/h receivers, dab/drm
receivers etc. or a camera.
others again do not want some parts with a reason (price, size, usage
constraints (some companies forbid entering with a cameraphone)

we just need to make the best out of it for all involved parties:
* om needs to build and sell hardware
* the community wants to get a device which is not vaporvare and not in
development forever.

so we need to find a nice compromise and be careful what to add, in
which configuration and for which product to please us all (the
community when it comes to features and availability as well as price
and size) and om in the cause to survive by building real free and open
designs.

not easy all the time, but i think it helps us all, if everybody knows
that its 'not that easy' to add some part just like that, but hard work.
to find components we can and want use, which are available and please
om as well as the community due to price, availability, features and
size AND open documentations or drivers is sometimes very time consuming.

as for fm.. its kinda borderline for me, (personally, not that my
opinion counts more than yours) since i never listen to fm radio anymore.
its more important to have the 3.5 mm jack for reasonable headphones,
and a solid and good quality audio electronics in front of that, for me.
lets all thank joerg, that he has already taken care of that ;)
kudos.

regards


-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Re: Top Content page view of wiki

[Kosa]

You're right, you're. Icedove satands for Thunderbird
as Iceweasel stands for Firefox.

Thanks

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

Joe Pfeiffer escribió:

  kosa writes:

  
  
I myself use Icedove, wich is some kind of Debian 
fork of Firefox (somehow firefox logos and others 
were not "free enough" and the Debian team decided 
to use the source and but not the name. It was funny 
they named Icedove after Firefox). Anyway, I wonder 
if the engine registers  my borwser as Firefox, as 
Mozilla, as Mozilla Compatible Agent o just as Icedove.

  
  
Don't you mean iceweasel?

The name change wasn't debian's idea:  Mozilla decided that they
didn't want their trademark used without doing a review of all of
debian's patches; debian didn't want to put up with that, so they
changed the name.

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Re: Top Content page view of wiki

[Tilman Baumann]

Could you please configure your Thunderbird mailer to send html AND 
plaintext!?
And why did you change Thunderbirds default setting in the first place?

Html is usually completely useless and very bad taste. (ad multipart 
alternative)
But pure html ist just offensively stupid.

PLONK


-- 
Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus.
Please print this mail only on recycled paper.

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RE: What will be shipped with FreeRunner?

[steve]

I'll ship the fancy laser styli at the begining and then I will switch to a
plastic version.

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vinc Duran
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:40 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: What will be shipped with FreeRunner?


And should we really expect those expensive looking laser styli? Styluses...


On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Alexander Frøyseth
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hello
What is going to be shipped with the FreeRunner, in single and 10 packs
Are the headset in the box?

Alexander Frøyseth

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Schuster]

Hi.

thomasg schrieb:
> And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new
> devices to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
> Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save costs.
> They didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as opensource -
> hell, they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
> Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees, nothing
> else (and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible for closed
> source and vendors).
Thats it.

Regards
Robert



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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Schuster]

Hi.

flexd schrieb:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>>
>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
>> interest :)
>>   
> 
> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or 
> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i 
> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
/non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
gfx people care much more.

> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd 
> love it!
Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.

Regards
Robert



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Re: screenshots

[Rahul Joshi]

Don't know about other sites, but this one particularly comes to mind -
http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html

Rahul J

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?
>
> Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both
> environments
> interact graphically.
>
> Thx
> W
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:51 AM, flexd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>>
>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
>> interest :)
>>
>
> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.

I'm not a programmer, but I have to fully disagree with you. Carsten
IS a hacker, and I trust that if the source code where devouring
children that he'd make it public. If not him then Zeke, or if not
him... Me not being able to program it doesn't mean that someone else
who cares can't. That's a level of trust that I gain from Free
Software, and I'd not change that.

>
> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
> love it!
>
> I want the ability to change everything, but having a different cpu/gpu
> driver isnt exactly a high priority. Ofcourse this would be great, but a
> closed driver will do fine if my phone can have specs as good as that!

I think about that more and more (I traded a quad core Opteron system
with 10 GB of RAM for an Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 so that I could use
the GPLed Intel 3D driver (before I leanrned that GLX was technically
non-free). The more I think on it, the more I realize that a non-free
firmware on the system mainboard actually scares me a bit MORE than a
non-free application in userspace. Not only that, but how in the HELL
can you call a project "Openmoko" with a tagline of "Free your phone"
and then turn your back on openness and freedom?


>
> Regards
>
> Kristoffer
>>
>>> Seen this?
>>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
>>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
>>>
>>> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
>>> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
>>> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
>>> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
>>> dime.
>>>
>>> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
>>> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
>>> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
>>> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
>>>
>>> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
>>> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
>>> integrates the GPU.
>>>
>>> --
>>> H. Lally Singh
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>>> Virginia Tech
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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screenshots

[wim . delvaux]

Hi all,

is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?

Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both environments 
interact graphically.

Thx
W


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:54:20 -0400 "Kevin Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> With Nouveau, wouldn't it give a future device video performance that
> equals or surpasses the current XGlamo?

who says that the chip even resembles the desktop ones in terms of how it can
be driven? just because it bears the same brandname does not mean it has the
same register api etc. etc. :) not to mention that the hardware specs as such
are not open - nor even available under nda for the purpose of writing open
drivers - which leaves the long painful road of reverse engineering and taking
what you can get - if/when you can get it... if ever... :)

again - without the details and specs it's all speculation... and without
them... it's not open :)

> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 3:06 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > babbled:
> >
> > the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> > interest :)
> >
> >> Seen this?
> >>
> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
> >> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
> >>
> >> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
> >> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
> >> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
> >> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
> >> dime.
> >>
> >> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
> >> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
> >> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
> >> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
> >>
> >> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
> >> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
> >> integrates the GPU.
> >>
> >> --
> >> H. Lally Singh
> >> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> >> Virginia Tech
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Openmoko community mailing list
> >> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 
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-- 
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Paul Wouters]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, flexd wrote:

> > the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> > interest :)
> >
>
> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
>
> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
> love it!

You get the phone. It crashes. You report the bug. Opensource developers
tell you "it's the nvidia driver, we cannot do anything". Then what?

Thank you openmoko for your stance on using ONLY opensource drivers for
open hardware specs.

> I want the ability to change everything, but having a different cpu/gpu
> driver isnt exactly a high priority. Ofcourse this would be great, but a
> closed driver will do fine if my phone can have specs as good as that!

It won't. Vendor lock will lead to closed phones. If I wanted that, I
would already own an iphone.

Paul

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[thomasg]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> With Nouveau, wouldn't it give a future device video performance that
> equals or surpasses the current XGlamo?


 Well, taking the fact that softwarerendering on a 266 MHz arm9 device is
faster than the current XGlamo - yeah, it shouldn't be that hard. :)
The problem will be, that neither noveau, nor nv will support this gpu.
There are some other mobile/embedded graphic chips from nvidia out there,
but none has to do anything with the desktop chips.
Another point is, that it will probably be extremely hard to write an
FOSS-driver for this and even more, that nvidia might not even release a
binary one for Linux. They target WinCE - only (at least for the moment).
I'm pretty sure nobody who likes Openmoko would like such hardware.

And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new devices
to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save costs. They
didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as opensource - hell,
they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees, nothing else
(and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible for closed source
and vendors).
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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Stroller]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 15:15, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:

> ... we at EE are not deciding on key features of future products, we
> are provided with specs on what to design.

Yeah, but you're the guys who can just slip the odd extra chip into  
the design without anyone else noticing.   ;)

If questioned just tell management that Classic FM is required to  
soothe the kernel penguins.

Stroller.


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Re: Top Content page view of wiki

[Joe Pfeiffer]

kosa writes:

>I myself use Icedove, wich is some kind of Debian 
>fork of Firefox (somehow firefox logos and others 
>were not "free enough" and the Debian team decided 
>to use the source and but not the name. It was funny 
>they named Icedove after Firefox). Anyway, I wonder 
>if the engine registers  my borwser as Firefox, as 
>Mozilla, as Mozilla Compatible Agent o just as Icedove.

Don't you mean iceweasel?

The name change wasn't debian's idea:  Mozilla decided that they
didn't want their trademark used without doing a review of all of
debian's patches; debian didn't want to put up with that, so they
changed the name.

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Joerg Reisenweber]

I'm just working on improving the schematics (like quite some other guys of OM 
staff), but we at EE are not deciding on key features of future products, we 
are provided with specs on what to design.
Anyway your suggestions and requests will be noticed when posted in this list.

cheers
jOERG


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Re: Which gsmd will be used in future openmoko?

[Bin Chen]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 June 2008 12:51:04 Bin Chen wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
>>
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > By the way, this would be more suitable on openmoko-devel in my
>> > opinion...
>> >
>> > On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:35:39 Bin Chen wrote:
>> >> As discussed before, seems there is 3 gsmd outstanding...
>> >
>> > Actually, it's worse. We have 5 options :)
>> >
>> >> gsmd, gsmd2, ophoned
>> >
>> > Qtopia, pygsmd
>> >
>> >> Which one is going to be the default gsm daemon in openmoko?
>> >
>> > This is hard to tell right now. It depends on how the role / maintenance
>> > / importance of the three available image types (Gtk, Qtopia/EFL,
>> > Framework/Zhone) evolve over the next couple of months.
>> >
>> > If we're interested in application developers using telephony without
>> > locking them into a language or toolkit, then we rather chose something
>> > with a dbus interface. This rules out Qtopia and gsmd. pygsmd is Michael
>> > Dietrich's rapid prototyping gsm server for API experiments. This leaves
>> > gsmd2 and ophoned -- both sharing most of their API (which is still
>> > evolving, but will stabilize over the next few weeks), so if you start
>> > developing against one of these two, you can't be wrong.
>> >
>> > I personally vote for ophoned, since it's my baby ;)
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> From the git repos of freesmartphone.org, there is only a ophoned
>> written by python, the module name is python-ophoned. So I wonder if
>> there is another ophoned written in C or else?
>
> Unclear at this point of time. We're going to focus on the python
> implementation to get to a dbus API as soon as possible, so that people can
> start writing applications on top of that.
>
> Once the python implementation is finished, we're going to profile and check
> whether we actually need to rewrite it in a compiled language. If not, we're
> finished. If so, we'll probably first replace the bottlenecks with compiled
> extension modules. If that still doesn't help, we will consider a
> reimplementation in Vala, C, or C++.
>
Thank you very much for your kind help!!

Bin

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Re: FoxyTag

[Kyle Gordon]

Kevin Dean wrote:
> If you're speeding, you're already breaking the law. Good people have
> an ethical imperative to ignore and oppose unjust law.
>
>   
Good people also have an ethical imperative to be aware of accident 
blackspots, regardless of the speed they are driving at.

Kyle


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[flexd]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> interest :)
>   

To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or 
not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i 
couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.

Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd 
love it!

I want the ability to change everything, but having a different cpu/gpu 
driver isnt exactly a high priority. Ofcourse this would be great, but a 
closed driver will do fine if my phone can have specs as good as that!

Regards

Kristoffer
>   
>> Seen this?
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
>>
>> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
>> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
>> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
>> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
>> dime.
>>
>> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
>> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
>> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
>> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
>>
>> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
>> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
>> integrates the GPU.
>>
>> -- 
>> H. Lally Singh
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>> Virginia Tech
>>
>> ___
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>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>> 
>
>
>   


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Joachim Steiger]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> 
> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> interest :)

yeah.. sounds nice.. shortly after hell has frozen over and nvidia
started supporting any free and or open driver development at all ;)

btw.. did you see any total power ratings anywhere?
guess why they are missing...

anyways... kind regards


-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Kevin Dean]

With Nouveau, wouldn't it give a future device video performance that
equals or surpasses the current XGlamo?

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 3:06 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> interest :)
>
>> Seen this?
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
>>
>> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
>> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
>> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
>> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
>> dime.
>>
>> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
>> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
>> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
>> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
>>
>> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
>> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
>> integrates the GPU.
>>
>> --
>> H. Lally Singh
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>> Virginia Tech
>>
>> ___
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> --
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> ___
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Chris Wright]

The cost is probably on the order of paraplegia. And I wonder about
the power requirements -- there haven't been significant advances in
battery technology lately.

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Re: Which gsmd will be used in future openmoko?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Tuesday 03 June 2008 12:51:04 Bin Chen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > By the way, this would be more suitable on openmoko-devel in my
> > opinion...
> >
> > On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:35:39 Bin Chen wrote:
> >> As discussed before, seems there is 3 gsmd outstanding...
> >
> > Actually, it's worse. We have 5 options :)
> >
> >> gsmd, gsmd2, ophoned
> >
> > Qtopia, pygsmd
> >
> >> Which one is going to be the default gsm daemon in openmoko?
> >
> > This is hard to tell right now. It depends on how the role / maintenance
> > / importance of the three available image types (Gtk, Qtopia/EFL,
> > Framework/Zhone) evolve over the next couple of months.
> >
> > If we're interested in application developers using telephony without
> > locking them into a language or toolkit, then we rather chose something
> > with a dbus interface. This rules out Qtopia and gsmd. pygsmd is Michael
> > Dietrich's rapid prototyping gsm server for API experiments. This leaves
> > gsmd2 and ophoned -- both sharing most of their API (which is still 
> > evolving, but will stabilize over the next few weeks), so if you start
> > developing against one of these two, you can't be wrong.
> >
> > I personally vote for ophoned, since it's my baby ;)
>
> Thanks.
>
> From the git repos of freesmartphone.org, there is only a ophoned
> written by python, the module name is python-ophoned. So I wonder if
> there is another ophoned written in C or else?

Unclear at this point of time. We're going to focus on the python 
implementation to get to a dbus API as soon as possible, so that people can 
start writing applications on top of that.

Once the python implementation is finished, we're going to profile and check 
whether we actually need to rewrite it in a compiled language. If not, we're 
finished. If so, we'll probably first replace the bottlenecks with compiled 
extension modules. If that still doesn't help, we will consider a 
reimplementation in Vala, C, or C++.

:M:

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Mo Abrahams]

Its all about 3g for me. HSDPA would be brilliant.


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Re: Which gsmd will be used in future openmoko?

[Bin Chen]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> By the way, this would be more suitable on openmoko-devel in my opinion...
>
> On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:35:39 Bin Chen wrote:
>> As discussed before, seems there is 3 gsmd outstanding...
>
> Actually, it's worse. We have 5 options :)
>
>> gsmd, gsmd2, ophoned
>
> Qtopia, pygsmd
>
>> Which one is going to be the default gsm daemon in openmoko?
>
> This is hard to tell right now. It depends on how the role / maintenance /
> importance of the three available image types (Gtk, Qtopia/EFL,
> Framework/Zhone) evolve over the next couple of months.
>
> If we're interested in application developers using telephony without locking
> them into a language or toolkit, then we rather chose something with a dbus
> interface. This rules out Qtopia and gsmd. pygsmd is Michael Dietrich's rapid
> prototyping gsm server for API experiments. This leaves gsmd2 and ophoned --
> both sharing most of their API (which is still  evolving, but will stabilize
> over the next few weeks), so if you start developing against one of these
> two, you can't be wrong.
>
> I personally vote for ophoned, since it's my baby ;)
>
Thanks.

>From the git repos of freesmartphone.org, there is only a ophoned
written by python, the module name is python-ophoned. So I wonder if
there is another ophoned written in C or else?

Bin

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Re: Open Hardware

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

--- On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Lee Grime <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| There already exists a
| community for open source IP cores for silicon at opencores.org.
\--

In addition to:

http://www.openhardwarefoundation.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_hardware

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

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Re: [OT] GPG Message signing / Keyservers

[Kosa]

Yep, they automagically spread all over the world :)
It might take some days, but it does.

Cheers!

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

Andy Powell escribió:

  I've noticed a few people are signing their messages and I have decided to 
follow suit. However I do have a question regarding the keyservers used. I 
picked one from the list at 

http://www.pramberger.at/peter/services/keyserver/network/

they all sync together automagically. The question is this though, do all the 
public keyservers sync? MIT has one, is that going to sync with other 
keyservers or should I be pushing my public key to as many different 
server 'groups' as possible?

  
  

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Re: Which gsmd will be used in future openmoko?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

By the way, this would be more suitable on openmoko-devel in my opinion...

On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:35:39 Bin Chen wrote:
> As discussed before, seems there is 3 gsmd outstanding...

Actually, it's worse. We have 5 options :)

> gsmd, gsmd2, ophoned

Qtopia, pygsmd

> Which one is going to be the default gsm daemon in openmoko?

This is hard to tell right now. It depends on how the role / maintenance / 
importance of the three available image types (Gtk, Qtopia/EFL, 
Framework/Zhone) evolve over the next couple of months.

If we're interested in application developers using telephony without locking 
them into a language or toolkit, then we rather chose something with a dbus 
interface. This rules out Qtopia and gsmd. pygsmd is Michael Dietrich's rapid 
prototyping gsm server for API experiments. This leaves gsmd2 and ophoned -- 
both sharing most of their API (which is still  evolving, but will stabilize 
over the next few weeks), so if you start developing against one of these 
two, you can't be wrong.

I personally vote for ophoned, since it's my baby ;)

:M:

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building openmoko kernel image

[manoj kumar]

Hello,
 I m trying to build openmoko image using the mokomakefile.
 I finsihed make setup .
 After that i had made some configuration changes in the
mokodir/openmoko/trunk/src/target/kernel/config/defconfig-2.6.22.5.
 When i tried to make the image (make openmoko-devel-image), it failed
after completing some 250 tasks.
 The error is :


| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x344): multiple definition of `__gmpq_neg'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x3b0): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpq_abs':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x374): multiple definition of `__gmpq_abs'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x3e0): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpz_set_q':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x3ad): multiple definition of `__gmpz_set_q'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x419): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpz_popcount':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x3d7): multiple definition of `__gmpz_popcount'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x443): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpz_perfect_square_p':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x410): multiple definition of `__gmpz_perfect_square_p'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x47c): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpz_neg':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x446): multiple definition of `__gmpz_neg'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x4b2): first defined here
| scanf/.libs/vsscanf.o: In function `__gmpz_abs':
| vsscanf.c:(.text+0x476): multiple definition of `__gmpz_abs'
| .libs/assert.o:assert.c:(.text+0x4e2): first defined here
| collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
| make[2]: *** [libgmp.la] Error 1
| make[2]: Leaving directory
`/home/antony/moko2/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/gmp-native-4.2.1-r2/gmp-4.2.1'
| make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
| make[1]: Leaving directory
`/home/antony/moko2/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/gmp-native-4.2.1-r2/gmp-4.2.1'
| make: *** [all] Error 2
| FATAL: oe_runmake failed
NOTE: Task failed:
/home/antony/moko2/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/gmp-native-4.2.1-r2/temp/log.do_compile.12381
NOTE: package gmp-native-4.2.1-r2: task do_compile: failed
ERROR: TaskFailed event exception, aborting
NOTE: package gmp-native-4.2.1: failed
ERROR: Build of /home/antony/moko2/openembedded/packages/gmp/
gmp-native_4.2.1.bb do_compile failed
ERROR: Task 1207 (/home/antony/moko2/openembedded/packages/gmp/
gmp-native_4.2.1.bb, do_compile) failed
   Now if i try to redo the make openmoko-devel-image, error:
make: *** No rule to make target `openmoko-kernel-image'.  Stop.

Now i need help,
   is the way i did my configuration correct?
   how to correct the error which i encountered during the make?

Regards,
R.Manoj Kumar,
Technical Analyst,
Interchain Solutions.
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Re: FoxyTag

[Mathieu Rochette]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:44 AM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On 2 Jun 2008, at 12:06, Mathieu Rochette wrote:
> >
> > I recently discover the foxytag project . I'm wondering if this
> > apps could run on the freerunner, if so I'll definitly buy one :D
> > amAze will soon integrate foxytag but I think the software
> > requierement are the same as each apps is a java-based.
> >
> > I don't know if a jvm is available for openmoko, and I think that
> > maybe java apps for mobile phone require specific library.
> > can anyone tell me a bit about all this ?
>
> Looks a bit ugly to me.
>
> I've thought about this type of application a little bit because I'd
> love to write one and IMO this type of program doesn't need a GUI.
>
> The program should, IMO, just run as a daemon, loading the gatso
> locations at startup, and checking continuously to see if any are
> nearby. There's no need to see the location of the gatso, it should
> merely emit audio upon approach to the danger zone. The audio can
> repeat as the unit approaches the gatso, getting louder with
> proximity. This somewhat accommodates whether you're driving straight
> at the danger zone, or whether it appears likely to pass nearby -
> without streetdata it's impossible to know whether the road you're on
> continues straight or curves, so one can't know for sure whether the
> camera will be passed or avoided, but if the alert sound increases
> volume based on rate-of-distance-change (congruity?) it'll be pretty
> intuitive to the driver, I think (diagram here if I had the time). I
> don't think it's at all necessary to incorporate roadmap data - I
> think the system can provide perfect warning without it, based on
> direction and speed-of-approach.


that's a damn good idea!

>
> I don't really see any benefit of a visual display and it gets in the
> way of using any other GPS application (such as Google maps, which is
> sure never to carry camera-location data); I'm cynical over amazegps
> - why is it free if it's any good? Isn't it going to pop up
> advertising all over my phone?
>
> Last time I looked into this - perhaps two years ago - I'm sure there
> was a free Gatso camera location database available, for the UK, at
> least. However all I can find now is pocketgpsworld.com and
> www.scdb.info/en/, which both take user-submitted data and then
> charge a subscription back for it. At least the pocketgpsworld.com
> one does look like a pretty good source of data, regularly updated,
> covering Europe & used by off-duty coppers themselves, but it's not
> free in any sense of the term. Looking on scdb.info at a road I
> travelled down this evening, I'm immediately pretty sure I can spot
> errors - regular road surveillance cameras marked as speed-traps.
>
> The download link at  safety/GATSO_UK.html> has CSV files with 4200 locations (80% UK
> coverage?), but it's not clear if these are up-to-date, as it seems
> to be implied that they come from scdb.info. However the same site
> has lists of accident blackspots which may benefit those concerned
> about road safety who feel themselves immune to the risk of
> prosecution.  Accident_Black_Spots-UK.html>
>

donwloading the file to offline access is good only if you want to know
about fixed speed cam.
what I want is to know about mobile speed cam (eg: policemen check speed for
only two hours at some spot).
and these cam can't be register in POI files;

>
> The FoxyTag collaborative thing sounds productive, so an alternative
> FoxyTag client might be appealing. It looks like a genuine not-for-
> profit project, but it's not obvious that one can use it offline -
> ideally one would download a complete data-file and upload one's
> corrections later. I don't really want to have to take my hands off
> the wheel to mark my changes to a nearby camera - I'd much rather
> click on a map on a webpage later to register my votes, and if
> marking a new camera I'd rather stop my car & park to ensure I get as
> accurate a fix as possible

again, register votes on a webpage later can't be use for mobile speed cam.

> (but "Tags posted by FoxyTag are
> directional, so, tags posted for users driving in the opposite
> direction won't be signalized to you" - what happens if I'm
> stationary?).

you can't register a POI when you're under X km/h (X=I can't remember)


>
>
> Let's say I know that a local camera is only used for video
> surveillance of road traffic (sadly these too are common in the UK) -
> it is only for awareness of traffic jams (I read that
> trafficmaster.co.uk may site such cameras) and does not register
> speed. But nevertheless many users who know nothing about the
> different types of cameras keep registering the camera location on
> the collaborative system. On a system more like OpenStreetMap the
> wiki features allow me to post "don't mark this as a gatso, it
> isn't", upload a photo

[OT] GPG Message signing / Keyservers

[Andy Powell]

I've noticed a few people are signing their messages and I have decided to 
follow suit. However I do have a question regarding the keyservers used. I 
picked one from the list at 

http://www.pramberger.at/peter/services/keyserver/network/

they all sync together automagically. The question is this though, do all the 
public keyservers sync? MIT has one, is that going to sync with other 
keyservers or should I be pushing my public key to as many different 
server 'groups' as possible?

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat


pgpUFxcTBFRYT.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
interest :)

> Seen this?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
> 
> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
> dime.
> 
> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
> 
> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
> integrates the GPU.
> 
> -- 
> H. Lally Singh
> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> Virginia Tech
> 
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-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Top Content page view of wiki

[Kosa]

Thank you Brenda!

I myself use Icedove, wich is some kind of Debian 
fork of Firefox (somehow firefox logos and others 
were not "free enough" and the Debian team decided 
to use the source and but not the name. It was funny 
they named Icedove after Firefox). Anyway, I wonder 
if the engine registers  my borwser as Firefox, as 
Mozilla, as Mozilla Compatible Agent o just as Icedove.

The second question is about the zero result in both 
stats from 6 to 12 dots on the line. They are 31 of them 
so I presume those are the days. I can't remember the 
page being down for that long. As a matter of  fact I 
don't recall the page has been down this month at all.

Thanks again.

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -



BrendaWang escribió:

  Hi, all:
Attached files is the Top 100 content page views of wiki.

Brenda

  
  

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[cdr]

> Since you're the guy working the electric schematics of the device,  
> can I ask you to consider an FM radio receiver in future iterations,  
> please? GTA04 or 05 or whatever. I believe, from a previous post to  
> the list, that this is a particularly popular mobile-phone feature in  
> India, but my Sony-Ericsson P990i also has this, and I was using it  
> today - it's really much underrated.

and HDMI or DisplayPort

not buying a 'phone' here until it can replace my desktop/notebook, this is the 
only thing missing (Nvidia's platform has it)


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