Neo 1973 For Sale
Hey guys. I'm selling a Neo1973 on eBay and thought some people here might be interested in snagging it up. The listing can be found at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=270347654193 It says US, Canada and Europe but I'm actually willing to ship anywhere in the world. Please see the listing for more info and if there are any questions feel free to ask either here or on eBay. Thanks. -Kevin Dean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo 1973 For Sale
That's a great question. :P I'll check when I get home tonight and post here. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Angus Ainslie nyt...@openmoko.org wrote: Which board revision is it ? Angus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo 1973 For Sale
Thanks for the patience. :) This is a GTA01Bv4. It was a unit sold during the 1973's public sale. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Kevin Dean ke...@foreverdean.info wrote: That's a great question. :P I'll check when I get home tonight and post here. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Angus Ainslie nyt...@openmoko.org wrote: Which board revision is it ? Angus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [qtopia on freerunner] - What is the right place to discuss Qtopia on Openmoko?
Plugging a Freerunner up via USB to a Debian system while running this image doesn't appear to charge. Is this a purely visual thing, or is Qtopia unable to charge a Freerunner? I'm assuming that since the other software can, this is a Qtopia thing? On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randy S. wrote: Because it seems to make the FR the closest to actually usable, I am using the Qtopia v4.3.2 image and have run into some issues. Where is the proper place to discuss these things? Here in this forum, or in a Qtopia forum? Thx! I think here is fine. otherwise there is a qtopia-interest mailing list: http://lists.trolltech.com/qtopia-interest/ or there are qtopia forums at qtopia.net -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, Trolltech, a Nokia company ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [qtopia on freerunner] - What is the right place to discuss Qtopia on Openmoko?
Attempting to launch the media player caused Qtopia to restart. Three times. Mp3 files on SD don't appear in the media player's lists, but they DO appear in Documents. Clicking on a mp3 file gives a media engine not configured error. The POWER button being held activates the Reset/Restart menu, but releasing the button causes it to close. I need to hold down POWER and press the button I want. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Valerio Valerio wrote: Hi Lorn, great work with Qtopia image, it works fine in my Freerunner, but I found some problems: 1- I don't get the call sound in the speaker; What do you mean by 'call sound'? 2 - The Bluetooth keyboard seems to not input data to the applications (I test it in sms and in notes). Keep the good work :) Cheers, -- Valério Valério http://www.valeriovalerio.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, Trolltech, a Nokia company ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Number of GTA02s ordered as of 10 Jul 2008
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My gut says OpenMoko first mass production run was approx 1,000 to 1,500. I think you're dramatically low-balling it. You're basing that on the number of phones ordered, but aren't factoring in the number shipped to resellers who have the item in stock but haven't sold it to a customer yet, the number in transit to those retailers and the distribution centers (one can assume that they're producing are a rate faster than they're shipping to customers), the number put into people's hands as test equipment for major media outlets, universities and the like. I'm willing to bet that, like Koolu, there are people or organizations with devices that aren't in end-user hands yet - an Android based Freerunner like the W.E. Phone (for instance) doesn't exist yet, but it's safe to say they're developing it on some form of hardware. Realistically speaking, the number of people with Freerunner's in their hands don't matter too much. The only reason I care at all about how many devices Openmoko fabricated is to know if they're generating revenue to be secure in a future product line. The number of devices produced doesn't correlate the the number of community members (one can assume there are device owners who will never join the OM community and that there are members without devices) and the number of users with devices doesn't correlate to Openmoko's profitability. Openmoko earns profit on devices that end up in closets and warehouses just the same. And... A bit more bluntly... I think there's a reason that the sales figures haven't been released. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [qtopia on freerunner] - What files do I have to download?
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get the Qtopia flash image for FIC Neo Freerunner (gta02) file instead. http://www.qtopia.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=6 That image is the one that contains a tar.gz image of the rootfs, not a jffs2 image. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reviews?
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Andy Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying a neo1973 is more reliable then a freerunner? As of this moment, I have never Qtopia on my Freerunner. Lorn says there are Qtopia images for Freerunner, but I haven't seen them. Because, for my use, there is no reliably functioning software for the Freerunner but there IS for the 1973, yes, as of this moment and those conditions, I prefer the 1973 for daily use. IF (and that's a pretty hefty caveat) I were given a working Qtopia image for Freerunner, my opinion would change. There's nothing wrong with the Freerunner hardware, in fact I prefer it for the fade effect and improved battery life. The problem is ENTIRELY that the GTK 2007.02, ASU and FSO images (100% of the software I've seen running on Freerunner) doesn't meet my needs of decently reliable phone calls and media player capability for podcasts. The Freerunner is better hardware. Qtopia is better software. Is qtopia on GTA01 more stable than on GTA02? I've never used Qtopia on the Freerunner, but if it worked as well or better, the 1973 would find itself buried under a pile of papers and beer bottles on my desk, except for testing of images. Qtopia on Freerunner would rock, until one of the other images started working and tapping the wealth that is the broader Linux community. If so I'll put off buying a freerunner for the time being. I use qtopia aswell and my neo1973 is my primary phone. There's life in the old device yet. The 1973 is a nice device. The problems 1973 users might face come from what seems to be an abandonment by Openmoko Inc. There's the power controller firmware that doesn't seem to have been corrected, and the fact that the ASU developers don't seem to be developing on 1973. There are community projects, like the FSO and the SHR that will be targeting the 1973 and Freerunner both, and there's Qtopia which, for the moment, I've only see functioning on 1973 (I'd like to rectify this... seriously!) so 1973 users aren't screwed at all. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: questions about our mailinglists
Not everyone uses Gmail, but that said, most modern mail clients offer the same kind of sorting. Personally, I like modularlity. I'm subscribed to every Openmoko list except the kernel devel one, but I can see very compelling reasons why someone might be interested in say, not being on community but subscribing to device-owners. As far as the tags in the subject... I think it's a bad idea. If there is need of distinguishing which part of the list a specific message is part of, it really should have it's own list. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Dustin Knie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW I prefer the mailing list subject lines as they are. [openmoko-users] preppended to the subject line just adds clutter and reduces the useful description of the subject that can be used in that line. Only so much fits in the list of messages in the mail- client's window and [openmoko-users] isn't as useful as Bug with libfoo.so.1 and SMS sent from Nokia 800. Endianness problem? Prefixing [openmoko-users] or whatever can cause quite a bit of mess if messages are cross-posted between lists or redirected from one list to the other (this shouldn't be on -dev, so I'm replying to - users). I'm of the same feeling. Using GMail for lists and setting up rules to auto-label incoming mail removes the need for that entirely, and would further clutter up stuff. It's a annoying to see openmoko-community [openmoko-community] Subject ... Just my 2 cents. Dustin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: T-Mobile with ASU on GTA01?
I've not used the ASU on a 1973, but I know I've never been able to place calls using the ASU on Freerunner and I use T-Mobile in the USA with the exception of the first image released. I've always assumed ASU just didn't work. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Chris Hessing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Hopefully I get my terminology right. Late last year there were some issues with the T-Mobile SIMs and the GTA01. I got side-tracked on my GTA01 efforts and never sent my phone in for the firmware update. A few days ago I tried an OpenMoko build from late April, and found it worked with the T-Mo SIM. For fun, I also played with the FSO image, and had no problem. When I flashed a current ASU image (if my terminology is correct, the ASU image is the Qt/X11 image), it didn't work. The signal strength indication would change from time-to-time, but when I dialed it just said dialing, and the phone on the other end didn't ring. (There was also no indication that the phone had registered with the T-Mobile network.) Has anyone seen this? Should I even be expecting it to work? Thanks! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reviews?
Yeah, I learned a hard lesson. :( Speaking very honestly, I don't use my Freerunner in daily use but I use my 1973 with Qtopia since it's pretty stable and functional. There are several ways to get involved with Openmoko development without a Freerunner, like in Qemu or Xepher or whatnot. I'm sure Openmoko would be happy to take your money in a few months just as they'd take it today. Today, the Freerunner is intended for developers not daily use, but it'll get there in one of several forms over the next few months. :) On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:55 PM, nickd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like his server hosting the images suffered a hard-drive failure: http://www.monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/This-Site-Broken-Articles-And-Learning-Python.html Milos Mandaric wrote: Have look at this one http://www.monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner-1.html from Kevin Dean. I am not sure why the photos are missing. On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 16:02 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Does anyone know if there are any good reviews floating around for the FreeRunner yet? (And if not, does someone who already has theirs want to write one?) I'm a college student so money's very tight and I'm trying to justify purchasing one, but I want to know exactly what I'm getting first (in terms of functionality). Specifically, I'm wondering about: Cell phone functionality: Is full cellphone functionality (i.e. sending and receiving calls/SMS) currently working stably? Internet connectivity: At what stage of development is internet connectivity, both through wifi and the cellular network? Is there a decently functional browser yet? SSH: Related to above, is SSH working? Audio: How functional is the FreeRunner as a PMP? OGG support is a must and mp3 and FLAC would be good. Development portability: How easy is it to develop/compile new programs for the platform and how easy is it to port existing applications? Misc: Battery life for normal usage? Is there a JVM yet? Ruggedness? Compatibility with ATT SIMs? If anyone has any input on these, it's greatly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me privately if you don't feel it'd be interesting to anyone else on the list. Thanks, Evan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Assassin visiting the morgue...
How about Morbid and Macabre? On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Gilles Casse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Some recent projects names are a little bit 'haloweenistisc': assassin, morgue. Using them all along the year, on a dark device, argh... If this vein is pursued, please note that Alzheimer, Ebola, JackTheRipper are already reserved at sourceforge. What a chance :-) Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)
http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-update On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone explain the rationale for the decision to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)? As an observer, it's my impression that ASU represents a significant architectural change that somehow, Wham! Bang! just happened. Transparency is a virtue. g Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/rjeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Heller versus DC
My apologies, auto-completion took the wrong li. That was not meant for the list. I really need to stop using Gmail. :( On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:58 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: though i don't understand how this is related in any way the use of om phones, the first thing crossing my mind was: finally. anyway, i think it is _ totally_ off topic On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:52:54 +0200, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Supreme Court made a ruling today on the Heller versus DC case and affirmed for the first time since 1791 when the second amendement passed - the right to own guns is an INDIVIDUAL right of all Americans. Of course, it wasn't super special, since it did make it clear that some prohibition is acceptable. :( The scary part... The ruling was 5-4. The second amendement, which says pretty damn clearly shall not be infringed was interpreted by 5 people (who beat 4) as meaning can be infringed, as long as it's not totally infringed. Once more vote for No and the second amendment would have been abolished. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FR with embedded projector and LASER keyboard
I strongly doubt that future versions will have a laser keyboard and projector. That said, the laser keyboard exists and you can buy a Bluetooth one. And since when did the freerunner run Mac OS X? :P On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Atilla Filiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seemed fake to me. On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:03 PM, Francesco Cat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?? Is this the first fork of an open hardware project??? if it is a fork, what about implementing laser keyboard and projector in the next GTA? :P 2008/6/26 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://koolu.com/WE-Phone/GET-YOUR-FREE-W.E.-SMART-PHONE.html The current generation of the phone does not include the laser keyboard or built in projector. The Laser keyboard is sold separatey. The next generation of the phone will incorporate the laser keyboard and tiny LED projector built in. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Bu mesaj UTF-8 ile kodlanmıştır - Atilla Filiz Technische Universiteit Eindhoven Embedded Systems, Master's Programme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdot post but no web store?
It's interesting... Your pictures are on a wood background too. :) I'm jealous... I didn't get a green band around my box... It's so fitting with the ASU theme. :) On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Simon Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Strapp wrote: I sure hope it's for sale as I have a UPS tracking number from Truebox (UK Openmoko Distributor) that says that it has been collected from them. I'm hoping it will be in my hands tomorrow. Their website also states that the first batch of Freerunners have been sent to customers (https://www.truebox.co.uk/trueboxportal/index.php?wk=Openmoko). First boot! (sorry, I couldn't resist) I received my FreeRunner from Truebox today :) A few very quick pictures here: http://www.snmoore.net/openmoko/pictures/freerunner/ Cheers, Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Best Image to run on the neo1973 these days?
ScaredyCat's images are probably the most functional of all of them at this point, especially since they will auto-detect the gllin .ipk if it's installed on your device and it includes TangoGPS. I don't use GPS on my Neo and what I personally run is Qtopia because it's media player can fast forward, though I think they've pulled their image down from their site. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks, What do you recommend I should run on my neo1973 these days, image- wise? I've been usually lagging way behind with keeping up to date with Scaredycats releases, but I'm aware there are other images out there making the rounds .. so what are your guys' experience with this so far? Is the ASU the one to run, for GPS and phone-call making, or is there something better? Right now I'd be very happy if I could get GPS working, for good, and as well use the phone for calls .. mostly I've had it around to do development work, but it seems that the image makers out there might be pushing things in interesting territories already .. so how about it folks, got a recommendation? ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ATT SIM problems
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 1:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds like yes to me... This would be a very important issue for me, as I'm definitely going to have to use ATT. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Vinc Duran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Daniel Dadap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this question has been asked before, but I have noticed that there seem to be issues with ATT SIM cards and the Neo1973. (http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666) Have they been resolved in the FreeRunner? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community It looks like there's more information on this bug here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates, scroll down to Delivery of a GSM firmware update for the 3G SIM bug. From this I'd think [EMAIL PROTECTED] would know more. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Sounds pretty final to me. 14 day DOA on individual units. 28 day DOA on 10-pack purchases. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Realized that looked confrontational. :) I should have phrased it There didn't seem to be any indicaiton that this would or has changed, do you have reason to doubt that this policy is the official one? -Kevin On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds pretty final to me. 14 day DOA on individual units. 28 day DOA on 10-pack purchases. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdot post but no web store?
The rumors of the Freerunner being on sale have been greatly exagerated. From what I've heard, SOME distributors have been notified that Freerunner devices are being shipped to those retailers. Retailers need to have a product in stock in order to sell it on the day it is released, that is what is happening now. The Freerunners are being shipped to them. For the end user, absoluely nothing has changed since yesterday. The reason the Openmoko web store hasn't been updated yet is because the Freerunner isn't for sale yet. :) That said, Openmoko is getting a lot of attention right now because of that article, so it's probably a very good thing to have some form of anticipation building message or teaser product there to keep the hype going... On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Andy Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nerdyH writes Openmoko has begun shipping its Linux-based, open source Neo Freerunner phone to five newly announced distributors, in Germany, France, and India, says the company. /me checks Gmail and finds nothing on the announce list so heart recommences beating. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Arne Zachlod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in Germany (or the whole EU) every reseller has to give a warranty for private customers from 2 years. i can't imagine that any reseller will sell only one unit if there is no longer warranty option. That's why I think resellers in Europe outnumber resellers in other areas. By using retailers, Openmoko doesn't have to inflate the cost to the rest of the world. That way, only the people in the EU have to bear the extra costs that such warranties incur. This is just my speculation, of course. the great thing about the free market is that if people want longer warranties, they're free to purchase from a reseller who provides that. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FSO Image gets it right
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Graeme Gregory wrote: Well I have seen the future and the future is FSO. For the first time I have been able to make and receive phone calls on a gta02 without hassle. GTK+ software could no do this, qtopia software cannot do this. ermmm.. Qtopia makes calls just fine on both devices. Excellent! I already know the answer, but where can I get a Qtopia image for the Freerunner? :P Sorry, just have to poke at you on that one. :) I run Qtopia on my 01 and kinda leave the freerunenr on my home desk since I can't be seperated from my Podcasts. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ATT SIM problems
Actually, this bug has been closed as far as ATT SIMS. There was a firmware update that corrected the issue (had to be done by an Openmoko employee). The bug is still open because it's a more generic 3G cards don't work and there are some problems with 02 and Vodaphone cards. The last I've heard from American ATT customers, the firmware update corrected the problem. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Daniel Dadap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Vinc. What worried me was the fact that the trouble ticket isn't closed yet, and there's no positive confirmation that ATT SIMs work now that I have found. I e-mailed Michael; hopefully he'll have the answers. (Also, sorry to everybody for posting twice. For whatever reason my message didn't go through when I posted it the first time. I re-posted several hours later, only to discover that my original message made it several hours after that.) From: Vinc Duran [EMAIL PROTECTED] It looks like there's more information on this bug here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates, scroll down to Delivery of a GSM firmware update for the 3G SIM bug. From this I'd think [EMAIL PROTECTED] would know more. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdot post but no web store?
In all fairness, I don't think he's a troll, it just appears that the device doesn't meet his needs. Let me put something out there that is VERY VERY clearly stated. The Freerunner is not ready for a consumer grade device today. The hardware that will be available soon is intended for DEVELOPERS to build their applications on the Openmoko platform so that when the device is launched to end-users, there will be a wide selection of usable applications. If you buy a freerunner before the mass market launch, do not feel upset that a feature isn't there because this stage is intended for people writing those features. That said, advanced Linux users, or people who just like poking around at cool things can have a ton of fun with these devices at this early stage too. :) Point by point: ** old TI GSM modem, recamping once a minute(!) to the mobile station, eating battery like crazy and very unreliable. A TI engineer asked me if they (openmoko) got the chips for free, as they are so ancient - no EDGE, GPRS w/ 2KB/s. Openmoko is likely the last buyer. ** This may actually be truish. From what I understand, 3G GSM modules are essentially 100% closed, non-free or restrictive. Take your pick. Openmoko's goals are openness and the current landscape doesn't allow that to be met with 3G. This is why there's a potentially ancient system. The Model T got people around. :) This ancient GSM module makes calls and sends SMS messages just fine. The battery thing is being dealt with, it's a matter of the software. *** audio quailty on the headphone is lousy due to a hardware bug - as mp3 player useless *** A bug I reported (http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1377) means it fails at being a personal audio player for now. The headset that came in the box with the 1973 and the Freerunner aren't particularly good, but that's ENTIRELY a subjective thing. I connect my 1973 to my car's AUX input and it sounds just fine. The issue he has is with the headset, not the jack. Either way, his assessment is true - headset quality and audio issues make using the Freerunner as a DAP impossible today. *** headphone only mono. i.e. only one side works *** This is wrong, mmontour corrected it it on Slashdot. *** headphone unusable for making phone calls due to EM-interferences *** Not sure if it's EM interference, but all the software I've used simply couldn't route the GSM stuff to the headset. I'm assuming it's a software issue but this is true in my experience, the included headset can't be used to make calls. *** no bluetooth headset support *** Again, a software issue. There is a bluetooth profit to play audio through headsets, I'm assuming that can work on Openmoko hardware but hasn't been adapted to do that yet. *** no bluetooth keyboard support (dropped since last version) *** Software issue. ScaredyCat's images do it quite easily. But the ASU (latest version) and the FSO do not. *** graphics sluggish and even slower than Neo 1973 despite 2D accel chip *** Fact. *** GPS has 10 minutes TTFF - yes, in 2008 where every cheapo GPS gets a fix in 45secs *** I've not gotten a fix EVER on the GPS - it's a software issue, I assume because I've gotten the GPS hardware to respond while poking at it. *** developer community alienated by Lauer Co. GNOME knew why they kicked Rasterman out. *** Actually, this one might be trolling. I don't know about social politics, and frankly don't care. True or not, it's not relevant to the hardware sucking or being amazing. *** so called ASU software is pre-alpha and reinventing the wheel once again *** Fact. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Andy Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That said, Openmoko is getting a lot of attention right now because of that article, so it's probably a very good thing to have some form of anticipation building message or teaser product there to keep the hype going... Not all of it good, If anyone has mod points on slashdot can they mod this guy down? http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=595147cid=23939209 He's obviously registered that account just now to troll on the project. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdot post but no web store?
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It states in the wiki (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner) clearly: The Neo FreeRunner is a GNU/Linux based touch screen smart phone aimed at general consumer use as well as GNU/Linux desktop users and GNU/Linux software developers. The Freerunner is indeed the device aimed at both consumers and devs. I'm not saying it is not. What I am saying is that this release, the one that will happen within a matter of weeks, is intended for developers. There was a problem in the beginning about how the media reported (and I'll say that Openmoko not correcting this was a problem too) that the 1973 hardware would be developer only but reported that the Freerunner, once released, would be a mass market device and THIS IS NOT TRUE. The Freerunner + software WILL be released as a mass market device at some point but there was no intention, statement or plan to release a FUNCTIONAL Freerunner the moment there was a Freerunner. The marketing plan (as the wiki reflects) is that The Freerunner will be a device marketed to the general public. What the author, and MANY people assumed is Since this device is intended for the mass market, it will be fully functional if I can buy it. I agree it is not yet ready for the masses, but I do expect the hardware to be capable and sufficient once the software has been taken care of. The neo1973 hardware was for developers. The FreeRunner is for developers AND users. I agree as well. As an owner of both devices, I'm pretty darn sure it's a good deal. :) The problem, as I noted in most of those cases, is missing hardware - the author assumed he should be able to do everything and he cant. What goes on sale soon is the FreeRunner hardware not, A Freerunner running software that gives it functionality. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. :) I love Openmoko and the project's directives. I like that there's a company building Free Software powered phones and I'm willing to pay to support the continuation of that. :) However, I think that by hyping Openmoko when it's not ready will lead a LOT of people to be disappointed, as that author was. This is obviously because of false assumptions, but valid or not, that author's opinion was read by some people which may make them question a future purpose. I just want to make sure that people understand what is happening. Freerunner is a hardware device and it goes on sale soon. Openmoko is a software stack for embedded devices. Freerunner is ready, Openmoko is not. People who don't get that shouldn't be mislead into thinking somethign else is the case - moderating that guys comments would have been (in my eyes) doing that since what he said isn't actually inaccurate, just based on I expect that in due time the gsm (call, sms, mms), gps, wifi and Bluetooth will be fully functional and I want a smooth UI on a phone with a medium battery lifetime. I do realise that it will take some time and I will be patient. But if that is never going to happen, then Openmoko should have informed his intended users better. This will happen. There is no hardware reason why it can't happen. All of the shortcomings the guy mentioned are, as far as we know, a problem that the software isn't ready. The headphones silencing the speakers thing, I think, is because there's no ALSA setting for headset. The lack of bluetooth audio is because the Bluetooth Audio profile hasn't been ported yet. That's kind of my point though - you and I understand that the HARDWARE is on sale now, but the author didn't. What he said is true - those things do not work right now. His premise, not the hardware, was flawed. I have not yet read a anything that said these goals could not be reached (with a sufficient amount of time and effort). Have a little faith ;-) Faith has little to do with it. There's a passionate community and I'll put a lot of stock into that. y On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In all fairness, I don't think he's a troll, it just appears that the device doesn't meet his needs. Let me put something out there that is VERY VERY clearly stated. The Freerunner is not ready for a consumer grade device today. The hardware that will be available soon is intended for DEVELOPERS to build their applications on the Openmoko platform so that when the device is launched to end-users, there will be a wide selection of usable applications. If you buy a freerunner before the mass market launch, do not feel upset that a feature isn't there because this stage is intended for people writing those features. That said, advanced Linux users, or people who just like poking around at cool things can have a ton of fun with these devices at this early stage too. :) Point by point: ** old TI GSM modem, recamping once a minute(!) to the mobile station, eating battery like crazy and very unreliable. A TI engineer asked me
Re: upgrade memory card
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Vinc Duran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have a question about the miniSD card in the FreeRunner. If I want to install a larger card at some point is it any easier to already have the new card in hand before I even turn on the FR and just install it when I get the FR? I'm wondering if the card comes blank or does it have important stuff on it already when the FR arrives. Also wondering if when I turn on the device will it start using the card in a big way by itself? The card is 100% optional. The 512 MB card that comes with it is blank. All of the important system information is stored in Flash itself. THe SD card is simply mounted once the device is booted, so to install a bigger card all you have to do is physically insert it and turn the device on. Freerunner will function just fine without any card at all but there are obvious benefits to having one. :) I'd like to avoid having to ask for help after breaking the phone for instance by yanking out the card after the OS puts something important there. Nothing system-side is put on it. IIRC, older Qtopia snapshots on the 1973 put user data on the card if it were there, but it's possible that was me playing with a symlink too. :P Assuming for a moment it DID put the data on the card, removing it would simply make you start fresh as if you have booted for hte first time. Not something horrible, since you can reinsert the card, and you'll probably back up your card if you're upgrading anyway. I checked the wiki http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_microSD_cards for ideas on what larger cards might work. I'm hoping those folks who have their hands on FR's and have experimented with other cards will keep the list updated. The last update to that page was in May. Thanks, Vinc ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
MokoMakefile Build Issues
I'm attempting to build an ASU image from the asu.stable branch on a Debian Etch system (AMD64 arch) using MokoMakefile. I've edited the makefile to echo gta02 to local.conf instead of 01 and changed GIT_BRANCH to asu.stable. I've also followed the wiki instructions for building an image but there is the first error for me. Running make update gives me the following error: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/moko$ make update ( cd bitbake \ ( git branch | egrep -e ' bitbake-om$' /dev/null || \ git checkout -b bitbake-om --track origin/bitbake-om )) ( cd bitbake \ git checkout bitbake-om \ git fetch \ git rebase origin/bitbake-om ) fatal: Needed a single revision invalid upstream origin/bitbake-om make: *** [update-bitbake] Error 1 When building openmoko-qtopia-x11-image it seems to work properly up until it attempts to build qtopia-phone-x11 which throws the errors found at http://pastebin.com/m362d7e90 I've followed the wiki instructions, including cleaning the failed package and trying thrice before complaining. :) I'd really like to build my own images, since it appears the images on the official buildhost are constantly out of date. Any help in resolving these issues would be greatly appreciated! -Kevin Dean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Enough already (too many posts about forum vs. mail lists)
You really should post that on the forum. :) -Kevin On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People, It's time to end the infinite string of emails about using a forum vs not using one. NOW! For $diety's sake, don't those interested in the world's first completely open mobile phone/portable computer have something of substance to chat about? How about discussing the mechanics and schedule for getting OpenMoko so-called ASU to released, stable software? enough already. [smile] Ron K. Jeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Knight Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The root/user separation is the most fundamental part of a security policy and here is why. Root is by its nature not only unrestricted but unrestrictable (I think I just made up a new word). A non-root user can only destroy the data that user owns. Now while the conventional desktop, user johndoe owns all his MP3s and pr0n and thus can delete and otherwise destroy them; on the Moko platform, the extensive use of DBus makes destruction of the most important part more difficult. What I'm saying is that (Where possible) a daemon holds the important data (PIM data, calendar data, etc) and is capable of restricting what the user can do with it. The user account communicates with this daemon (via DBus or whatever) and gets the data the user wants while protecting the same. Both being normal users, they are not allowed to step on each other, but if the user is root, then someone with malicious intents can exploit that user account to step on the guardian account, either causing a DoS (crash) or actually manipulating/destroying data. Actually, I think you've just sold me. I'm thinking about Openmoko a lot like I think of a desktop system (having looked at the way the data is on Om currently) that holds everything is a file and while it may be true, from an action perspective passing information through a non-root, non-user daemon exposes that information to the user in a way that's more than simply dealing with a file. That's the goal of the ASU/zhone and it's a management case I wasn't even thinking of. Tradition bit me in the ass, thanks for spelling that one out for me, I like it a lot. :) I guess what I'm actually saying is that moving from an unrestricted account (root) to a restricted account (user) won't automagically buy us protection from all data-loss possibilities, but the mindset of moving to a normal user account is a core principle of a real security architecture. Ideally, something like an SELinux policy would be able to restrict capabilities without requiring different user accounts to do it (e.g. anything running as browser_r cannot talk to anything running as sms_r even though they're the same user). And if you're worried about deleting random data, a fairly simple chown/chmod will protect against that. That stuff doesn't work if the user you're guarding against is root. That's correct if the data is encrypted but encryption isn't what's being tossed around here. If all your data is stored in the clear, and an intruder has physical access to the device, the distinctions between root and non-root user don't matter. That's what I'm saying. That also depends on how long the malicious user has physical access and how fast the malicious user works. If the malicious user has only a few minutes and isn't proficient in cracking OM devices, the changes of damage are less. If the user can't keep good physical control of the device, then yes, they'll get pwn3d eventually, but no one I know of is that careless with their phones anymore. Even the non-geeky don't let their phones out of their sight for more than a few minutes. Now I'm not saying that such careless users don't exist, just that physical access and the root/user differentiation are not the same problem, and one should not override the other. Encryption is another matter, and one I will want addressed before too long. I've got some ideas on how it can be done, but I'll need to see more of the OM system live before I can begin to decide if my ideas are feasible or if they need changing. -KW ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm glad Raster joined up w/Moko for this. What's that slider view for (the one with three panels)? The equations, zoomed text, giant icon, etc? It's an application launcher. Each application is in a category, and each box on that screen is a category. You can slide each box left and right to have the image fade in and out (you can see mid-slide in one of the screenshots) to change the application and then tap it to launch it. The images are just blown up versions of the icons that you'd see in grid mode. I'm guessing something goes in there, but I have no idea what. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk still. This is nonsense. You dispute that the user data is the most important part of the mobile device experience? Encrypt the data and have it backed up via policy/service/etc. My previous e-mail has been clear - I WANT security on the device. However, I simply don't beleive that the root/user seperation is the most important consideration in that regard. You tossed out some great security ideas, onces I'd personally put time into doing on my own device, but with all due respect, you're saying my statements are nonsense and then offering solutions that (while they work) aren't what I was saying. Protecting user data is key so encryption and a built-in, fully automated backup system is somethign I think would be a GREAT thing to have. But it doesn't refute my point at all - a non-root user can destroy the most critical part of the system and doesn't need root to do it. Implimenting a root/user seperation itself doesn't mitigate this risk. I agree that this risk needs to be mitigated, I simply don't believe that the root/user split does much to lessen the risks. You cannot separate security from a device this powerful. Hell you cannot separate security from even crappy devices. Hell we now live in an age where frickin printers come with full webservers with ssh/ftp/telnet and are now a security risk as much as any desktop. Despite the common belief, PHYSICAL access to a device DOES NOT GUARANTEE physical access to data. That's correct if the data is encrypted but encryption isn't what's being tossed around here. If all your data is stored in the clear, and an intruder has physical access to the device, the distinctions between root and non-root user don't matter. That's what I'm saying. A good enough key with a proper authentication scheme will keep the frickin NSA busy for 10's of thousands of years. Let's not kid our selves. Security is of the utmost importance ESPECIALLY IN A WIRELESS WORLD. I agree. If you think Bluejacking was nothing, just wait until you start owning these puppies during a walk by - hell, I have plans for making a carrying bag with a full spectrume of equipment and antennas that does nothing BUT sniff out wireless devices in an attempt to own them just for fun. How long do you think an root priviledged device like this would last under such circumstances? The world is getting MORE HAZARDOUS not less, with the full power of laptops only 10 years old or less in our pockets how can anyone think this is not a serious consideration? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Andy Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a post on engadget mobile that suggested some have been released. I cant find it, you got a link? http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/11/openmoko-freerunner-gets-reviewed-early/ I didn't get this as part of a university release though. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU
Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing all of the options on a given application. But others are interesting and show some new or under-reviewed applications. I've taken those best of images and put them together in a blog post. That post can be read at http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Photo-Tour-of-the-ASU.html. I hope people enjoy! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU
I was informed that the images on the buildhost (which is what I took all the screenshots of) are out of date. Please use the images as a glimpse into the ASU but not as a status report on it. I'll see if I can follow up once I get a more current build running. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Charles Edward Pax [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the post. I love screenshots. -Charles On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing all of the options on a given application. But others are interesting and show some new or under-reviewed applications. I've taken those best of images and put them together in a blog post. That post can be read at http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Photo-Tour-of-the-ASU.html. I hope people enjoy! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: will tell you that having those kind of permissions systems when the INTRUDER has physical access to the device is next to pointless. the om is connected via wlan or bluetooth -- thus allowing hacking into it (if it is not posiible right now it will some day). thus the user does not necessarily notice if there's an intruder. second: what ways to boot the om _without_ destroying all data? if you need to hack the password for the root account to be able to manipulate existing data, there's another fence to jump. What benefit does havign things like OPKG SUID give us that having opkg run as root doesn't? only opkg is run, not everything possible. logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by accident or deliberately. expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd. User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf /* because...? see above. you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo. and user john is not every user -- a user able to run sudo needs to belong to a specific group, configurable as well. If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT EVER be able to run privaledged commands. see above. have various roles. This assumption doesn't exactly hold when the entire filesystem is small enough to be put in one's pocket. the om represents a device more powerfull than the computer linux was developed on. i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops specifically, it is a waste. if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding. what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native platform? ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on non-ubuntu systems users are able to run a lot of root applications such as rdate, power off, opkg, etc. w/o beeing root all the time. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
Firstly, sorry for the blank reply. Accidentally double clicked and send is in the same spot. :P On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only opkg is run, not everything possible. logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by accident or deliberately. expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd. I understand how and why permission seperations exist. :) What I'm saying is that if we sit back and evaluate how this device is going to be used in the vast majority of cases, you'll realize that unlike a desktop or server system, the data that a non-root user can delete is as bad, or perhaps even WORSE than destroying the system integrity itself. I'm not saying we should abandon security as a concern. But realistically speaking, a mobile device DOES have different concerns than a desktop or a server. Focusing on system internals on Openmoko while ignoring the fact that remote users can destroy vital, NON root, important data is just busy work. User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf /* because...? see above. you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo. I understand this. Take a step back for a second and really evaluate the device's marketed purpose though. The point of sudo and the like are to ensure that a non-root user can't hose the system, right? A non-root user might need to be able to install a printer so you can give that user access to CUPS commands. In the traditional UNIX file system, having /usr destroyed is signifigantly bigger of an issue than having /tmp destroyed in most cases. In a network environment, you defend the important stuff dearly, and accept a certain level of risk with every little blurb you give to a non-root user. In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk still. Please understand I'm not saying Ignore security, I'm a big fan of security. :) I'm simply trying to look at this in a way that's suited to the use cases rather than tradition. If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT EVER be able to run privaledged commands. see above. Perhaps I needed to make this distinction. When I said a user in this case, I don't mean a line in /etc/passwd but a flesh and blood person. You running sudo some-command is a user running a privaledged command. Sudo is a way to allow users to have SOME of the powers of root, while limiting them from using others. If UNIX user john has sudo permissions to remove packages, and that UNIX account is comprimised, it is AS bad as of root itself had a shell on the box - the intruder on the system can hose it. i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops specifically, it is a waste. if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding. I'm not saying that at all. I'm quite happy that I can log in a kevin and not root on my desktop system. I AM saying, however, that on a mobile device the value of each chunk of the filesystem is different than on a desktop workstation, a laptop and CERTAINLY a server. And taking into account traditional things because they're traditional isn't always the most suited solution to the environment. what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native platform? Because the system they obey is designed for an environment where protection of the system is more important than protection of non-root data. ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on non-ubuntu systems users are able to run a lot of root applications such as rdate, power off, opkg, etc. w/o beeing root all the time. If you check the Ubuntu mailing lists back to the days of Warty you'll see that there were people objecting to the use of sudo for the same reason that people are calling for root/user split. Allowing a comprimised non-root user to have access to system internals was heresy! Objectivly speaking, no system on a public network is secure - security is simply the amount of risk you're willing to take for the sake of access. Ubuntu chose to open up the sudo risk (and as I said, even though it's common, it's a procedure that still spark controversy) because, in the end, it was deemed that that amount of risk had acceptable gains. The reason that those gains were acceptable on a desktop and not a server is the same arguement I'm making here - the use case puts user data (which is still at risk when controlled by a non-root
Re: OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Considering English is not his native language... I am sure something did not come through as he intended. I think what he means is this: Businesses are not yet ready to fully embrace open source as the community see's it. He also means that the open source community should learn WHY things are the way they are. You don't have to agree with those ideas, but knowledge about it doesn't hurt anybody and could benefit by enabling us to help change things. Remember, Nokia might be one company, but it is made by individuals. A lot of them. Who have differing ideas about things. Thanks for the sanity reminder, Lorn. While I can see why this would be alarming, even if a certain company isn't ready to embrace a philosophy, they ARE writing and releasing software that is free software (open source, if that's your moniker) for the time being and usually Actions speak louder than words. There are companies much worse - still totally unwilling to embrace different paradigms. Nokia might be dropping setting up minefields, but at least they're saying There are minefields!'. Free Software works better in developement and ethics and some naysayers haven't stopped free software before so don't lend too much weight to this. ;) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My opinion is averse. There's no valid reason to abandon the very simple concept of users, groups, and permissions, just to have an easy start on development (fixing apps later on is a PITA). If you don't care from beginning, you'll end up where Vista is right now. Where is the problem to chmod any file in /dev, /sys, etc. to do rdate, power off, opkg etc (ok, for opkg I myself would prefer to be asked for root pw). The difference, as I see it, is we can be sure that a user has the capacity to physically disable the device. Having user seperations makes sense when you have some restricted users and some root users. Anybody who has dealt with security in a mission critical situation will tell you that having those kind of permissions systems when the INTRUDER has physical access to the device is next to pointless. Or make apps SUID! Do we really have to repeat this annoyance yet *another* time? What benefit does havign things like OPKG SUID give us that having opkg run as root doesn't? The reason for seperation of privaledges is to prevent an unauthorized person from ruining the system (a seceretary deleting anything ending in .conf because she doesn't use those files on a network server...) by an unprivaledged user. If you look at studies on why Linux isn't hit by viruses you'll see the root/user seperation featured as #1. #2 reason is diversity - A virus undetected on Red Hat might not be invisible on Debian and the work needed to ensure that was the case is about equal to ensuring that every device driver ever written for Windows was bug free (i.e next to impossible) If the user *really* wants to run these apps in the way you assumed (being pissed off to relogin as root), why not use ageold mechanisms like sudoers, wheel etc? User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf /* because...? If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT EVER be able to run privaledged commands. In a corporate environment, it is safe to assume that all of the people using the filesystem will have various roles. This assumption doesn't exactly hold when the entire filesystem is small enough to be put in one's pocket. To me it seems this is an *extreme* inattentiveness of developers, even worse a ridiculous one. As I see it, it's being realistic when using technology designed with restrictions to suit a multi-user environment in a situation where only a single user. In a networked and shared environment, the deletion of a single user's browser preferences isn't too important as long as the integrity of the majority of the network exists. In a pure single user situation, the integrity of the user's data IS network integrity. Feel free to ask an iPhone user what would be worse, the entire dataset of their device being erased, or only their phone numbers, pictures, music, settings and so on. in both cases, that user would NEVER use another device from that company. When the user is more important than integrity there is NO way that traditional UNIX file system permissions add a layer of security. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. I think your replies to this thread started when I said OMG! WTF!?!?!? in reply to a statement like that. Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same. Checking ATT's website it does indeed seem the situation is different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the shop for tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was a child, 25 years ago). I'm surprised that ATT doesn't list that on their site. I honestly haven't checked their (or T-Mobile, my provider of choice) website for being able to do that. The thing is, people frequently go Cell carriers are doing this abusive thing! and that gets me a bit annoyed. It is more common to buy the phone/service bundle, but it's not the ONLY way to. I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was Is it unlocked (ensuring it's compatible). There was a SNAFU there because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have pamphlets in their holders. You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here. Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the customers would come flocking to them. There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is standard. In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from CDMA soon. It would be a bit counter productive for them to encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when they're phasing down that very technology. There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers. Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset. A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service, I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings of $360). There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have the latest and greatest. It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still functional and even still leading the pack in terms of appeal. The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock, inventory finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me. As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the cellular service, that gets people interested in service. ATT wasn't particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragmatic people who buy a phone and use it until it dies. A large chunk upgrade their phones before their contracts expire for some new or improved feature, or because it comes in a new color. Even when two carriers have the same phone models, there are often exclusives - Verizon had a pink RAZR for a year before anyone else did for instance. (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards). Perhaps that's another difference that matters. Trying to buy my SIM this past weekend, even though
Re: Why not use forum?
It's interesting how much divide this issue causes, I think. :) I'm personally a fan of fora, but I don't really care too strongly either way. Some people REALLY like mailing lists and some people REALLY like fora and never the twain shall meet. :P On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We went over this right around the same time last year. The general consensus was that forums are the devil, mailing lists are good and anyone that thinks otherwise is a complete moron. Oh and prepare to get torn a new one for having a differing opinion. On Jun 12, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Leonti Bielski wrote: Hi! I was wondering - why are we not using forum for community? It's much better to view, you can subscribe and unsubscribe to the topics you want and etc. The main Personally I don't like mailing list because it's not that comfortable and I can see no advatages of using mailing list instead of forum? Can anyone explain to me why we can't install ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wireless providers in the US
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get the new one, share what providers you are using? T-Mobile. Been with them 5 or 6 years and zero complaints. Also, any details would be great. I am going to be leaving Sprint, and ditching my Treo 650 for the new phone. Dropped Motorola RAZRs for a Neo 1973 and Neo Freerunner. It is very exciting, but I am a little lost as to what all my options are. I'm assuming for a moment you're planning on purchasing an Openmoko phone since that's what this list is about. Any cellular carrier that uses GSM works with the Freerunner and 1973. This pretty much means anything BUT Sprint or Verizon (and Verizon will be transitioning to GSM in 2009 in the metro DC area, from what I've heard). Assuming the mobile companies don't restrict phones they're not familiar with, every contract plan or prepaid plan should work. It is further complicated by the way in the US everyone seems to offer regionally based plans, rather than having the same plans available throughout the country. I have to say I disagree unless you're interested only in a small, local based provider which Sprint is NOT. T-Mobile and ATT both offer nationwide plans and the plans are the same coast to coast. I am in the D.C. area. A friend of mine lives in northwest and T-Mobile doesn't work well for her (though Verizon is starting to fail in her building too). I get excellent service in Frederick, Alexandria, Gaithersburg, Reston, Herndon, Sterling. Come to think of it... Other than being in like the Baltimore tunnel, I don't think I've ever NOT had service and I drove out to Jersey a few months ago to buy my car. Thanks P.S. My intended uses are as a phone, as a modem or tethering device for my laptop, I support Openmoko but let me give my realistic opinion - the decision to use 2G and include wifi isn't the best for Americans in metro areas. From what I gather, data over cellular is still pretty expensive in Europe so the inclusion of Wifi benefits the most people there. In the USA where unlimited data plans are quite affordable, where people commute signifigantly longer distances and cellular coverage is more reliable and more readily available than wifi coverage lack of 3G sucks really REALLY badly. If you're tethering for cellular data connection, a Freerunner will disappoint you. The fact that there's not a cellular connection fast enough to support streaming audio on my daily commute is serious enough that I questioned if I'd pay money for a Freerunner. as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such, for texting. I am interested in GPS features as well. A Freerunner would work well for all of those, and with the GPS being tacked on, I'm not sure I can think of many devices that would combine all of those features. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual SIM?
The Freerunner has a single SIM slot. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Adilson Oliveira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi. I'm quite sure the answer is no but as I didn't find any definitive answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2 SIM cards? []s Adilson. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIUBYZ2cB5Bt7H7YARAranAJ42l1mQeDd8z/HlYC9bcqTptAI1UgCgoJZC XRsqcU6XHall3sYaq42jgcs= =tW0/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stroller writes: On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... Where the heck are you? To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone is cheaper. US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the cost of it in installments monthly. But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data connectivity) remains the same price. I haven't seen anything like that here. The plan costs what it costs; you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wireless providers in the US
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:09 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ian douglas wrote: ... but not at ATT plans are available coast-to-coast. Got it! This was something I wasn't aware of. I've lived in several states over the past handful of years and the plans I've had have all been the same? I would think it's actually HARDER not to offer some plan in other areas. Every plan offered on the website have been offered in stores. I've seen smaller carriers (like Bluegrass Wireless in Kentucky) offer plans that didn't cover the nation, but never large carriers offer geographically limited plans. How odd, thanks for pointing that out. at = all Lack of sleep = typos. My bad. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE CONTRACT is hard to understand? I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a free phone (with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in responce to his use of the term) ? I have not. The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone (A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a service subscription. To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription for vioce/data services. If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the cellular provider. I pay for the phone. I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue for that company in the process. -Kevin Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the contract. I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said I'm not buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from electricity I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing business, charges more for their products. If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long enough to pay for the phone, And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage laws. I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services tend to vanish when they don't make money. or pay for the phone under the guise of an early termination fee. You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the agreement. The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms, purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing business with that customer. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh okay so its semantics then. In the USA, the contract is for the service ONLY. That's why I asked in the beginning if we had a different definition of what it meant to contract. It's a lot like a grocery store that offers buy one get one free kind of sales, they create incentive to purchase by providing another product. The price of the service (video/voice) doesn't change depending on those incentives. You can still buy ONE product (in some areas... he he. Most people comply with laws and different areas interpret buy one get one free differently) at the same price even though by taking them up on the offer you gain more in the end if you do. It's a semantic issue perhaps. English has no word for Umami, the kind of taste sensation you feel when biting into a piece of cheddar cheese. Prior to the assymilation of the term deja vu from French, there was no term for the sensation of having done the same thing before. Mere words goes a LONG way towards understanding; sometimes nuances matter. *NOD* :) Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for Openmoko mailing lists. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again). One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business. Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other? Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in general a bad thing since it means if a person does something bad while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a person running an honest business manages to be big, I see nothing wrong at ALL with them. Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people. They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their licenses). If people said I don't like how you conduct business and I refuse to give you my money! those businesses (large and small) would stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business! I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract discussion is a perfect example. imho. I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and (with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how big business takes advantage of the little guy/working class. I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY arguement against big business there is one key factor - the government. How big might Microsoft be if the government (which funds every government school and university in just about every nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors determine if a medication was safe enough for their specific situation? Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like. I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many people attack business owners, demand regulation which forces up prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically evaluate things... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
Excellent! Thanks for the update! On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Wollersheim Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess). Does anyone else have a better guess? You cannot book an order at present. I reckon they will be able to ship to Pakistan. Cheers Dennis Masoom Alam wrote: Hi every one, I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on the mailing list :)). Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking this question. Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me in advance now? Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any recommendation in this regard? Regards, MM Alam -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community - -- - --- Dennis Wollersheim Lecturer, Health Information Management La Trobe University Bundoora Victoria 3086 Room HS1:110 (03) 9479 1763 (bh) 0414 529 454 (mobile) http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller - --- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck= =GOB0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:51 AM, flexd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an interest :) To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not. I'm not a programmer, but I have to fully disagree with you. Carsten IS a hacker, and I trust that if the source code where devouring children that he'd make it public. If not him then Zeke, or if not him... Me not being able to program it doesn't mean that someone else who cares can't. That's a level of trust that I gain from Free Software, and I'd not change that. Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd love it! I want the ability to change everything, but having a different cpu/gpu driver isnt exactly a high priority. Ofcourse this would be great, but a closed driver will do fine if my phone can have specs as good as that! I think about that more and more (I traded a quad core Opteron system with 10 GB of RAM for an Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 so that I could use the GPLed Intel 3D driver (before I leanrned that GLX was technically non-free). The more I think on it, the more I realize that a non-free firmware on the system mainboard actually scares me a bit MORE than a non-free application in userspace. Not only that, but how in the HELL can you call a project Openmoko with a tagline of Free your phone and then turn your back on openness and freedom? Regards Kristoffer Seen this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/ The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip, containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a dime. The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs. It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM. It'll run Android if you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it integrates the GPU. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FoxyTag
If you're speeding, you're already breaking the law. Good people have an ethical imperative to ignore and oppose unjust law. I'd love to see a Trapster[1] app on Openmoko. I was made aware of this project because of the Dash GPS-device which was made in association with FIC/Openmoko, so I've got my fingers crossed. [1] http://www.trapster.com/ On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawel Kowalak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008-06-02, at 18:47, Bastian Muck wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Be careful with such software. In germany e.g. such Software is forbidden. Are you sure about that? According to FAQ: Laws usually prohibit radars detectors and system that perturb their functions. But FoxyTag is not a radar detector. It simply gives information according to your current position. For example in Poland radar detectors are also forbidden, but almost every GPS navigation system has speed cameras database. BR, Pawel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)
This is GTA03 - http://walkingice.twbbs.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=715 On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Sergey Volkov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, openmoko community. I have a question regarding future products of Openmoko. Wiki says http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA that GTA03 is actually HXD8, a car navigation system. This claim is based on a post by Michael Lauer, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017061.html. But IMHO that inference is not obvious: Martin Bernreuther writes: looking at the Wiki, there're also speculations about another Neo-like device: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8 This seems not to correspond to the GTA04. (Maybe HXD8==GTA03?) Is there a more complete roadmap about the Neo-Productline somewhere? And Michael Lauer replies: device: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8 This cat is long out of the box. It's the Dash Express device. For me the actual question of GTA03 vs. GTA04 remains unanswered. Also, Michael Lauer recently posted http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/003020.html following on the openmoko-kernel list: I don't want to talk too much about future products, but I would vote against going away from NAND for 03 -- there's too many business risks. 03 is about evolution. 04 is revolution. This makes the issue completely unclear, esp. GTA03 part. AFAIK (my opinion stems from the discussion which took place in May on the hardware list) GTA04 is a brand new device based on a more advanced SoC. But it's very hard to find any info on 03. Could anybody unveil the GTA03 mystery? What are the hardware specs, will the shared-slow-videoRAM-bus issue be fixed (for me it's the main reason to wait for the next device)? Any comments from openmoko employees are especially welcome ! (: PS don't kick me too hard, it's my first post to this list (; ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner test
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Mike Montour [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: Unscientific testing, yes. The echo is still there. :) s/)/(/ Can you please add a note about this to bug #1267? How bad was the echo - enough that a normal person would complain about it, or something that would only be noticed if they listened carefully? I've updated that bug. :) I'm getting annoying GSM buzz on the Freerunner when using certain SIM cards (I need to confirm this with more SIM cards). A note about this on bug #883 would also be good. I'd like to reconfirm this before reporting, or at least kill my theory before reporting on it and creating a false lead. It seems that the SIM itself is important. Sitting at my computer desk and switching the card in my 1973 for the one in my Freerunner causes the Freerunner to buzz but doesn't affect the 1973. Now, it's possible there's something else (perhaps my wireless mouse, my speaker system, my monitor) actually causing this, so I'd like to test the same in different environments and buy a 4th SIM card to another control. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner test
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:35 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yorick Matthys wrote: I don't know how to post on the mailing list (shame on me, I know...) although i read every mail that gets posted on them, so I write it directly to your e-mail address. If you're subscribed to the mailing list, just address messages to community@lists.openmoko.org and everyone will get a copy. could you also give an indication for how long it takes to get a gps fix (cold/warm start) ? Or about the audio quality with a standard headset? I understand completely if you can't be bothered with these questions, if so, please excuse me; it's just I'm so damn anxious to get my hands on a freerunner :-). I haven't done any audio or GPS tests on my Freerunner yet. Have any of the other Freerunner testers done anything in this regard? Unscientific testing, yes. The echo is still there. :) I'm getting annoying GSM buzz on the Freerunner when using certain SIM cards (I need to confirm this with more SIM cards). It sounds as if the Freerunner has the capability to be louder but calls seem quieter (though this is configurable). I've done nothing with GPS since the ASU doesn't have a functional GPS app yet but I might poke at it with a 2007.02 image and TangoGPS this weekend. If not, I'll try some testing this weekend if I can figure out how to get the GPS working. Ian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Yeah, there are GTA01 images for the ASU, I've tested them. Not too much to report, ASU is almost totally non-functional but it gives a good view of it's potential. I planned on doing video over this weekend but I got sick for the first time in almost three years. *growls* On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: steve wrote: Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well. http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files. Be sure to also update your kernel. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: software load for first mfg run of Freerunner? Is ASU what ships?
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am NOT asking if mass production has started. I am asking if OpenMoko has frozen a release to load into the microSD cards. It seems to me that the unit can come off the line, and that one of the final steps before packing would be to load the software. Firstly, yes, the software has been chosen. It's one of the older versions of the 2007.2 stack, the one you're used to if you have a 1973 or if you've toyed with Qemu in the past year. This will get you basic phone calls, SMS, a limited media player and so on. Secondly, and while this is nit-picky, the software isn't on the microSD card (though you CAN boot software installed on the SD card) its in NAND Flash. The reason I mention this is because both the Freerunner and the 1973 include a microSD card of 512MB, a size most people would find to small for everyday use once you start using it as a digital music player, a storage device for pictures et cetera. You can install a microSD of your own into it without having to do any software copying before you boot it the first time. :) Is ASU the* ship[ping s/w load? yes I know people can and will download new s/w. but you'd hope that the Freerunner as shipped would not require an immediate s/w reload. The software that ships to developers will not be the software that mainstream users will have installed. For a mainstream device, making the user install the software is dumb. That said, between the developer release and mainstream release the software (ASU) will be developed and improved upon so rapidly that it's possible that by the time the device is actually in your hand that the ASU would have also become usable enough to move to and poke at and report bugs on. Or maybe I'm being too old skool ??? -- Ron K. Jeffries http://blog.eronj.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: sales tax on freerunners
There's no American tax. I was chatting with a friend from Croatia who was confused by how American sales tax works because apparently it's more common elsewhere (or particularly in Europe) to roll the sales tax (VAT?) into the advertised price of the good. In America, each state has it's own sales tax laws (not all states have sales tax) which only applies to goods sold within the state. Americans suffer no sales taxes on the national level (yet...). Furthermore, when I bought my Neo 1973 it appeared on my debit card as a purchase from FIC's Taiwan headquarters and NOT the California location where it shipped from so I wasn't charged a direct tax for that purchase. Of course, somewhere along the line, the price was inflated as some government skimmed off the top of commerce, but that's factored into the quoted price, and I'm sure you're asking only about taxes applied directly to the end consumer (in this case, you). On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: while i was looking up the gst/duty i'll have to pay for importing my freerunner, this occurred to me - is american/californian/whatever sales tax included already in the price of the phone? will i be taxed twice, or will your local tax only be applied for local purchases? this might seem like a dumb question, but i've bought plenty of stuff from another country where the seller included tax even though it's being shipped abroad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia Vs. GTK or both?
On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Marcel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Samstag 24 Mai 2008 14:47:03 schrieb rakshat hooja: I am not to sure how many people have seen the Neo software stack diagram on the wiki but after looking at it there really should not be a GTK Vs Qtopia argument any more. But I do wonder how Android fits in? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NeoSoftwareStack Rakshat Isn't this diagram outdated? Yep. http://www.vanille-media.de/images/OpenmokoFramework.png -Marcel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
Having had a chance to briefly poke around at the ASU, I think that's a great choice. :) On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 2:10 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of the initial phones that ship from Openmoko.com are planned to ship with the legacy version of the Openmoko Stack and it's GTK applications. The base set of applications, dialer, SMS, and contacts, have been released to manufacturing. So anyone who wants to take this release and build on it is free to do so. We will also make available for download a new set of applications and QTopia. I don't have a final release date or gold master date on those applications, but what we have shown people in the ASU is definitely pre alpha. Until the new software is ready for manufacturing release the phones will ship with the familiar old stack. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:10 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Kosa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Awesome! Thank you very much. No problem. :) What about the software? Did it came with QTopia? It actually came installed with an older version of the Openmoko Stack, with the familiar GTK applications. It didn't work very well and it's since been erased. :) I am under the impression that the version shipped once it's on sale will have a small set of Qtopia based applications working and that updates will be released shortly after that to add functionality. So, what came installed on the one I have probably won't be installed on the ones purchased from Openmoko.com or from a reseller. And sorry if I'me getting it wrong (my english is not very good) but first you wrote no accesories and next you wrote it came with a headset and the laser/led/pens stylus. Ain't those accesories? I wrote The Freerunner doesn't come without accessories, however. which is probably a bit confusing. :) My apologies. This means it DID come with some. It is not lacking accessories is probably a more clear way to phrase that. Well, I have a lot of questions, but I think I'll better let those who know how to ask make them. You're doing well enough. :) Any questions you have might help me decide what ends up in the reviews I write, so I'd appreciate the input. :) Thanks again Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible- Kevin Dean escribió: I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about it. Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that seem to get overlooked. Anyway, the writeup can be read at: http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunn er.html -Kevin Dean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re[2]: Video of production device?
On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 4:04 PM, t3st3r [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Vinc Duran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:51:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Video of production device? Is there video of the production FreeRunner in use? I found http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi posted by Kevin Dean on May 19th. Is that video of shipping software or just a concept video? If someone cares I dislike such UI.Even on video playback it can be seen that sometimes some sliding effects are somewhat slow.And, what is slightly worse, UI has too few items per screen and over-uses this nasty sliding.So on this video I can see just a permanent nasty scrolling and sliding.IMHO such UI is neither well optimized for stilus- or finger-driven UI nor comfortable in sense that there should be as few levels of nested menus as possible. It's actually well optimized for the stylus and finger. Openmoko's 2007.2 stack is HORRIBLE for finger based usage, and while Qtopia is a bit better, it's still pretty bad. The ASU makes selection (via sliding) easy. Text is also pretty big and easy to select. From video it looks like dealing with such menu system is a real PITA. Much easier than hitting a tiny square with my finger. Sliding is great effect and looks great and I like it.If it's not overused as here in this example. You can still use the icon based app selection screen (ala Qtopia or iPhone) and is infact the default. Illume is shown off because it's actually creative. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qte or Qt?
Qt has been adapted for X11. This is why GTK apps will still be supported. On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Bin Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, As ASU switched to Qt, to ensure the coexistence of GTK+ and QT, the backend should be chosen to X11. As I know, QTE only support framebuffer backend, so OM use desktop QT but not QTE? Thanks. Bin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Kosa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Awesome! Thank you very much. No problem. :) What about the software? Did it came with QTopia? It actually came installed with an older version of the Openmoko Stack, with the familiar GTK applications. It didn't work very well and it's since been erased. :) I am under the impression that the version shipped once it's on sale will have a small set of Qtopia based applications working and that updates will be released shortly after that to add functionality. So, what came installed on the one I have probably won't be installed on the ones purchased from Openmoko.com or from a reseller. And sorry if I'me getting it wrong (my english is not very good) but first you wrote no accesories and next you wrote it came with a headset and the laser/led/pens stylus. Ain't those accesories? I wrote The Freerunner doesn't come without accessories, however. which is probably a bit confusing. :) My apologies. This means it DID come with some. It is not lacking accessories is probably a more clear way to phrase that. Well, I have a lot of questions, but I think I'll better let those who know how to ask make them. You're doing well enough. :) Any questions you have might help me decide what ends up in the reviews I write, so I'd appreciate the input. :) Thanks again Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible- Kevin Dean escribió: I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about it. Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that seem to get overlooked. Anyway, the writeup can be read at: http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html -Kevin Dean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
Hrm... I've been having issues off and on too. I'll tranfer the site to a new server when I get to work, hopefully that will help. -Kevin On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: Anyway, the writeup can be read at: It's about a day (since it has been posted on planet) that I can't connect to your site! :( -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
My VPS provider was upgrading the hardware and decided to upgrade my plan because of the interruption. I thank you for the offer, but I don't think it'll be needed, it seems stuff is loading again now. :) -Kevin On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Kosa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin, David, Marco, Bastian, I just clicked the link again and I got the page nice and easy. If you want me to mirror it somewhere else just let me know. Kevin, I have a nice server if you want to use it. It'll be an honor to host your stuff. Cheers Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - Bastian Muck escribió: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I have the same Problem. :-( Marco Trevisan (Treviño) schrieb: | Kevin Dean wrote: | Anyway, the writeup can be read at: | | It's about a day (since it has been posted on planet) that I can't connect to your site! :( | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFINtpPlYiDScJJ+7QRAkNAAKCJvUe2yBhbPjgN5WRiSaz7PGijvwCeILCm fHERRfdNQiWmbK/MDpuJXJQ= =QcBV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA01 battery charge circuit: ID pin?
Wurp wrote an applet that adds a LOT of functionality to the 1973. Install the applet on you phone and then force it to fast charge when connected to a charger and you're golden. Charge on the go, using a wall charger or a car charger. :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Major A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a GTA01 and want to use it even when I don't carry a computer with me. I read that the battery charge circuit of the GTA02 will switch to high current if a 48k resistor is present between the mini-USB ID pin and ground. Does this also apply to the GTA01, i.e., is it worth hacking up a cable for that model? Thanks, Andras ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about it. Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that seem to get overlooked. Anyway, the writeup can be read at: http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html -Kevin Dean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
ASU is literally the April Software Update. Three letter acronyms give it more geek cred. :) On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does ASU stand for anyways? It makes me nervous knowing that the phones software shares the same initials with my rival University. Richard ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been using a FreeRunner for a few days with a pre-pre-alpha snapshot of the ASU software. I've done Daily Snapshot Reviews since January. I enjoy bug hunting and communication. Where can I get this image? Does it run on a Neo1973? For those who have been off-list for a while, or who have not been looking at the Wiki much, the April Software Update switches the Window Manager from matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) and the main applications from the GTK-based apps (developed by OpenMoko and OpenedHand) to QTopia (but using X11, of course). The new phone is in the same case, so it looks and feels a lot like a GTA01. I think the partition numbers for dfu-util have changed; newer versions of dfu-util allow you to use the partition names instead of the numbers. Beware. The Home Page (aka Launcher) can now be displayed either in an Icon Grid (conventional cell phone style, e.g., Blackberry, and the traditional QTopia format) or a slider style (the latter demonstrated by MokoNinja here: http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf (flash required). For those without Flash, here's a video of the same concept. http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi The small home/current-apps menu has been replaced by a larger slide-down top panel, listing the current apps, and containing the time, battery panel, GSM on/off, qwerty keyboard on/off, Configuration, and the Enlightenment menu. Neither of the above is, AFAIK, cast in stone. I must admit I have mixed feelings about the switch from OM/GTK apps to QTopia. I personally had those reservations as well. From a non-technical standpoint, I think Openmoko did right by me. I know nothing about hackability on a code level, but I know my previous dislike of Qtopia was because of the lack of flexbility from not running on X11. I also had doubts... Qtopia has been around for a while and never made waves but Openmoko held promise. I felt making the switch to Qtopia was a comprimise on that. However, I don't think so now. The work done to port Qtopia to Xorg created a LOT of opportunity for the Open part of the Openmoko mission statement to be true. Third part developers have just as much ability to hack as they do with the 2007.1 stack (arguably more so) now that the base includes Qtopia but allows for other languages and toolkits. I think this will be made even easier with the service-based approach that will expose functionality cleanly across those toolkits/languages. However, I recognize the need to get something finished in a reasonable time and I infer Sean et al felt the need to go this way; Sometimes people forget that Openmoko Inc. can't make hackable phones unless they SELL hackable phones. Hardware isn't free. Staffing, advertising, fabrication, procurement, shipping, design (et cetera) costs money. I think everyone here can truly respect that, if not like it. I'm happy that Openmoko was able to make a decision that will generate revenue more quickly without comprimising the objectives in the first place. in hindsight, building the whole thing from scratch is a daunting task, and something that QTopia has been honing for several years. Free Software projects have one major strength - the ability to share. I don't see collaboration and adaptation to be a bad thing at all. I'm actually kind of glad that Qtopia will be an included part of Openmoko. Including it doesn't diminish the ability for someone to write the application they would have liked to see as Openmoko but it does give people who aren't writing apps some more functional applications. The QTopia apps do have a somewhat more conventional cell phone feel to them (see my screenshot of the Contacts Overview page here: http://www.darwinsys.com/tmp/contacts1.png). This is good for a mass market product, I think. Having a hackable phone aimed at end users is a good way to go. For the users who never want to tweak, let it be familiar. For users who are fine hacking, give them the power to. With the expansions of Qtopia by the Om dev team, I think that balance it being struck. So, I think we're in good hands here. On to the experience. Short form: functionally, it works. Among other things, the phone wakes up reliably on incoming rings (assuming it's booted and suspended, of course), and GSM voice works after a resume. There are still some minor glitches. I hope I'm not out of line reporting these here, given how pre-pre my software is, but Steve has been asking me to report on this list since my FreeRunner arrived. I remind everybody reading this to remember that this is PRE-PRE-RELEASE software. None of this intended as criticism of those who worked under time deadline to make this early release ready for the show I was presenting OM at! Nonetheless these are things that I would not like to have fall through the cracks. 1) Incoming calls do wake up the phone,
Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Fredrik Wendt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Carlo E. Prelz wrote: Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have C++/QT versions running on my phone. I really don't understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and gets the job done, why does it matter what language it's written in or what widget toolkit it uses? Language DOES matter. We use English on this list. I doubt that 50 % of those involved and interested in this wonderful project have English as their mother tounge. Programming language. :) Openmoko's new software stack is language agnostic. A Python app works cleanly with a C++, for instance. We're all just interacting with and describing the same physical world, yet there are so many different ways to go about it and, basically, people tend to not be as fluent in more than one or two languages. Hence, if you want people to get up to speed and act naturally with as few obstacles as possible in the way - then you'll want to choose language(s)/environment used carefully. My two euro cents. / Fredrik ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microSD support
It's also worth noting that the 32GB limit is also artificial. 2048GB is the technical limit for SDHC, if I recall correctly. On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Stefan Misch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Crane, Matthew wrote: The SD card association has limtied the size of sdhc to 32gb, the max size of a fat32 system. I just want to give a short note that this is not true. Fat32 supports partition size of up to 2TiB. Microsoft artificially limited Windows 2000 and following to be able to create Fat32 partitions of max 32GiB. Using other tools to create them (such as mkfs.vfat) it's still possible to create those partitions. And Windows reads and writes to them. Of course now that there's a reasonable stable NTFS access from Linux it doesn't matter that much anymore but a few years back this was quite a pain in the ass. just my 0.02€ Stefan No doubt there's a lot of crappy SD cards out there that don't comply well to standard interfaces though, but unless you're really really skimping there's likely nothing to worry about with any common microsd cards. You could even support larger cards because we aren't limited to fat32 on a linux phone. But has anybody found an SD card that doesn't work with existing hardware?? I only wish I had hardware so I can't test the few cards I have.. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Tabbal Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:52 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: microSD support I think he's asking if the phone will support SDHC, which is required for larger cards and many older devices do not support. Or perhaps if 8GB in particular has been tested. It would be nice to know exactly what is supported, as those 8GB cards are getting cheap lately. We might have to wait for the first phones to ship to know for sure what will or will not work. Right now, only the OM dev team at FIC could test it for sure, and they are kind of busy getting mass production going. I think I'd rather have them do that and test the microSD size limits later. On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From wikipedia entry on current sd cards: Memory capacity = (C_SIZE+1) * 512 K = (222-1+1) * 512 K = (4194304-1+1) * 512K = 2147483648 K = 2048 GB So you're probally good. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Giorgio M. Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:53 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: microSD support I know that freerunner will support MicroSD memory. I want know wich capacity it will support?can i use 8GB microSD?? what is the limit? thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wiki distorted in Firefox 3?
Iceweasel 3 shows the sidebar moved to the bottom. On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:36 AM, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM, MartinG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/5/08, Tomas Gustavsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm running Firefox 3 Beta 5 in Ubuntu 8.04 and the OpenMoko wiki menu (the one to the left) is placed a long way down (instead of at the top). Is this a Firefox bug or a css problem? Same goes for the Opera browser [1] - the menu comes after the rest of the text, down to the right. I think it has been like this for a long time, and for many versions of opera (9.x). I now use 9.50 Beta 2, and the problem persists. I think the problem was there also when the wiki was bug free (see validator.w3.org). best, MartinG [1] http://www.opera.com hmm :) I use swiftfox in 3 series since month and I was believing it was normal :) Looking it with iceweasel 2* show me the menu on top effectively -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you could do this. Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to wade through. Thanks! -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)
That's quite useful, thanks! On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Tomas Di Domenico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is what you're looking for: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Geoff Ruscoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its on community for April ... Not sure I remember which thread. On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you could do this. Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to wade through. Thanks! -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)
Okay, so I just did some number crunching using the information Steve gave and honestly, there's no reason at all the 10-packs need to be broken up by region. It costs $14.40 to ship a 10-pack from Fremont, CA to Frederick, MD where I live (which is pretty close to across the country). $3,690 + $14.40 = 3704.4 delivered or $370.44 per phone before shipping. Here's the beautiful thing. Shipping a single unit (from a 10 pack) back, from Frederick, MD to Fremont, CA is $9.95 by UPS Ground which would bring the total cost per unit to $380.39. Assuming that Openmoko's Fremont shipping place is NOT getting a volume discount then the savings over a single unit would be $28.56 if shipped ACROSS COUNTRY both ways. For fun, I decided what it would cost to ship the unit from home to work (as might be done if buying regionally) in Alexandria, VA. The diffrerence in shipping is barely noticable, that a shipment of less than 60 miles makes it less than $2 cheaper. The point is, I horribly overestimated UPS shipping costs and there's actually quite a bit of savings from going in on a 10-pack. That said, I also discovered that doing regional purchases doesn't save much money over doing national purchases. Guys in groups falling short could easily pick up a small group across the country and cash in on the bulk savings. People picking up their phones (perhaps at a LUG meet) can even score an extra $8 to $10 savings over having it shipped. Neat. :) On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's quite useful, thanks! On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Tomas Di Domenico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is what you're looking for: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Geoff Ruscoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its on community for April ... Not sure I remember which thread. On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you could do this. Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to wade through. Thanks! -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Group Sales, distribution model
Hi Dale, I just made a post to that other list and broke it down. It's good news in general, even shipping it there's about a $28 savings. There's even a decent savings if you combine groups anywhere in the country. Mostly coast to cost single unit shipment is about $10 and shipping locally (i.e. about 50 miles) is about $8.50 so shipping from Austin to Dallas isn't MUCH cheaper than shipping Austin to Duluth. Certainly doing that would save you money over not buying a 10-pack. http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016671.html -Kevin On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Dale Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Kevin notes, the marginal savings on a 10-pack is pretty thin. For planning purposes size and weight details are useful, but I thought they were posted previously. Currently there are 4 people showing interest in Austin, TX and 1 in Dallas, TX. This does not include the 2 current Neo1973 owners, who have not expressed a desire to be part of this 10-pack. If we get enough interest for a 10-pack, I am assuming that people will either pick up their device in person, or pay for additional shipping, at their option. If that is not cost effective for them, and it very well may not be in the case of re-shipping, then they should order directly. I will be ordering directly if there is not sufficient local interest. The individual in Dallas may have reason to visit Austin, or other means of obtaining cost-effective transportation for his device. If not, then I'm sure he will also order directly. Clearly details like these must be worked out for each local group, but should be done OFF LIST. I've described my expectations as simply an example of the choices to be made. -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Are there any size or weight dimensions known about the Freerunner packages? How much will the 10-pack weigh? How much will a single using weight? ... Openmoko guys! Can you give us the specs so that those interested in bulk purchases can figure out the logistics of shipping versus individual sales and then factor that into the regions that will be used to organize bulk purchases? Thanks. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
I've not had ANYONE comment it's ugly but just about everyone I've handed it to said It's HUGE. I personally LOVE it, I'm huge too. :) On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was the GTA01.. the first pics I saw of the GTA02 was last week. I showed both colors of the GTA01. I got the impression was it was the shape that was a turn off but I am not sure because I never asked for that kind of detail. Although I do have to admit I'd never heard it called a buttplug before. That's an interesting observation. If I were to make three recommendation for GTA03 (or whatever the consumer version is going to be), it would be focus group, focus group, focus group. L On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nine out of ten typical consumers I show it to think it's ugly and wouldn't buy it because of looks alone. Are you showing them a black one? Its a lot sexier than the gta01 in my opinion. But, that doesn't matter: the most common feedback I get is that, in spite of external appearances, even the GUI is horrendously ugly too .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Kentucky / Indiana Group Order
I figured that the person who started a KY/IN group would be from Louisville or New Albany and not from Indy, Fort Wayne or Lexington. Keep in mind when forming the groups that if it still needs to be shipped (as opposed to physically delivered) there isn't much savings. You're saving $30 by buying in groups - if you spend $20 in shipping or gas, you're not really getting that great of a deal. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Brandon Kruger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri April 25 2008 3:30:13 pm Geoff Ruscoe wrote: Louisville, KY On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Joseph Jon Booker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:16:09 -0400 Geoff Ruscoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone from around here interested in getting a group order together? Where in IN/KY are you guys? Is Chicago too far away for this group? -- Joseph Booker I'm in Kokomo, pretty much right between you both. It's up to you guys wether you want to all meet in Indiana or have separate groups for each state. -- Brandon Kruger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://onedollarlinux.com BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/ Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?
Using Bobby's application the iGo charged fast charges my Neo1973 and it doesn't set fire to my Element. That's good enough in my book. :) On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 6:10 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just plug it in and see if smoke comes out. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:07 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there? So... Here's the magical question. How would an average user like myself find that out without buying equipment to test it if the manufacturer didn't include actualy numbers (or in my case, if the manufacturer specifies a range of possibilities)? On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My new Blackberry 8830 charger draws 500mA -id For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but I didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the games were ported. I thought they were just a simply cross-compile to show that they would work on Openmoko. I think the intention is that you should be able to do most things without a stylus. It says essentially that on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#Overview That said, this is opensource! You can't force every developer to design their program for finger operation. A point of clarification... I'm not referring to every app, I'm referring specifically to the applications that Openmoko will be releasing. Perhaps this is an incorrect assumption, but I am under the impression that Openmoko Inc. will be writing and releasing software to do the things their hardware devices are advertised as being able to do. They say GPS Navigation and I assume Openmoko Inc. will provide customers with a GPS navigation application. Same for dialer (since the device is advertised as being able to make phone calls) and so on. the device isn't advertised as a home automation remote control, but it MIGHT be if the user decided to go beyond what the consumer device is being sold to do. Someone can write an application in Qt 4.4 and SAY it's a Gnome application, but it's not. Likewise, if it doesn't conform to the guidelines specified for Openmoko it's not really an Openmoko app, if that makes sense. Some app just might not be usable without a stylus and that's up to the developer. If you don't like it, modify the source and change the GUI. Keep in mind that Freerunner is designed to be a mass market product. That's very true that this can be done but making that action a REQUIREMENT for consistant applications is directly opposite the ideas of a mass market device. The one thing I've written[1] was specifically designed to be finger-friendly as I don't intend to carry a stylus around with me either. -Steven [1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/moko-sudoku/ On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus at all ... When devels talk about mokofy (port to openmoko) some aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus. Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers has never been set. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:47 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my razr charger draws 850. I haven't check my igo charger, Kevin is the IGO usb 100ma or 500ma? This may be a trick question... I don't have an AC iGo, I have a DC iGO car charger. http://info.igo.com/mobility/datasheets/auto8.pdf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:37 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Freerunner AC adaptor Just as a comparison, since my workplace just got me a Blackberry World Phone (8830), here's a photo of the power adapters that come with it, which I guess connect to the standard American power plug. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2435261066/ For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but I didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?
So... Here's the magical question. How would an average user like myself find that out without buying equipment to test it if the manufacturer didn't include actualy numbers (or in my case, if the manufacturer specifies a range of possibilities)? On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My new Blackberry 8830 charger draws 500mA -id For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but I didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What US plans are people using?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. T-Mobile seems to have good coverage here. It sounds like the Total Internet plan is the way to go. I'm looking forward to the release of Freerunner. I love being able to add/change software on my phone. I've been waiting to buy a new phone for Freerunner. Has the 850Mhz issue been resolved? That issues actually confuses the hell out of me. :) Per the wiki Will a modification to my Neo 1973 (GTA01bv4) be possible? As of Feb 08, it has been confirmed by OpenMoko that this is not possible (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/US_850_band_users_wanting_to_sell_Neo) This implies that a GTA01bv4 can NOT use 850 mhz. But my Neo1973 works PERFECTLY in the USA, which means either it DOES support 850mhz OR that the LACK of 850mhz is irrelevant. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Fredrik Markström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still no official comments on this issue ? Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before spending $399 on another piece of potentially useless hardware (GTA02). If you think your GTA01 is useless, I'll buy it from you for $5 USD... I'd love to have a spare battery for mine. I use the Neo1973 as my primary phone and digital audio player. Furthermore, it's powered by Free Software except for the bits that I'm explicitly informed are NOT. Respecting my property rights is quite valuable IMO. The device is functional enough to be used for me. I'd advise ANYONE making value judgements to look at the definition of value. It's inherently different for everyone, which is why the ideas of commerce and sale and free markets work - because the value of a good is different for one person than another and when that exchange of values benefits BOTH parties, it is a good sale. Power management issues are well known on GTA01 and there are people who still think the device is a good value, myself included. People should evaluate their own uses and decide from themselves. Keep in mind that without selling the Freerunner, there won't BE an improved device. From my point of view openmoko might be as silent and unresponsive, using busy with nextgen hardware as an excuse with any future hardware revision. As opposed to every other device manufacturer? I've never had Nokia or Motorola or Samsung or anyone else fix my problems right away. One the flip side, Openmoko is pretty clear about what's happening. Furthermore, they were also pretty clear when I entered my credit card information into the online storefront that there WOULD be issues with the device and that it was a developer's edition. The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 ! And yet, this is the Openmoko community list, full of people who are interested in Openmoko products. Some of us don't care one iota about the iPhone because (again, that value thing) it's not worth our money. For me, I'd not pay to be in Apple's golden cage - I'm sure others fell the same way. For other people, iPhone is a social cliche - useless because it's popular. If the iPhone is better than a product offered by Openmoko, spend your money on an iPhone instead. /Fredrik ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 99
For the record, my tip a programmer thing was almost pure sarcasm. I find this discussion to be amusing by the level of absurdity in it. On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 9:57 AM, ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, so first, i also would like to see 400$ instead of 399$, because it's simply a matter of being honest. How is Openmoko charging $399 dishonest? Do you REALLY believe there are people on the planet who are such consumer sheep that they'd part with $399 but would be able to resist a $400 product? I could PERHAPS see your arguement if Openmoko's advertising said something like Affordably priced under four-hundred dollars I'd think that MIGHT (and even that hesitantly) be misleading. This hasn't been said. The FreeRunner will ship from Openmoko.com at $399. is what was said, a simple statement of fact. In the end, the price is $399. If you want to pay that, cool. Do so. If you have a problem with that price, don't buy it. It is a decision EVERY potential buyer will have to make based on their own criteria. No human being can think for another. Then the bounty for code: i would rather see bountyes for bugfixes: everyoen likes to implement new features, but nobody lieks maintaining code. Another way of Bounty for developers that I really would like is that the developers put there hoem adress somewhere in the wiki, and then the user who like the feature can send him a postcard/thank you card. A bit like Linus Torvalds originally made for Linux. That's something that really would push me, as a developer, to do more. Maybe it would help even more then a sporadic 5$ on my paypal account. And for the openmoko subscription/club/frequent buyers: This coul be a really great idea. A yearly membership fee, but for three recommendations you get it for free (so if I recommend the phone to three people i get the membership for free), and members get access to a membership card, a pouch and a special homepage, where they can browse all openmoko community created products and maybe get a 10% discount or something like that. And at the yearly OpenmokoCon (and we sure are going to make it, aren't we?) the members get reserved places at the talks :D Jsut my two EuroCents -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko sounds, Motto
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Georg Michelitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Concerning the soundset (if I understood right you meant something like a standard sound for the phone-startup as a lot of other companies pratice) I think a human voice saying Openmoko - Open mobile communication would be a nice alternation to Free your phone or open. mobile. free .. Even if I like the last two better as a motto I think that the first one suits better for some kind of system sound.. I personally think a human voice is a bad choice. There's NO point in making a universal sound if it won't be universally understood. Openmoko's uses may well extend beyond those we think of right now which may extend into areas that wouldn't recognize (or worse, would find offensive) a human voice. I recall someone once raising the question of Would a south east asian rice farmer understand the meaning of the house icon, given that his house looks nothing like it? cu, Georg ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 99
I'm happy paying $399 for all ye who feel the need to pay $400 to make it even. :P Though, I'll hop on the even bandwagon if it's dropped as long as Openmoko makes profit. :) If you really want to pay more, you could set up a Tip a Developer program... -Kevin On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Daniel Selinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:11:59 +0200 Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The prices for GTA02 and the debug board are $399 and $99, respectively. While there's nothing wrong with charging exactly 99 dollars for something, the practice of reducing a round price by one dollar, AKA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing is often associated with cheap marketing tricks, trying to make the price look less than it is and so on. In my opinion, admitting that a hundred is a hundred and charging $400 and $100 for GTA02 and the debug board would fit better into the OpenMoko spirit of openness and transparency. Especially when most of the other prices out there end with 95 or 99, a round price tag will send a message: We're honest with you and aren't messing with your mind like others do. nice thought /sign ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Terminology (was: Charging Neo Freerunner via USB port)
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/4/19, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Feature phones only differ between talk time and standby time. For us, it's a bit more complicated, since we have more modes. Can we agree on the following: usage time = CPU is powered on, lots of peripherals have power and you're actually talking and doing lots of things. standby time = CPU is powered on, but the display and most peripherals are off to save power. You are doing something that requires the CPU to be on though. suspend time = CPU is powered off. only gsm (and RTC and some other wakeup sources) are listening for events. Why can't we keep the existing terminology? As you're going to state here, not everyone agrees on what the existing terminology means. You can call it whatever you want as long as everyone using the term understands what the terms mean. Mickey's terms clear up the ambiguity. I think what you refer to as 'suspend time' should really be called 'standby time', since it is how most people think of it - how long will the battery last when the phone is not being used. That makes assumptions that we can't be sure of yet. We should work to clear up those assumptions first. What you call 'usage time' I think we could keep calling 'talk time', since it seems to me to be the same thing, and is in common use. Broadcasting a GSM signal uses more power than playing Sudoko so the times will be different. I don't think either term here really clears that up. How much talk time does the Freerunner currently get? This means while broadcasting GSM signal. How much usage time can the Freerunner get, for instance playing sudoku? What is the frame in between? Could someone expect 10 hours of sit on my desk while I sleep and have the phone do nothing? Does this drop to 6 hours when playing music via a bluetooth headset (since it's processing audio and broadcasting over BT). What battery life could someone expect while making a call from full charge to battery death while using a Bluetooth headset? Perhaps a battery life FAQ might make more sense... I'll see if I can't start one. What you call 'standby time' doesn't seem like a very important state to me, I would think that for most people the phone would either be used (what you call 'usage time'), or in your pocket or whatever, when you want maximum battery time, what you call 'suspend time'. There's a critical difference, but exactly how requires more information. The GTA01 currently can't accept incoming calls while in suspend, so for the average person suspend is useless since suspending does NOTHING except essentially decrease boot time - it has the same functionality as turning the device off and uses more power. Can the Freerunner resume on incoming call? If so, someone could suspend the device and toss it in their pocket/purse, reap maximum battery life AND keep the primary functionality intact. If it can't resume on incoming call, I'd agree it's essentially useless. Maybe we could call it 'music playback time', since that seems to be one usage of this mode. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which applications are usable
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Bastian Muck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 To this i have a little question. I didn't find the ESC-key (which is essentially in vi(m)) and i also didn't find the CTRL-key. Whithout this a simple tail can make you to kill the hole window. The current keyboard in the Openmoko images is not the keyboard that will be shipped. The full QWERTY keyboard had a bug that broke important functions, so the multi-tap input was dropped in as a replacement. Because this doesn't have a (-) or a CTRL or a / key, it's essentially useless for terminal. Raster is working on a replacement keyboard. When it ends up in the images is unknown. Greetings Bastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: | On 4/18/08, *Eildert Groeneveld* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | On Friday 18 April 2008, Tim Shannon wrote: | I love that the terminal is one of the requisite applications. This is | definitely a phone I'm looking forward to. | | Indeed, just imagine running vi on a phone!! The ultimate! | Eildert | | | At least if you use an external keyboard! | And use vim (vi improved) instead of vi so you get the added functionality (e.g. code completion is nice when you don't have an external keyboard) and syntax highlighing (since it can be difficoult to detect typo's) :) | -- | Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html | | Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: | URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 | | - | | ___ | Openmoko community mailing list | community@lists.openmoko.org | http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFICMSFlYiDScJJ+7QRAoY7AKDEAyoBpY1ZPrSFx9o/zc/q3Z3bqQCglfJj otnJQ3ntO/AkmbRnBcxg0/Y= =E696 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework
I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully functional, the only problem is that it's not as efficient as it could be, just like every other product on the planet. For those saying wait another month I've got a different arguement - let's NOT hire people to make the changes, purchase the equipment needed to do it. If a missing transistor is really upsetting someone that much, the open nature of Openmoko works in your favor because you can wait until the units you consider defective are sold out. I, for one, don't want to pay the costs (and I will, if Openmoko decides to wait and add the transistor for goodwill) that will be incurred and spread over the rest of the product line. I'm QUITE happy to take a v5 and go along on my merry way. It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5 unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way to solve the problem. -Kevin On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree with you. I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the goal :) : to provides the best free phones. It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known issue with optimisation of power consumption and LED stuff.. I understand the rush ;) but we can wait... On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenMoko team: It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework to solve the current leakage issue. Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time is a Bad Idea. pull up your socks and do the rework if that delays launch by 30 days so be it. besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;) -ron jeffries. CONTEXT: -- Forwarded message -- From: Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future Button and LED software spec) On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a little electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering! Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for all GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any problem at all. Yes maybe it can be fixed. But is the fix documented yet? Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping transistors or whatever) before they are shipped? How much would it cost to get that done in China? -- Ron K. Jeffries http://blog.eronj.com http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Our new Main page of wiki
The table colors have too little contrast, I think. It's readable, but I have to force myself to do so. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a vote: I like the old one more. Am 17.04.2008 um 12:58 schrieb Ivo Anjo: Hi. Personally, I liked the old one better, and the colors on this one (mainly the background color of the tables) are pretty agressive. Ivo On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Brenda Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, all: Here is the new main page of our wiki. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Test_main_page It will switch to Main page soon. Please feel free to give us your feedback . Regards Brenda ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which applications are usable
I do reviews using the GTA01 and will begin doing reviews on the GTA02 as soon as I have it. Currently, I use the Neo1973 (GTA01) as my primary phone. Call quality is decent. There are some stability issues that come and go as the code is tweaked and such. Just about everything in a default image that works on the GTA01 works on Freerunner, from what I hear. Sending and receiving SMS messages works fine. Incoming calls work fine. Outgoing calls work fine. You can save contacts to your address book and recall them. You can play some basic games. You can set reminders in the calendar, use the calculator. Listen to music (mp3 and Vorbis are the only I've tested, but probably others too). Again, I've not gotten my hands on a Freerunner yet, so assuming there's not some massive bug and an internal conspiracy to conceal it, that should be about the same on Freerunner. :) On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Eildert Groeneveld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello List with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are currently in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call. What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the current qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful) greetings Eildert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which applications are usable
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marcus can you please inform me of how long the battery lasts on your neo 1973? on average ... Not Marcus but I have an answer. :) Using the Dim first, don't lock mode which dims the screen after a few seconds and then turns off the backlight, it's about 5 hours on standby. Less than that if you're actually using the device. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 16:41 +0200, Eildert Groeneveld wrote: with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are currently in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call. What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the current qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful) Adding to what Kevin said I can say that GPS work very well too. I hae been playing a bit with the software stack and being a great fan of openstreetmap I developed a little mapping software using these maps. If you want to check it out, there are packages for your desktop too, i.e. for Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora and eeePC. The homepage is http://www.tangogps.org/ And I fully agree with Kevin that the Openmoko team has done a good job in bringing a usable set of apps to us: I use my neo 1973 without major probs on a daily basis. Actually I love the web browser links in graphical mode. Beats everything out there ;-) Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which applications are usable
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanx kevin, that's no good, when does it start warning about low battery?, or does it even do that? It doesn't. This is perhaps my single BIGGEST complaint. I don't really mind that the battery dies in 5 hours, because I can plug it up within that window. What bothers the hell out of me is that the phone runs itself into the ground to the point where it can't even be turned on without an hour of slow charging. :( I understand this is a firmware issue and that at least this last part has been corrected in the Freerunner. On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marcus can you please inform me of how long the battery lasts on your neo 1973? on average ... Not Marcus but I have an answer. :) Using the Dim first, don't lock mode which dims the screen after a few seconds and then turns off the backlight, it's about 5 hours on standby. Less than that if you're actually using the device. On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 16:41 +0200, Eildert Groeneveld wrote: with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are currently in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call. What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the current qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful) Adding to what Kevin said I can say that GPS work very well too. I hae been playing a bit with the software stack and being a great fan of openstreetmap I developed a little mapping software using these maps. If you want to check it out, there are packages for your desktop too, i.e. for Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora and eeePC. The homepage is http://www.tangogps.org/ And I fully agree with Kevin that the Openmoko team has done a good job in bringing a usable set of apps to us: I use my neo 1973 without major probs on a daily basis. Actually I love the web browser links in graphical mode. Beats everything out there ;-) Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions, CDMA isn't used much. Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network soon (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the near future. Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively closed network doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like That's cool. Will it work with Verizon? or That's cool. Will it work with Sprint?. And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my friends are with att (even though they're supposedly the largest wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to att solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination fee). So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think that'd about double your sales in the US. -Steven ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko roadmap
Speaking realistically, it's impossible for Openmoko to reveal that information and no have it hurt sales, for EXACTLY the reason you mentioned. As a support (and Neo1973 owner) I debated with this myself. Why pay for a phone today when I KNOW the newer model is around the corner? At the same time, Openmoko walked right into this since NOT revealing this is going to levy charges of You're not being open like you said you would. Frankly, I want a phone powered by Free Software. If Openmoko needs to conceal future product plans to ensure that, so be it. In a little bit of a less objective based answer and a more reality based answer: Openmoko Inc. is a young company. So far they've not released their debut product to the market they intend to. In a very real way, how well Freerunner does will deterime what, if ANYTHING, happens to future products that Openmoko kicks out. If they make 100x more units than they sell, there won't BE a next time. Simple, concise and efficient answer: If you want a GTA03, buy a GTA02. Failure to do so is failure to ensure there will be a future model. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:20:44 Peter Abplanalp wrote: with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones. i'm an advanced linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still an advanced user phone. does anyone at openmoko know when we might expect the next phone after the freerunner? if it is going to be more than a year or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone would be a year or less away, i may wait. I don't think Om Inc. will take the risk of repeating the potential Osborne effect. Last time it already did enough damage. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G? What about CDMA?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see how GSM is much less closed of a network protocol than CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference). Stop thinking in terms of the technology itself and think in terms of a userbase. In the majority of the world, a CDMA phone would be a restriction on the number of carriers you can use and where. In the US, it's Sprint and Verizon (and even that is only true short term). There are some Japanese carriers that are also CDMA. Everywhere else uses GSM. GSM is in every European market, and there are a LOT of potential customers in Europe. Openmoko is about openness, not just about open source. Even the model being used to sell the devices tries to break away from the Go to your carrier's store and buy the device to use on their network paradigm. Buy your phone, powered by Free Software, and pick any of the carriers who use the most common cellular technology on the planet. The GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo. A CDMA chip would be no different. Even if that doesn't work for you, it's a dumb investment to NOT aim for the largest market possible. By making a CDMA-based phone, Openmoko only captures a small percentage of the total number of worldwide cellular users. As a fledgling brand it isn't feasible to make BOTH a CDMA and a GSM based product in a debut offering - the expense is too high with the unknown to big a variable. As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA conflicts with that. I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing. It seems odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider. Lack of choice is the #1 complaint Verizon got from their customers. Verizon Exclusive phones that they couldn't use off the Verizon network. Phones they owned from their other carrier that couldn't be used on Verizon. Because of this market pressure, Verizon is switching their networks to GSM so that they can seamlessly compete with GSM providers (which is the majority of the market). It's in the interest of Verizon AND the customers to standardize on a single set of technology and GSM is that standard. It is possible that by the time Verizon's GSM network is up (2009, from what I heard) the Freerunner will be mass market. In that case, the only network that it won't work on is Sprint's. You can debate over who is exactly at fault in that situation; all the handset makers worldwide or Sprint. -Steven On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions, CDMA isn't used much. Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network soon (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the near future. Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively closed network doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo Freerunner all the time. Inevitably, they say something like That's cool. Will it work with Verizon? or That's cool. Will it work with Sprint?. And of course, the answer is no... I don't think any of my friends are with att (even though they're supposedly the largest wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider. They're all on Sprint or Verizon. I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to att solely for the Neo. But most people aren't willing to do that (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination fee). So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo? I think that'd about double your sales in the US. -Steven ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Trading in €uros ?
The figure in USD is as innacurate as anything else. You're not actually paying $399 USD, you're paying the number of New Taiwan Dollars that can be exchanged for $399 USD. Rebasing the price in ANY currency means absolutely nothing since (assuming you aren't paying exchange premiums) it's the same price. Of course, they could say 399 Euros, in which case it would be getting more expensive for EVERYONE. On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Didier Raboud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Didier Raboud wrote: Hi, Just wondering. With the actual fall of the U$D, why not setting the Neo's prices in €uros ? (Which is actually pretty strong.) (or ¥ens, ...) This would imply a rising price (with time) for American customers instead of a falling one for European ones. Actually, the actual situation is good for me if the U$D continues to go down : my future Neo will cost less to me. :) Regards, OdyX, aka Didier Raboud Just to precise my thoughts... The idea is not to have a rise of the price for American customers, but to protect the value of the future Neo against a fall of the U$D. If the U$D continues to fall, the real income back to FIC will fall with time. FIC will then have to augment its prices which is not desirable... Well... I'm not that much in Finance, so don't give my thoughts too much value. Regards, Didier ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: DHL has a package for me!
Ihre Ausweis! On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:57 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My samples arrived! I'm in customs hell. They want me to prove I am an american. So I have to send them a copy of My social security card or my taxes. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What should be included in packaging (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)
I'm in the same position as Bobby. I use my Neo as my primary phone as well as my digital media player. I haven't touched the lanyard or the pouch since I took them out of the box. But I also don't use my stylus. My stylus was neat in the beginning, because I could use it to play with my cats, but as a functional part of the Neo I find it a hinderance. I bring this up because I think it MIGHT be relevant. The Neo doesn't have a slot for a stylus. In the discussion of what will be an accessory and what will be part of the package, I think the stylus is the only one that has an actual impact to the software. If the stylus is NOT included in the box, the software should be written in a way to not need it. I'd personally be QUITE happy with this but I'm pretty sure there are many people who would disagree. But if the software won't be thumb oriented, the stylus is NOT an accessory. I like Bobby's idea, the click here to buy this accessory but I think Steve has pretty much ruled that out. Openmoko isn't going to purchase and stock items without a profit and if it did that, it would be passing unneeded expense to the customer. What I think is the most prudent method to take is to have an openmoko branded Approved stamp. This could be community OR vendor initiated. I know that my iGo charger works without issue on the Neo with the Check Fast Charge applet. I see no reason that Openmoko couldn't recommend this on the site once the product goes mainstream. It would allow the customer to make their own decisions, still leave a TON of options, let the customer pick the best price and ensure a decently high level of quality. On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 10:33 -0500, Bobby Martin wrote: I lost the stylus (it's way too cool; if you forget it at a restaurant or something, you don't get a call asking if you want it back :-) They are $3 a piece w/ shipping included if you take ten. For example this one here: http://cgi.ebay.com/10-x-4in1-Red-LASER-Pointer-LED-Torch-PDA-Stylus-PEN_W0QQitemZ220223455957QQihZ012QQ No need to buy another Neo to get a new pen ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
