Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Andy Green wrote: About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. It would seem that they are synthetic and have to do with how GPSD parses and interprets NMEA sentences. The other two reference receivers are put in SiRF mode and don't seem to suffer this effect. Has anyone figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be curious to see if that changes anything. For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the card as hard as you can for this test. It seems that gpsprof gets a value of 10,000,000,000 for NaN and doesn't check if lat/long values are in range before calculating the average. It doesn't take very many 10 Billion values to really screw up the average :-) I modified gpsprof to toss out invalid lat/long values. What actually happened when gpsd died? With that and the extreme nature of the last result I wonder if something else goes on. One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html I did some more testing yesterday after compiling the latest version of GPSD for the FreeRunner (it no longer dies when I spam the SDCard... that's progress :-) but have not yet got the results pulled together. -stacy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: Thanks for your work Stacy. | About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a | second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But | it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a | lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. | | It would seem that they are synthetic and have to do with how GPSD | parses and interprets NMEA sentences. The other two reference receivers | are put in SiRF mode and don't seem to suffer this effect. Has anyone | figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be | curious to see if that changes anything. It's actually documented by Ublox in here (Okular eats it) http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/gps.g3/ANTARIS_Protocol_Specification(GPS.G3-X-03002).chm Here's a UBX packet generator in Bash http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-July/003782.html and here is how to inject the packets from Ash echo 0 /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron sleep 1s echo 1 /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron stty -F /dev/ttySAC1 -echo cat MY-UBX-PACKET /dev/ttySAC1 cat -u /dev/ttySAC1 | grep -v ^$ | For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are | within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with | the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including | ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the | card as hard as you can for this test. | | It seems that gpsprof gets a value of 10,000,000,000 for NaN and doesn't | check if lat/long values are in range before calculating the average. It | doesn't take very many 10 Billion values to really screw up the average | :-) I modified gpsprof to toss out invalid lat/long values. OK makes a lot of sense :-) | Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html | | I did some more testing yesterday after compiling the latest version of | GPSD for the FreeRunner (it no longer dies when I spam the SDCard... | that's progress :-) but have not yet got the results pulled together. Doesn't look a million miles away from being right... there are two outliers shown and I guess the filtered NaN(s), but basically all the other samples are in a decent place. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiYdOsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrLkACgjAm1Img8f2Loku2+o84kHx/y jjYAnjAtxtRk5l3iu2H2F7HyBvT8NW1F =Z++i -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Andy Green wrote: | Has anyone | figured out how to kick the GPS receiver into UBX mode? I would be | curious to see if that changes anything. It's actually documented by Ublox in here (Okular eats it) http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/gps.g3/ANTARIS_Protocol_Specification(GPS.G3-X-03002).chm I've been reading that, but have not had any success in getting any UBX output... I have managed to disable NMEA (both using $PUBX NMEA extensions and your UBX generator) but then I get no data on the tty. | Additional test results (from 20080802) are up at | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html Doesn't look a million miles away from being right... there are two outliers shown and I guess the filtered NaN(s), but basically all the other samples are in a decent place. Atleast one of the outliers had multiple samples, but I am suspicious of those being synthetic as well. From the bit of testing I have done so far, it would seem that heavy use of the SDCard can cause the CEP to increase by 25%-50% but it is still typically better than the reference receivers. I had hoped to do my next round of testing in UBX mode (if that solves the issue with samples coming faster than once a second). If I can't get that figured out soon, I will just configure the GPS to only emit GGA sentences, then I will only get one fix per second from gpsd. -stacy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SDcard interferenceissue
I talked with Tony this morning he said he uploaded it -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Green Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:34 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SDcard interferenceissue -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? | | Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's | easy enough to do | And undo. Did you ever do it, steve? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRzVQACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpGLwCeO+mNJpn0Fk/bMnaoSN3n6o5a 1bEAniOPccvfrk8WZ+/lIUjVlxUE5pZd =xFkQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework forSD card interferenceissue
A proper Kalman Filter, I would think, would have such limits since it should have a model of vehicle dynamics. Andy do you have any idea of the duration of SD IO? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Green Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:44 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework forSD card interferenceissue -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be | used to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each | other, and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a | good rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Whether that is any better than just filtering between previous and later samples I doubt. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRz5EACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpNLQCfcPdC9ZdSelPGiP+D9TVapDI0 94AAnjkmnCWge5RxXewJ40gchhA1n+Ne =jCLG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches | aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's | packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if | they made any change :-) | | - -Andy | | | | Hi Andy, | To get that kernel you reference would I go to | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/freerunner/ | then to the latest date (like tomorrow) and look for | uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin? | | Just want to make sure I have this right. Yes the one for 31st is updated already. You might be better using opkg for it, you can find the kernel packages here http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/ Something be aware of we moved Ethernet over USB into a module now, Thomas B found you will need to opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether depmod before rebooting. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSpbEACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqQBwCfSRQFgCT57QZZnv97FHJQsb1O vVsAn2D1wRSqYuO5kf765qaocZruiDVL =mAZD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Andy Green wrote: Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and | TangoGPS. | Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but | when I move indoors, | gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really | it did). | | So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think | I will have to have that | capacitor fix. I dunno how a 10pF capacitor on SD_CLK is going to fix the GPS chip acting erratic when it genuinely loses the satellites as you move indoors. FWIW you'll need to wait for tomorrow's kernels to get yesterday's two fixes in there. - -Andy Hi Andy, I'm the guy who said that. Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix is supposed to help on that ... right? This was all guesswork on my part. If somebody could help with how to make observations on GPS performance, I'd be glad to do testing and provide input. The kernel update is going on as I type this. So will test again today if possible. And don't worry ... will be doing the hardware fix only after OM finally, after all software fixes, decides it will still help / otherwise not. -- Vibhav ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | After a reboot, it worked ok so its a false alarm - sorry! Thanks for clearing it up. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSqhMACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoNKACfRwjF9AzZYTAxKMV2hcHxoGot zTcAn3ZHN+SwDlJ6BwKXNV3JV67cMaka =bx00 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Hi there! I'm not Andy obviously, but I think I still can answer that one ;) Hi Andy, I'm the guy who said that. Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix is supposed to help on that ... right? Actually, the first number in 10/x/y in TangoGPS' status line represents the number of visible satellites, not the number of fixes you got. So if it says 10/0/x, that means you can see 10 satellites, but don't have a fix (because, for example, the signal is too weak). So it's quite normal you didn't get a gps trace if the second number was 0. HTH, Konstantin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Actually I based my observation on the fact that i saw an entry of | 10/x/y as the endmost entry on the TangoGPS status line. | Isn't that supposed to mean that it still has fixes from 10 satellites. Our GPS chip is quite capable to report garbage as fact, for a while anyway. I also saw things like 12 satellites each with individual SNR reported, when I inserted or removed internal antenna while powered (something you aren't meant to do BTW). After some seconds these disappeared from the reporting back to the virtual reality they came from. So madness under extreme circumstances is normal for it I believe. | So I thought it must be a SNR issue and the capacitor fix | is supposed to help on that ... right? At the time the cap workaround was conceived, we ran SD_CLK all the time even with the card idle and did not test for what it does during card transactions. Since then, the way we treat the card has gotten seriously more optimized: ~ - SD_CLK is stopped unless we are making an access ~ - Voltage to shipping SD Card is reduced to 2.7V from 3.3V ~ - Edges on all SD signals have reduced slew rate ~ - SD_CLK rate is reduced if GPS unit is powered The reason I avoid recommending the cap is there are 6 signals going to the card, not just SD_CLK, and during transfer 5 of them have a lot of rapid transitions. The reasoning for cherrypicking SD_CLK is no longer entirely valid. | This was all guesswork on my part. If somebody could help with how to | make observations on GPS performance, I'd be glad to | do testing and provide input. I'm afraid I don't know the userspace apps. I literally cat the serial port and read the NMEA. Maybe someone else can advise, this Tango GPS thing seems to be widely admired. | The kernel update is going on as I type this. So will test again today | if possible. And don't worry ... will be doing the hardware | fix only after OM finally, after all software fixes, decides it will | still help / otherwise not. Great, more info the better we can understand where we are at. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSrNcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpomACdGwqta90evIBOQdaKfiJT8jt4 FV0AoI2NVwAiSoxG2uEKCSEc+Dmj+wWN =w8aN -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Le vendredi 01 août 2008, Andy Green a écrit : opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether Having updated the kernel and everything, I get a FATAL error with that: opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether Installing kernel-module-g-ether (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-g-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk Installing kernel-module-cdc-ether (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-cdc-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk Configuring kernel-module-cdc-ether Configuring kernel-module-g-ether FATAL: Module g_ether not found. Then the module is not loaded at boot time. I have to cd /lib/modules/2.6.24/kernel/drivers/usb/gadget insmod g_ether.ko /etc/init.d/networking restart Minh -- Minh HA-DUONGChargé de recherche CNRS [EMAIL PROTECTED] CIRED, Campus du Jardin Tropical tel: +33 1 43 94 73 81 45bis ave. de la Belle Gabrielle fax: +33 1 43 94 73 70F94736 Nogent-sur-Marne, France Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://minh.haduong.com (work), http://minh69.blogspot.com (personal) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Le vendredi 01 août 2008, Andy Green a écrit : | opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether | | Having updated the kernel and everything, I get a FATAL error with that: | | opkg install kernel-module-g-ether kernel-module-cdc-ether | Installing kernel-module-g-ether | (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... | Downloading | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-g-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk | Installing kernel-module-cdc-ether | (2:2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2) to root... | Downloading | http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/om-gta02/kernel-module-cdc-ether_2.6.24+git27+1a95efdc23966343a3b432ceef2f6c24dc0e2052-r2_om-gta02.ipk | Configuring kernel-module-cdc-ether | Configuring kernel-module-g-ether | FATAL: Module g_ether not found. | | Then the module is not loaded at boot time. | | I have to | cd /lib/modules/2.6.24/kernel/drivers/usb/gadget | insmod g_ether.ko | /etc/init.d/networking restart Did you run the depmod step recommended by Thomas B? I guess it can by why you had to insmod instead of modprobe. The packages should do it on install, but evidently not or it didn't complete far enough. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSyTsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqcaACfT7NA4fMLvPcNzVgEAlti3iJA 1CUAn1M2lzs8MirrBDrpg5clbN7zfuuH =Ez0Z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Vinc Duran schrieb: But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? No, you need both accelerometer *and* gyro measurements for dead reckoning. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
On Friday 01 August 2008, Vinc Duran wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Andreas Bogk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas Andreas, Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Al Johnson schrieb: We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. Well, if this: http://www.invensense.com/products/idg_300.html had three axes instead of two, it would be suitable... it's designed for small size and low cost. All other gyros I've found so far are too big for a mobile phone application. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Al Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We only need to replace 1 of the 2 3D accels with a 3D gyro. I've not looked at the size or cost of solid state gyros so I don't know how practical that might be. That's not a bad idea... I haven't looked into what accelerometers we have in the FR, but there are plenty of MEMS gyros available; maybe one will have the same or similar pin configuration. I know the gyros and accelerometers made by Analog Devices are very close to pin compatible. Last time I checked (about a year ago), there weren't any 3D MEMS gyros on the market. There was one company offering what was basically 2 2D gyros glued to each other. I think there's some kind of manufacturing hurdle that has to be overcome to make them 3D, so they may not be available in a small size or integrated unit. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | and a negative - I moved the maps in tangoGPS from /tmp to the (orig | freerunner) sdcard and it only works partially or not at all. This is | offline usage. If I am online and I delete the map cache so tango | starts clean, it loads the maps fine - probably caches them in ram. If | I go offline to move around, only the maps cached in ram are displayed. | I can see the files on the sd card so that part is ok. | | If I use /tmp tango is fine. Sorry when you say works partially or not at all, what is the symptom? ~ Is that a GPS issue or a maps on SD Card data retrieval issue? Which kernel? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRbAYACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqEJACdFaBF+0Mja4QCWYotfW6o/QEV tRoAn0asAwK2ReeUR4qmRCcKdgX46/mc =YKC/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's easy enough to do And undo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:14 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue I haven't had any problems with TTFF since the software update was done. In fact my impression from all the emails on the subject was that the software fix was enough. Try putting tangogps in a configuration where its updating the tiles frequently - zoom way in, so that you have a closeup of your map, and then walk around a bit. In between tile updates, GPS will go way off the map. Thats the problem: its a workaround, but not a complete, effective fix. Looks like we have to have the capacitor-fix in place to make this work smoothly without further glitches .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Hmm. Jay... Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? They are noisy and drift but for short periods MIGHT be able to keep wild errors in mapping from occuring. Just a thought. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:24 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue (We have external LNA) It means it can track with a 16dBm reduction in GPS signal after it made the satellite acquisitions. So if you understood it will get a fix OK with the software workaround, and we saw many people report this, you should expect the tracking phase to work better than the acquisition phase since the signal requirement is relaxed by 16dBm. My experience has proven that this is not the case; yes the fix happens sooner, but if SD I/O occurs during tracking phase, wild errors are still introduced into the GPS signal sufficient to drive us off the map. Just sayin', not trying to stir the pot. I've been testing this GPS fix every day since it arrived, by tracking my progress to work, and if I zoom too closely (meaning there is more SD I/O on map refreshes) the GPS goes wild. That'll be interesting. But in the real world many thing perturb GPS tracking and sophisticated software filters are anyway used to try to see through excursions, I guess this will be the case for typical SD Card usage pattern here. My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also tracking .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? | | Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's | easy enough to do | And undo. Did you ever do it, steve? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRzVQACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpGLwCeO+mNJpn0Fk/bMnaoSN3n6o5a 1bEAniOPccvfrk8WZ+/lIUjVlxUE5pZd =xFkQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
steve schrieb: Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good rotation from them. Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used | to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, | and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good | rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Whether that is any better than just filtering between previous and later samples I doubt. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRz5EACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpNLQCfcPdC9ZdSelPGiP+D9TVapDI0 94AAnjkmnCWge5RxXewJ40gchhA1n+Ne =jCLG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | steve schrieb: | Amaybe when SD I/O occurs one could use the accelerometers to dead reckon? | | Dead reckoning without gyros is pretty hard. In theory, the two | accelerometers are not mounted in the same place and thus could be used | to derive rotation, but in practice they're pretty close to each other, | and given the noise of measurement one is unlikely to derive a good | rotation from them. I don't think we need to worry about it, but in fact we wouldn't need to dead-reckon. All we would need it for would be to put a ceiling on claims from noisy GPS about what accelerations we could have experienced. If the GPS sample says we jumped 100m in 1s, but the accels didn't really see anything, we could ignore or meddle with the GPS sample. Inertial navigation systems for the masses! Anyone here who wants to write a kalman filter? Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
This one? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta02_gps_10pf_rework_sop.pdf On Thursday 31 July 2008, steve wrote: Do folks know wher to find the SOP for the cap fix? Tony, if you havent already, go ahead and post the SOP for the cap fix. It's easy enough to do And undo. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Tilman Baumann wrote: Andy Green wrote: Inertial navigation systems for the masses! Anyone here who wants to write a kalman filter? Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. Hi, I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and TangoGPS. Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but when I move indoors, gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really it did). So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think I will have to have that capacitor fix. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Besides the point that a small pocket-IMU would be great. To GPS jumts that big exist? As fas as i understand GPS it should have little jitter. Trimble had a few GPS models out with dead reckoning. Not pocket sized. I think they are all off the market now. I got one off Ebay a few weeks ago but have not had time to set it up yet. To me it's more interesting reading the manuals and learning how it works since I don't use my car more than once a month. Trimble was addressing loss of signal in urban canyons not (ahem) antenna placement issues. See http://www.trimble.com/tms/placer450.aspx?dtID=overview They use a small gyroscope. There are much smaller gyros available now but my intuition from reading their materials is that it will work in a car if you are going fast enough (they want you to go 22 mph) to generate steady predictable g forces but if you are going at a walking pace it would never work. If you are walking around and want a reasonable position the Kalman filter would probably be easier to deal with. Is there a mathematician in the house? Brian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm using OM2007.2 updated to today morning (Thursday July 31), and | TangoGPS. | Also have the map cache directory on the card. Normally works fine, but | when I move indoors, | gps shows 10 satellite fixes and gives my speed as 482 Km/h (really | it did). | | So either I broke the land speed record for a guy on foot ... or I think | I will have to have that | capacitor fix. I dunno how a 10pF capacitor on SD_CLK is going to fix the GPS chip acting erratic when it genuinely loses the satellites as you move indoors. FWIW you'll need to wait for tomorrow's kernels to get yesterday's two fixes in there. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSDf0ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMq0iQCdEkhemui8JzNoBt3NeyOGD55P /nkAni7SJUfnNdS+cOzZL2l9PmTQ+X8X =TUti -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
I did some testing today to add some more data points (or fuel on the fire, depending on your point of view :-) What I did was run three test, one with the SD card removed, one with the SD card installed but idle and one with the SD card being used heavily. For each test, I ran simultaneous tests on two other GPS receivers to give a reference point. The short version is that SD card activity really messes up the GPS, the long version can be found here (complete with pretty plots and tables and everything :-) : http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
Brian Wilson schrieb: See http://www.trimble.com/tms/placer450.aspx?dtID=overview They use a small gyroscope. [...] If you are walking around and want a reasonable position the Kalman filter would probably be easier to deal with. Is there a mathematician in the house? I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I did some testing today to add some more data points (or fuel on the | fire, depending on your point of view :-) Let's say you did nice work there enabling us to converge on an understanding of the issue :-) | What I did was run three test, one with the SD card removed, one with | the SD card installed but idle and one with the SD card being used | heavily. For each test, I ran simultaneous tests on two other GPS | receivers to give a reference point. | | The short version is that SD card activity really messes up the GPS, the | long version can be found here (complete with pretty plots and tables | and everything :-) : | | http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/neoFreeRunner/gpstale.html About the 600sec thing, you can get the GPS chip to report 4 times a second instead of once a second, maybe that can be to do with it. But it is strange, noticing the heavy filtering on our results I wonder if a lot of those samples coming so quickly were actually synthetic. For the last result, it seems to show only 2 / 2500 results from GPS are within 20 Million meters of the location. It's hard to square that with the other decent results that have been reported for tracking, including ones pulling maps from SD Card, although I guess you are spamming the card as hard as you can for this test. What actually happened when gpsd died? With that and the extreme nature of the last result I wonder if something else goes on. One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiSTTcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrBQgCeMsay73fnUB4O/xb24JmDZowt HnAAn1noeLVRpc0IQkPVbK9Lc+oEZLDU =/MUZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interferenceissue
On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Andreas Bogk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I'm not a mathematician, but I think I have sufficiently understood Kalman filters and dead reckoning. A little known trick is to use ordinary integration with the strap-down equation given the accelerometer and gyro input, and have the Kalman filter model the error terms instead of the physical model state space. This way, you only have to update the Kalman filter every time you get a GPS fix, not every time you get a measurement from the other sensors. But... what are our chances GTA03 will have a 3D gyro? Andreas Andreas, Could the accelerometers be substituted for a 3d gyro? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
One last thing, the voltage scaling and clock rate reduction patches aren't in the kernel you used, they should be around in tomorrow's packages: if you have 600 sec to spare it would be interesting to see if they made any change :-) - -Andy Hi Andy, To get that kernel you reference would I go to http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/freerunner/ then to the latest date (like tomorrow) and look for uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin? Just want to make sure I have this right. Thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
After a reboot, it worked ok so its a false alarm - sorry! BillK On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 08:38 +0100, Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | and a negative - I moved the maps in tangoGPS from /tmp to the (orig | freerunner) sdcard and it only works partially or not at all. This is | offline usage. If I am online and I delete the map cache so tango | starts clean, it loads the maps fine - probably caches them in ram. If | I go offline to move around, only the maps cached in ram are displayed. | I can see the files on the sd card so that part is ok. | | If I use /tmp tango is fine. Sorry when you say works partially or not at all, what is the symptom? ~ Is that a GPS issue or a maps on SD Card data retrieval issue? Which kernel? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRbAYACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqEJACdFaBF+0Mja4QCWYotfW6o/QEV tRoAn0asAwK2ReeUR4qmRCcKdgX46/mc =YKC/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
(We have external LNA) It means it can track with a 16dBm reduction in GPS signal after it made the satellite acquisitions. So if you understood it will get a fix OK with the software workaround, and we saw many people report this, you should expect the tracking phase to work better than the acquisition phase since the signal requirement is relaxed by 16dBm. My experience has proven that this is not the case; yes the fix happens sooner, but if SD I/O occurs during tracking phase, wild errors are still introduced into the GPS signal sufficient to drive us off the map. Just sayin', not trying to stir the pot. I've been testing this GPS fix every day since it arrived, by tracking my progress to work, and if I zoom too closely (meaning there is more SD I/O on map refreshes) the GPS goes wild. That'll be interesting. But in the real world many thing perturb GPS tracking and sophisticated software filters are anyway used to try to see through excursions, I guess this will be the case for typical SD Card usage pattern here. My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also tracking .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
I would take this to mean that your current location drifts from the actual spot to places not quite where you are standing. Exactly. I will try to upload some logs (just discovered the /tmp change in tangogps, grr.. some test data has been lost) in the next few days that demonstrate this factor, just so its clear. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
2008/7/30 Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just sayin', not trying to stir the pot. I've been testing this GPS fix every day since it arrived, by tracking my progress to work, and if I zoom too closely (meaning there is more SD I/O on map refreshes) the GPS goes wild. Do you (all) have also the latest fixes from http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=stable , ie. kernel new enough to have fix-glamo-mci-set-default-drive-level-0.patch from 7 days ago? Just checking. -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Just sayin', not trying to stir the pot. I've been testing this GPS | fix every day since it arrived, by tracking my progress to work, and | if I zoom too closely (meaning there is more SD I/O on map refreshes) | the GPS goes wild. | | That'll be interesting. But in the real world many thing perturb GPS | tracking and sophisticated software filters are anyway used to try to | see through excursions, I guess this will be the case for typical SD | Card usage pattern here. | | My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no | obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively | impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also | tracking .. We're not done with what we can do to mitigate it in software. These guys should be in tomorrow's kernel. http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=commitdiff;h=00e20ff234e6d35a6df7e86c043fdda7da06bf04 http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=commitdiff;h=792fb6dd55c282de25005a1399ffaa084ece4b1c http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=commitdiff;h=6d8e14dc4253f3921aff1bbbeb3caf073aa6a7b2 http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=commitdiff;h=d4b28ec4e2818207cc0e48b90dbce581e0b779e7 - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQWDIACgkQOjLpvpq7dMru7wCgjs6cWTAi+NDEKLkGmU6Fa5aq 4jMAn2yuyLjsVCEDcIawQF7MkXa34zMK =Zrxt -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
On Jul 30, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Jay Vaughan wrote: My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also tracking .. That's strange. I didn't test GPS too much, but for example today I launched TangoGPS when driving to work. I zoomed in (but not to maximum) and took track log. First of all, it got fix from 11 satellites (out of 14 visible) very quickly. Track is very accurate (no jump-offs the road) in the city. Earlier I used Garmin GPS60 and tracks from it were way worse than from FR. I used today's kernel and u-boot. BR, Pawel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | On Jul 30, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Jay Vaughan wrote: | My ride to and from work is through a wide open space with no | obstructions, lots of blue sky, and for sure .. SD I/O still massively | impacts GPS *accuracy*. Not just in the acquisition phase, but also | tracking .. | | That's strange. I didn't test GPS too much, but for example today I | launched | TangoGPS when driving to work. I zoomed in (but not to maximum) and took | track log. First of all, it got fix from 11 satellites (out of 14 | visible) very quickly. | Track is very accurate (no jump-offs the road) in the city. Earlier I | used Garmin | GPS60 and tracks from it were way worse than from FR. | | I used today's kernel and u-boot. That's pretty encouraging, thanks. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQWkYACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpBcwCdGawNO1luB74buwBglSovvt3A uxMAoIZmhcB899sx7GP4TVMiOjtwyAq8 =Kdkw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Jay Vaughan wrote: (We have external LNA) It means it can track with a 16dBm reduction in GPS signal after it made the satellite acquisitions. So if you understood it will get a fix OK with the software workaround, and we saw many people report this, you should expect the tracking phase to work better than the acquisition phase since the signal requirement is relaxed by 16dBm. My experience has proven that this is not the case; yes the fix happens sooner, but if SD I/O occurs during tracking phase, wild errors are still introduced into the GPS signal sufficient to drive us off the map. I can confirm such experience. Usually GPS track is very good however from time to time (usually when tangogps is reading tiles) it looks like it's receiving invalid data and the GPS really goes wild. I have to admit that the GPS works really well and I've seen Paweł Kowalak's track which was awesomely accurate! I hope that those tomorrow's patches will make the GPS experience even more enjoyable. Thanks for the great work. -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
We're not done with what we can do to mitigate it in software. These guys should be in tomorrow's kernel. okay i'll continue testing and logging in the meantime .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | We're not done with what we can do to mitigate it in software. These | guys should be in tomorrow's kernel. | | | okay i'll continue testing and logging in the meantime .. Great. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQdasACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqm0wCeLwasTn32oZtKDc7jZXmeZzIy AbAAn0KQwBfpj18r9hkuG1DwQbdCMFd8 =jB3i -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
| Track is very accurate (no jump-offs the road) in the city. Earlier I | used Garmin | GPS60 and tracks from it were way worse than from FR. | | I used today's kernel and u-boot. That's pretty encouraging, thanks. Hi again, I made another test, driving back home. This time, I zoomed to lvl 17 (maximum) and saved track again. I got fix from 8 satellites (10 visible) after second turn (about 1 minute). I have pre-cached map of my city on SD card (2GB sandisk). Here is the first part of the track: http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8456/test1ru8.jpg At the begining I was completly off-road until I clicked 'autocenter', when it moved me to correct location (straight line is the offset), so I think it is TangoGPS bug. Then normal drive in traffic / traffic lights, etc. (on zoom=17). Here is another part of the track: http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9179/test2yj5.jpg I drove here almost 100km/h (but don't tell anyone) on max zoom, to read tiles faster from the card. As you can see, no jump offs from the road. So, to me, GPS works great now. I had more problems with accuracy of my Garmin outdoor device. BR, Pawel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
So, to me, GPS works great now. I had more problems with accuracy of my Garmin outdoor device. on todays drive home i also did a trace - and got wildly sporadic results when tangogps had to read maps again off the disk .. i do not have the latest kernel, however, as it doesn't appear to have propagated to my device yet. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I drove here almost 100km/h (but don't tell anyone) on max zoom, to | read tiles faster from the card. As you can see, no jump offs from the | road. | | So, to me, GPS works great now. I had more problems with accuracy of | my Garmin outdoor device. Thanks for the report Pavel, we can't be doing that bad. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQvAgACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqG4wCglAywViFM6xy0teBZPjQgsqwO HW4Ani+qbG+4hvUN9+4t2d6X9k9+j/ms =IKUp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
and a negative - I moved the maps in tangoGPS from /tmp to the (orig freerunner) sdcard and it only works partially or not at all. This is offline usage. If I am online and I delete the map cache so tango starts clean, it loads the maps fine - probably caches them in ram. If I go offline to move around, only the maps cached in ram are displayed. I can see the files on the sd card so that part is ok. If I use /tmp tango is fine. BillK On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 20:07 +0100, Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I drove here almost 100km/h (but don't tell anyone) on max zoom, to | read tiles faster from the card. As you can see, no jump offs from the | road. | | So, to me, GPS works great now. I had more problems with accuracy of | my Garmin outdoor device. Thanks for the report Pavel, we can't be doing that bad. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQvAgACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqG4wCglAywViFM6xy0teBZPjQgsqwO HW4Ani+qbG+4hvUN9+4t2d6X9k9+j/ms =IKUp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
Start with the software fix. It should slove the problem. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Annie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:01 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue what impact, if any, will there be on the warranty of the FR device once the fix has been carried out ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
From everything I've heard a software only fix will not be enough. Unless you ditch your sd card as a data store. All new FR's have the HW fix and new software will be written to take advantage of that HW platform. The software fix alone allows you to get a fast TTFF but after that, sd card data transfers are just to noisy to maintain a high quality GPS data stream. Yes it works but poorly, which is better than not at all. I have two Fr's, once I get the caps(this week). I'll do the HW fix on one, install the software fix on both, and do a side by side comparison. Does the Qtopia distro have the GPS fix and GPS software? If not is there a GPS package I can install on Qtopia? Scott steve wrote: Start with the software fix. It should slove the problem. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Annie Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:01 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue what impact, if any, will there be on the warranty of the FR device once the fix has been carried out ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Scott Derrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From everything I've heard a software only fix will not be enough. Unless you ditch your sd card as a data store. All new FR's have the HW fix and new software will be written to take advantage of that HW platform. The software fix alone allows you to get a fast TTFF but after that, sd card data transfers are just to noisy to maintain a high quality GPS data stream. Yes it works but poorly, which is better than not at all. I haven't had any problems with TTFF since the software update was done. In fact my impression from all the emails on the subject was that the software fix was enough. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | The software fix alone allows you to get a fast TTFF but after that, sd | card data transfers are just to noisy to maintain a high quality GPS | data stream. Yes it works but poorly, which is better than not at all. There's something to be aware of here, when getting the fix the GPS chip needs a much better Signal to Noise ratio than when maintaining it. Have a look at the first few lines of this: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc4928.pdf ''... – Acquisition Sensitivity: –142 dBm (Cold Start, With External LNA) – Tracking Sensitivity: –158 dBm (With External LNA) ...'' (We have external LNA) It means it can track with a 16dBm reduction in GPS signal after it made the satellite acquisitions. So if you understood it will get a fix OK with the software workaround, and we saw many people report this, you should expect the tracking phase to work better than the acquisition phase since the signal requirement is relaxed by 16dBm. | I have two Fr's, once I get the caps(this week). I'll do the HW fix on | one, install the software fix on both, and do a side by side comparison. That'll be interesting. But in the real world many thing perturb GPS tracking and sophisticated software filters are anyway used to try to see through excursions, I guess this will be the case for typical SD Card usage pattern here. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPdiwACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqNpQCdGfgx6OJlahoNMJz9p347ti4b JUAAoIhCvDCGOOlxN0eqPbYHxPkYK8nd =DEli -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Scott Derrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From everything I've heard a software only fix will not be enough. Unless you ditch your sd card as a data store. I haven't had any problems with TTFF since the software update was done. In fact my impression from all the emails on the subject was that the software fix was enough. I think what he means, is that even though there is enough signal strength to provide a quick(er) First Fix, (or ANY fix at all in some cases) that if you are hammering the card for map data, the noise generated by the clock/data lines may cause reception errors resulting in a less-than-accurate position fix being maintained. I would take this to mean that your current location drifts from the actual spot to places not quite where you are standing. I have yet to get enough $ together to buy a Freerunner myself, so I can't test/report on this, but hopefully I can clarify :) Mike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty after fix for GTA02 GPS rework for SD card interference issue
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Mike Hodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Scott Derrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From everything I've heard a software only fix will not be enough. Unless you ditch your sd card as a data store. I haven't had any problems with TTFF since the software update was done. In fact my impression from all the emails on the subject was that the software fix was enough. I think what he means, is that even though there is enough signal strength to provide a quick(er) First Fix, (or ANY fix at all in some cases) that if you are hammering the card for map data, the noise generated by the clock/data lines may cause reception errors resulting in a less-than-accurate position fix being maintained. I would take this to mean that your current location drifts from the actual spot to places not quite where you are standing. And I don't see this when using my freerunner. YMMV. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty issues
On 7/12/08 simarillion wrote: can somebody tell me if I will lose my warranty when I open my Freerunner. Hehe...do you really think we could get away with that kind of policy?! This is Openmoko. If you /don't/ open your Neo, you should probably have your warranty voided ;-) -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty issues
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: This is Openmoko. If you /don't/ open your Neo, you should probably have your warranty voided ;-) Wow, second best quote I've ever seen on this list. The first being back in early May... Andy Powell wrote: Seriously, If everyone put as much effort into development as they do into bitching and whining this phone would be able to cure cancer by now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty issues
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:42:26AM +0200, simarillion wrote: Hello, can somebody tell me if I will lose my warranty when I open my Freerunner. I don't know if I am allowed to remove the seal which is on one of the two torx screws. I don't want to solder just check the connection plug of the GPS antenna. Does it depend on the distributor or the country? I'm located in germany. Greets Michael Take a look here: http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/viewtopic.php?f=13t=251p=2614#p2614 But it still might depend on your distributor. pgpaUOsXEbuta.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: warranty for 10 pack purchases
14 day for single 28 day for 10 pack. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:37 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases Shawn wrote: Are there retailers in the US like this? Are they offering 10 packs the same as OM (with the same price and all of the goodies)? I had asked a question a while back about the warranty of individual units in a 10-pack and Steve responded as follows (dated April 17): ``I will answer the question on warrenty in due course. For now, assume a policy like we had on GTA01. 14 days for DOA. I'm working at coming up with a more comprehensive policy. But Until then we will default to the last known value.'' I'm hoping that we can now get a more comprehensive policy than 14-day DOA. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: warranty
10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: warranty
Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Sounds pretty final to me. 14 day DOA on individual units. 28 day DOA on 10-pack purchases. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Realized that looked confrontational. :) I should have phrased it There didn't seem to be any indicaiton that this would or has changed, do you have reason to doubt that this policy is the official one? -Kevin On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds pretty final to me. 14 day DOA on individual units. 28 day DOA on 10-pack purchases. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
*sniff* you hurt my feelings :( :) Not so long ago steve mentioned that 14 day doa was what the gta01 had and until he knew more that was to be expected. (not his words but I don't have the mail now) On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Kevin Dean wrote: Realized that looked confrontational. :) I should have phrased it There didn't seem to be any indicaiton that this would or has changed, do you have reason to doubt that this policy is the official one? -Kevin On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds pretty final to me. 14 day DOA on individual units. 28 day DOA on 10-pack purchases. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the final word on warranties or are you still trying to work that out? On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:41 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: warranty Steve/Michael, Sorry to be a bother, but could you update us on the U.S. warranty situation for the FR? I understand that there is a 14-day DOA warranty. Is that it? Or will we getting a 1-year or some such? Please let us know if there will be a difference in warranty between the 10 pack and individual unit purchases. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. If that's the only warranty, I'm worried. Is there any reseller or other option in the U.S. that will give us a longer warranty? Spending $369 on a unit with such a short warranty is scary. I would like to know how others in the U.S. think about this. Is this a non-issue? Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
I'm in Canada and worried about the same thing which is why I asked initially. On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ajit Natarajan wrote: steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. If that's the only warranty, I'm worried. Is there any reseller or other option in the U.S. that will give us a longer warranty? Spending $369 on a unit with such a short warranty is scary. I would like to know how others in the U.S. think about this. Is this a non-issue? Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
in Germany (or the whole EU) every reseller has to give a warranty for private customers from 2 years. i can't imagine that any reseller will sell only one unit if there is no longer warranty option. Ajit Natarajan schrieb: steve wrote: 10 pack is a 28 day DOA. If that's the only warranty, I'm worried. Is there any reseller or other option in the U.S. that will give us a longer warranty? Spending $369 on a unit with such a short warranty is scary. I would like to know how others in the U.S. think about this. Is this a non-issue? Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Arne Zachlod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in Germany (or the whole EU) every reseller has to give a warranty for private customers from 2 years. i can't imagine that any reseller will sell only one unit if there is no longer warranty option. That's why I think resellers in Europe outnumber resellers in other areas. By using retailers, Openmoko doesn't have to inflate the cost to the rest of the world. That way, only the people in the EU have to bear the extra costs that such warranties incur. This is just my speculation, of course. the great thing about the free market is that if people want longer warranties, they're free to purchase from a reseller who provides that. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases
Shawn wrote: Are there retailers in the US like this? Are they offering 10 packs the same as OM (with the same price and all of the goodies)? I had asked a question a while back about the warranty of individual units in a 10-pack and Steve responded as follows (dated April 17): ``I will answer the question on warrenty in due course. For now, assume a policy like we had on GTA01. 14 days for DOA. I'm working at coming up with a more comprehensive policy. But Until then we will default to the last known value.'' I'm hoping that we can now get a more comprehensive policy than 14-day DOA. Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases
On 2008-06-20 23:06:13 -0600, Vinc Duran wrote: And is the warranty really only 28 days as in this faq? http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/faq-frequently-asked-questions/ Good catch. If that's true it's a good argument for ordering from Pulster or some other distributor in the EU. They have to give you 2 years of warranty. hp -- _ | Peter J. Holzer| Openmoko has already embedded |_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | voting system. | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Named If you want it -- write it __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ilja O. on community@lists.openmoko.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases
Are there retailers in the US like this? Are they offering 10 packs the same as OM (with the same price and all of the goodies)? thx. . . shawn - Original Message From: Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:55:00 AM Subject: Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases On 2008-06-20 23:06:13 -0600, Vinc Duran wrote: And is the warranty really only 28 days as in this faq? http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/faq-frequently-asked-questions/ Good catch. If that's true it's a good argument for ordering from Pulster or some other distributor in the EU. They have to give you 2 years of warranty. hp -- _ | Peter J. Holzer| Openmoko has already embedded |_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | voting system. | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Named If you want it -- write it __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ilja O. on community@lists.openmoko.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty for 10 pack purchases
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've seen this question come up a couple of times on the list, but it's not been answered fully: if we buy a 10-pack of freerunners, i assume they will come with a warranty. how do we as individuals deal with warranty returns? will there be 10 receipts in the box, or one? having one makes things very difficult - it means whoever has the receipt then has to pass it on to anyone who has a problem with their phone. and i'm sure the organiser of each group purchase doesn't want to be held liable just because his name's on the delivery slip or will openmoko keep a record of serial numbers and purchase dates, so receipts aren't necessary to confirm when they were bought? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community And is the warranty really only 28 days as in this faq? http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/faq-frequently-asked-questions/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Yes your phone has an identifying number. So every phone will be covered, regardless of how you buy it. We will cover DOA for 14 days on single phones and 28 days on phones shipped in 10 packs. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:07 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones Openmoko, A lot of people on the Group Order forum are asking about the warranty protection of individual buyers when we consolidate our orders. Is openmoko able to provide a solution where buyers may take advantage of the bulk discount and reduced shipping costs through Group Order and at the same time each individual enjoys an independent Warranty direct with Openmoko? -- - Eric Smith Sean Moss-Pultz said: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Openmoko, A lot of people on the Group Order forum are asking about the warranty protection of individual buyers when we consolidate our orders. Is openmoko able to provide a solution where buyers may take advantage of the bulk discount and reduced shipping costs through Group Order and at the same time each individual enjoys an independent Warranty direct with Openmoko? -- - Eric Smith Sean Moss-Pultz said: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
What are the warrenty? Alexander Frøyseth Ian Stirling skrev: Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hi Steve, If a group joins together to purchase the 10-pack, how will the warranty work? I presume that each unit is individually warranted. I'm sure that warranty service will require a purchase receipt or some other proof of purchase. What receipt would we use? If we have to register, we would need to specify where we purchased the phone. What should we say? And perhaps now would be a point to mention what the warranty on the devices will be normally, it's not a point that's come up as far as I'm aware. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Alexander Frøyseth ha scritto: What are the warrenty? I figure that in Europe, if you buy regulary from a seller, it will be included in the extra-price you'll have to pay here (that includes VAT, battery recycling, warranty and more...). -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: warranty
Ajit Natarajan wrote: Hi Steve, If a group joins together to purchase the 10-pack, how will the warranty work? I presume that each unit is individually warranted. I'm sure that warranty service will require a purchase receipt or some other proof of purchase. What receipt would we use? If we have to register, we would need to specify where we purchased the phone. What should we say? And perhaps now would be a point to mention what the warranty on the devices will be normally, it's not a point that's come up as far as I'm aware. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
On 2/20/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. Which in EU will translate to 2 years if sold in EU (as per EU legislation). /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Ole Tange schrieb: On 2/20/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. Which in EU will translate to 2 years if sold in EU (as per EU legislation). Well, in fact the warranty is not touched by EU legislation. It is more a liability that is 24 months. But that is nearly worthless since after 6 months the customer has to proove that the failure is due to a manufacturing fault, which is near to impossible for an end customer :( This cries for debate and renders those 24 months useless - you can only count on 6 months without hassle. Warranty is an optional liability that a manufacturer may offer to you and is not covered by any legislation. Any limiting terms the manufacturer or dealer adds here will have effect (like having to send in the device for repair on your cost e.g.). But it is very good to hear that FIC is thinking about 1 year warranty! /Ole Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
* Ole Tange [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070220 14:52]: On 2/20/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. Which in EU will translate to 2 years if sold in EU (as per EU legislation). Or as a sarcastic to 6 months (where the seller has to prove the defect was not there when the item was sold). After 6 months, the buyer needs to prove that the defect has been already there when the item was sold. Actually, that's only the implied warranty (Gewährleistung in German), while FIC is free to grant an express warranty (Garantie) of one year if they like. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Would this warranty cover accidental breakage of the large screen, say by leaning on it against a desk or something? I find it unlikely but it would really put minds at ease when spending a small fortune on a phone; plus it might be that extra incentive to lure even more to this phone... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
* el jefe delito [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070220 17:20]: Would this warranty cover accidental breakage of the large screen, say by leaning on it against a desk or something? I fear not. It's the one most probable way to kill the phone, and probably the most expensive part to replace. (E.g. experiences with laptops show, that a dead display is practically never repaired.) I find it unlikely but it would really put minds at ease when spending a small fortune on a phone; plus it might be that extra incentive to lure even more to this phone... Yeah, but that would be a thing for a mobile insurrance, not for the product proper. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 10:08 -0600, el jefe delito wrote: Would this warranty cover accidental breakage of the large screen, say by leaning on it against a desk or something? hehe...sorry man. Couldn't help you here ;-) I find it unlikely but it would really put minds at ease when spending a small fortune on a phone; plus it might be that extra incentive to lure even more to this phone... Are you asking for some kind of cover everything I can do to this device warranty? If yes how about we sell you one for US$350? -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Are you asking for some kind of cover everything I can do to this device warranty? If yes how about we sell you one for US$350? If it has unlimited replacements for a year, maybe! ;) lol ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
Andreas Kostyrka writes: (E.g. experiences with laptops show, that a dead display is practically never repaired.) That's because the price of spare parts is normally jacked so high that companies often make more money on replacement parts than on the initial product's sale. I find it unlikely but it would really put minds at ease when spending a small fortune on a phone; plus it might be that extra incentive to lure even more to this phone... Yeah, but that would be a thing for a mobile insurrance, not for the product proper. FIC could adopt a don't be evil slogan and promise to sell the replacement LCD for normal markup. That would go a long way towards making folks happy with their purchase decision (even if they never need any spare parts). -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones
On 2/20/07, Pranav Desai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/20/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ? Of course we'll have a warranty ;-) I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something standard like 1 year. Thanks Sean! I assume that the warranty will be void if we open up the phone ? :-) Pranav, I hope you're so kidding... it'd be pretty bad that they published instructions on how to pull the plastics then ding you when you do! but yeah, you bring up a really good point, I'd understand if soldering iron = no warranty though Sean, hope it's not too much to ask for you to relay terms? have the legal guys even gone over this yet? --Jeff -- Pranav -Sean -- -- http://pd.dnsalias.org ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community