Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Clemens Kirchgatterer]

Ken Restivo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It seems to me from my former-product-mananger perspective that
> OpenMoko doesn't really want to be in the software business. 

why would they do ASU/FSO then? i don't buy this.
 
> I'm sensing a business model that has OpenMoko focussing on selling
> general-purpose computing hardware (like Dell or ASUS). but in a
> handheld format, and letting the "community" or some third party
> (like Trolltech/Nokia) deal with the software issues, for the most
> part. 

if that was true, they would just throw some money at trolltech/nokia
and ship qtopia, not needing to bother with anything else. for sure
would be much cheaper (at least i think).

best regards ...
clemens

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[papa-piet]

> It seems to me from my former-product-mananger perspective that OpenMoko 
> doesn't really want to be in the software business. 
> 
> I'm sensing a business model that has OpenMoko focussing on selling 
> general-purpose computing hardware (like Dell or ASUS). but in a handheld 
> format, and letting the "community" or some third party (like 
> Trolltech/Nokia) deal with the software issues, for the most part. 
> 
> Obviously they need to ship the phone with *something*, so they're betting on 
> Qtopia-over-X11, which seems a solidly good choice.
> 
> The one very big problem with this model, is that Dell and ASUS have very 
> mature, end-user-ready software suites (Ubuntu, Windoze, etc.) to ship with 
> their hardware or for users to add on their own, and the OpenMoko doesn't 
> really have that yet.
> 
> This will get sorted out though. I'd bet on about two years from now it'll 
> all be squared away.
> 
> -ken
> 
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Hey Ken, Hey Community,

this is also my interpretation, Openmoko is trying only to to open up a
building site, *WE* have to build our houses and factories, anybody
expecting more than infrastructure is still bound to products before NEO
and before Openmoko.

freeyourphone.de

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Ken Restivo]

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:31:55PM +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> > Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have  
> > our
> > own ways of understanding and making meanings.
> > You are free to create your own meanings.
> 
> 
> I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste  
> dilettante waffling about "not having a design because its up to the  
> open community" is going to drive things forward.  Are you, or are you  
> not, committed to delivering a working phone platform that *users* and  
> developers alike are going to be interested in?  Then: some standards  
> need to be put forth, and they need to be adhered to.
> 


It seems to me from my former-product-mananger perspective that OpenMoko 
doesn't really want to be in the software business. 

I'm sensing a business model that has OpenMoko focussing on selling 
general-purpose computing hardware (like Dell or ASUS). but in a handheld 
format, and letting the "community" or some third party (like Trolltech/Nokia) 
deal with the software issues, for the most part. 

Obviously they need to ship the phone with *something*, so they're betting on 
Qtopia-over-X11, which seems a solidly good choice.

The one very big problem with this model, is that Dell and ASUS have very 
mature, end-user-ready software suites (Ubuntu, Windoze, etc.) to ship with 
their hardware or for users to add on their own, and the OpenMoko doesn't 
really have that yet.

This will get sorted out though. I'd bet on about two years from now it'll all 
be squared away.

-ken

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> About Jay, I apologize if I attached personally it, but he was  
> attaching
> a lot of person of this ML, and it was not too much nice.
>

I don't believe I attacked any one person specifically, personally,  
but okay .. lets move on.  There is code to be written and new things  
to be talked about.  All griping aside, it sure is fun to have a nice  
open pocket platform to code for, as stormy as this one is ..


> Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or  
> experimenting).
>

Indeed!  Moving on ..

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

>   you seem very passionate about your concerns. If you are going to  
> linux
> world I'd be happy to meet and discuss things.
>   Or if you can make a list of specific problems I can try to  
> explain or
> address your concerns.


[reply off-list]

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Michele Renda]

On Wednesday 30 July 2008 04:37:20 Christopher White wrote:

Hi Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry.

> My frustration comes off as anger because I just can't seem to figure
> out where to go at times.  I know I signed up for a tough road, and I am
> not afraid to rollup my sleeves and strace a process to see why it's
> hung.
>
> But it's **sloooww** to come up to speed.  It's practically a vertical
> learning curve.

This is the hard work of pioneers :) Usually are them that take all 
disadvantage of a new technology and took the "arrow" by Indians. But our 
experience is very important and will help the persons will come after us.

You work, and your experience are really important for Openmoko.

In this moment I am thinking to the very early adopter of Neo 1973

> I'm sharing this with the folks at OpenMoko because *they* have the most
> experience with this device, if anything because it's been in their
> hands for a *lot* longer.  Their wisdom is golden.  Right now, it comes
> out in bits and pieces on the wiki and in email.  Finding the answers is
> tough.
>
> Please don't take this as severe criticism.  Instead understand that I'd
> like to try and influence the immediate direction of the folks at
> OpenMoko to work on helping the masses of developers like me and Jay and
> others that want to dive in, but we're severely hindered by the current
> state, which may require pulling people of projects temporarily.  It's
> like sacrificing a little time on ASU goals to get the rest of us up to
> speed.  In the long run, that will be a much bigger pay off.
>

I understand that you did it in a constructive way, and this is nice. The 
problem is that when the critics become too much as in these days, in place to 
take the effect to put the OM developer "to give the max" put the developer to 
felt criticized in every side, and I think you get the opposite effect.

Remember they are only persons.

> Forgive me...which is the GTK version?  Are you speaking of FSO, or
> 2007.2, or some new version?  It sounds very appealing.

I am speaking 2007.2. but with all these names :)

> I have tried very hard to voice my complaint along *with* a suggestion.
> I held my tongue for a while on this topic because I don't want to be
> "yet another whiner".  But there often a grain of wisdom to the masses,
> thus I felt it necessary to validate some of the complaints of others.
>

I thinks that complaints are enough validated for now. There are some problem 
and I hope them will be fixed fast.

>
> I am very excited about itjust ready to kick off the mud already ;-)

... and I read also about Ubuntu ARM  

>
> Thank you Michele, forgive me if I sounded harsh.  I am a satisfied, if
> temporarily frustrated, customer.

I think you wrote in a constructive way, so it is important.
May be one time, when we will have our GTA99 we will read these email and we 
will smile about it :)

Regards
Michele Renda

> ...cj
>
>
>
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On 7/29/08 Stroller wrote:
> Initially I was  
> really angry about the whole removal-of-the-keyboard-button-by- 
> shadowy-designers thing, and I've come to realise it's irrelevant and 
>  
> that I was stupid to get upset about it.

Please don't think it's irrelevant. It's anything but. This is the 
essence of what we're making. An empy vessel for you to personalize.

We make something simple but powerful. Removing and adding meaning.

   -Sean

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Christopher White]

Hi Michele,

> Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry.

Forgive me if I came across as very angry.  I actually am not.  I am
frustrated, but I do not find fault with anyone in this regard.

> Like you I sent my 350 Eur postcard (= 2 month of my house rent) for a
> phone that I was knowing was not software complete (and some possible
> hardware bug).
> 
> OM wrote very well on the homepage that is not a end user product. They
> wrote very well. I bought my phone knowing that it will show me "things
> we human can't neither to image (and not in the good sense)"

You are absolutely correct.  I fully understood what I was getting into,
as I think most people on this list did.  By no means did I expect an
end user product.

> Then now we can choose: we can use the 2007 gtk version or the new
> version. Is our freedom. Why we must to be in angry if we have the choose?

You are correct that it was my choice to join the club.  Let me expand
on my frustration.  I think it is first and foremost a matter of clear
channels of communication.

My frustration comes off as anger because I just can't seem to figure
out where to go at times.  I know I signed up for a tough road, and I am
not afraid to rollup my sleeves and strace a process to see why it's
hung.  

But it's **sloooww** to come up to speed.  It's practically a vertical
learning curve.

I'm sharing this with the folks at OpenMoko because *they* have the most
experience with this device, if anything because it's been in their
hands for a *lot* longer.  Their wisdom is golden.  Right now, it comes
out in bits and pieces on the wiki and in email.  Finding the answers is
tough.  

Please don't take this as severe criticism.  Instead understand that I'd
like to try and influence the immediate direction of the folks at
OpenMoko to work on helping the masses of developers like me and Jay and
others that want to dive in, but we're severely hindered by the current
state, which may require pulling people of projects temporarily.  It's
like sacrificing a little time on ASU goals to get the rest of us up to
speed.  In the long run, that will be a much bigger pay off.

> Openmoko never said that will do that will make impossible to install
> the gtk version. If you use it, and you maintain it, it will become
> better and will take the place of ASU.

Forgive me...which is the GTK version?  Are you speaking of FSO, or
2007.2, or some new version?  It sounds very appealing.

> But please, is not the situation to complain if you install the aplha
> version and it is not running stable.

I have tried very hard to voice my complaint along *with* a suggestion.
I held my tongue for a while on this topic because I don't want to be
"yet another whiner".  But there often a grain of wisdom to the masses,
thus I felt it necessary to validate some of the complaints of others.

> You must to take Openmoko as a piece of "free" hardware. Install then
> what you want, and be happy.

I am very excited about itjust ready to kick off the mud already ;-)

> Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or experimenting).

Thank you Michele, forgive me if I sounded harsh.  I am a satisfied, if
temporarily frustrated, customer.

...cj



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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Michele Renda]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Cristopher, let me to understand why you are so in angry.

Like you I sent my 350 Eur postcard (= 2 month of my house rent) for a
phone that I was knowing was not software complete (and some possible
hardware bug).

OM wrote very well on the homepage that is not a end user product. They
wrote very well. I bought my phone knowing that it will show me "things
we human can't neither to image (and not in the good sense)"

I think we was knowing very well what it mean.

Then OM give it the possibility to follow from the alpha version the
next software framework. It is like the first version of KDE4: all was
knowing that was a realy big revolution, and it need time.

Then now we can choose: we can use the 2007 gtk version or the new
version. Is our freedom. Why we must to be in angry if we have the choose?

Some people worked and bring us the possibility to install Debian + XFCE
(I was not beliving to my eyes). If you want the GTK version use and
maintain it.

Openmoko never said that will do that will make impossible to install
the gtk version. If you use it, and you maintain it, it will become
better and will take the place of ASU.

But please, is not the situation to complain if you install the aplha
version and it is not running stable.


You must to take Openmoko as a piece of "free" hardware. Install then
what you want, and be happy.

About Jay, I apologize if I attached personally it, but he was attaching
a lot of person of this ML, and it was not too much nice.

Now I wish you a very nice day, and happy programming ( or experimenting).


PS. If you want to enjoy with programming, try to see something about
python and pygtk. It gave me some satisfactions with only a few of hours
of work. May be it can be surprice you.

Regards
Michele Renda

Christopher White wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:02 +0200, Michele Renda wrote:
>> I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h)
> 
> I'll agree that responding as Jay has takes considerable time, but I
> disagree with what a person can do.
> 
>> In 3-4 hours a person can do:
>>
>>  To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner
>>  (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you
>>   have experience in programming)
> 
> I've been poking at FR for probably a good 20hrs now.  Flash,
> reflashing, playing, poking, looking for logs, looking for hooks. 
> 
> And I still haven't started programming yet (yes, i have embedded linux
> experience).
> 
> I spent an hour *just* trying to figure out why exposure was not
> starting up.  In the end, I could not and just gave up.
> 
>>  To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information
> 
> Ok, that assumes I have something to contribute.  After 20 hrs on my FR,
> and countless hours over the last year reading the list, I do not feel
> very confident in *any* of my methods yet to start sharing them with
> others.  
> 
>>  Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko
> 
> Yikes, I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to do that.
> 
>>  Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be
>> happy that someone is thinking to them
> 
> Well...that's some blue sky thinking for you!  Tell you what I did do,
> though...I sent them a virtual postcard with $369 attached ;-)
> 
> I vent now because I'm frustrated.  My wheels are spinning in the mud.
> I have some great ideas but and can't seem to get traction in the
> product.  That's why you hear so much on this topic.  Jay already has 3
> projects *underway* -- he has clearly invested a lot more time
> implementing for the phone than he has emailing about it.
> 
> This is the 3rd time I've started a message on this thread.  It always
> gets to the point where I want to make concrete suggestions on how to
> improve.  That's where it gets messy.  I'm too lost in finding the right
> set of magic commands to fix the problem of the day to figure out what
> would make it better...
> 
> More than anything, my suggestion to the OpenMoko team -- get things
> *stable*.  Stop all new development until you get it stable.  The build
> process, basic menuing, core documentation.  I still have the window
> manager crash on me periodically ...stuck with a brick until I can ssh
> in and restart X.
> 
> Until it gets stable, adding more features or more apps is just adding
> fuel to the fire.
> 
> ...cj
> 
> 
>> I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing
>> that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things
>> Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best
>> way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better!
>>
>> All this in my personal opinion!
>>
>> Michele Renda
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi
>>

RE: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[steve]

Jay,

   you seem very passionate about your concerns. If you are going to linux
world I'd be happy to meet and discuss things.
   Or if you can make a list of specific problems I can try to explain or
address your concerns. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Vaughan
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:53 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

> I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally 
> thing that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid 
> things Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not 
> the best way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is 
> better!
>


I don't think rabid fanboix'ism is going to help the situation.  There
*are* negatives to whats going on with OpenMoko; perhaps you don't see them
because you haven't been attempting to write applications for the platform,
as I have for a year now.

Certainly, unless there is pressure to address the faults in current
strategy which are making it /so/ /very/ /hard/ for 3rd-party developers to
ramp up to productivity in promoting, and using, the OpenMoko platform, then
it won't happen.  OpenMoko *need* to know that there is dissatisfaction in
the ranks with the way they are dealing with these issues - I'm only one of
about 15 people who have shared the same views as me, and I'm vocal about it
because *I care*; sycophants and dilettantes are not going to make it easy
for them to see they are turning developers away, and making it difficult to
get behind the platform in a big way.

I do believe we can build a great product with OpenMoko.  I just want to
make sure that the OM community realises that there are issues at hand which
*must* be addressed if we want to make it as big as we all desire.
Certainly the current fractious nature of the distribution,  
the feature regression and creeping bugs are not making it easier.   
Something must change.

> All this in my personal opinion!
>


Thanks for sharing it in a manner we are all entitled, since this is an Open
project.  And thank you to all those people who have shared their opinions
with me privately.  If any of you wish to continue to voice an opinion about
"Jay Vaughan" and how much time he is wasting, please feel free to do so -
privately, off-list.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Christopher White]

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:02 +0200, Michele Renda wrote:
> I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h)

I'll agree that responding as Jay has takes considerable time, but I
disagree with what a person can do.

> In 3-4 hours a person can do:
> 
>   To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner
>   (To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you
>have experience in programming)

I've been poking at FR for probably a good 20hrs now.  Flash,
reflashing, playing, poking, looking for logs, looking for hooks. 

And I still haven't started programming yet (yes, i have embedded linux
experience).

I spent an hour *just* trying to figure out why exposure was not
starting up.  In the end, I could not and just gave up.

>   To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information

Ok, that assumes I have something to contribute.  After 20 hrs on my FR,
and countless hours over the last year reading the list, I do not feel
very confident in *any* of my methods yet to start sharing them with
others.  

>   Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko

Yikes, I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to do that.

>   Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be
> happy that someone is thinking to them

Well...that's some blue sky thinking for you!  Tell you what I did do,
though...I sent them a virtual postcard with $369 attached ;-)

I vent now because I'm frustrated.  My wheels are spinning in the mud.
I have some great ideas but and can't seem to get traction in the
product.  That's why you hear so much on this topic.  Jay already has 3
projects *underway* -- he has clearly invested a lot more time
implementing for the phone than he has emailing about it.

This is the 3rd time I've started a message on this thread.  It always
gets to the point where I want to make concrete suggestions on how to
improve.  That's where it gets messy.  I'm too lost in finding the right
set of magic commands to fix the problem of the day to figure out what
would make it better...

More than anything, my suggestion to the OpenMoko team -- get things
*stable*.  Stop all new development until you get it stable.  The build
process, basic menuing, core documentation.  I still have the window
manager crash on me periodically ...stuck with a brick until I can ssh
in and restart X.

Until it gets stable, adding more features or more apps is just adding
fuel to the fire.

...cj


> 
> I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing
> that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things
> Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best
> way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better!
> 
> All this in my personal opinion!
> 
> Michele Renda
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi
> wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU
> =kWjH
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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RE: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[steve]

Hehe.

  Michele your comment made my day and I read hundreds of emails per day 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Renda
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:03 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jay Vaughan wrote:
> I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it 
> means there is hope yet ..

Usually I am not too much disposed to moderation in a ML, but now I am
started to think:

In these two days you wrote around 15 email (it is only stimated). Every
email was enought long, to explain why Openmoko suck.

I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h)

In 3-4 hours a person can do:

To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner
(To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you
 have experience in programming)

To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information

Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko

Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be
happy that someone is thinking to them


I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing that
continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things Openmoko do,
and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best way to help this
project. Then do you what do you think is better!

All this in my personal opinion!

Michele Renda
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkiPIvYACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3eogCfUX7G2mvUJmcg6KH4KOLMWkzi
wGoAnRjT9zbvrCXFFEf/q6I7aeRn8qeU
=kWjH
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally  
> thing
> that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things
> Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the  
> best
> way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better!
>


I don't think rabid fanboix'ism is going to help the situation.  There  
*are* negatives to whats going on with OpenMoko; perhaps you don't see  
them because you haven't been attempting to write applications for the  
platform, as I have for a year now.

Certainly, unless there is pressure to address the faults in current  
strategy which are making it /so/ /very/ /hard/ for 3rd-party  
developers to ramp up to productivity in promoting, and using, the  
OpenMoko platform, then it won't happen.  OpenMoko *need* to know that  
there is dissatisfaction in the ranks with the way they are dealing  
with these issues - I'm only one of about 15 people who have shared  
the same views as me, and I'm vocal about it because *I care*;  
sycophants and dilettantes are not going to make it easy for them to  
see they are turning developers away, and making it difficult to get  
behind the platform in a big way.

I do believe we can build a great product with OpenMoko.  I just want  
to make sure that the OM community realises that there are issues at  
hand which *must* be addressed if we want to make it as big as we all  
desire.  Certainly the current fractious nature of the distribution,  
the feature regression and creeping bugs are not making it easier.   
Something must change.

> All this in my personal opinion!
>


Thanks for sharing it in a manner we are all entitled, since this is  
an Open project.  And thank you to all those people who have shared  
their opinions with me privately.  If any of you wish to continue to  
voice an opinion about "Jay Vaughan" and how much time he is wasting,  
please feel free to do so - privately, off-list.

;
--
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Michele Renda]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jay Vaughan wrote:
> I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it  
> means there is hope yet ..

Usually I am not too much disposed to moderation in a ML, but now I am
started to think:

In these two days you wrote around 15 email (it is only stimated). Every
email was enought long, to explain why Openmoko suck.

I think this require some hours hour man-time (let suppose 3-4 h)

In 3-4 hours a person can do:

To learn a bit how to write an little application for Freerunner
(To start you need around 2-3 hour of intensive study, if you
 have experience in programming)

To check 10 pages of the Wiki updating old information

Start to know of to make a theme for Openmoko

Go out buy a postcard and to send it to Openmoko team that will be
happy that someone is thinking to them


I am no one to tell to you how to use your time, but I personally thing
that continuing to use your time to repeat how many stupid things
Openmoko do, and complaining how many fanboy there are, is not the best
way to help this project. Then do you what do you think is better!

All this in my personal opinion!

Michele Renda
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

>> This does not work.  That is all.
> As Sean already said. You are only speaking for yourself.
>

I am not alone in my view.

> I am glad that OpenMoko is not just another half-open half-closed  
> effort
> that once thought: "Oh look Linux. It doesn't cost a dime. Let's make
> something that is flashy and blinks and develop it as proprietary as  
> we
> always did."


I'm glad OpenMoko has as many rabid fanboix as other projects, it  
means there is hope yet ..

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Scott]

I have to agree with Kalle & Jay,

While i part of me would like to see a nailed down platform with a clear 
 definition of tools, UI standards, platform support, documentation 
standards(one I've been yelling about recently) I also understand OM's 
struggle to produce a viable open source product in record time.


I hope we can all agree to disagree and take the constructive criticism 
for what it is, constructive


I am heartened by Sean's statement  about OM's mission and their 
determination to "get it right".


I'm also happy to see this open discussion among knowledgeable people 
who are in the trenches and "getting it done".


Rock on Neo!

Scott

Kalle Happonen wrote:

Nkoli wrote:
Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an 
unpleasant atmosphere
Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying 
Kalle




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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Robert Schuster]

Hi,

Jay Vaughan schrieb:
> [snip]
> 
> This does not work.  That is all.
As Sean already said. You are only speaking for yourself.

I am glad that OpenMoko is not just another half-open half-closed effort
 that once thought: "Oh look Linux. It doesn't cost a dime. Let's make
something that is flashy and blinks and develop it as proprietary as we
always did."

Regards
Robert



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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[arne anka]

> If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one yourself?
> If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility
> of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it
> all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and start
> doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's
> responsibility.

sorry, but that's imho part of the responsibility of om -- if i don't liek  
i don't need to use it but why should i (and everyone else) invent taht  
kind of stuff?
distributors like debian/suse/redhat/... even gentoo create distributions  
so you don't need to worry about all that tedious stuff like installing,  
updating, uninstalling, keeping track of files, creating config files and  
so on.
most users of linux do not use it because the want to create their system  
 from scratch -- the are happy that someone organizes things that need to  
be taken care of and the adjust or modify where needed.

basically the same thing is it i was expecting from om.
i was hoping that these decisions  where made already and i had not to  
care about them -- i am, like probably the most of us, rather  
application-oriented, and i want to focus on managing existing  
applications and -- hopefully in a near future -- developing my own, using  
firm foundations.

those foundations do in no way harm the freedom to create a completely  
different kind of managing the freerunner, like the pure existence of  
debian or slackware didn't hinder the creation and growing up of mandrake,  
suse or redhat.
but the _user_ had a distribution to work with.

i read seans mail rather as a polite way to say "we're pissed off by all  
this criticism".
well, as a ceo of om he can't be that frank as jay or marcus bauer from  
tangogps, but certainly he has a point here.
otoh the hair raising issue of the root login or the thread regarding the  
keyboard toggle of asu prove that those being critical have valid points,  
too.

after all, we're now (imo) at the usual point with projects being so  
overeloaded with ideas and imagination:
people see the realy thing and realize that a lot of high hopes are far  
 from reality -- adapting to these new facts is a lengthy process with a  
lot of criticism until the vision and reality match.
i can fully understand that people like jay, knowing the neo1973 and  
hoping for the fr to fix a lot of shortcomings, _are_ annoyed, in  
particular when they get the impression that everything they say dies away  
unheard.

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

>> Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an
>> unpleasant atmosphere
> Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying
> where he's trying to come from.

Thank you Kalle .. no, I'm not trolling, yes I am voicing a strong  
opinion, yes I do think the Freerunner is a cool device to hack on, no  
I don't have any plans to abandon my work, yes I would like it if  
there was a little more spirited organization towards delivering a  
*finished* system that targets users and which developers can stably  
approach.

> I'm not saying that everybody should
> immideately agree with him, but this is one of the main points of  
> having
> an open community. There NEEDS to be open criticism and discussion,  
> it's
> not like there's only one truth.

Indeed.  Keep in mind people, the Freerunner is not the only open- 
hardware project out there (Pandora, I've got my eyes on you, baby),  
its just one that has a lot of hype going for it because of the  
general interest (Apple) towards beefier cell phone computing .. how  
many times have I looked at iPhone with hungry eyes, goodness ..

> Trying to silence and belittle people
> who see differently is exactly what should be avoided. Trolling is one
> thing, but I think Linus is a great example. Having strong oppinions  
> and
> stating them can be good, even if I don't always agree, but they're
> never at least unfounded.


Linus is a champion.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one  
> yourself?

Because there is one already, he just doesn't have any power to make  
smart design decisions because of some new-age hippy-dippy faff.

> If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility
> of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it
> all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and  
> start
> doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's
> responsibility.


I am: building apps (a game, a time tool, a music system), and:  
working on developer tutorials to help my fellows also build apps they  
are interested in.  Stay tuned.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an  
> unpleasant atmosphere. Last I checked, no one put a gun to your head  
> and forced you to buy or design for the FR. If you're tired of  
> waiting for the device to become stable, sell the phone and check  
> back again in about a year.
>

What part of 'open' don't you get?  Its open.  I can criticise if I  
think its necessary.

> So once again, if you believe your time and money has been wasted on  
> the project, cut your losses now and go. Develop for another device  
> until the neo becomes more palatable to your tastes.

I'm hacking on Freerunner daily.  Its my chosen platform.  When I  
criticise the strategy and the approach being made to establish a  
platform, its because I intend to stick with it.  Wouldn't make sense  
otherwise.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> I think my first project will be called MokoBingo! (with the
> exclamation mark!)! It will check the mailing list on a regular basis
> and the Freerunner will make a squeaky noise when any of the
> following terms are encountered:


heh heh .. please do this! :)


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Kalle Happonen]

Nkoli wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
>
> Having worked in Open-Hardware for over 15 years now, I was, in fact,
> expecting a much more coherent strategy for the software platform on
> Freerunner than just "let the community decide".  Certainly, the
> community aspect of this project is huge; I am not saying that it is
> not valuable to have such great public influence on the design; just
> that: there *has* to be a rigid design approach to guide development,
> or else we end up with a torn map navigating fork-city.
>
>
> Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an 
> unpleasant atmosphere
Actually I disagree a bit here. Jay is not trolling but just saying 
where he's trying to come from. I'm not saying that everybody should 
immideately agree with him, but this is one of the main points of having 
an open community. There NEEDS to be open criticism and discussion, it's 
not like there's only one truth.  Trying to silence and belittle people 
who see differently is exactly what should be avoided. Trolling is one 
thing, but I think Linus is a great example. Having strong oppinions and 
stating them can be good, even if I don't always agree, but they're 
never at least unfounded.

Kalle

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Yogiz]

> blab blab blab
>
> Jay Vaughan

If you need a benevolent dictator to lead, why not become one yourself?
If you need standards why not make them? This is not a responsibility
of the Openmoko team. They already gave us the damn thing to build it
all on. This really is the job of the community. Stop whining and start
doing the job yourself if you want it done. It's no one else's
responsibility.

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Nkoli]

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Having worked in Open-Hardware for over 15 years now, I was, in fact,
> expecting a much more coherent strategy for the software platform on
> Freerunner than just "let the community decide".  Certainly, the
> community aspect of this project is huge; I am not saying that it is
> not valuable to have such great public influence on the design; just
> that: there *has* to be a rigid design approach to guide development,
> or else we end up with a torn map navigating fork-city.
>
>
Jay, your negative posts on this ML do nothing but foster an unpleasant
atmosphere. Last I checked, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to
buy or design for the FR. If you're tired of waiting for the device to
become stable, sell the phone and check back again in about a year.

You're complaining that a phone 2 years in the making is still imperfect.
How long did it take the newcomer Apple to complete the iphone? Iirc, they
spent 4 years on iphone v1.0 and the device still needs a lot of work.

It's easy to say 'come up with a plan and follow it through come rain or
shine' when you're a bystander. The OM team had a solid plan when the
project started. Maybe they had loftier goals than what they could
accomplish being amateurs, maybe they should have hired someone with
experience in embedded devices from the beginning, maybe they should have
licensed qtopia, maybe they should have done a lot of other things, but you
have to make mistakes in order to learn.

I think it's more to their credit that the plan has gone through several
changes because they learn what is possible and what isn't as they go. I'm
sure if they knew then what they know now, they would have made different
decisions, but then, hindsight is 20/20. I'd like to think they are a more
coordinated unit than they were 2 years ago.

So once again, if you believe your time and money has been wasted on the
project, cut your losses now and go. Develop for another device until the
neo becomes more palatable to your tastes.
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Stroller]

On 28 Jul 2008, at 21:31, Jay Vaughan wrote:

>> Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have
>> our
>> own ways of understanding and making meanings.
>> You are free to create your own meanings.
>
> I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste
> dilettante waffling about "not having a design because its up to the
> open community" is going to drive things forward.


I read Sean's message quite differently to the way you did, apparently.

I read it as "we do have a design for ASU" and presumably when he  
said "we're not taking votes on piddly little implementation details"  
this is because FIC just want to get on with things and as quickly as  
possible and get ASU to the sate where it's the reference-platform  
(with the nice-looking GUI) that you desire.

Having said that, I had to read the message more than once to arrive  
at these conclusions. From Sean's message & Will's [1] it seems to me  
like people at Openmoko sometimes speak a different language from the  
rest of us, a language with over a thousand words for "blue sky".

I don't want to sound negative (again!) because over the weekend I've  
had a bit of a revelation about Openmoko, and I'm feeling much more  
positive than I was a couple of days ago. I've just spent quite a bit  
of time trying to express that in a reply to "Openmoko on Design"  
that I sent privately to Sean; I've asked him if I can post that to  
the list, but I don't want want to publicly post "my interpretation"  
of Openmoko if he thinks that mischaracterises them. Initially I was  
really angry about the whole removal-of-the-keyboard-button-by- 
shadowy-designers thing, and I've come to realise it's irrelevant and  
that I was stupid to get upset about it.

Nevertheless, the problem with the explanations made by Sean & Will  
is that one shouldn't have to "interpret" statements of official  
policy at all. We shouldn't be "free to create your own meanings"  
from your explanations. I found these posts surprising because they  
seem to have borrowed their manner of response from John McCain's  
recent interview on gay adoption [2]. They approached some clear and  
specific concerns in a way that geometry does not address - had they  
done so tangentially it would have been a vast improvement.

I think my first project will be called MokoBingo! (with the  
exclamation mark!)! It will check the mailing list on a regular basis  
and the Freerunner will make a squeaky noise when any of the  
following terms are encountered:

   Open, free, innovation, imaginative
   creative, community. Resources, sharing,
   imagination, struggle, essential ideas.
   Foundation, openness, art, growth.
   Self-organize,
   building dreams.
   Productive!
   Understanding, the power of open.
   diversity, change.

Actually, you will get two squeaks for "self-organize".

Stroller.




[1] [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an Openmoko employee, right?
[2] http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=llZuoMXpr4s

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Michele Renda]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jay Vaughan wrote:
> It is *important* that such things as a usable GUI, which  
> looks nice, are presented very, very rapidly - there is no other way  
> for our projects to snowball than to attract the interest of those who  
> will use the hardware.  So far, nobody is enjoying the usability  
> experience, terribly much, and this is because of this attitude that  
> 'the community will fix it'.

I give you reason. A gui, a wiki are the first things that a user see.

I think a very nice gui, can convince a lot of people to buy a phone in
place of another. Wiki is the first place where a person go searching
for info.

The problem is that to did this has a cost. And big too. An artist cost
a lot and I prefer OM use his resources to take a kernel developer or an
hardware enginer.

This don't mean that OM don't need of skilled graphician and people that
can help Brenda to take care of the wiki.


> Sorry, its one thing to fixup the GPS/SD issue (which is still  
> borked), its another thing entirely to sit down before you commit any  
> further silicon and say "this doesn't work, it is not to our  
> specificaiton, we need to /design/ it better".  Glamo, SD, GPS.  Three  
> things we really do *not* want to talk too loudly about, if we want to  
> continue to attract developers.. and I am fairly convinced that it is  
> the lackadaisical attitude to the qualities of the hardware, which  
> would ordinarily be addressed through a *strong* design ethos, which  
> brought this situation about.

I don't think it was a "we don't care". Error can happen. With lucky
some were possible to be solve.
In the future they will learn by their experience, and we finally we
will have from Linux 1.0 a Ubuntu 8.04 / Fedora 9 with Gnome / Compiz /
KDE4 :)

> 
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> I can't speak for anybody else, but what were you actually expecting  
> of
> the Neo FR?  A finished SDK that you can develop against to build your
> app on?

Having worked in Open-Hardware for over 15 years now, I was, in fact,  
expecting a much more coherent strategy for the software platform on  
Freerunner than just "let the community decide".  Certainly, the  
community aspect of this project is huge; I am not saying that it is  
not valuable to have such great public influence on the design; just  
that: there *has* to be a rigid design approach to guide development,  
or else we end up with a torn map navigating fork-city.

>  To me this is Linux pre 1.0 with with no GNOME or KDE or XFCE
> or ... any evolved user interface.  I'm okay with that - it's early  
> days
> yet.  I can just about see what they are doing, but it's very early in
> the game.  Too early to expect a stable platform you can write your  
> apps
> against ONCE.

It may well be too early in the game, but there is definitely the  
desire among the community for a little more leadership on such issues  
as how to deliver the most basic functionality of the device.

Wasn't there some sort of design for what an "open MObile  
KOmmunicator" would try to achieve, or did it get as far as "lets make  
some expensive handsets and sell them without software to people who  
will write the software and do all the hard parts for us so that at  
the end of the day there will be users interested in the experience?"

> Ask yourself: WHY did you buy the Neo FreeRunner?  I'm curious.  Why  
> did
> you buy it after reading the wiki and just about every other piece of
> information about it said "I'm really new, not finished, alpha  
> software,
> may not work, etc, etc.".  I know why I bought it.
>

I bought it because I want to write interesting software for it, and I  
want to participate in the process of designing and developing  
interesting communications applications.  I'm doing that.  But to be  
frank, its not a very fun process when there are too many targets to  
shoot at.  It was terribly frustrating to learn that OM was the wrong  
choice for the phone and that a new start had to be made by those  
involved in delivering the basics of the distro for others - users and  
developers alike - to start targeting and using.


>> Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the
>> current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards
>> adhere to that design.
> How would you go about doing that?  You ask a lot of questions.  How
> would you start to answer them?


I would at least try to get all the basic phone functions working,  
even if it meant copying the designed functionality from another,  
commercial vendor, and focus on that, and only that, first and  
foremost.  I certainly would not have forked the distro and set things  
adrift vis a vis ASU/FSO/Qtopia/OM2007.2, anyway.

But look, I'm flogging a dead horse here, if only because Seans mail  
raised my ire.  I spent the whole day trying to make and take calls on  
a phone that is over 2 years in the making .. with terrible results.   
So tonight I'll try ASU, and then QTopia, and then .. ;/ and maybe  
I'll go back to OM2007.2, where I at least have a couple apps of my  
own currently, sort of (SDL is broken), running ..


;
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Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> Openmoko is trying to do what can: is trying to build a phone. It is
> trying to build a running open hardware: It will not be perfect but it
> will be open. You will know all the defect and compromise token to get
> it. Then is your choose. And don't tell to me that OM hardware is  
> broken
> because you know it, while other firm's hardware that keep all closed,
> are prerfect because you don't know about defects?
>

I'm fully aware that hardware companies cover their asses with  
software fixups.

Thats not the issue I'm declaring, which is: please can we have some  
attention to the design, so that we're not constantly chasing an  
unknown.  It is *important* that such things as a usable GUI, which  
looks nice, are presented very, very rapidly - there is no other way  
for our projects to snowball than to attract the interest of those who  
will use the hardware.  So far, nobody is enjoying the usability  
experience, terribly much, and this is because of this attitude that  
'the community will fix it'.

> In this situation there is no way to drive a community. We must to  
> stop
> and to think on ourself. What we did on our phone?

I guess this is really the essence of the situation.

> I remmeber when there was the GPS/SD problem, how a lot of person
> outside OM and inside OM started to work togheter and WE did a  
> miracle.
>

Sorry, its one thing to fixup the GPS/SD issue (which is still  
borked), its another thing entirely to sit down before you commit any  
further silicon and say "this doesn't work, it is not to our  
specificaiton, we need to /design/ it better".  Glamo, SD, GPS.  Three  
things we really do *not* want to talk too loudly about, if we want to  
continue to attract developers.. and I am fairly convinced that it is  
the lackadaisical attitude to the qualities of the hardware, which  
would ordinarily be addressed through a *strong* design ethos, which  
brought this situation about.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Alex Kavanagh]

Jay Vaughan wrote, On 28/07/08 21:31:
>> Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have  
>> our
>> own ways of understanding and making meanings.
>> You are free to create your own meanings.
>> 
>
>
> I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste  
> dilettante waffling about "not having a design because its up to the  
> open community" is going to drive things forward.  Are you, or are you  
> not, committed to delivering a working phone platform that *users* and  
> developers alike are going to be interested in?  Then: some standards  
> need to be put forth, and they need to be adhered to.
>   
I can't speak for anybody else, but what were you actually expecting of
the Neo FR?  A finished SDK that you can develop against to build your
app on?To me this is Linux pre 1.0 with with no GNOME or KDE or XFCE
or ... any evolved user interface.  I'm okay with that - it's early days
yet.  I can just about see what they are doing, but it's very early in
the game.  Too early to expect a stable platform you can write your apps
against ONCE.
> Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the  
> koolaid.  Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware  
> in order to cash in on the "Open Community" meme, or what?
>   
Ask yourself: WHY did you buy the Neo FreeRunner?  I'm curious.  Why did
you buy it after reading the wiki and just about every other piece of
information about it said "I'm really new, not finished, alpha software,
may not work, etc, etc.".  I know why I bought it.

> Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the  
> current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards  
> adhere to that design.
How would you go about doing that?  You ask a lot of questions.  How
would you start to answer them?

Cheers
Alex.

>   Provide, at the very least, a reference  
> platform for your daily bread.  Lead this community, don't just throw  
> its fates to the winds of its own desire; that is *doom* for all who  
> have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently  
> to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile.
>   

>
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>   

-- 
Alex Kavanagh
Home: http://alex.kavanagh.name, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Work: http://www.tinwood.com,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
XMPP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]/Gaim


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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Michele Renda]

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Jay Vaughan wrote:

> Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the  
> koolaid.  Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware  
> in order to cash in on the "Open Community" meme, or what?

Hi Jay. First person that installed Linux 1.0 was installing a very
usable system where all the periferical was full running? Linus Torvalds
was receiving every day a lot of email where people was telling that
their new IPod was not running?

Openmoko is trying to do what can: is trying to build a phone. It is
trying to build a running open hardware: It will not be perfect but it
will be open. You will know all the defect and compromise token to get
it. Then is your choose. And don't tell to me that OM hardware is broken
because you know it, while other firm's hardware that keep all closed,
are prerfect because you don't know about defects?


> 
> Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the  
> current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards  
> adhere to that design.  Provide, at the very least, a reference  
> platform for your daily bread.  Lead this community, don't just throw  
> its fates to the winds of its own desire;

The problem is if the community need to be lead or if want the food ready.
When in every day I read a lot of email: This is not running, this is
bad, why to use this toolkit, why it must be so.
In this situation there is no way to drive a community. We must to stop
and to think on ourself. What we did on our phone?

I remmeber when there was the GPS/SD problem, how a lot of person
outside OM and inside OM started to work togheter and WE did a miracle.

OM "alone" couldn't be able to solve the issue, but togheter we did what
was impossible. There is still a lot of work to do. There is the need of
very talented developer, passioned people to make this project possible.

There is a Wiki, that need a lot of work, may be of a complete
restruction, there is the need to understands why umts cards doesn't
run, how to have SMS working, etc.

I am sure outside, in these ML there are a lot of very talented people,
people that can make the difference. We need them, not people that
reming we produce a mediocre hardware and incomplete software.

Freedom is hard to get

> that is *doom* for all who  
> have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently  
> to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile.


> 
> 
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

> Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have  
> our
> own ways of understanding and making meanings.
> You are free to create your own meanings.


I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste  
dilettante waffling about "not having a design because its up to the  
open community" is going to drive things forward.  Are you, or are you  
not, committed to delivering a working phone platform that *users* and  
developers alike are going to be interested in?  Then: some standards  
need to be put forth, and they need to be adhered to.

Because at this point, it seems to me that you've just pissed in the  
koolaid.  Basically, you're just selling incomplete, mediocre hardware  
in order to cash in on the "Open Community" meme, or what?

Please, for all that is merciful and mighty, *get a design* for the  
current systems done, and make sure your team of superlative wizards  
adhere to that design.  Provide, at the very least, a reference  
platform for your daily bread.  Lead this community, don't just throw  
its fates to the winds of its own desire; that is *doom* for all who  
have invested so far in the hopes that the platform grows sufficiently  
to make the not insignificant effort to play along, worthwhile.


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On 7/29/08 Jay Vaughan wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> This does not work.  That is all.

Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have our 
own ways of understanding and making meanings.

You are free to create your own meanings.

   -Sean

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Jay Vaughan]

[snip]

This does not work.  That is all.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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