Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:16:37 +0100, Etienne Labaume [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selon Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. Probably France is the dumbest country right now about taxes and other stupid stuff... Yeah, almost every tax talked about in this thread exists in France. But how do we avoid the Neo to be taxable ? As said, if you don't sell the phone with an embedded player, I think the neo become out of conditions to be taxed. At least, you can justify that you are buying a phone and nothing else. -- Etienne Labaume -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. Don't worry, French geeks are pissed off as well Yeah, almost every tax talked about in this thread exists in France. But how do we avoid the Neo to be taxable ? As said, if you don't sell the phone with an embedded player, I think the neo become out of conditions to be taxed. At least, you can justify that you are buying a phone and nothing else. The best would be a special french openmoko version: without user-accessible Flash memory or multimedia features (so that you don't have the possibility to broadcast unregulated copyrighted content when your phone is ringing for instance), possibly no connectivity at all... Better get myself a Motorola F3 then... :p Or buy it outside France. FLo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity / Switzerland too
Le vendredi 25 janvier 2008 à 10:37 +0100, Steven Le Roux a écrit : On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:16:37 +0100, Etienne Labaume [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selon Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. Probably France is the dumbest country right now about taxes and other stupid stuff... Yeah, almost every tax talked about in this thread exists in France. But how do we avoid the Neo to be taxable ? As said, if you don't sell the phone with an embedded player, I think the neo become out of conditions to be taxed. At least, you can justify that you are buying a phone and nothing else. To jump on this topic, Switzerland has recently adopted the same. Since audio tapes, we still stick on a (low) taxes on recordable media (CD, DVD, tapes, ..) and last year, we got taxed on the MP3 players. They was talking about HDD too ... :( -- Alexandre Ghisoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] YCOM SA ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Friday 25 January 2008 01:00:06 Fabian Olesen wrote: this will not work in denmark, because the phone will be deemed capable of doing it. Why? The phone itself isn't capable to play anything until you add the software. It has a stereo audio circuitry, but it could be used just to listen and record calls and VoIP. I'd like FIC to sell mp3 software including in the cost the license to play mp3, along adding a notice (for the countries which need it) that the phone isn't licensed to play music and that if needed the support must be bought later. I remember Apple selling support for 802.11n for some of their MacBooks (which is *just* software). So you can say that hardware isn't capable of something until you add the software IMHO. On Jan 25, 2008 12:51 AM, Tim Erwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Can this be worked around by not shipping the neo with mp3 or video software and make it up to the user to download this later? What about ogg or flac... ;) Cheers, Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
One of the dumbest tax we have here France is about multimedia hard drives, defined as an external hard drive (with usb) with a video output connecting to a tv without the use of a computer. There is a tax on these devices. But no (or less) tax on raw HDDs And no tax on empty hdd racks with video output. http://www.pcinpact.com/actu/news/41360-remuneration-redevance-copie-privee.htm(sorry, in french) :D sebastien ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:00:58 -0500, Colan Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I definitely don't think FIC (or now Openmoko) should include the cost (if there is one) of the licence to play MP3s. I don't want to pay that, and I don't think anyone else should either. I'm happy with just Ogg and FLAC files. Maybe an MP3 library can be downloaded separately, like the way most Linux distributions handle DVD playing. If you want to pay for MP3s, don't make me pay for it as well! ;) Yes I understand what you mean. But, to them, mp3 means audio... and I presume all audio playing habilities. It's not about a codec. We could think about reading only mid files and block all other files... just during the shipping and the user enable it easyly but the easier way is to provide any player on repository but not out of box. Before to know how to do it... Does it make sense for some other than me ? for the Openmoko team ? the marketing team ? And I really like that speeding ticket analogy. This tax that assumes guilt is insane. I don't understand how modern democratic justice systems can tolerate it. I repeat, this taxe doesn't exit as counterbalancing the illegal use of audio files. It's more like a compensation for private copy. (This is still incoherent because they are taxing a potential use, but not a real usage... I mean I could never hear their music... watch their movies etc...) -c. -- Colan Schwartz Internet Consultant | Openject Consulting | http://www.openject.com/ -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 12:57:05PM +0100, Stefano Cavallari wrote: I'd like FIC to sell mp3 software including in the cost the license to play mp3, along adding a notice (for the countries which need it) that the phone isn't licensed to play music and that if needed the support must be bought later. I definitely don't think FIC (or now Openmoko) should include the cost (if there is one) of the licence to play MP3s. I don't want to pay that, and I don't think anyone else should either. I'm happy with just Ogg and FLAC files. Maybe an MP3 library can be downloaded separately, like the way most Linux distributions handle DVD playing. If you want to pay for MP3s, don't make me pay for it as well! ;) And I really like that speeding ticket analogy. This tax that assumes guilt is insane. I don't understand how modern democratic justice systems can tolerate it. -c. -- Colan Schwartz Internet Consultant | Openject Consulting | http://www.openject.com/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Friday 25 January 2008 16:00:58 Colan Schwartz wrote: I definitely don't think FIC (or now Openmoko) should include the cost (if there is one) of the licence to play MP3s. I don't want to pay that, and I don't think anyone else should either. I'm happy with just Ogg and FLAC files. Maybe an MP3 library can be downloaded separately, like the way most Linux distributions handle DVD playing. I mean a separate license with software, which you can choose to buy or not :) If you want to pay for MP3s, don't make me pay for it as well! ;) And I really like that speeding ticket analogy. This tax that assumes guilt is insane. I don't understand how modern democratic justice systems can tolerate it. -c. I think it is wrong too, and that is just a workaround to not classify the FreeRunner as a mp3 player device. -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
And I really like that speeding ticket analogy. This tax that assumes guilt is insane. I don't understand how modern democratic justice systems can tolerate it. Well, modern democratic justice is money, but that's another war. ;-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Friday 25 January 2008 16:14:17 Stefano Cavallari wrote: On Friday 25 January 2008 16:00:58 Colan Schwartz wrote: I definitely don't think FIC (or now Openmoko) should include the cost (if there is one) of the licence to play MP3s. I don't want to pay that, and I don't think anyone else should either. I'm happy with just Ogg and FLAC files. Maybe an MP3 library can be downloaded separately, like the way most Linux distributions handle DVD playing. I mean a separate license with software, which you can choose to buy or not :) If you want to pay for MP3s, don't make me pay for it as well! ;) Do the law talk really about mp3 playing or about music playing? I think the latter is true. (can anyone confirm?) In that case you would need to pay the tax as long you provide an application which plays movies or music, whatever the format. -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
Ok, add Spain to the list of countries in which this tax exists. So far we have this tax in CD, DVD, Hard Drives, USB memories, MP3 and MP4 players, MP3 playing mobiles, photocopiers, scanners, printers, memory cards... And they even want to extent this to everything that can be used to copy audio-visual material, I don´t know how far it can get but it is scary. Maybe they want to apply this tax to paper and pencils too, because they can be used to copy the musical notes of a song or its lyrics. Who knows what will happen? There are groups and organizations in Spain fighting against this tax and I hope someday this pointless tax will be abolished. I don´t know if the Neo will be exempt of this tax if it comes without the software that makes it able to copy music, because even a hard drive or USB memory (that are not able to copy music by themselves) have this tax. On 25/01/2008, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Schmidt András ha scritto: Richard Reichenbacher wrote: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. In Hungary there is tax on every _empty_ Compact Disc and DVD. The concept is that you will store warez mp3 on them. So when I archive my personal photos or software projects I pay tax for the recording companies. I don't know the current state but there was rumour about extending the tax on all storage devices (including hard disks and flash pen drives). Inside the EU it is legal to import gadget from any country from inside the EU without paying taxes. So these devices can be bought in the surrounding countries cheaper. You can disrespect it. It is a really dumb kind of tax :-). US people may say it is stupid, but at least there are no software patents here yet :-). SA Oh, in Italy there are no software patents but there is a stupid tax like that in Hungary, a tax that you pay on each thing which has the ability to store datas (empty CDs, HDDs,...), that's because you could potentially store something like illegal MP3s, illegal videos and pirated copy of anything, so that tax is made (if i can remember well) to refound the damage that anyone is subject. So, the logic will say that if you pay that tax you CAN copy anything and download anything legal or not from the internet, you are paying for that, but no, you can't. Yeah, it's a stupid tax but hey you COULD do an illegal use of the storage media Cya Pietro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Alejandro Enrique ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
Hi all, According to this (http://www.pcinpact.com/actu/news/41415-iphone-ipod-taxe-commission-dalbis-copie-pri.htm french speaking) France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Obviously, this taxe is made to be iphone compliant, so I think the neo is too... If this case is occuring everywhere else (other country), I think it could be a good idea to distribute OpenMoko without any mp3 player but with a prompt at first wifi connexion for example which ask if you want install the related ipkg packages...or in an intallation wizard menu (no I don't want to be taxed again for that ! ;) ) -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:07:23 +0100, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Neo doesn't have keys dedicated to anything except turning it on and off. A touch screen is a versatile controller with areas assigned to different features at different times, with no part of it being dedicated to anything in particular. So it cannot be said that Neo has a control dedicated to audio playing. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:19:46 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:07:23 +0100, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Neo doesn't have keys dedicated to anything except turning it on and off. A touch screen is a versatile controller with areas assigned to different features at different times, with no part of it being dedicated to anything in particular. So it cannot be said that Neo has a control dedicated to audio playing. They are discussing about conditions and taxe for less than these 3 cases (for example only mp3 playing hability) And the screentouch case is the same for iphone I think... and iphone is clearly taxed for them. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. On Jan 24, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:19:46 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:07:23 +0100, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Neo doesn't have keys dedicated to anything except turning it on and off. A touch screen is a versatile controller with areas assigned to different features at different times, with no part of it being dedicated to anything in particular. So it cannot be said that Neo has a control dedicated to audio playing. They are discussing about conditions and taxe for less than these 3 cases (for example only mp3 playing hability) And the screentouch case is the same for iphone I think... and iphone is clearly taxed for them. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Can this be worked around by not shipping the neo with mp3 or video software and make it up to the user to download this later? What about ogg or flac... ;) Cheers, Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:19:46 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:07:23 +0100, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Neo doesn't have keys dedicated to anything except turning it on and off. A touch screen is a versatile controller with areas assigned to different features at different times, with no part of it being dedicated to anything in particular. So it cannot be said that Neo has a control dedicated to audio playing. They are discussing about conditions and taxe for less than these 3 cases (for example only mp3 playing hability) And the screentouch case is the same for iphone I think... and iphone is clearly taxed for them. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
well, in denmark we pay a license to be able to watch the national tv, and listen to national radio stations, but they did decide that it now had to be a media license, because it was possible to listen to them online, and see different programmes online, so now if you have a computer, but no tv, or, a multimedia phone, you will have to pay what equals to 210 pounds a year. talk about stupid laws. Fabian On Jan 25, 2008 12:43 AM, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. On Jan 24, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:19:46 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:07:23 +0100, Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Neo doesn't have keys dedicated to anything except turning it on and off. A touch screen is a versatile controller with areas assigned to different features at different times, with no part of it being dedicated to anything in particular. So it cannot be said that Neo has a control dedicated to audio playing. They are discussing about conditions and taxe for less than these 3 cases (for example only mp3 playing hability) And the screentouch case is the same for iphone I think... and iphone is clearly taxed for them. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Mvh Fabian Olesen If it moves, compile it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
this will not work in denmark, because the phone will be deemed capable of doing it. On Jan 25, 2008 12:51 AM, Tim Erwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: France is about to taxe smartphone which provide 3 features : - At least 128mo internal memory (neo will have 256) - at least one touch/key dedicated to audio playing (what about a touchscreen ?) - mp3 or video playing Can this be worked around by not shipping the neo with mp3 or video software and make it up to the user to download this later? What about ogg or flac... ;) Cheers, Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Mvh Fabian Olesen If it moves, compile it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
Richard Reichenbacher wrote: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. In Hungary there is tax on every _empty_ Compact Disc and DVD. The concept is that you will store warez mp3 on them. So when I archive my personal photos or software projects I pay tax for the recording companies. I don't know the current state but there was rumour about extending the tax on all storage devices (including hard disks and flash pen drives). Inside the EU it is legal to import gadget from any country from inside the EU without paying taxes. So these devices can be bought in the surrounding countries cheaper. You can disrespect it. It is a really dumb kind of tax :-). US people may say it is stupid, but at least there are no software patents here yet :-). SA ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
The speedometer on my Volkswagen says my 10-year old Passat is capable of driving 160mph, but doesn't mean I should have to pay a speeding ticket as though I do. I concur, these tax laws are silly business. I was glad to hear that Canada shut down the DRM tax that some group was trying to get the government to back them up on. Ian Fabian Olesen wrote: this will not work in denmark, because the phone will be deemed capable of doing it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
Schmidt András ha scritto: Richard Reichenbacher wrote: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. In Hungary there is tax on every _empty_ Compact Disc and DVD. The concept is that you will store warez mp3 on them. So when I archive my personal photos or software projects I pay tax for the recording companies. I don't know the current state but there was rumour about extending the tax on all storage devices (including hard disks and flash pen drives). Inside the EU it is legal to import gadget from any country from inside the EU without paying taxes. So these devices can be bought in the surrounding countries cheaper. You can disrespect it. It is a really dumb kind of tax :-). US people may say it is stupid, but at least there are no software patents here yet :-). SA Oh, in Italy there are no software patents but there is a stupid tax like that in Hungary, a tax that you pay on each thing which has the ability to store datas (empty CDs, HDDs,...), that's because you could potentially store something like illegal MP3s, illegal videos and pirated copy of anything, so that tax is made (if i can remember well) to refound the damage that anyone is subject. So, the logic will say that if you pay that tax you CAN copy anything and download anything legal or not from the internet, you are paying for that, but no, you can't. Yeah, it's a stupid tax but hey you COULD do an illegal use of the storage media Cya Pietro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: France : Taxes for video and mp3 playing capacity
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:43:10 -0700, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No direspect or anything but that's probably the dumbest tax I've ever heard of. Probably France is the dumbest country right now about taxes and other stupid stuff... This is an other debate ) -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
