Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
Again good news: we have won one of the new PandaBoards (OMAP4 / ARM Coretx A9) boards through the PandaBoard Early Adopter Program: http://omappedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard_Voting#PHASE-I_Winners http://omappedia.org/wiki/PEAP_Projects#Handheld_LCD_.26_GPS_.26_Navigation_Expansion_Board http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid Our goal is to adapt the hard- and software of the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid to this new board. This will give even more power to future Openmoko devices. Nikolaus Am 14.09.2010 um 10:50 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Hi, you may wonder what has happened to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] mentioned in the August Community update (cited below). First of all we had some delay with our SMD assembly company. They had holidays on one hand and more work than expected (economy appears indeed to flourish again). But now we have 10 kits available to find a new home. And we received a BeagleBoard XM some days ago and started to test the OM Hybrid. We found two major issues so far: 1. the BB-XM already comes with connectors soldered to the board. Unfortunately Murphy's law did hit us and the BB-XM uses the opposite gender as our approach for mounting to the BB-C4. We now have to adjust for that (by finding a simple adapter solution). 2. the BB-XM uses a different version of the bootloader that is not compatible with our own code extensions [2]. So we have to fix that so that our SD card image works on the both, the older BB-C and the new BB-XM. Why is the BB-XM important at all, considering that the BB-C4 is still available and a little cheaper? Well, the BB-XM comes with a new DM3730 processor (1 GHz ARM Cortex A8), has a built-in USB/Ethernet hub for 4 ports and a built-in RS232 converter. This makes it even more simple to experiment with Bluetooth, WiFi, UMTS sticks connected to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid while still having a portable design (using an external battery pack) to do experiments. So we work on these issues and just need some more days to solve them. Nikolaus [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/ Am 04.08.2010 um 10:28 schrieb Timo Jyrinki: Newest community update now available at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-08-01 and simplified text version below. Community Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc.. * Golden Delicious Computers released Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Boards including GPS and a gyroscope. At the same time, they announced - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-July/062609.html - plans to develop the next open hardware phone. Based on a OMAP3530 SoC this device will bring a lot of computing power to your pocket. ___ Smartphones-userland mailing list smartphones-userl...@linuxtogo.org http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/smartphones-userland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
we have won one of the new PandaBoards (OMAP4 / ARM Coretx A9) boards through the PandaBoard Early Adopter Program: Congratulations! This is good news, indeed. -- n...@el-hennig.de Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
On 13/10/2010 08:15, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Again good news: we have won one of the new PandaBoards (OMAP4 / ARM Coretx A9) boards through the PandaBoard Early Adopter Program: http://omappedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard_Voting#PHASE-I_Winners http://omappedia.org/wiki/PEAP_Projects#Handheld_LCD_.26_GPS_.26_Navigation_Expansion_Board http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid Our goal is to adapt the hard- and software of the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid to this new board. This will give even more power to future Openmoko devices. Nikolaus Am 14.09.2010 um 10:50 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: -- That's sound Excellent ! (still a lot of new work, but excellent news !) Thomas Hi, you may wonder what has happened to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] mentioned in the August Community update (cited below). First of all we had some delay with our SMD assembly company. They had holidays on one hand and more work than expected (economy appears indeed to flourish again). But now we have 10 kits available to find a new home. And we received a BeagleBoard XM some days ago and started to test the OM Hybrid. We found two major issues so far: 1. the BB-XM already comes with connectors soldered to the board. Unfortunately Murphy's law did hit us and the BB-XM uses the opposite gender as our approach for mounting to the BB-C4. We now have to adjust for that (by finding a simple adapter solution). 2. the BB-XM uses a different version of the bootloader that is not compatible with our own code extensions [2]. So we have to fix that so that our SD card image works on the both, the older BB-C and the new BB-XM. Why is the BB-XM important at all, considering that the BB-C4 is still available and a little cheaper? Well, the BB-XM comes with a new DM3730 processor (1 GHz ARM Cortex A8), has a built-in USB/Ethernet hub for 4 ports and a built-in RS232 converter. This makes it even more simple to experiment with Bluetooth, WiFi, UMTS sticks connected to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid while still having a portable design (using an external battery pack) to do experiments. So we work on these issues and just need some more days to solve them. Nikolaus [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/ Am 04.08.2010 um 10:28 schrieb Timo Jyrinki: Newest community update now available at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-08-01 and simplified text version below. Community Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc.. * Golden Delicious Computers released Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Boards including GPS and a gyroscope. At the same time, they announced - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-July/062609.html - plans to develop the next open hardware phone. Based on a OMAP3530 SoC this device will bring a lot of computing power to your pocket. ___ Smartphones-userland mailing list smartphones-userl...@linuxtogo.org http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/smartphones-userland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
Am 13.10.2010 um 10:01 schrieb Thomas HOCEDEZ: On 13/10/2010 08:15, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Again good news: we have won one of the new PandaBoards (OMAP4 / ARM Coretx A9) boards through the PandaBoard Early Adopter Program: http://omappedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard_Voting#PHASE-I_Winners http://omappedia.org/wiki/PEAP_Projects#Handheld_LCD_.26_GPS_.26_Navigation_Expansion_Board http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid Our goal is to adapt the hard- and software of the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid to this new board. This will give even more power to future Openmoko devices. Nikolaus Am 14.09.2010 um 10:50 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: -- That's sound Excellent ! (still a lot of new work, but excellent news !) Thanks! It is like starting a new branch of the next unstable version of Debian. Needs a lot of work and time to get it through testing to stable. So please don't expect results soon... The GTA04 will be finished before. We will report from time to time what we have achieved. The first step is to await that the PandaBoard arrives :) Well, it is the second step. The first is to study what we will get: http://pandaboard.org/sites/default/files/board_reference/EA1/Panda_Board_Spec_REVEA1_04.pdf Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
--- On Wed, 10/13/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Again good news: we have won one of the new PandaBoards (OMAP4 / ARM Coretx () Congratulations! Best regards, Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [ANN]: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - News
Hi, someone has asked for an update even talk a little about problems... 10. We also got some hints and offers for support to make high-density PCBs that are needed for the integration of a full OMAP system onto a motherboard replacement for the Freerunner. So we now think that finally, *we can do* a OMAP3530 upgrade for the Freerunner. But don't expect it soon. And it may not be cheap. This project will still take many small steps until we can announce something. We have ordered 10 sample PCBs and they were announced for last Friday but did not arrive. Today we learned that they had a problem in the production process and have to redo everything. So it will take a little longer until we can show you a GTA04 board. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - was: [Community Updates] 2010-08-01 is out
Hi, you may wonder what has happened to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] mentioned in the August Community update (cited below). First of all we had some delay with our SMD assembly company. They had holidays on one hand and more work than expected (economy appears indeed to flourish again). But now we have 10 kits available to find a new home. And we received a BeagleBoard XM some days ago and started to test the OM Hybrid. We found two major issues so far: 1. the BB-XM already comes with connectors soldered to the board. Unfortunately Murphy's law did hit us and the BB-XM uses the opposite gender as our approach for mounting to the BB-C4. We now have to adjust for that (by finding a simple adapter solution). 2. the BB-XM uses a different version of the bootloader that is not compatible with our own code extensions [2]. So we have to fix that so that our SD card image works on the both, the older BB-C and the new BB-XM. Why is the BB-XM important at all, considering that the BB-C4 is still available and a little cheaper? Well, the BB-XM comes with a new DM3730 processor (1 GHz ARM Cortex A8), has a built-in USB/Ethernet hub for 4 ports and a built-in RS232 converter. This makes it even more simple to experiment with Bluetooth, WiFi, UMTS sticks connected to the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid while still having a portable design (using an external battery pack) to do experiments. So we work on these issues and just need some more days to solve them. Nikolaus [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/ Am 04.08.2010 um 10:28 schrieb Timo Jyrinki: Newest community update now available at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-08-01 and simplified text version below. Community Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc.. * Golden Delicious Computers released Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Boards including GPS and a gyroscope. At the same time, they announced - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-July/062609.html - plans to develop the next open hardware phone. Based on a OMAP3530 SoC this device will bring a lot of computing power to your pocket. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[ANN]: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid - News
Hi all, it is quite a while since our first announcement of the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] and you may have wondered how the project is going. Since we have got a very positive feedback for our experiments and targets, we have tried to take seriously on all the feedback and worked on a new version (as far as it was possible in this phase). So let me report about news and progress: 1. The key software components (u-boot and kernel 2.6.29) are now available in a git repository [2] as well as binaries to be directly copied onto an SD card [3] 2. The binary downloads also includes an Debian Lenny rootfs demo image which is configured for our kernel and display/touch extensions. It opens LXDE and allows to run TangoGPS [4]. 3. We have fixed a major hardware issue which had made the LCD flicker and behave strangely 4. Touch screen is working (but will need some more driver configuration). 5. We have joined forces with the Freerunner Navigation Board project (barometer, compass, gyroscope etc.) [7] and also have added such sensors to the schematics [10]. But since some the chips are very expensive, not all will be populated on the PCB. 7. And, a big majority did vote for inclusion of GPS. So we will add the Sirf III GPS receiver (W2SG0004) and the 3-Axis I2C gyroscope (ITG3200) although the board became a little more expensive than originally thought (129 EUR instead of 99 EUR). 8. We have received bare boards and components, have worked with a SMT assembly company, and now have nice boards which are ready to be ordered [5]. Since we need to test and pack them, we can ship in approx. 2 weeks. 9. Regarding the request of a nice plastics case, we got quite encouraging ideas and proposals. E.g. using RepRap/Makerbot/Cupcake like 3D printers [6]. But this needs much more study and a long learning phase. Since the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid is more a development tool rather than a product, we will see what we can achieve. If you have such a 3D printer, please try to print a Freerunner case and report results (e.g. precision, appearance, quality, speed)! 10. We also got some hints and offers for support to make high-density PCBs that are needed for the integration of a full OMAP system onto a motherboard replacement for the Freerunner. So we now think that finally, *we can do* a OMAP3530 upgrade for the Freerunner. But don't expect it soon. And it may not be cheap. This project will still take many small steps until we can announce something. One of the major hurdles we see is that we will have to pass CE, RTTE certifications (since we have to add radio hardware). This is the ultimate challenge for a small team devoted to open hardware and software (even if backed by a company like Golden Delicious Computers). So we prefer to exercise for this tournament behind the curtain. 11. The best way to support our (current and future) projects is to buy the Beagle Hybrid [5]. And do experiments with it. Learn how to use and/or modify OMAP3530 software and give us feedback through a dedicated mailing list [8]. We would be very pleased if distributions like SHR, QtMoko, and others also start to support this hardware/kernel platform. It is not difficult since user space is quite compatible to the Freerunner and/or Beagle Board and Open Pandora. First experiments of just running the untarred Freerunner-rootfs of QtMoko were quite promising (we got touch calibration and were asked for choosing a user language before some component did segfault). So, let me invite you to help to build a new future of Openmoko devices! Nikolaus [1]:http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/ [2]:http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-uboot/source/tree/master/ http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/source/tree/master/ [3]:http://download.goldelico.com/ombeagle/trunk/ [4]:http://download.goldelico.com/ombeagle/images/MOV00541.AVI [5]:http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle [6]:http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.makerbot.com/cupcake [7]:http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v2 [8]:http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss [9]:http://www.mail-archive.com/community@lists.openmoko.org/msg60033.html [10]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/doc/ http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/downloads/26/ Mobile Office Solutions by Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG Buchenstr. 3 D-82041 Oberhaching +49-89-54290367 http://www.handheld-linux.com AG München, HRA 89571 VAT DE253626266 Komplementär: Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller Making Digital Tools for Independent People Independent People for Making Digital Tools
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi , The guy responsible for the layout of the pandora released a pcb description mentioning the solder pads http://www.openpandora.org/downloads/PANDORA_Hackers_manual_v100.pdf Since I plan to buy a pandora .. Could you have a closer look to verify whether the required connectors to attach the openmoko beagle hybrid kit are available? regards Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
I consider the very last diagramm very funny. For the future: There is Kicad. Its also very easy there to create new Chip-Symbols. Try it out ;-D But I'm glad to see that there are still people around, who design the hardware the good old El.Ing.-way. (Paper and pen) regards leviathan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 20.06.2010 um 11:09 schrieb Andreas Pokorny: Hi , The guy responsible for the layout of the pandora released a pcb description mentioning the solder pads http://www.openpandora.org/downloads/PANDORA_Hackers_manual_v100.pdf Thanks for the link! Interesting information we might need if we someday start to squeeze everything into a Freerunner case. Since I plan to buy a pandora .. Could you have a closer look to verify whether the required connectors to attach the openmoko beagle hybrid kit are available? Hm. The Pandora connectors and the Beagle Board connectors are *very* different. So I see the only method to connect the Beagle to the Pandora is through USB. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Which option would you prefer? Since this are too many for us to handle, please let us know the variants you like. We will then decide which ones we will finally produce. To simplify the answers, please vote here: http://www.doodle.com/huagbg7hu94zyame Ok, I think this poll already made clear that most of you are interested in a completely assembled offer (for software development). And a fresh LCD module would help to save disassembling a Freerunner (unless you have a broken one that is being covered by dust). So we drop the kit approach but keep the bare PCB just in case someone wants to have it. The other question gives a strong preference for GPS. We are still waiting to receive some components to verify that it (still) works on the new PCBs (this is in fact the second generation - the first one was done earlier this year). Nevertheless, you can already look into the data sheets of the W2SG004: http://www.wi2wi.com/products/datasheets/W2SG0004_Datasheet_Rev1.81.pdf And how to control the GPS receiver and antenna switch from user space: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/page/Devices/ Comments and contributions to the project pages are welcome. Nikolaus___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module (we are not sure if the internal Freerunner antenna module works, but an external antenna connected through the MMCX plug did work). This will increase the price of course. I'm a software guy, so options 1 and 2 are out for me. No preference w.r.t 3 vs 4. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi Joerg, Am 16.06.2010 um 21:51 schrieb Joerg Eesmann: Hi Nikolaus, Very good stuff, an open phone with OMAP3530-Power, my dream... I am a little off topic here, but I take the chance to ask eitherway. I am thinking about a little simpler NaviBoard. The actual Naviboard has 2x2 ADC with I2C and one 2axis Gyro(analogue) and one 1-axis gyro(analogue). A few weeks ago Sparkfun announced a new 3-axis gyro with I2C (IDG3200), which would make the Naviboard much simpler, I guess, and give the chance to add the pressure sensor (BMP085) to the PCB. These are interesting chips. To disclose a top secret: the OM Beagle Hybrid also has space for up to 1x ITG-3200, 2x LIS302, 1x HMC5843, 1x LSM303 (redundancy), and 1x BMP085, all connected to I2C2 of the BeagleBoard. In addition to the TSC2007 and a Wi2Wi GPS module. Let's cross fingers that at least some of them work :) I have one of these gyro on a breakoutboard in my hands, the chip is really tiny with a tiny tiny footprint. I think I will be able to solder the pressure sensor with a reflow oven in future (when my reflow oven is finished), but this gyro and the honeywell mangneto sensor. How do I solder them? How do I apply the solder paste to such a fine grid with no special epipment? You said, you also have at least one chip with BGA (0.5 pitch I guess) on your board, how did you manage to solder this during prototyping? Any tipps? Anyone? Christoph has already described one method that can be applied during prototyping. For the Beagle Hybrid, we did go to our SMD company and they have equipment to solder that for single parts. I don't know exactly how they do it, but it could be something like this machine: http://www.bomir.com/online/?sub=773 Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi Thomas, our current plan is described here: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle but prices may change a little. Also depends on the outcome which variants you all prefer. And the number of units. The status is that we have enough boards and are waiting to receive the stencils for mass production. Nikolaus Am 18.06.2010 um 07:40 schrieb Thomas HOCDEZ: Hi ! Whoao ! Such a good news ! Can you reveal to the community prices availability of the boards. I imagine you don't have thousands. I don(t know yet if I'm interrested (in fact my banker knows but ...). Thanks a lot great job ! Regards AstHrO On 15/06/2010 18:25, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, we were a little quiet the last days because we just had to wait to receive the final PCBs and some components and start testing the boards. We are currently thinking about different offers: 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module (we are not sure if the internal Freerunner antenna module works, but an external antenna connected through the MMCX plug did work). This will increase the price of course. But beware for variants 12: there are several 0402 components and one 0.5mm pitch BGA (TSC2007) for which you need very special soldering eqipment. Please let me know your preferences (either here or by private mail). Best regards, Nikolaus PS: the git for U-Boot and the kernel is already active PPS: I have just copied the QtMoko rootfs on the Beagle Board and it did run through touch screen calibration and language selection menu before some component did segfault Am 11.05.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Alvaro, Am 16.06.2010 um 01:35 schrieb Álvaro Lopes: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) And who's we, if I may ask ? I had the impression this was only a few-people project, not sponsored by any means. I doubt any of you have a pro SMT assembly line. We do not own the assembly line (why should we?). Many would read your option 3 as saying you have a pro SMT line, although it could also mean you have a PCB with components soldered on a pro line. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 16.06.2010 um 13:34 schrieb Al Johnson: On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Alvaro, Am 16.06.2010 um 01:35 schrieb Álvaro Lopes: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) And who's we, if I may ask ? I had the impression this was only a few-people project, not sponsored by any means. I doubt any of you have a pro SMT assembly line. We do not own the assembly line (why should we?). Many would read your option 3 as saying you have a pro SMT line, although it could also mean you have a PCB with components soldered on a pro line. Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): Which option would you prefer? 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Le 16/06/2010 14:05, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller a écrit : Am 16.06.2010 um 13:34 schrieb Al Johnson: On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Alvaro, Am 16.06.2010 um 01:35 schrieb Álvaro Lopes: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) And who's we, if I may ask ? I had the impression this was only a few-people project, not sponsored by any means. I doubt any of you have a pro SMT assembly line. We do not own the assembly line (why should we?). Many would read your option 3 as saying you have a pro SMT line, although it could also mean you have a PCB with components soldered on a pro line. Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): *Which option would you prefer? * 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module I vote for option 3). I like soldering, but 0402 components are too much for me ! -- Thomas HOCEDEZ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): Which option would you prefer? 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module So, If I get the Populated PCB and LCD module for 169 Euros, does that mean I don't have to break a Freerunner? That's the most attractive option to me. I like my Neo (-= Cheers, John Gay ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 16.06.2010 um 15:51 schrieb Gay, John (GE Energy Services, Non-GE): Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): Which option would you prefer? 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module So, If I get the Populated PCB and LCD module for 169 Euros, does that mean I don't have to break a Freerunner? That's the most attractive option to me. I like my Neo (-= Yes, we also plan a variant with a LCD module which works without touching a Freerunner (you may use the Neo power supply). The idea for a board with no LCM is that if you have a broken Freerunner collecting dust, you can give it a new life. And take the earpiece/speaker/vibracall that are mounted inside the plastics parts. But this is not reversible... GPS is a functional option adding a GPS receiver module and a handful other components (RLC, ICs). So it is an independent option to choose from. This may add approx. 40 EUR. So I should clarify the options: 1) bare PCB (and some key components only) 2) PCB and all components but nothing soldered 3) PCB with all components soldered 4) PCB with all components soldered and a fresh LCD module 5) PCB and all components (incl. GPS) but nothing soldered 6) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered 7) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered and a fresh LCD module Since this are too many for us to handle, please let us know the variants you like. We will then decide which ones we will finally produce. To simplify the answers, please vote here: http://www.doodle.com/huagbg7hu94zyame Nikolaus___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Le 16/06/2010 17:56, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller a écrit : Am 16.06.2010 um 15:51 schrieb Gay, John (GE Energy Services, Non-GE): Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): *Which option would you prefer? * 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module So, If I get the Populated PCB and LCD module for 169 Euros, does that mean I don't have to break a Freerunner? That's the most attractive option to me. I like my Neo (-= Yes, we also plan a variant with a LCD module which works without touching a Freerunner (you may use the Neo power supply). The idea for a board with no LCM is that if you have a broken Freerunner collecting dust, you can give it a new life. And take the earpiece/speaker/vibracall that are mounted inside the plastics parts. But this is not reversible... GPS is a functional option adding a GPS receiver module and a handful other components (RLC, ICs). So it is an independent option to choose from. This may add approx. 40 EUR. So I should clarify the options: 1) bare PCB (and some key components only) 2) PCB and all components but nothing soldered 3) PCB with all components soldered 4) PCB with all components soldered and a fresh LCD module 5) PCB and all components (incl. GPS) but nothing soldered 6) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered 7) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered and a fresh LCD module Since this are too many for us to handle, please let us know the variants you like. We will then decide which ones we will finally produce. To simplify the answers, please vote here: http://www.doodle.com/huagbg7hu94zyame Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community So much clear ! thx ! -- Thomas HOCEDEZ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: *Which option would you prefer? * 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) If i got it right a decent soldering kit needed for such an operation would cost a few hundred bucks... 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module 3 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi Nikolaus, Very good stuff, an open phone with OMAP3530-Power, my dream... I am a little off topic here, but I take the chance to ask eitherway. I am thinking about a little simpler NaviBoard. The actual Naviboard has 2x2 ADC with I2C and one 2axis Gyro(analogue) and one 1-axis gyro(analogue). A few weeks ago Sparkfun announced a new 3-axis gyro with I2C (IDG3200), which would make the Naviboard much simpler, I guess, and give the chance to add the pressure sensor (BMP085) to the PCB. I have one of these gyro on a breakoutboard in my hands, the chip is really tiny with a tiny tiny footprint. I think I will be able to solder the pressure sensor with a reflow oven in future (when my reflow oven is finished), but this gyro and the honeywell mangneto sensor. How do I solder them? How do I apply the solder paste to such a fine grid with no special epipment? You said, you also have at least one chip with BGA (0.5 pitch I guess) on your board, how did you manage to solder this during prototyping? Any tipps? Anyone? Thank you all in advance, Joerg On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 17:56 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 16.06.2010 um 15:51 schrieb Gay, John (GE Energy Services, Non-GE): Anyway, can you please keep focus on the original question (everything else does not bring us forward): Which option would you prefer? 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we can use one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module So, If I get the Populated PCB and LCD module for 169 Euros, does that mean I don't have to break a Freerunner? That's the most attractive option to me. I like my Neo (-= Yes, we also plan a variant with a LCD module which works without touching a Freerunner (you may use the Neo power supply). The idea for a board with no LCM is that if you have a broken Freerunner collecting dust, you can give it a new life. And take the earpiece/speaker/vibracall that are mounted inside the plastics parts. But this is not reversible... GPS is a functional option adding a GPS receiver module and a handful other components (RLC, ICs). So it is an independent option to choose from. This may add approx. 40 EUR. So I should clarify the options: 1) bare PCB (and some key components only) 2) PCB and all components but nothing soldered 3) PCB with all components soldered 4) PCB with all components soldered and a fresh LCD module 5) PCB and all components (incl. GPS) but nothing soldered 6) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered 7) PCB with all components (incl. GPS) soldered and a fresh LCD module Since this are too many for us to handle, please let us know the variants you like. We will then decide which ones we will finally produce. To simplify the answers, please vote here: http://www.doodle.com/huagbg7hu94zyame Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi Joerg! Am Mittwoch 16 Juni 2010, 21:51:53 schrieb Joerg Eesmann: Hi Nikolaus, Very good stuff, an open phone with OMAP3530-Power, my dream... I am a little off topic here, but I take the chance to ask eitherway. I am thinking about a little simpler NaviBoard. The actual Naviboard has 2x2 ADC with I2C and one 2axis Gyro(analogue) and one 1-axis gyro(analogue). A few weeks ago Sparkfun announced a new 3-axis gyro with I2C (IDG3200), which would make the Naviboard much simpler, I guess, and give the chance to add the pressure sensor (BMP085) to the PCB. I'm working on this. See my announcement mail. :) I have one of these gyro on a breakoutboard in my hands, the chip is really tiny with a tiny tiny footprint. I think I will be able to solder the pressure sensor with a reflow oven in future (when my reflow oven is finished), but this gyro and the honeywell mangneto sensor. How do I solder them? How do I apply the solder paste to such a fine grid with no special epipment? You said, you also have at least one chip with BGA (0.5 pitch I guess) on your board, how did you manage to solder this during prototyping? Any tipps? Anyone? Well, I reflow soldered the HMC5843 which is a 0.5mm pitch QFN. The steps are rather simple: - get a good PCB with the right footprint and soldermask - if you want to use solder paste, just apply an amount on the pcb and melt it with your solder iron. This should result in small dots of solder on the PCB. It's like a BGA, but with the balls mounted on the board. Working with solder paste but without stencil mask won't work for fine pitch applications. Just use normal solder wire for this task. It works equally well. - flux should not be necessary, but YMMV. - carefully place the QFN onto the solder drops. Make sure it aligns with the pads. Very small alignment errors will automatically be corrected during the reflow process. - place everything in your oven - recheck the alignment - heat the oven up until the solder melts. I used a piece of solder wire next to the board to see if the melting point was reached. - switch the oven off when you think it's done. The extra solder wire should look like a ball now and the chip should be sunken onto the surface of the PCB. Don't wait too long! That's it! good luck! Cheers, Christoph ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi all, we were a little quiet the last days because we just had to wait to receive the final PCBs and some components and start testing the boards. We are currently thinking about different offers: 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module (we are not sure if the internal Freerunner antenna module works, but an external antenna connected through the MMCX plug did work). This will increase the price of course. But beware for variants 12: there are several 0402 components and one 0.5mm pitch BGA (TSC2007) for which you need very special soldering eqipment. Please let me know your preferences (either here or by private mail). Best regards, Nikolaus PS: the git for U-Boot and the kernel is already active PPS: I have just copied the QtMoko rootfs on the Beagle Board and it did run through touch screen calibration and language selection menu before some component did segfault Am 11.05.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) And who's we, if I may ask ? I had the impression this was only a few-people project, not sponsored by any means. I doubt any of you have a pro SMT assembly line. I'm asking this also because I do not remember any SMT offer/proposal for GTA02-core except from USP. But this is good news, I assume. Having a second SMT line would surely ease things a bit, even if we have to pay for it. Any cost estimates for GTA02-core on that SMT line of yours ? Best, Álvaro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi ! Whoao ! Such a good news ! Can you reveal to the community prices availability of the boards. I imagine you don't have thousands. I don(t know yet if I'm interrested (in fact my banker knows but ...). Thanks a lot great job ! Regards AstHrO On 15/06/2010 18:25, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, we were a little quiet the last days because we just had to wait to receive the final PCBs and some components and start testing the boards. We are currently thinking about different offers: 1. PCB and very special components only (you can go shopping yourself). 2. PCB and complete component set (unsoldered) 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) 4. same as 3 including a Wi2Wi GPS receiver module (we are not sure if the internal Freerunner antenna module works, but an external antenna connected through the MMCX plug did work). This will increase the price of course. But beware for variants 12: there are several 0402 components and one 0.5mm pitch BGA (TSC2007) for which you need very special soldering eqipment. Please let me know your preferences (either here or by private mail). Best regards, Nikolaus PS: the git for U-Boot and the kernel is already active PPS: I have just copied the QtMoko rootfs on the Beagle Board and it did run through touch screen calibration and language selection menu before some component did segfault Am 11.05.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi Alvaro, Am 16.06.2010 um 01:35 schrieb Álvaro Lopes: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: 3. PCB and components already soldered on a professional SMT line (we have one) And who's we, if I may ask ? I had the impression this was only a few-people project, not sponsored by any means. I doubt any of you have a pro SMT assembly line. We do not own the assembly line (why should we?). I'm asking this also because I do not remember any SMT offer/proposal for GTA02-core except from USP. But this is good news, I assume. Having a second SMT line would surely ease things a bit, even if we have to pay for it. If you are willing to pay, there are several thousands of SMT lines around the world to choose from. I think we could enter the same endless discussion as in software: what does Free mean? Free beer or Free speech? Any cost estimates for GTA02-core on that SMT line of yours ? No idea. They need complete production documents to give a quotation. If you have your own line, may I assume you would prefer option 1 or 2? BR, Nikolaus Mobile Office Solutions by Golden Delicious Computers GmbHCo. KG Buchenstr. 3 D-82041 Oberhaching +49-89-54290367 http://www.handheld-linux.com AG München, HRA 89571 VAT DE253626266 Komplementär: Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller Making Digital Tools for Independent People Independent People for Making Digital Tools ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 23.05.2010 um 15:12 schrieb Martijn van Dongen: Nikolaus, I agree you should first play with something that is available. The information I got is from eurocircuit.com, The price is based on 4 layer 150 * 60 mm; just a wild guess of the size and layers based on standard technology, but giving an indication. More about the possibilities can be read in http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/stories/ec09/ec-services-leaflet-uk-english-4-2010-v2.pdf . I did not check any guidelines and requirements, so hard to say what suits. If somebody could provide more detailed information or point in a direction, a more serious price could be obtained. Ok, I see. They are a pooling supplier like others (pcb-pool, multipcb, etc.), but unfortunately such a project is well outside their offer. Just to mention some more or less important differences (I have not looked into all of them): * PCB thickness - 1.0 mm (or it will not fit into the Freerunner case) * 8 layers needed (or we can't connect all the many pins of the OMAP BGA) * stacked/filled Microvias (this is something like a minimum drill of 0.1 mm) * 0.1 mm wire width * etching and stop mask printing precision good enough for 0.3 mm SMD pads (BGA pitch is 0.4 mm) We have done some analyses and none of the online-pcb-shops can provide this. Therefore we asked several manufacturers by e-mail and most declined because they can't handle micro-vias. Some could do it but they said that our requirements drive PCBs cost up to factor 10. I don't know how the OpenPandora solved this (but they have produced 4000 boards so the cost may come down through to large volume). And, I don't know how the BeagleBoard project solved this. But I have read somewhere that they have only 6 layers (not using all features of the OMAP) and 3000 units per batch. Maybe, someone has also sponsored the prototyping phase where you have to produce boards at 500 EUR each. And then you find one misplaced connection or component :( For the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid we have just 2 layers (but no OMAP on board). So cost is much lower and comes into the range you have found. But we will add some margin to cover our development and prototyping cost. So that is the status as of today. If we can find a design that has big enough demand, we can bring down cost of PCBs to be insignificant (but only if we don't change the PCB design every now and then). This finally will lead to the question how many of us want to own such a new OMAP based motherboard for the Freerunner... But I think we are too early to really pose this question since for solid market research, one has to present at least a full concept (complete feature list and target price). BR, Nikolaus Regards, Martijn 2010/5/21 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com Yes, this all can be considered for a future version. What we wanted to start with is something that just works, is easily available, can be used for experimenting and software development and is not too costly. A nice case, a new PCB for the OMAP processor or using the Gumstix makes things much more expensive. @Yocto: what has to be considered is that the Gumstix does not fit into a Freerunner case (it is still too large/thick). @ Martijn: the OMAP BGA poses high level requirements for a new PCB. So I would be surprised if one can really get such PCBs for 15 € @ 50 units. But do you have more information? What have been your assumptions about # of layers, min. drill size, min. width etc.? Nikolaus Am 21.05.2010 um 15:48 schrieb Yocto: I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. Could we, also, consider the option of using a smaller board like the Gumstix Overo ? OMAP3503 with ARM Cortex-A8 at 600MHz 256MB RAM / 256MB Flash [ 17mm x 58mm x 4.2mm ]. http://www.gumstix.com Regards, // Yocto - Original Message - From: Martijn van Dongen To: List for Openmoko community discussion Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Hi, First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner. I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs. I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15. Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Em 25-05-2010 07:05, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escreveu: This finally will lead to the question how many of us want to own such a new OMAP based motherboard for the Freerunner... But I think we are too early to really pose this question since for solid market research, one has to present at least a full concept (complete feature list and target price). For me there are a few requirements about it: * it has to fit *inside* the freerunner box, or I'm not interested * it has to have a working GSM chip, or I'm not interested * it should be possible to port SHR (preferred) or Meego for it with little trouble, or I'm not interested This is only because I both: 1) use the Freerunner as my main phone 2) don't have the time to make it all work If these issues were gone, then maybe we could talk prices, but not before, at least for me. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi, 2010/5/25 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: [...] We have done some analyses and none of the online-pcb-shops can provide this. Therefore we asked several manufacturers by e-mail and most declined because they can't handle micro-vias. Some could do it but they said that our requirements drive PCBs cost up to factor 10. I don't know how the OpenPandora solved this (but they have produced 4000 boards so the cost may come down through to large volume). And, I don't know how the BeagleBoard project solved this. But I have read somewhere that they have only 6 layers (not using all features of the OMAP) and 3000 units per batch. [...] Since you mention the OpenPandora. Have you considered doing this as a hardware patch to this handheld console? I do not know if there is room for adding that in the case.. just an idea. If thats possible one could reuse a working pcb, a case and the touchscreen. regards Andreas Pokorny ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 25.05.2010 um 12:46 schrieb Andreas Pokorny: Hi, 2010/5/25 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: [...] We have done some analyses and none of the online-pcb-shops can provide this. Therefore we asked several manufacturers by e-mail and most declined because they can't handle micro-vias. Some could do it but they said that our requirements drive PCBs cost up to factor 10. I don't know how the OpenPandora solved this (but they have produced 4000 boards so the cost may come down through to large volume). And, I don't know how the BeagleBoard project solved this. But I have read somewhere that they have only 6 layers (not using all features of the OMAP) and 3000 units per batch. [...] Since you mention the OpenPandora. Have you considered doing this as a hardware patch to this handheld console? I do not know if there is room for adding that in the case.. just an idea. If thats possible one could reuse a working pcb, a case and the touchscreen. No, not at all. Both concepts are quite disjunct. Our intention is to finally come up with a new OMAP based motherboard for a Freerunner and the OM Beagle Hybrid is a first prototype to support software and concept development by plugging together a BeagleBoard and an expansion board with a Freerunner LCD module [1] (plus some glue electronics). The OpenPandora is a OMAP based gaming console with its own LCD. The OpenPandora is too big to fit into a Freerunner case. So connecting both doesn't make sense to me. Or did I misunderstand your idea? BR, Nikolaus [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi, I thought the target was to have a new oss phone with more modern or more common hardware, and since FR users are used to hardware patches :)... The FR users could become OP users with a special gsm/umts patch. But you are right the OP is a gaming console so it is also lacking some other features, like the accelerometer and the gps receiver. But there are two sdhc slots - maybe there is a sdio gps receiver. 2010/5/25 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: Am 25.05.2010 um 12:46 schrieb Andreas Pokorny: Hi, 2010/5/25 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: [...] We have done some analyses and none of the online-pcb-shops can provide this. Therefore we asked several manufacturers by e-mail and most declined because they can't handle micro-vias. Some could do it but they said that our requirements drive PCBs cost up to factor 10. I don't know how the OpenPandora solved this (but they have produced 4000 boards so the cost may come down through to large volume). And, I don't know how the BeagleBoard project solved this. But I have read somewhere that they have only 6 layers (not using all features of the OMAP) and 3000 units per batch. [...] Since you mention the OpenPandora. Have you considered doing this as a hardware patch to this handheld console? I do not know if there is room for adding that in the case.. just an idea. If thats possible one could reuse a working pcb, a case and the touchscreen. No, not at all. Both concepts are quite disjunct. Our intention is to finally come up with a new OMAP based motherboard for a Freerunner and the OM Beagle Hybrid is a first prototype to support software and concept development by plugging together a BeagleBoard and an expansion board with a Freerunner LCD module [1] (plus some glue electronics). The OpenPandora is a OMAP based gaming console with its own LCD. The OpenPandora is too big to fit into a Freerunner case. So connecting both doesn't make sense to me. Or did I misunderstand your idea? BR, Nikolaus [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hiya! Im doing some Mendel development (http://blog.arcol.hu), and I have a working 3D printer. Here is my offer: I can print you prototypes for free. You still need to pay for the shipping, so I dont loose too much money on it. If you are interested, shoot me an email. Also the machine has its limitations, so I doubt the final product can be made on it. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
2010/5/25 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: [...] The OpenPandora is a OMAP based gaming console with its own LCD. The OpenPandora is too big to fit into a Freerunner case. So connecting both doesn't make sense to me. Or did I misunderstand your idea? The idea was to design a small extension pcb with a gsm/umts chip and antenna attached to the internal gpio or uart connectors of the pandora. So the gaming console becomes a phone. regards Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Nikolaus, I agree you should first play with something that is available. The information I got is from eurocircuit.com, The price is based on 4 layer 150 * 60 mm; just a wild guess of the size and layers based on standard technology, but giving an indication. More about the possibilities can be read in http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/stories/ec09/ec-services-leaflet-uk-english-4-2010-v2.pdf. I did not check any guidelines and requirements, so hard to say what suits. If somebody could provide more detailed information or point in a direction, a more serious price could be obtained. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/21 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com Yes, this all can be considered for a future version. What we wanted to start with is something that just works, is easily available, can be used for experimenting and software development and is not too costly. A nice case, a new PCB for the OMAP processor or using the Gumstix makes things much more expensive. @Yocto: what has to be considered is that the Gumstix does not fit into a Freerunner case (it is still too large/thick). @ Martijn: the OMAP BGA poses high level requirements for a new PCB. So I would be surprised if one can really get such PCBs for 15 € @ 50 units. But do you have more information? What have been your assumptions about # of layers, min. drill size, min. width etc.? Nikolaus Am 21.05.2010 um 15:48 schrieb Yocto: I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. Could we, also, consider the option of using a smaller board like the Gumstix Overo ? OMAP3503 with ARM Cortex-A8 at 600MHz 256MB RAM / 256MB Flash [ 17mm x 58mm x 4.2mm ]. http://www.gumstix.com Regards, // Yocto - Original Message - *From:* Martijn van Dongen marvad@gmail.com *To:* List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org *Sent:* Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:00 PM *Subject:* Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Hi, First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner. I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs. I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15. Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. Could we, also, consider the option of using a smaller board like the Gumstix Overo ? OMAP3503 with ARM Cortex-A8 at 600MHz 256MB RAM / 256MB Flash [ 17mm x 58mm x 4.2mm ]. http://www.gumstix.com Regards, // Yocto - Original Message - From: Martijn van Dongen To: List for Openmoko community discussion Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Hi, First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner. I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs. I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15. Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Yes, this all can be considered for a future version. What we wanted to start with is something that just works, is easily available, can be used for experimenting and software development and is not too costly. A nice case, a new PCB for the OMAP processor or using the Gumstix makes things much more expensive. @Yocto: what has to be considered is that the Gumstix does not fit into a Freerunner case (it is still too large/thick). @ Martijn: the OMAP BGA poses high level requirements for a new PCB. So I would be surprised if one can really get such PCBs for 15 € @ 50 units. But do you have more information? What have been your assumptions about # of layers, min. drill size, min. width etc.? Nikolaus Am 21.05.2010 um 15:48 schrieb Yocto: I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. Could we, also, consider the option of using a smaller board like the Gumstix Overo ? OMAP3503 with ARM Cortex-A8 at 600MHz 256MB RAM / 256MB Flash [ 17mm x 58mm x 4.2mm ]. http://www.gumstix.com Regards, // Yocto - Original Message - From: Martijn van Dongen To: List for Openmoko community discussion Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Hi, First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner. I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs. I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15. Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Hi, First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner. I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs. I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15. Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price. Regards, Martijn 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: The problem is not technology or DIY capabilities, but cost. What we want to have is a nice case achievable for everybody, not only the enthusiast who wants to spend time and money for experimenting with DIY hardware or commercial FDM. So the question is how much does a SW developer want to pay to get HW + Case? Let's say 50 EUR per plastic case. FDM is at least 200 EUR (that is what we got as a quotation from the rapid-prototyping shops for a simple part and not the whole case). Or 700 EUR for a Cupcake. Or 5k for a protomold made thing. Or 10-20k EUR for a 3D printer. A full freerunner case consists of 6 plastic parts (incl. 2 buttons). The other side is expectation of quality/robustness. I have been told by experts who own a RepRap/CupCake that the precision is not good enough to reproduce a Freerunner case (wall thickness 0.5mm). true also its much too complex. i tried importing the 3d models into quite a lot of the free and or open 3d and machining tools, but the shear amount of detail seems to be a problem there. also there are limitations of what you can do with which each production-method: * e.g. for reprap-alikes, all overhangs 45deg need support structures. * milling in 3axis means you can only 'mill from e.g. above'.. to turn it to the side you already need a trick/mechanical help to mount it sideways, without loosing alignment, or a 4 or 5 axis mill (i don't think there is any free toolpath-gen for that yet) * laser cutting heavily depend on used materials and is basically '2d only' for the affordable machines (50keuro) this means designs consist out of 2d shapes. one 'stacks' afterwards or uses creative mounting methods to hold the shaped sheets together, like e.g. on the cupcake-cnc (makerbot) So if we find a method that allows to make 10 units from a budget of 500 EUR or 100 units from a total budget of 5000 EUR I am happy! tricky. we got a cnc mill (3axis, 800W spindle) as well as a simple lasercutter (50W) here in berlin in our hackspace. there is also a rep-rap-like printing head for thermoplastics, but thats not completely ready yet. the much bigger problem than machining itself, is getting a the design done. after that one needs to get the toolpath generated. special sw as well as expertise in that line of work is what it makes so expensive. milling itself isn't a very cheap form to 'produce something'. but still, its not the time the machine is running but the worktime of the human which makes it expensive. if somebody has too much free time and wanna try this, check out http://camgeeks.de/ and visit us there ;) free and/or open tools for mechanical engineering are still not quite 'done' (yet), but there is progress. Still they work well when you learned about their limits (or even extend them). ps: what about finding some 'ready made universal case' like from teko or boppla and do some cnc coutouts for the sockets? thats much easier. -- roh ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
On Monday 17 May 2010 10:45 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: So if we find a method that allows to make 10 units from a budget of 500 EUR or 100 units from a total budget of 5000 EUR I am happy! This may be a dumb response. But what about a machined metal (aluminium) case. These prices don't seem that bad. http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-shop/13-98-each-at-qty-50-CNC-Mill-Size-3-x-2-x-0-5-Holder-jig/img/page573.htmlimg_id=664 http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-shop/13-98-each-at-qty-50-CNC-Mill-Size-3-x-2-x-0-5-Holder-jig/img/page573.htmlimg_id=664 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 13:05 +0200, Joachim Steiger wrote: also there are limitations of what you can do with which each production-method: * e.g. for reprap-alikes, all overhangs 45deg need support structures. * milling in 3axis means you can only 'mill from e.g. above'.. to turn it to the side you already need a trick/mechanical help to mount it sideways, without loosing alignment, or a 4 or 5 axis mill (i don't think there is any free toolpath-gen for that yet) * laser cutting heavily depend on used materials and is basically '2d only' for the affordable machines (50keuro) this means designs consist out of 2d shapes. one 'stacks' afterwards or uses creative mounting methods to hold the shaped sheets together, like e.g. on the cupcake-cnc (makerbot) What about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Yq3glEyec not sure how much it cost tough. Also not as free as cupcake or makerbot. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 17.05.2010 um 20:00 schrieb GNUtoo: On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 13:05 +0200, Joachim Steiger wrote: also there are limitations of what you can do with which each production-method: * e.g. for reprap-alikes, all overhangs 45deg need support structures. * milling in 3axis means you can only 'mill from e.g. above'.. to turn it to the side you already need a trick/mechanical help to mount it sideways, without loosing alignment, or a 4 or 5 axis mill (i don't think there is any free toolpath-gen for that yet) * laser cutting heavily depend on used materials and is basically '2d only' for the affordable machines (50keuro) this means designs consist out of 2d shapes. one 'stacks' afterwards or uses creative mounting methods to hold the shaped sheets together, like e.g. on the cupcake-cnc (makerbot) What about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Yq3glEyec not sure how much it cost tough. Don't know either... Appears to be http://www.objet.com/3D-Printer/Connex500/ Results look quite good. Machine Weight: 500 kg :) Also not as free as cupcake or makerbot. Well, if results are affordable I would even accept a non-free solution (at least as a first step)... Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: However, you may also want to consider making the parts directly, without going via a cast. This is much more expensive for larger quantities, but if you only need a handful of cases anyway, it should be more efficient. The alternative would be 3D-Printing. There are now some quite good machines that can produce in ABS. Unfortunately these machines are rather expensive and operators want to have fast amortization. This raises cost of small quantities of cases like the freerunner well beyond 100 USD. Have you contacted any hackerspaces? Check this non-exhaustive list http://harkopen.com/hackerspaces -- - Atilla Filiz Eindhoven University of Technology Embedded Systems, Master's Programme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Personally I don't see what the big deal is with mold-making. Anybody could start a business doing that if it's so lucrative: get a Harbor Freight or other cheap milling machine and some blocks of aluminum, and develop the skill to do sufficiently accurate machining. (I have tried a little milling but my skill level definitely needs a lot of improvement; maybe it will if I ever get around to doing enough of it.) Of course CNC would be nice, but again, what's the big deal...3 steppers or servo motors and a controller... As someone else mentioned the Chinese obviously aren't having too much trouble with mold-making. It's also within the realm of possibility to make your own injection molding machine. There is a book (Gingery) about how to do that, but there is nothing too exotic in that book either... it's just a heated cylinder and piston arrangement with a lever to apply the pressure. Hot plastic comes squirting out, and you have your mold clamped in place to receive it. Alternatives include building a RepRap, making the plastic parts directly, and putting up with rough, inaccurate results; buying a better rapid prototyping machine (FDM type or laser sintering or the type that builds up parts from thin laminates); or directly CNC-milling the cases (you could even use wood then). As a DIY/hacker type thing rather than commercial, it might fly. Maybe try to get a story in Make Magazine because there seems to be a trendy new crowd of DIY/hacker types nowadays, who weren't around a couple years ago. Or get it made at one of the rapid-prototyping shops. For every type of RP technology there are multiple shops doing on-demand prototypes. In any event, the case design could be posted on http://www.thingiverse.com/ and maybe someone who has a RepRap or similar can try to make a prototype. There was a design contest going on but I guess the time has passed: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/04/makerbot_giveaway.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
The problem is not technology or DIY capabilities, but cost. What we want to have is a nice case achievable for everybody, not only the enthusiast who wants to spend time and money for experimenting with DIY hardware or commercial FDM. So the question is how much does a SW developer want to pay to get HW + Case? Let's say 50 EUR per plastic case. FDM is at least 200 EUR (that is what we got as a quotation from the rapid-prototyping shops for a simple part and not the whole case). Or 700 EUR for a Cupcake. Or 5k for a protomold made thing. Or 10-20k EUR for a 3D printer. A full freerunner case consists of 6 plastic parts (incl. 2 buttons). The other side is expectation of quality/robustness. I have been told by experts who own a RepRap/CupCake that the precision is not good enough to reproduce a Freerunner case (wall thickness 0.5mm). Am 17.05.2010 um 06:03 schrieb Shawn Rutledge: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Personally I don't see what the big deal is with mold-making. Anybody could start a business doing that if it's so lucrative: get a Harbor Freight or other cheap milling machine and some blocks of aluminum, and develop the skill to do sufficiently accurate machining. (I have tried a little milling but my skill level definitely needs a lot of improvement; maybe it will if I ever get around to doing enough of it.) Of course CNC would be nice, but again, what's the big deal...3 steppers or servo motors and a controller... As someone else mentioned the Chinese obviously aren't having too much trouble with mold-making. It's also within the realm of possibility to make your own injection molding machine. There is a book (Gingery) about how to do that, but there is nothing too exotic in that book either... it's just a heated cylinder and piston arrangement with a lever to apply the pressure. Hot plastic comes squirting out, and you have your mold clamped in place to receive it. Alternatives include building a RepRap, making the plastic parts directly, and putting up with rough, inaccurate results; buying a better rapid prototyping machine (FDM type or laser sintering or the type that builds up parts from thin laminates); or directly CNC-milling the cases (you could even use wood then). As a DIY/hacker type thing rather than commercial, it might fly. Maybe try to get a story in Make Magazine because there seems to be a trendy new crowd of DIY/hacker types nowadays, who weren't around a couple years ago. Or get it made at one of the rapid-prototyping shops. For every type of RP technology there are multiple shops doing on-demand prototypes. In any event, the case design could be posted on http://www.thingiverse.com/ and maybe someone who has a RepRap or similar can try to make a prototype. There was a design contest going on but I guess the time has passed: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/04/makerbot_giveaway.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
The problem is not technology or DIY capabilities, but cost. What we want to have is a nice case achievable for everybody, not only the enthusiast who wants to spend time and money for experimenting with DIY hardware or commercial FDM. So the question is how much does a SW developer want to pay to get HW + Case? Let's say 50 EUR per plastic case. FDM is at least 200 EUR (that is what we got as a quotation from the rapid-prototyping shops for a simple part and not the whole case). Or 700 EUR for a Cupcake. Or 5k for a protomold made thing. Or 10-20k EUR for a 3D printer. A full freerunner case consists of 6 plastic parts (incl. 2 buttons). The other side is expectation of quality/robustness. I have been told by experts who own a RepRap/CupCake that the precision is not good enough to reproduce a Freerunner case (wall thickness 0.5mm). So if we find a method that allows to make 10 units from a budget of 500 EUR or 100 units from a total budget of 5000 EUR I am happy! Am 17.05.2010 um 06:03 schrieb Shawn Rutledge: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Personally I don't see what the big deal is with mold-making. Anybody could start a business doing that if it's so lucrative: get a Harbor Freight or other cheap milling machine and some blocks of aluminum, and develop the skill to do sufficiently accurate machining. (I have tried a little milling but my skill level definitely needs a lot of improvement; maybe it will if I ever get around to doing enough of it.) Of course CNC would be nice, but again, what's the big deal...3 steppers or servo motors and a controller... As someone else mentioned the Chinese obviously aren't having too much trouble with mold-making. It's also within the realm of possibility to make your own injection molding machine. There is a book (Gingery) about how to do that, but there is nothing too exotic in that book either... it's just a heated cylinder and piston arrangement with a lever to apply the pressure. Hot plastic comes squirting out, and you have your mold clamped in place to receive it. Alternatives include building a RepRap, making the plastic parts directly, and putting up with rough, inaccurate results; buying a better rapid prototyping machine (FDM type or laser sintering or the type that builds up parts from thin laminates); or directly CNC-milling the cases (you could even use wood then). As a DIY/hacker type thing rather than commercial, it might fly. Maybe try to get a story in Make Magazine because there seems to be a trendy new crowd of DIY/hacker types nowadays, who weren't around a couple years ago. Or get it made at one of the rapid-prototyping shops. For every type of RP technology there are multiple shops doing on-demand prototypes. In any event, the case design could be posted on http://www.thingiverse.com/ and maybe someone who has a RepRap or similar can try to make a prototype. There was a design contest going on but I guess the time has passed: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/04/makerbot_giveaway.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid Kewl. But where's the duct tape ? :-) I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). Low-volume injection molding should be quite affordable if you provide the cast (aluminium) or at least a machine-ready design. Of course, if you have to pay for the entire design work too, things will get expensive. However, you may also want to consider making the parts directly, without going via a cast. This is much more expensive for larger quantities, but if you only need a handful of cases anyway, it should be more efficient. The issue then becomes access to equipment and experience. I think making a simple case should be little more than a weekend project for someone who's set up to do such things. The challenge seems to be to find such a person, or - if you're looking for an exciting new hobby - to become one :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 14.05.2010 um 16:36 schrieb Werner Almesberger: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid Kewl. But where's the duct tape ? :-) Between PCB and LCM :-) I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). Low-volume injection molding should be quite affordable if you provide the cast (aluminium) or at least a machine-ready design. Of course, if you have to pay for the entire design work too, things will get expensive. We have done some research and asked for quotation and the result is that if you want to get below 50 USD per unit (which is still a lot of money) you need a volume of 200 units. If you make any small mistake, you have to repeat the process and cost will increase by factor 2... So it is not good for learning and protoyping. However, you may also want to consider making the parts directly, without going via a cast. This is much more expensive for larger quantities, but if you only need a handful of cases anyway, it should be more efficient. The alternative would be 3D-Printing. There are now some quite good machines that can produce in ABS. Unfortunately these machines are rather expensive and operators want to have fast amortization. This raises cost of small quantities of cases like the freerunner well beyond 100 USD. So our observation is that there is no method which allows to produce 1-100 units for experimenting and testing - and still meets the expectations in quality and cost. But we may have missed something. When I walked through the Golden Mall during CeBIT this year, I wondered how approx. 500 small asian booths could display approx. 50 different products each (headsets, mice, keyboards, batteries, plugs, covers, fake phones, real phones, etc...). Each one must have its own plastics. So I would estimate several million USD in moulds have been on display :) The issue then becomes access to equipment and experience. I think making a simple case should be little more than a weekend project for someone who's set up to do such things. The challenge seems to be to find such a person, or - if you're looking for an exciting new hobby - to become one :-) A third alternative could be to experiment with Makerbot / Cupcake. Anyone tried to print a Freerunner case from the open 3D data? BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
A really good idea.Looking forward to its release. R.Sriranjan On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ gta02-core mailing list gta02-c...@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 11.05.2010 um 17:50 schrieb Michael Trimarchi: Hi, RANJAN wrote: A really good idea.Looking forward to its release. R.Sriranjan On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: I don't know why it's usefull, sorry for the question. If you can give me a board that replace the gta02 board and I can reuse battery and display and keyboard, that's can be great but other type of solution change openmoko on a developement board You are completely right in your expectation that we share. We would be happier if we could offer a motherboard replacement for the Freerunner. With OMAP and UMTS. But as Werner has already found out in the GTA02-core project this is still very far from becoming reality. The complexity is balancing circuit design with availability and cost of chips, and pcb layout with production processes. Nevertheless, the great open source mobile phone software developed by this community (SHR, QtMoko, FSO etc.) needs to have modern open and documented hardware to keep pace with pretededly-open platforms like iPhone, WebOS, etc. Therefore, this Openmoko Beagle Hybrid board gives us a tool to develop mobile applications with state of the art performance (except form factor). We, a small team of hardware developers, will continue to work on integrating everything better - but this is a long way to go. I am sure we will finally succeed because we have decided to do so, but I don't know when. So it is better to have something suboptimal than nothing... Nikolaus Michael There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ gta02-core mailing list gta02-c...@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core ___ gta02-core mailing list gta02-c...@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
kudos! 2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org Am 11.05.2010 um 17:50 schrieb Michael Trimarchi: Hi, RANJAN wrote: A really good idea.Looking forward to its release. R.Sriranjan On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: I don't know why it's usefull, sorry for the question. If you can give me a board that replace the gta02 board and I can reuse battery and display and keyboard, that's can be great but other type of solution change openmoko on a developement board You are completely right in your expectation that we share. We would be happier if we could offer a motherboard replacement for the Freerunner. With OMAP and UMTS. But as Werner has already found out in the GTA02-core project this is still very far from becoming reality. The complexity is balancing circuit design with availability and cost of chips, and pcb layout with production processes. Nevertheless, the great open source mobile phone software developed by this community (SHR, QtMoko, FSO etc.) needs to have modern open and documented hardware to keep pace with pretededly-open platforms like iPhone, WebOS, etc. Therefore, this Openmoko Beagle Hybrid board gives us a tool to develop mobile applications with state of the art performance (except form factor). We, a small team of hardware developers, will continue to work on integrating everything better - but this is a long way to go. I am sure we will finally succeed because we have decided to do so, but I don't know when. So it is better to have something suboptimal than nothing... Nikolaus Michael There is now a new Wiki page for the project: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given Beagleboard and the Freerunner case. Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for your creativity): • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed) • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8 And here some feature list: • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after cutting a hole) • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset) • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner - otherwise it would not fit into the case) • TSC2007 touch screen controller • Microphone • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner case) • 2 buttons (AUX and Power) • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons) • vibracall driver • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little and then it will be made public. Finally, here you can do preorders: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle Nikolaus ___ gta02-core mailing list gta02-c...@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core ___ gta02-core mailing list gta02-c...@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [gta02-core] Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
Am 11.05.2010 um 19:02 schrieb Michael Trimarchi: Hi, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 11.05.2010 um 17:50 schrieb Michael Trimarchi: Hi, RANJAN wrote: A really good idea.Looking forward to its release. R.Sriranjan On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: I don't know why it's usefull, sorry for the question. If you can give me a board that replace the gta02 board and I can reuse battery and display and keyboard, that's can be great but other type of solution change openmoko on a developement board Is there a place for a gumstix and a dougher board there? so remove it and connect a gumstix with a flat to a doughter with and umts modem. What do you think? I don't know if there is enough room inside the case for a Gumstix. But generally, the Gumstix and Beagleboard are quite similar from circuitry. Maybe, the connectors (Video, USB-OTG, SD-Card, 2nd USB) are much different. We didn't because we simply had more experience with the BeagleBoard and it costs less. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
