Community interest (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Hi all, I am one of those who bought a GTA04 out of both curiosity and a feeling of contributing to a project that, I feel, is important in many aspects. I have read many emails from the community but as you guys say, I have not done much more than contributing financially. the reason being that I do not have the technical skills required to help on the software or hardware sides. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. I would really like the phone to survive, I insist on that because it must be quite depressing for the developers to miss the positive feeback they deserve. however, when I discuss with colleagues or friends it is very hard for me to argue that an open source phone is a good thing that is worth spending money in if there is no well-known source to back me up. my feeling is that the community is not visible enough for lay persons, so it is hard to advertise the product. My suggestion to try and get out of this problem is to rise interest among the journalists. Global surveillance is a top story at the moment, so if we succeed in attracting the attention of, say, a BBC reporter then we can start making some noise on a large scale. And if the story is good it may attract many people and inform them why open-source phone is important, on the hardware side too. Another point that I would like to rise is the fact that mobile phones are considered as luxuary products by the consumers. Starting from this, I would suggest either to work on making a very nice finish for the casing (the plastic casing of the GTA02 looks very good) and for the software (animated backgrounds, or the likes...), or to start a trend on its own that would focus on highly personalised phones with make-your-own reprap casing and choose-your-own operating system (which is what the GTA04 seems to be, at least for me). I would personally go for the second option. With a couple of good reprappers and with a couple of working operating systems, you can make a nice web page to present all the options availables to the buyer so that each one can buy a specific combination of case, hardware and software. Making the website visually attractive and more interactive would probably contribute to getting more attention on that matter. Anyway, all I can give to the community for now are ideas and cheerings, I hope I am doing that well. Lionel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Hi Bob, Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote: Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? At present the community is beholden to a particular company which produces something the community depends on. No, the community does not depend on it. There is a company that feels itself a member of this community and has developed an offer everyone can accept or decline. That company has a monopoly on production within the community. No. It does not share the source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to designs. Yes. This is no difference to Openmoko, Inc. did since 2007. This is the same situation as a community that is beholden to a company producing proprietary software. No. The GTA04 is like proprietary hardware. No. For proprietary hardware you have no schematics, no clear identification of the components, some custom made components without any information, and no documentation which GPIO is doing what. We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. Yes. And the PDF is the source. You can run OCR and convert it into any format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More convenience? The Schematics and the component placement chart of the GTA02 - both as a printable PDF - were sufficient to design the GTA04 board... So it is not lack of information if nobody is picking up the GTA04 design... There is no shared repository containing the source files for the schematics or the PCB designs. Nobody can commit design fixes. Is this a requirement for FLOSS that you can commit anything directly to the original repository? Do you have commit access to the master branch of kernel.org? Anyways, you can make change proposals and there are others who sign off and accept your patches into the master if they fit into the project goal and fit to some design style and rules. So if you want something to be changed, please write me an e-mail (in natural language) with your patches. Or propose it here on this list. The community is not iterating the GTA04 design. The community is not working together to create a free phone. Instead, all we do is discuss and argue about one company's product. The community can help much better in other areas, e.g. marketing, spreading the word, software, etc. because high density PCB design needs a very specific type of knowledge that isn't widely available. And, the PCB must be 100% correct or even 100.00%. so it is better to have a very small team. A lot of people have come up with various ideas for modifications to the GTA04. Some of them simply require some soldering which is no problem. However, some require a redesign of the board. To my recollection, nobody has ever pointed out that this isn't possible unless Golden Delicious do it. The fact that only Golden Delicious can do it is bad. No. Because you can do it as well. You can start to learn how to design PCBs, aquire some PCB design tool, capture or convert the schematics, and make your own layout. Then, find someone who does production for you. Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs. Because designing such a difficile and miniaturized device is more challenging than the average hardware hacker is capable to do. I suggest that the community changes from consuming hardware designed and built by a single controlling entity to producing one or more Open Source Hardware³ phone designs which can be taken as a base, modified and manufactured by any party. For example, a board design could be used in the same fashion as the GTA04, as a replacement for GTA01/02 boards but could also be modified by the N900 community to provide an updated board for their phone. It is possible to design a board for that by the procedure descibed above. I suggest that Golden Delicious release the source files for the GTA04 board in order to assist this effort and act as a base for the first community phone design. Essentially you are mixing openness and modifiability of source and compiled binary. The source in such a hardware project is the schematics (which is open for the GTA04) and the compiled result is the PCB (which is not easily modifiable, even with proper tools). It is like you are asking an open source project to publish compiled binaries, before you call it open source. IMHO this is only convenience. Finally some more technical aspect: it is not easy to just modify the PCB to fit into an N900 case. You more or less have to redo the whole PCB layout process (i.e. the compilation), although the Schematics can be almost the same. So you virtually want to change
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:21 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham:
We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else.
Yes. And the PDF is the source.
I don't believe this is the case. I believe the PDF was compiled from
designs that came from other files. I don't believe your circuit
designs were written in the PDF language. If they came from other
files, the PDF is not the source, the other files are the source.
You can run OCR and convert it into any
format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More
convenience?
It's not so much about convenience. Let me quote the GPL 2:
The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
making modifications to it.
There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a
format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a
barrier to freedom. It can be abused.
Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about
convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people
take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to
make it more difficult? Why are you reluctant to release the source
files?
high density PCB design needs a very specific
type of knowledge that isn't widely available.
The specialisation of the knowledge required to work on phone designs
means that those with the knowledge will likely have high demands on
their time. That means that one should aim to make it as easy as
possible for them to get involved in the community. That means removing
barriers like having to create new PCB designs from the PDF schematics.
That means releasing the source files for the existing designs.
Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the
aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not
release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no
community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs.
Because designing such a difficile and miniaturized device is more challenging
than the average hardware hacker is capable to do.
So let's foster a community of above-average hardware hackers who are up
to the challenge. Golden Delicious can help foster such a community by
making the source files for the GTA04 available.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Friday, August 23, 2013 06:50:11 PM Lukas Märdian wrote: Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Hi, imo they are very nice and more attractive then current gta04.org. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Excuse me very much, I don't mean to offend anyone, I actually care about project a lot. I really appreciate the project and I would like to have a gta04 based device, probably tablet. It's just too expensive for me now. Recently I became a lucky owner of a freerunner, got one used, and need to tell, that I had a lot of problems both under SHR and QtMoko. I believe it's solvable. Unfortunately the device is not very useful because I cannot get stable connection to the internet to run pidgin, due to power management probably, also in recent SHR releases most of the time sim card don't get recognized. And I feel that n810 as mobile computer is more useable. That's why I would like to find a used openpandora, because it's open, and it's mobile computer. I don't need a phone, if I have jabber with ssl connection. Anyway, I just want to add, that indeed, if one needs to OCR a pdf, then it's more like reverse engineering, rather than source. It's of course arguable, but I don't see why don't share the actual source files? Why? On Sat, 24 Aug 2013, Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:21 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham: We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. Yes. And the PDF is the source. I don't believe this is the case. I believe the PDF was compiled from designs that came from other files. I don't believe your circuit designs were written in the PDF language. If they came from other files, the PDF is not the source, the other files are the source. You can run OCR and convert it into any format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More convenience? It's not so much about convenience. Let me quote the GPL 2: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:26 +, Bob Ham wrote:
Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about
convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people
take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to
make it more difficult?
I answered your questions about why I am taking part in this discussion.
I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
others create derivatives of the GTA04.
--
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham: There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a barrier to freedom. It can be abused. I don't understand that. The reason of open source is that you can rebuild the system if the original designer decides not to continue and maintain the system. For that you need the sources in some open way. A different story is that FSF did start some collaborative projects based on the GPL which of course needs people to be able to work on a common system as a team. Back to the GTA04, you have all you need in PDF format, i.e. you can maintain your GTA04 in any way you like. You are absolutely free to start to rebuild it from scratch or modify it. Nobody is stopping you from doing it. The licence for the PDF documents permits you to do it. So what is missing? I only see the convenience aspect. And regarding barriers, I rather think that asking people to install and learn the same schematics capture system that we use is an increased barrier over the current situation. The current mode of collaboration is that every e-mail telling some change request in plain language is welcome and will be translated to the required data format to produce a new PDF. This work is done by us - but what is bad about that? Only that you can't do it. I don't consider that as a problem. Neither for you nor for me. And as written somewhere else, there have been several proposals from the community that were included in the GTA04A3, A4 and A5 designs. So I still don't get the goal you are arguing for and how it improves the acceptance of the GTA04. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:26 +, Bob Ham wrote: Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to make it more difficult? I answered your questions about why I am taking part in this discussion. Yes, this were indeed good answers and I think if you just tell them others they might jump in and subscribe here. I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping others create derivatives of the GTA04. I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the past hours. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham:
There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work
into a
format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's
a
barrier to freedom. It can be abused.
I only see the convenience aspect.
You haven't addressed my question. I want to know why you want people
to start PCB designs from scratch rather than making use of your work.
Why do you think that convenience a bad thing?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:41, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham:
I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
others create derivatives of the GTA04.
I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in
the
past hours.
I see plenty of reasoning about why you think people should avoid
trying to create derivatives of the GTA04.
I see no reasoning about why, once a person has decided to create a
derivative, you want them to create PCB designs from scratch rather than
using your work as a base. This is the matter that my question is
concerned with.
--
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 20:42 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-24 18:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham: There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a barrier to freedom. It can be abused. I only see the convenience aspect. You haven't addressed my question. I want to know why you want people to start PCB designs from scratch rather than making use of your work. Why do you think that convenience a bad thing? Community means that you get something in return for your contribution into the community. In other words: because convenience has a price tag. Only your mother is giving you convenience for free... Or shorter: I am not an 100% altruist. Are you? Then, please donate all the money you have and will have to this project. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 20:49 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-24 18:41, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham: I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping others create derivatives of the GTA04. I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the past hours. I see plenty of reasoning about why you think people should avoid trying to create derivatives of the GTA04. I have never said that. I just say that you can do it based on the material (e.g. PDF) that is already available and I will *not* stop anybody from doing it. This is a completely different message, isn't it? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:53, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Only your mother is giving you convenience for free...
I find GNU to be overflowing with convenience.
--
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
For the GTA04 adapter board you are already distributing the files that Bob Ham is asking for (AFAICT - not an EE). http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/42/ The adapter board license (CC-BY-SA) is more friendly than the GTA04 board license (CC-BY-NC-SA). So I'm wondering about the difference between the two. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 22:08 schrieb Paul Wise: For the GTA04 adapter board you are already distributing the files that Bob Ham is asking for (AFAICT - not an EE). http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/42/ The adapter board license (CC-BY-SA) is more friendly than the GTA04 board license (CC-BY-NC-SA). So I'm wondering about the difference between the two. the idea is that anyone can even use the adaptor board blueprint even commercially to allow for the best widespread use. It will be dramatically modified anyways for a real product so there is no need to restrict it in any way. For the PDF the licence is NC. But note that this licence only includes the copyright of the document. Not the board. Like you can learn from a book and use the contents. NC because it requires any commercial use to contact us. Commercial use means that someone wants to copy parts e.g. into a textbook. This does not preclude any licence and use, but allows to think to ask for some charge for the benefit of the project. Hope this explains the reasons of the different licenses. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
Its not out of Production, but production is stopped
Err..
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote: Its not out of Production, but production is stopped Err.. What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light out of operation: is at the depot and nobody is caring about and knows if it is still operable If there is a better wording, please let me know and we can change it. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham:
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
Compare with a train:
stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
El día Friday, August 23, 2013 a las 10:10:58AM +, Bob Ham escribió: stopped? Concerning stop, can we please stop this SPAM? If you (Bob) have a proposal, how to continue, put it on the table and let's discuss this. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:47:14AM +, Bob Ham wrote: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:47 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? green light: close to 200 preorders or wishlist entries in the shop. It is like a train (without fixed schedule) waiting at the station for enough paying passengers. Not people just visiting or looking or discussing that the train should run on a different track. Yes, a vintage train is perhaps a good comparison with our GTA04. It costs a lot of money and volunteer work to keep it in operation at a very irregular schedule. And it is more for fun than for real transportation so that passengers pay twice or three times a ticket would cost for the same distance in a modern and more comfortable train. And having a fixed schedule. But 99% of the world population would never see a benefit in riding a vintage train to go from A to B, e.g. for going to daily work. Which is similar to our situation that 99,99% of the world population doesn't see a benefit or an impulse to buy a 100% open device or a community built hardware or an Überphone (which is what the Ubuntu Edge campaign has clearly demonstrated). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going
to cause the green light to go on?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. How would you change the mindset of people without brain-washing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to
be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's
going to cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
--
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Kardan -- Kardan kar...@riseup.net Encrypt your email: http://gnupg.org/documentation Public GPG key 9D6108AE58C06558 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr: F72F C4D9 6A52 16A1 E7C9 AE94 9D61 08AE 58C0 6558 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I have mixed feeling about basing our media presence on Openmoko project. While we know that Openmoko did amazing job pioneering with freeing mobile phones, and personally I'm still big fan of the project and I like how OpenPhoenux goes back to its roots, general public just associates it with failure (provided that they know what Openmoko is at the first place). We know (to some extend) what was the reason (or reasons) of Openmoko failure, they don't. They only got clear message: open/free phone is utopia, Openmoko tried it and failed, we have to go for something that's free enough and for many, Android, Ubuntu or Firefox OS phones are free enough. Especially when you add price into the account - it makes them even more enough. People should know the difference. People should know that free phone *is* possible. It may not be as free as RMS would like it to be, but seeing how many people consider Android good enough, we're still at better position. We just have to tell people what's the difference, and do that in a way even non-techie would understand (or just give him/her an impression of understanding ;)). They should be also aware why price is so high and how can it be lowered. I don't think there is some universal source we may refer people to and I'm tired of everyone repeating the same questions again and again when I mention GTA04 in slashdot comments or anywhere else. If they are not aware what GTA04 can give them, they never won't pay for it when there's such a difference in price. Well, I know it's easy to tell we should do this, we should do that and it's harder to actually start doing that, but I hope I'll be able to show you something soon. It's high time to be useful to this community once again! :) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Hi What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? branding. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters What should be the message of such posters? nobody on this list can answer that. we're not *that* type of people. you need input from outside. $2c, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 17:05 schrieb kardan: On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. I would consider 20k backers of the Ubuntu Edge not as a lot. Please calculate what 300 million smartphones (mostly iOS and Android) sold per year means to be sold per hour. That is a lot. And, the Ubuntu Edge did not have the same targets as anyone of us has. Rather, they did not even care much about openness and freedom. Their key goal is about convergence between computer and smartphone and to catch attention by Über-features. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Which threshold? The 32 million USD? Well, they have to solve the same issue that we have: building a lower number of units (which a lower threshold would imply) increases component and production cost. I.e. if they had set the limit at 12 Mio they would have had to increase the price to 795 USD. At 795 USD they would have reached 8 Mio only. So they would have had to set the price at 895 USD. etc. I don't think the threshold was just some arbitrary value. It was based on the economics inside the production process. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Well, what could we have done? How could we have changed their campain? No, I think we can only learn from the outcome of their campaign, which we are currently discussion if I remember the starting point correctly... Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Because it is not a device for the general public, but nerds. You can't advertize meat to a vegetarian. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. What should be the message of such posters? -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 17:05, schrieb kardan: Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Regards, Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
could everybody please stop answering without checking and fixing the damn subject?! THANKS! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being
available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to
cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
What do you think the reason is?
I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that
decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said
you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you
waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide
to spend money on the GTA04?
I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light
waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri 23 August 2013 22:45:05 Bob Ham wrote: I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. So WHAT? What's your point??? Waiting is a sustainable and valid state. When you can't see any reason then why do you insist in any sort of answer from somebody else? I don't think we owe you something. Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? Instead you perpetuate this moot arguing about if there's sth that can be done or if it's reasonable or even allowable to *wait* for 200 preorders, instead of simply declaring the whole thing out of production or discontinued as you seem to insist it is. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On the Road --- hns Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham r...@settrans.net: On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this discussion? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even
better - real actions that would help?
At present the community is beholden to a particular company which
produces something the community depends on. That company has a
monopoly on production within the community. It does not share the
source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to
designs.
This is the same situation as a community that is beholden to a company
producing proprietary software. The GTA04 is like proprietary hardware.
We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. There is no shared
repository containing the source files for the schematics or the PCB
designs. Nobody can commit design fixes. The community is not
iterating the GTA04 design. The community is not working together to
create a free phone. Instead, all we do is discuss and argue about one
company's product.
A lot of people have come up with various ideas for modifications to the
GTA04. Some of them simply require some soldering which is no problem.
However, some require a redesign of the board. To my recollection,
nobody has ever pointed out that this isn't possible unless Golden
Delicious do it. The fact that only Golden Delicious can do it is bad.
Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the
aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not
release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no
community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs.
I suggest that the community changes from consuming hardware designed
and built by a single controlling entity to producing one or more Open
Source Hardware³ phone designs which can be taken as a base, modified
and manufactured by any party. For example, a board design could be
used in the same fashion as the GTA04, as a replacement for GTA01/02
boards but could also be modified by the N900 community to provide an
updated board for their phone.
I suggest that Golden Delicious release the source files for the GTA04
board in order to assist this effort and act as a base for the first
community phone design.
¹ http://www.openphoenux.org/
² http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2013-May/000324.html
³ http://www.ohanda.org/
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat 24 August 2013 02:10:55 Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote: Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? At present the community is beholden to a particular company which produces something the community depends on. That company has a monopoly on production within the community. It does not share the source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to designs. stopped reading here, since obvious BS. Get your facts sorted! Stop spamming! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
