Re: GSM power management improvements

[joerg Reisenweber]

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 02:27:10 CET Mychaela Falconia wrote:
> Hello what's left of Openmoko community,
> 
> If there is anyone still using their FreeRunner (or GTA01) as a phone
> with working GSM (perhaps on a private island whose owner likes GSM
> and is committed to keeping it forever), there is a modem firmware
> update which you might find interesting:
> 
> ftp://ftp.freecalypso.org/pub/GSM/GTA02/gsm-fw/moko-new-fw-20190128.tar.bz2
> 
> The primary diff from previous versions consists of a couple of sleep
> mode improvements, i.e., improved ability to go into sleep modes which
> draw less power from the battery:
> 
> * During those time windows in which the modem is disallowed from going
> into deep sleep by the UART activity timer (10 s after each transmission
> from the AP host to the modem on the AT command UART), previous fw
> versions needlessly suppressed big sleep in addition to deep sleep,
> allowing only small sleep.  The present version goes into big sleep
> during these time windows, saving more power.
> 
> * Some Openmoko devices suffer from a hardware defect that requires
> disabling deep sleep - the infamous bug #1024.  Previous fw versions
> did not provide a sleep mode configuration that allows big and small
> sleep, but not deep sleep, forcing the user to choose between small
> sleep only or big sleep only on no-deep-sleep hardware.  OM AP software
> distros have been using the big sleep only AT%SLEEP=2 config in these
> circumstances.  Our new fw offers a new AT%SLEEP=5 option that allows
> big and small sleep, but not deep sleep, which should be ideal for
> deep-sleep-deprived OM hardware.  The default is still AT%SLEEP=4
> allowing all 3 sleep modes (small, big and deep sleep), just like
> before.
> 
> * Most of the Calypso chip's GPIO and multifunction pins are unused
> and unconnected on Openmoko devices.  All fw versions for this modem
> released prior to 2017, including all legacy mokoN versions produced
> by the now-defunct original manufacturer of the hw, contain a bug in
> this regard: they configure many of these unused and unconnected GPIO
> and multifunction pins as inputs, causing them to float.  The general
> dictum in digital hw design is that CMOS floating inputs are bad, and
> they can sometimes cause increased power draw as a result of current
> flowing through both transistors of the CMOS input structure when they
> are partially open.  This bug has been fixed in the newer FreeCalypso
> fw releases since 2017: the correct way to handle unused and unconnected
> GPIO and multifunction pins is to configure them as dummy outputs with
> a constant value, which is what our current fw does.
> 
> This new firmware release is brought to you by Falconia Partners LLC,
> a manufacturer of new cellular modems under the FreeCalypso brand,
> currently for GSM/2G but perhaps some day for UMTS/3G as well.  At the
> present time we don't do any work specifically for legacy Openmoko
> devices (there is no business case for it), but our own modem product
> is very similar to OM's, thus whenever we make significant improvements
> to the firmware for our own modem hw, it costs us nothing to compile
> and put out a new fw image for Openmoko's old modem as well.
> 
> Please note, however, that even though our new FreeCalypso modem hw is
> very similar to OM's old modem, it is not identical, and the firmware
> images built for the two respective targets are NOT interchangeable!
> We build all of them from the same source tree, thus functional
> improvements made for one target automatically benefit the others as
> well, but a few hardware configuration and external interface bits are
> conditionally compiled.  If you take a firmware image built for our
> FCDEV3B and flash it into an Openmoko device, it may corrupt your FFS,
> so don't do it - please be sure to only flash fw images which were
> built specifically for whichever hardware you have.
> 
> Happy 2019, and enjoy improved power management in the modem if you
> still have a free-running Openmoko device.
> 
> M~
> 
> P.S. In case anyone is concerned about the legality and safety of
> using new GSM products from Falconia Partners LLC, whether our new hw
> or our new fw for legacy hw from OM, please note that the products in
> question (both hw and fw) have been extensively used on public
> commercial GSM networks in several countries (at least USA, Canada,
> Austria, France and South Africa to my knowledge, plus maybe others I
> don't know about) over the course of many years now, without a single
> problematic incident anywhere ever.  Getting an official stamp of
> regulatory approval is definitely in the plans, but no

GSM power management improvements

[Mychaela Falconia]

Hello what's left of Openmoko community,

If there is anyone still using their FreeRunner (or GTA01) as a phone
with working GSM (perhaps on a private island whose owner likes GSM
and is committed to keeping it forever), there is a modem firmware
update which you might find interesting:

ftp://ftp.freecalypso.org/pub/GSM/GTA02/gsm-fw/moko-new-fw-20190128.tar.bz2

The primary diff from previous versions consists of a couple of sleep
mode improvements, i.e., improved ability to go into sleep modes which
draw less power from the battery:

* During those time windows in which the modem is disallowed from going
into deep sleep by the UART activity timer (10 s after each transmission
from the AP host to the modem on the AT command UART), previous fw
versions needlessly suppressed big sleep in addition to deep sleep,
allowing only small sleep.  The present version goes into big sleep
during these time windows, saving more power.

* Some Openmoko devices suffer from a hardware defect that requires
disabling deep sleep - the infamous bug #1024.  Previous fw versions
did not provide a sleep mode configuration that allows big and small
sleep, but not deep sleep, forcing the user to choose between small
sleep only or big sleep only on no-deep-sleep hardware.  OM AP software
distros have been using the big sleep only AT%SLEEP=2 config in these
circumstances.  Our new fw offers a new AT%SLEEP=5 option that allows
big and small sleep, but not deep sleep, which should be ideal for
deep-sleep-deprived OM hardware.  The default is still AT%SLEEP=4
allowing all 3 sleep modes (small, big and deep sleep), just like
before.

* Most of the Calypso chip's GPIO and multifunction pins are unused
and unconnected on Openmoko devices.  All fw versions for this modem
released prior to 2017, including all legacy mokoN versions produced
by the now-defunct original manufacturer of the hw, contain a bug in
this regard: they configure many of these unused and unconnected GPIO
and multifunction pins as inputs, causing them to float.  The general
dictum in digital hw design is that CMOS floating inputs are bad, and
they can sometimes cause increased power draw as a result of current
flowing through both transistors of the CMOS input structure when they
are partially open.  This bug has been fixed in the newer FreeCalypso
fw releases since 2017: the correct way to handle unused and unconnected
GPIO and multifunction pins is to configure them as dummy outputs with
a constant value, which is what our current fw does.

This new firmware release is brought to you by Falconia Partners LLC,
a manufacturer of new cellular modems under the FreeCalypso brand,
currently for GSM/2G but perhaps some day for UMTS/3G as well.  At the
present time we don't do any work specifically for legacy Openmoko
devices (there is no business case for it), but our own modem product
is very similar to OM's, thus whenever we make significant improvements
to the firmware for our own modem hw, it costs us nothing to compile
and put out a new fw image for Openmoko's old modem as well.

Please note, however, that even though our new FreeCalypso modem hw is
very similar to OM's old modem, it is not identical, and the firmware
images built for the two respective targets are NOT interchangeable!
We build all of them from the same source tree, thus functional
improvements made for one target automatically benefit the others as
well, but a few hardware configuration and external interface bits are
conditionally compiled.  If you take a firmware image built for our
FCDEV3B and flash it into an Openmoko device, it may corrupt your FFS,
so don't do it - please be sure to only flash fw images which were
built specifically for whichever hardware you have.

Happy 2019, and enjoy improved power management in the modem if you
still have a free-running Openmoko device.

M~

P.S. In case anyone is concerned about the legality and safety of
using new GSM products from Falconia Partners LLC, whether our new hw
or our new fw for legacy hw from OM, please note that the products in
question (both hw and fw) have been extensively used on public
commercial GSM networks in several countries (at least USA, Canada,
Austria, France and South Africa to my knowledge, plus maybe others I
don't know about) over the course of many years now, without a single
problematic incident anywhere ever.  Getting an official stamp of
regulatory approval is definitely in the plans, but no one has paid
for it yet.  In the meantime, despite having no official rubber stamp
that says so, we already know with almost 100% certainty that our
products (both hw and fw) function 100% correctly on the air, fully
compliant with all of the relevant technical standards.

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Adrien Dorsaz]

Thanks for the tip, I'll try it too.

I've just opened the file and it's so clear how to modify it, I think
that QtMoko is really a good OS and I'm surprised that Nokia stop its
development.

Adrien

Le vendredi 20 décembre 2013 à 00:06 +0100, Francesco De Vita a écrit :
> > So the question is : is it possible to have button order as below
> > when the call is answered ?
> > 
> > --
> > | Hold | Hang up |
> > --
> > 
> > So, if I touch twice the "Answer" button, I just hold the call and
> > I'll be able to take it back easier.
> Maybe you can simply switch their positions, take a look at
> /opt/qtmoko/etc/themes/mokofaen/callscreen.xml lines 108-129.
> And it is not a bad idea, because the actual positions of the Hang up
> button are inconsistent: if you're receiving a call the Hang Up is on
> the right, but if you're in a call it is on the left.
> Well, I'll try it myself tomorrow! ;)
> 
> Joif
> 
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Francesco De Vita]

> So the question is : is it possible to have button order as below
> when the call is answered ?
> 
> --
> | Hold | Hang up |
> --
> 
> So, if I touch twice the "Answer" button, I just hold the call and
> I'll be able to take it back easier.
Maybe you can simply switch their positions, take a look at
/opt/qtmoko/etc/themes/mokofaen/callscreen.xml lines 108-129.
And it is not a bad idea, because the actual positions of the Hang up
button are inconsistent: if you're receiving a call the Hang Up is on
the right, but if you're in a call it is on the left.
Well, I'll try it myself tomorrow! ;)

Joif

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Dominic Walden]

Radek Polak  writes:
> Hi,
> the update interval is now as often as uevents are comming from linux kernel. 
> You can enable logging->power management and check in log how often it is - i 
> think it could be those 20s.

Between two log entries of the form: "battery change event charge%= n%"
is about 1 minute.

Nevertheless, I think that will be fine if it updates regardless when
coming out of suspend (so you can take it out of suspend, check the
battery level, and put it back in suspend).

Thanks,

Dominic

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Adrien Dorsaz]

Hello,

Thanks for this new version, I hope that a lot of Neo will be still used
over years with your work ;)


Le jeudi 12 décembre 2013 à 10:09 +0100, Radek Polak a écrit :

Hi,




* show end call button after 2s to avoid unwanted press


I understand well the issue and I've another proposition to fix this
bug :

Currently we have these buttons int this order when a call comes :

---
| Answer | Reject |
---

And then, when the call was answered, we've these buttons :

--
| Hang up | Hold |
--

With the "Hang up" button looking exactly as the "Reject" button.

I want to suggest instead of adding a timer (or having both solutions)
to not switch the place of the "Reject/Hang up" button when the call is
hung up.

So the question is : is it possible to have button order as below
when the call is answered ?

--
| Hold | Hang up |
--

So, if I touch twice the "Answer" button, I just hold the call and
I'll be able to take it back easier.

Thanks again and best regards !
Adrien



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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[joerg Reisenweber]

On Thu 19 December 2013 08:21:54 Radek Polak wrote:
> the update interval is now as often as uevents are comming from linux
> kernel.  You can enable logging->power management and check in log how
> often it is - i think it could be those 20s.
> 
> > Is there a way of increasing the frequency, and making it work "in the
> > background" while the phone is in suspend?
> 
> AFAIK the battery charge is updated even when phone is suspended - the chip
> in  battery does this.
> 
> Maybe we could force QtMoko to read it immediately after leaving suspend.
> The  values should be fresh. I can check if it's easily doable.

Yes, the chip does "gapfree" battery monitoring in GTA02-battery. Since FIQ 
needed to read out the (bq27x00 chip in) battery is kinda heavy, it makes 
sense to not update it too often. Also battery doesn't change that fast to 
make sense when updating more frequently, actually I think 20s is pretty 
frequent already.
However an update cycle scheduled immediately after resume should be easily 
feasible and is the "right thing[TM]" to do :-)
Maybe an even smarter way to handle all related issues would be to trigger a 
battery chip readout and update the battery gauge display whenever the display 
becomes "visible" - X11 should be able to send an according signal, I think. 
This would as well support up-to-date displayed values after closing a 
fullscreen app and after unblanking the screen.

cheers
jOERG
-- 
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/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
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http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 04:28:56 PM Dominic Walden wrote:

> Thanks Radek,
> 
> I've been using the Freerunner as my primary (in fact only) mobile
> phone for about 2 years now, thanks in no small part to QtMoko.
> 
> One question. Is it just me or is the battery capacity monitor not
> updated frequently enough, and not at all during suspend? For example,
> taking the phone out of suspend you have to wait 20-30 seconds before
> it shows you you've lost a "bar" of power.

Hi,
the update interval is now as often as uevents are comming from linux kernel. 
You can enable logging->power management and check in log how often it is - i 
think it could be those 20s.

> Is there a way of increasing the frequency, and making it work "in the
> background" while the phone is in suspend?

AFAIK the battery charge is updated even when phone is suspended - the chip in 
battery does this.

Maybe we could force QtMoko to read it immediately after leaving suspend. The 
values should be fresh. I can check if it's easily doable.

> Thanks again, and keep up the good work.

Nice to hear that it works for you.

Radek
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Dominic Walden]

Thanks Radek,

I've been using the Freerunner as my primary (in fact only) mobile
phone for about 2 years now, thanks in no small part to QtMoko.

One question. Is it just me or is the battery capacity monitor not
updated frequently enough, and not at all during suspend? For example,
taking the phone out of suspend you have to wait 20-30 seconds before
it shows you you've lost a "bar" of power.

Is there a way of increasing the frequency, and making it work "in the
background" while the phone is in suspend?

Thanks again, and keep up the good work.

Dominic

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Friday, December 13, 2013 01:03:07 AM Ben Wong wrote:

> Thanks for the update, Radek and Paul! I'm downloading v58 now and
> looking forward to having a stable system.
> 
> By the way, I'm glad to see two big user interface bugaboos for me
> (vibration when resuming and hanging up when hitting "answer" twice)
> have been fixed. I think my only other bothersome bug is the way the
> Terminal interacts with the onscreen keyboard; almost always when
> switching applications the keyboard disappears and so does the button
> for showing the keyboard! I have to close the app and restart it to
> get a keyboard again. (Alternately, I can use one of the themes, like
> Finxi, that have a "toggle keyboard" icon builtin, but I prefer the
> look of Mokofaen.)

Hi,
i have noticed it too and i looked several times in code, but i havent found 
anything obviously wrong. But it should be possible to workaround it - if you 
edit the theme's context.xml and make the toggle keyborad button always 
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Ben Wong]

Thanks for the update, Radek and Paul! I'm downloading v58 now and
looking forward to having a stable system.

By the way, I'm glad to see two big user interface bugaboos for me
(vibration when resuming and hanging up when hitting "answer" twice)
have been fixed. I think my only other bothersome bug is the way the
Terminal interacts with the onscreen keyboard; almost always when
switching applications the keyboard disappears and so does the button
for showing the keyboard! I have to close the app and restart it to
get a keyboard again. (Alternately, I can use one of the themes, like
Finxi, that have a "toggle keyboard" icon builtin, but I prefer the
look of Mokofaen.)

—B

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Radek Polak  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit
> our homepage [2] for more info.
>
>
>
> Here is list of changes since last Freerunner release:
>
>
>
> * gta02 kernel upgrade to 2.6.39
>
> * hack to stop vibrating after resume
>
> * show end call button after 2s to avoid unwanted press
>
> * improved colors in qmplayer encoding
>
> * better name of encoded movie in qmplayer
>
> * using emdebian for some packages
>
> * using glamo-mplayer as package
>
> * suspend in locked screen is now after 3s
>
> * accelerometers are now in module and disabled by default (see below)
>
>
>
> 99% of the credit for this release goes to Paul Ferster. He managed to find
> the suspend/resume problem and finally after years we have stable kernel.
> Many thanks!
>
>
>
> As a side effect while playing with the new kernel i have discovered power
> management bug in lis302dl (accelerometer) driver. The module seems to eat
> ~6mA in suspend. So by default the module is now not loaded and
> accelerometers are not working. On the other side, the current in suspend is
> now between 4..6mA which gives ~200 hours in standby! If you want to use
> accels you do:
>
>
>
> echo lis302dl >> /etc/modules
>
> echo joydev >> /etc/modules
>
>
>
> As for the other changes. I plan to start using Freerunner as my daily phone
> now so i had to fix one old problem. When i answered phone call i often
> accidentaly pressed the "Accept call" button twice. After first press the
> button changed to "End call" and the second press ended the call
> immediately. This is now fix and there is 2s interval where second press is
> ignored.
>
>
>
> Another problem noticed was that sometimes the phone would start vibrating
> after resume. So there is now hack that stops vibrations after each resume.
>
>
>
> Another nice thing is that i am now using emdebian and i have rebuild a few
> packages with useless python dependencies. The result is that tarbal size
> went from 161MB -> 88MB and ubifs 146MB -> 102MB.
>
>
>
> So if you are still using Freerunner i hope it can work for you nicely.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Radek
>
>
>
>
>
> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems it's
> not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...
>
>
>
>
>
> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/qtmoko/files/GTA02/
>
> [2] http://qtmoko.sourceforge.net/
>
>
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Francesco De Vita]

Sorry for the previous message, it seems that I'm not able to boot any
more from NAND :(

> Ehr... I have these ugly errors during the boot:
> 
> UBI error: process_eb: bad image sequence number 1588845893 in PEB 1971,
> epxected 1933142073
> slab error in kmem_cache_destroy(): cache `ubi_scan_slab': Can't free
> all objects
> UBI error: ubi_init: cannot attach mtd6
> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on
> unknown-block(0,0)
> [] (unwind_backtrace+0x0/0xf0) from []
> (panic+0x58/0x174)
> [] (panic+0x58/0x174) from []
> (mount_block_root+0x1d4/0x294)
> [] (mount_block_root+0x1d4/0x294) from []
> (prepare_namespace+0x8c/0x1c8)
> [] (prepare_namespace+0x8c/0x1c8) from []
> (kernel_init+0xfc/0x130)
> [] (kernel_init+0xfc/0x130) from []
> (kernel_thread_exit+0x0/0x8)







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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Francesco De Vita]

Ehr... I have these ugly errors during the boot:

UBI error: process_eb: bad image sequence number 1588845893 in PEB 1971,
epxected 1933142073
slab error in kmem_cache_destroy(): cache `ubi_scan_slab': Can't free
all objects
UBI error: ubi_init: cannot attach mtd6
Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on
unknown-block(0,0)
[] (unwind_backtrace+0x0/0xf0) from []
(panic+0x58/0x174)
[] (panic+0x58/0x174) from []
(mount_block_root+0x1d4/0x294)
[] (mount_block_root+0x1d4/0x294) from []
(prepare_namespace+0x8c/0x1c8)
[] (prepare_namespace+0x8c/0x1c8) from []
(kernel_init+0xfc/0x130)
[] (kernel_init+0xfc/0x130) from []
(kernel_thread_exit+0x0/0x8)

I reflashed the v55 and there is not such issue.

Regards
Joif

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Christ van Willegen]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Radek Polak  wrote:
> Hmm interesting idea - IIRC we have lis302dl on GTA04 too. It would be worth
> trying if they eat power on GTA04 too...

6mA is a lot...

Christ van Willegen
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 02:58:47 PM Guilhem Bonnefille wrote:

> Something you certainly tried, but I ask the question: did you try to
> automatically unload/reload module when going to suspend mode?
> I remember there is such framework around suspend/hibernate framework:
> simply list modules somewhere and they are automagically unloaded when
> goind to suspend mode and restored when resuming.

Hi,
yup tried, but this does not work. Once you load lis302dl the power remains 
high even after you rmmod it. It should not be hard to find and fix the 
driver. I am hoping someone will do it ;-)

Hmm interesting idea - IIRC we have lis302dl on GTA04 too. It would be worth 
trying if they eat power on GTA04 too...

BR

Radek
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Rico Rommel]

Am Donnerstag, 12. Dezember 2013, 10:09:19 schrieb Radek Polak:

> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems it's
> not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...

As I remember, if the GTA02 got no fix, I had to boot u-boot from NOR and after 
a reboot everything worked fine. I don't even had to load a kernel from NOR, 
simply power on and off.

Rico

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Guilhem Bonnefille]

2013/12/12 Radek Polak 

>  Hi,
>
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit
> our homepage [2] for more info.
>

Nice! Many thanks, I will give it a try ASAP.


> [cut]
>
> As a side effect while playing with the new kernel i have discovered power
> management bug in lis302dl (accelerometer) driver. The module seems to eat
> ~6mA in suspend. So by default the module is now not loaded and
> accelerometers are not working. On the other side, the current in suspend
> is now between 4..6mA which gives ~200 hours in standby! If you want to use
> accels you do:
>
>
>
> echo lis302dl >> /etc/modules
>
> echo joydev >> /etc/modules
>

Something you certainly tried, but I ask the question: did you try to
automatically unload/reload module when going to suspend mode?
I remember there is such framework around suspend/hibernate framework:
simply list modules somewhere and they are automagically unloaded when
goind to suspend mode and restored when resuming.


> [cut]
>
>
>
>
>
> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems
> it's not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...
>
>
>
I will try, as my only plans for freerunner are around a GPS "evolved"
device.

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Giacomo 'giotti' Mariani]

On 12/12/2013 10:54 AM, Patryk Benderz wrote:
> On czw, 2013-12-12 at 10:09 +0100, Radek Polak wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and
>> visit our homepage [2] for more info.
> Many thanks Radek!
>
> [cut]
>> 99% of the credit for this release goes to Paul Ferster. He managed to
>> find the suspend/resume problem and finally after years we have stable
>> kernel. Many thanks!
> Thank you Paul!
>
Thanks a lot!

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:09:19 AM Radek Polak wrote:

> So if you are still using Freerunner i hope it can work for you nicely.

Hmm it seems that automatic suspending is not working as expected (but using 
lock and POWER button works welll). I hope to fix and release update soon. 
More bug reports are welcome :)

BR

Radek
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:54:41 AM Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

> Some knowledge from GTA02 service:
> 
> a) the U.FL-cable of the GPS antenna module can easily be broken (where it
> is soldered to the GPS antenna module PCB) b) there is no capacitor on the
> MMC clock line (this results in 63*25 MHz noise) - was fixed in factory on
> A6 and A7 boards

Hi,
i tried the antenna on GTA04 board and it worked perfectly. I have the MMC 
capacitor soldered, maybe it stopped working?

> Does it work with an external antenna?

Unfortunately i dont have one to try...

BR

Radek
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:47:41 AM Ed Kapitein wrote:

> Hi Radek,
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> i am still on the old 2.6.29 kernel ;-)
> Will try it out soon.
> 
> Can you tell a bit more about your GPS problem?
> Is there no output coming from cat /dev/ttySAC1 ?
> Does it work with the older kernels?

I tried qtmoko v26 - very old one which had GPS 100% working and no luck. I 
can see nmea comming using gpsmon, it just does not get fix. I talked to Paul 
Ferseter on IRC and he has the same problem. He said he could get fix when 
using GPS amplifier.

Regards

Radek

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:02:47 AM Neal H. Walfield wrote:

> To what degree are you still working on qtmoko for gta04?  Will there
> be a release of v58 for the gta04?

I have recently adapted it to Neil Brown's latest 3.7 kernels - so there are 
some improvements in charging on kernel level and probably some users space 
fixes. I can do v58 for GTA04 too. It could benefit from the GTA02 changes too 
- smaller tarball, answer button etc... But most likely i will get to it 
during xmas.

BR

Radek
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Neal H. Walfield]

Hi,

At Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:09:19 +0100,
Radek Polak wrote:
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit our 
> homepage [2] for more info.
> ...
> 
> As for the other changes. I plan to start using Freerunner as my daily phone 

To what degree are you still working on qtmoko for gta04?  Will there
be a release of v58 for the gta04?

Thanks for the great work!

Neal

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Radek,

Am 12.12.2013 um 10:09 schrieb Radek Polak:

> Hi,
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit our 
> homepage [2] for more info.

+++

> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems it's 
> not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...

Some knowledge from GTA02 service:

a) the U.FL-cable of the GPS antenna module can easily be broken (where it is 
soldered to the GPS antenna module PCB)
b) there is no capacitor on the MMC clock line (this results in 63*25 MHz 
noise) - was fixed in factory on A6 and A7 boards

Does it work with an external antenna?

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Patryk Benderz]

On czw, 2013-12-12 at 10:09 +0100, Radek Polak wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and
> visit our homepage [2] for more info.
Many thanks Radek!

[cut]
> 99% of the credit for this release goes to Paul Ferster. He managed to
> find the suspend/resume problem and finally after years we have stable
> kernel. Many thanks!
Thank you Paul!

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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Ed Kapitein]

Hi Radek,

Thanks a lot!

i am still on the old 2.6.29 kernel ;-)
Will try it out soon.

Can you tell a bit more about your GPS problem?
Is there no output coming from cat /dev/ttySAC1 ?
Does it work with the older kernels?

I m not running qtmoko and the gps is runing fine.

Kind regards,
Ed

On Thu, 2013-12-12 at 10:09 +0100, Radek Polak wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and
> visit our homepage [2] for more info.
> 
>  
> 
> Here is list of changes since last Freerunner release:
> 
>  
> 
> * gta02 kernel upgrade to 2.6.39
> 
> * hack to stop vibrating after resume
> 
> * show end call button after 2s to avoid unwanted press
> 
> * improved colors in qmplayer encoding
> 
> * better name of encoded movie in qmplayer
> 
> * using emdebian for some packages
> 
> * using glamo-mplayer as package
> 
> * suspend in locked screen is now after 3s
> 
> * accelerometers are now in module and disabled by default (see below)
> 
>  
> 
> 99% of the credit for this release goes to Paul Ferster. He managed to
> find the suspend/resume problem and finally after years we have stable
> kernel. Many thanks!
> 
>  
> 
> As a side effect while playing with the new kernel i have discovered
> power management bug in lis302dl (accelerometer) driver. The module
> seems to eat ~6mA in suspend. So by default the module is now not
> loaded and accelerometers are not working. On the other side, the
> current in suspend is now between 4..6mA which gives ~200 hours in
> standby! If you want to use accels you do:
> 
>  
> 
> echo lis302dl >> /etc/modules
> 
> echo joydev >> /etc/modules
> 
>  
> 
> As for the other changes. I plan to start using Freerunner as my daily
> phone now so i had to fix one old problem. When i answered phone call
> i often accidentaly pressed the "Accept call" button twice. After
> first press the button changed to "End call" and the second press
> ended the call immediately. This is now fix and there is 2s interval
> where second press is ignored.
> 
>  
> 
> Another problem noticed was that sometimes the phone would start
> vibrating after resume. So there is now hack that stops vibrations
> after each resume.
> 
>  
> 
> Another nice thing is that i am now using emdebian and i have rebuild
> a few packages with useless python dependencies. The result is that
> tarbal size went from 161MB -> 88MB and ubifs 146MB -> 102MB.
> 
>  
> 
> So if you are still using Freerunner i hope it can work for you
> nicely.
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers
> 
>  
> 
> Radek
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it
> seems it's not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working
> again...
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/qtmoko/files/GTA02/
> 
> [2] http://qtmoko.sourceforge.net/
> 
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Davide Scaini]

Wow!
I'll get my freerunner out of the box (I don't like it taking dust on
a shelf ;) )
d

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Francesco De Vita
 wrote:
> Awesome! great job! I'll try it out immediately (:
>
> Thank you guys!
>
> Joif
>
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Francesco De Vita]

Awesome! great job! I'll try it out immediately (:

Thank you guys!

Joif

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QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Radek Polak]

Hi,
QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit our 
homepage [2] for more info.

Here is list of changes since last Freerunner release:

  * gta02 kernel upgrade to 2.6.39
  * hack to stop vibrating after resume
  * show end call button after 2s to avoid unwanted press
  * improved colors in qmplayer encoding
  * better name of encoded movie in qmplayer
  * using emdebian for some packages
  * using glamo-mplayer as package
  * suspend in locked screen is now after 3s
  * accelerometers are now in module and disabled by default (see below)

99% of the credit for this release goes to Paul Ferster. He managed to find 
the suspend/resume problem and finally after years we have stable kernel. Many 
thanks!

As a side effect while playing with the new kernel i have discovered power 
management bug in lis302dl (accelerometer) driver. The module seems to eat 
~6mA in suspend. So by default the module is now not loaded and accelerometers 
are not working. On the other side, the current in suspend is now between 
4..6mA which gives ~200 hours in standby! If you want to use accels you do:

echo lis302dl >> /etc/modules
echo joydev >> /etc/modules

As for the other changes. I plan to start using Freerunner as my daily phone 
now so i had to fix one old problem. When i answered phone call i often 
accidentaly pressed the "Accept call" button twice. After first press the 
button changed to "End call" and the second press ended the call immediately. 
This is now fix and there is 2s interval where second press is ignored.

Another problem noticed was that sometimes the phone would start vibrating 
after resume. So there is now hack that stops vibrations after each resume.

Another nice thing is that i am now using emdebian and i have rebuild a few 
packages with useless python dependencies. The result is that tarbal size went 
from 161MB -> 88MB and ubifs 146MB -> 102MB.

So if you are still using Freerunner i hope it can work for you nicely.

Cheers

Radek


Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems it's 
not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...


[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/qtmoko/files/GTA02/
[2] http://qtmoko.sourceforge.net/
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Re: FreeRunner Navigation Board v3 - Power management

[Christoph Mair]

Am Sonntag 22 Mai 2011, 11:44:24 schrieben Sie:
> Hi,
> 
> 2011/5/21 Christoph Mair :
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Am Samstag 21 Mai 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Martix:
> >> How much of power Navigation Board v3 consume, both in operational
> >> state (all sensors are active) and in idle state (all sensors are
> >> powered down)? Can I power down whole board from software?
> > 
> > All sensors support a sleep state which reduces power consumption fo a
> > few µA. I will add exact numbers to the wiki page. The sleep state is
> > activated automatically after power-on. Therefore you have to talk to
> > the sensor to activate it. The only exception is the gyroscope ITG-3200.
> > This sensor needs the kernel module which will switch it of immediately
> > after the module was loaded. If you forget to do this, it will consume
> > about 6mA, IIRC.
See 
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3#Power_consumption

> >> could be board VCC connected somehow to the PMU (PCF50633)? Perhaps,
> >> Navigation Board could use free power line from PMU, if it's available
> >> or share power line with one accelerometer or GPS.
> > 
> > I don't know much about the PMU, but I tried to connect the board to one
> > accelerometers VCC pin. It works, but I would not recommend it, because
> > the I2C lines are pulled up when idle. If the chips do not get powered,
> > some current may flows from the bus lines to ground. This could be more
> > that the "normal" standby current. But I have to admit that I did not
> > thest this yet.
> 
> Ok, I understand, current can leak through accerometer to GND. But,
> this can also happen with VCC connected to AUX, when AUX LED is on.
> This could be explanation for NOR u-boot problem.
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/I2C#Powering_additional_I2C_devices
I mostly use power from the AUX switch. With the FRNBv3 I did not encounter 
the NOR u-boot problem yet. Everything seems to work fine. If someone 
encounters a problem, there are solderpads for additional capacitors on the 
bottom side to fix evantual issues.

> According to
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board#Installation the
> AUX power is disabled in suspend. Is this PMU behavior
> configurable from software? For example, if I want to wake up Neo
> FreeRunner from suspend by IRQ interrupt from Navigation Board.
You got that wrong. The AUX power is always available, just the power to the 
accelorometers is shut down in suspend. If you grab your VCC from the 
decoupling cap of the accel, all sensors will be switched off.

If you want to weak the FR using a IRQ triggered from the FRNB, you need an 
additional wire to connect one sensor to a IRQ line on the FR. Since v3, all 
interrupt outputs of the sensors are available on (tiny) testpoints.

> Fortunately, I've found free PMU power output LDO3OUT alias test pin
> H-TP1702, which is proper solution for powering expansion
> devices/board like this. On the other hand its not easily accessible
> as AUX button or accelerometer, because its located near PMU under EM
> shielding, but its not impossible to wire it out. 
I did not try this yet.

> (Please, keep this
> in mind during GTA04 design process and wire at least one 3V3 power
> line outside shielding.)
Depending on measurement results, we may do not need a shield and there are 
testpoints which you can use to power additional electronics.

> >> PS: It would be nice to have some informations regarding power
> >> management documented on the wiki:
> >> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3
I will add more information when I can test the first machine assembled board.

Best regards,
  Christoph

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Re: FreeRunner Navigation Board v3 - Power management

[Martix]

Hi,

2011/5/21 Christoph Mair :
> Hi,
>
> Am Samstag 21 Mai 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Martix:
>> How much of power Navigation Board v3 consume, both in operational
>> state (all sensors are active) and in idle state (all sensors are
>> powered down)? Can I power down whole board from software?
> All sensors support a sleep state which reduces power consumption fo a few µA.
> I will add exact numbers to the wiki page. The sleep state is activated
> automatically after power-on. Therefore you have to talk to the sensor to
> activate it. The only exception is the gyroscope ITG-3200. This sensor needs
> the kernel module which will switch it of immediately after the module was
> loaded. If you forget to do this, it will consume about 6mA, IIRC.

>> could be board VCC connected somehow to the PMU (PCF50633)? Perhaps,
>> Navigation Board could use free power line from PMU, if it's available
>> or share power line with one accelerometer or GPS.
> I don't know much about the PMU, but I tried to connect the board to one
> accelerometers VCC pin. It works, but I would not recommend it, because the
> I2C lines are pulled up when idle. If the chips do not get powered, some
> current may flows from the bus lines to ground. This could be more that the
> "normal" standby current. But I have to admit that I did not thest this yet.

Ok, I understand, current can leak through accerometer to GND. But,
this can also happen with VCC connected to AUX, when AUX LED is on.
This could be explanation for NOR u-boot problem.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/I2C#Powering_additional_I2C_devices

According to 
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board#Installation
the AUX power is disabled in suspend. Is this PMU behavior
configurable from software? For example, if I want to wake up Neo
FreeRunner from suspend by IRQ interrupt from Navigation Board.

>> I know about test
>> pins with 0R resitors on PMU power outputs used for external current
>> measurement, VCC could be provided from one of these pads.
> I'd like to hear more about these 0Rs..

These pins could by used for current measurement (for example replace
0R by 0.1R and measure voltage drop on it) or for powering peripheral
devices from external sources.
For practical use see:
http://ertos.nicta.com.au/publications/papers/Carroll_Heiser_10.pdf

>> Did anybody considered PMU power management approach with Navigation Board?
> It should not be needed and could even be a bad idea. See above.

Fortunately, I've found free PMU power output LDO3OUT alias test pin
H-TP1702, which is proper solution for powering expansion
devices/board like this. On the other hand its not easily accessible
as AUX button or accelerometer, because its located near PMU under EM
shielding, but its not impossible to wire it out. (Please, keep this
in mind during GTA04 design process and wire at least one 3V3 power
line outside shielding.)

>> PS: It would be nice to have some informations regarding power
>> management documented on the wiki:
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3
> I will add some more info. The wiki page lacks a few other updates too..
> pinout and new pictures, for example.. I will try to fix this tomorrow.
>
> Best Regards,
>  Christoph
>

Best Regards,

Martix

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Re: FreeRunner Navigation Board v3 - Power management

[Christoph Mair]

Hi,

Am Samstag 21 Mai 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Martix:
> How much of power Navigation Board v3 consume, both in operational
> state (all sensors are active) and in idle state (all sensors are
> powered down)? Can I power down whole board from software?
All sensors support a sleep state which reduces power consumption fo a few µA. 
I will add exact numbers to the wiki page. The sleep state is activated 
automatically after power-on. Therefore you have to talk to the sensor to 
activate it. The only exception is the gyroscope ITG-3200. This sensor needs 
the kernel module which will switch it of immediately after the module was 
loaded. If you forget to do this, it will consume about 6mA, IIRC.

> could be board VCC connected somehow to the PMU (PCF50633)? Perhaps,
> Navigation Board could use free power line from PMU, if it's available
> or share power line with one accelerometer or GPS.
I don't know much about the PMU, but I tried to connect the board to one 
accelerometers VCC pin. It works, but I would not recommend it, because the 
I2C lines are pulled up when idle. If the chips do not get powered, some 
current may flows from the bus lines to ground. This could be more that the 
"normal" standby current. But I have to admit that I did not thest this yet.

> I know about test
> pins with 0R resitors on PMU power outputs used for external current
> measurement, VCC could be provided from one of these pads.
I'd like to hear more about these 0Rs..

> Did anybody considered PMU power management approach with Navigation Board?
It should not be needed and could even be a bad idea. See above.

> PS: It would be nice to have some informations regarding power
> management documented on the wiki:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3
I will add some more info. The wiki page lacks a few other updates too.. 
pinout and new pictures, for example.. I will try to fix this tomorrow.

Best Regards,
  Christoph

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FreeRunner Navigation Board v3 - Power management

[Martix]

Hello,

How much of power Navigation Board v3 consume, both in operational
state (all sensors are active) and in idle state (all sensors are
powered down)? Can I power down whole board from software? If not,
could be board VCC connected somehow to the PMU (PCF50633)? Perhaps,
Navigation Board could use free power line from PMU, if it's available
or share power line with one accelerometer or GPS. I know about test
pins with 0R resitors on PMU power outputs used for external current
measurement, VCC could be provided from one of these pads.
Did anybody considered PMU power management approach with Navigation Board?

I like to hear your opinion and suggestions about this matter.

PS: It would be nice to have some informations regarding power
management documented on the wiki:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Navigation_Board_v3

Best Regards,

Martix

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Re: [qtmoko] regression in power management (was: qtmoko v21)

[Radek Polak]

Alfa21 wrote:

> fine,
> I've opened a ticket on mantis about this:
> http://bugs.qtmoko.org/view.php?id=128

No one has patch now? If no i will take a look but i need some time (maybe 
little break). In meanwhile there is IMO new feature in my git that can be 
used as workaround.

I have added power management options when screen is locked. I use it that i 
disable suspend for battery and power supply and set 20s interval for suspend 
when screen is locked.

You will be no longer bothered with dimming screen and unwanted suspends. When 
you want no longer work with Neo, just hit the lock button and it will suspend 
after 20s.

http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/39cca6cdb72559ae241e7c0783ebc80d.png

Regards

Radek

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Re: [qtmoko] regression in power management (was: qtmoko v21)

[Alfa21]

fine,
I've opened a ticket on mantis about this:
http://bugs.qtmoko.org/view.php?id=128

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Re: [qtmoko] regression in power management (was: qtmoko v21)

[Rune Gangstø]

I can confirm that this happens. I have a freshly installed qtmoko

Regards.
Rune

fr. den 09.04.2010 klokka 22:04 (-0700) skreiv Rafael Ignacio Zurita:
> Hello,
> 
> --- On Fri, 4/9/10, Alfa21  wrote:
> > 
> > > I hope there are no regressions from previous version. If yes, please let 
> > > me 
> > > know i will try to fix them for next release.
> > 
> > found a regression:
> > in v21 if you boot on battery and then attach usb, the
> > power profile is still on battery.
> > 
> > eg, if you have enabled suspend:
> > - ssh connection will be paused because of std-by
> > - recharge will be paused on std-by
> > 
> > btw if you go to power management you can manually disable
> > suspend
> 
>   the same here.
> 
> Radek, I did the upgrade as you suggested (from v19 to v21)
> without reflashing, and after some few shutdown device -> power on
> I realized that the system thinks that it is still on battery
> when it is usb attached. So it suspends as Alfa21 also reports.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Rafael
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
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Re: [qtmoko] regression in power management (was: qtmoko v21)

[Rafael Ignacio Zurita]

Hello,

--- On Fri, 4/9/10, Alfa21  wrote:
> 
> > I hope there are no regressions from previous version. If yes, please let 
> > me 
> > know i will try to fix them for next release.
> 
> found a regression:
> in v21 if you boot on battery and then attach usb, the
> power profile is still on battery.
> 
> eg, if you have enabled suspend:
> - ssh connection will be paused because of std-by
> - recharge will be paused on std-by
> 
> btw if you go to power management you can manually disable
> suspend

  the same here.

Radek, I did the upgrade as you suggested (from v19 to v21)
without reflashing, and after some few shutdown device -> power on
I realized that the system thinks that it is still on battery
when it is usb attached. So it suspends as Alfa21 also reports.

Regards.

Rafael



  

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[qtmoko] regression in power management (was: qtmoko v21)

[Alfa21]

2010-04...@22:31 Radek Polak

> I hope there are no regressions from previous version. If yes, please let me 
> know i will try to fix them for next release.

found a regression:
in v21 if you boot on battery and then attach usb, the power profile is still 
on battery.

eg, if you have enabled suspend:
- ssh connection will be paused because of std-by
- recharge will be paused on std-by

btw if you go to power management you can manually disable suspend

regards
-- 
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR 
IMPLIED.

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[all] wlan power management problems

[Fox Mulder]

Hi,

since the default wlan mode was changed to use power savings i got
problems with my wlan accesspoint. I always have to issue the command
"wmiconfig -i eth0 --power maxperf" to get a stable connection.
Now i thought if i could solve this if i change some settings on my wlan
ap. I use dd-wrt as router firmware and it has a lot of settings
especially for wlan. But i don't know what most of these settings do so
maybe someone of you has a suggestion what i can change. Here [1] is a
screenshot of all wlan specific settings in dd-wrt.
I know that i could still use wmiconfig to use my ap but i would prefer
to use the power saving mode.
Is there a chance to make my ap work with the ar6000 power savings
enabled when changing these settings?

Ciao,
 Rainer

[1] http://quakeman.homelinux.net/files/ddwrt.png

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Re: [Qt Extended]: Power management functions not working when plugged in.

[Lorn Potter]

Kelvie Wong wrote:
> On Sunday, October 05, 2008 21:00:41 Lorn Potter wrote:
>> Yes, this is a known issue, unfortunately. Am working on this as we speak.
> 
> Good to hear :)  Are snapshots going to be available, or would I have to wait 
> until the next release?
> 

We are waiting on an 'ok' to start snapshots.


-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, Qt Software, Nokia Pty Ltd



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Re: [Qt Extended]: Power management functions not working when plugged in.

[Kelvie Wong]

On Sunday, October 05, 2008 21:00:41 Lorn Potter wrote:
> Yes, this is a known issue, unfortunately. Am working on this as we speak.

Good to hear :)  Are snapshots going to be available, or would I have to wait 
until the next release?

-- 
Kelvie Wong

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Re: [Qt Extended]: Power management functions not working when plugged in.

[Lorn Potter]

Kelvie Wong wrote:
> On Sunday, October 05, 2008 20:46:27 Kelvie Wong wrote:
>> I've used the Power Management dialog to set the FR to turn off its screen
>> after X amount of time -- this seems to only work when the phone is
>> unplugged.
>>
>> Whenever I plug it back in, the settings are not respected.  Is this a
>> known issue?  When on battery, the settings get respected.
>>
>> I have also removed the power management settings from the current profile,
>> so I don't think that is what is affecting it right now.
> 
> Also, this is on 4.4.1, with the latest kernel on mwester's site:
> gta02-g291a9d50_mwester-stable
> 
> 

Yes, this is a known issue, unfortunately. Am working on this as we speak.


-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, Qt Software, Nokia Pty Ltd



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Re: [Qt Extended]: Power management functions not working when plugged in.

[Kelvie Wong]

On Sunday, October 05, 2008 20:46:27 Kelvie Wong wrote:
> I've used the Power Management dialog to set the FR to turn off its screen
> after X amount of time -- this seems to only work when the phone is
> unplugged.
>
> Whenever I plug it back in, the settings are not respected.  Is this a
> known issue?  When on battery, the settings get respected.
>
> I have also removed the power management settings from the current profile,
> so I don't think that is what is affecting it right now.

Also, this is on 4.4.1, with the latest kernel on mwester's site:
gta02-g291a9d50_mwester-stable


-- 
Kelvie Wong

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[Qt Extended]: Power management functions not working when plugged in.

[Kelvie Wong]

I've used the Power Management dialog to set the FR to turn off its screen 
after X amount of time -- this seems to only work when the phone is unplugged.

Whenever I plug it back in, the settings are not respected.  Is this a known 
issue?  When on battery, the settings get respected.

I have also removed the power management settings from the current profile, so 
I don't think that is what is affecting it right now.

-- 
Kelvie Wong

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Re: power management/wakeups with qtopia vs 2007.2

[Ole Kliemann]

On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 04:54:16PM +0200, arne anka wrote:
> yesterday in installed qtopia to an sd card to check it out, tried the  
> phone (worked) and went to bed.
> the 2007.2 uses to resume frequently w/o any apparent reason -- as far as  
> i can tell the qtopia does not.
> yet, it responses to incoming calls and resumes.

I can confirm this. Still there are issues too. Sometimes after long
suspend the display is all white. Sometimes the picture comes back after
~20secs, sometimes not.

And if suspended for long, SMS don't wake it up.

But in fact Qtopia makes the FR very well usable even on a long day
without charger. A night on suspend drains maybe 20% of the battery.

Ole


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power management/wakeups with qtopia vs 2007.2

[arne anka]

yesterday in installed qtopia to an sd card to check it out, tried the  
phone (worked) and went to bed.
the 2007.2 uses to resume frequently w/o any apparent reason -- as far as  
i can tell the qtopia does not.
yet, it responses to incoming calls and resumes.
in the morning the battery status was better (judging from the battery  
indicator) than w/ 2007.2.
so, what does the qtopia do 2007.2 does not and is it possible to port  
that bit to 2007.2?

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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Tim Knapp]

Hi Bobby,

Well, I should've clarified that I haven't tested GSM after a resume (I
was just happy to have the UI return to a usable state). And I'm using
the 17th image/kernel recommended by Kevin Dean. I'll report back on my
GSM test results in another email.

-Tim

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 15:32 -0500, Bobby Martin wrote:
> Are you saying that sound & GSM work after resume using the April 17th
> image?  What kernel image are you using?
> 
> Hi Fredrik,
> 
> All I can say is since loading the 17th April image on my Neo
> it has in
> terms of battery life become *very* usable. I'm soooo glad now
> that I
> can set the 'power management' to 'dim then lock' and now I
> can happily
> use it for a whole day (or more as haven't tested its
> thresholds yet)!
> Thanks Openmoko!
> 
> Regards,
> Tim
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
> the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
> being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
> exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. —
> Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg trials 
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Bobby Martin]

Are you saying that sound & GSM work after resume using the April 17th
image?  What kernel image are you using?

Hi Fredrik,
>
> All I can say is since loading the 17th April image on my Neo it has in
> terms of battery life become *very* usable. I'm s glad now that I
> can set the 'power management' to 'dim then lock' and now I can happily
> use it for a whole day (or more as haven't tested its thresholds yet)!
> Thanks Openmoko!
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>



-- 
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country. — Hermann Göring at the
Nuremberg trials
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Tim Knapp]

Hi Fredrik,

All I can say is since loading the 17th April image on my Neo it has in
terms of battery life become *very* usable. I'm s glad now that I
can set the 'power management' to 'dim then lock' and now I can happily
use it for a whole day (or more as haven't tested its thresholds yet)!
Thanks Openmoko!

Regards,
Tim

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 15:28 +0200, Fredrik Markström wrote:
> Hello Richter !
> 
> I have not made any complains regarding the software, what I am
> complaining about is the fact that
> no representative from openmoko has commented on the bug that makes
> the GTA01 not wakeup from
> suspend on incoming calls and/or SMS:es. (reliably anyway)
> 
> As far as I understand people in the community has been investigating
> this and indicated that
> it is likely to be a bug related to the modem hardware or firmware. Me
> and others has asked this question
> a number of times on this list, but so far no official comments.
> 
> I didn't expect the GTA01 (or any product as complex as this) to be
> bug free, but I did expect openmoko to
> be open and supportive. If this is how they will handle current and
> future problems (with silence), I'd advice
> against buying their stuff.
> 
> /Fredrik
> 
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 4/21/08, Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > Still no official comments on this issue ?
> >  >
> >  > Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
> >  > spending $399 on another piece of potentially
> >  > useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
> >  > silent and unresponsive, using "busy
> >  > with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.
> >
> >  I think you have misunderstood the consept. Now Openmoko works
> >  hard to bring out the GTA02 STK to software developers. The software
> >  developers are the community. We will implement power management
> >  and Openmoko is nice enough to help us by (they hired people just to
> >  help us).
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !
> >
> >  Then go and buy an iPhone if you rather have that. If you do not want
> >  a developer edition, but a consumer ready phone, you should not
> >  buy the Freerunner yet.
> >
> >  --
> >  Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
> >  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >  Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
> >  http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>
> >
> >  ___
> >  Openmoko community mailing list
> >  community@lists.openmoko.org
> >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Fredrik Markström wrote:

2) True, but I don't question the community or the software, I
question the openness of openmoko regarding hardware issues.


This could be true for the GTA01 issues, but not for the ones actually 
found on GTA02 (think to the LEDs story... In few days we got an answer 
that, in the case, was also a solution!).


--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Fredrik Markström]

Matthew,
1) I was talking about GTA01 and the suspend/resume bug, I don't care
about standby minutes, but I'd like to be able to use it for a little
more then 3 hours between charging.
2) True, but I don't question the community or the software, I
question the openness of openmoko regarding hardware issues.
3) True, sorry about my false comparison.

/Fredrik


On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Crane, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Give me a break.
>
>  1) Worst case, no fix, so led is disabled.  Phone is therefore useless?   
> Why do you exaggerate?  I speculate you are discouraging people so that they 
> also waste there money on an iPhone and therefore partially validate your 
> flawed decision to buy one.
>
>  2) Open development taken with current community size means we are already 
> past the critical volume required to sustain long term access to 
> knowledgeable people and web resources.  The traffic on the dev lists for 
> openmoko is comparable to projects that sustain for many years.
>
>  3) iPhone + gps = 399$ + 150$
>
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fredrik 
> Markström
>  Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:28 AM
>  To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
>  Subject: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !
>
>
>  Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
>  Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
>  spending $399 on another piece of potentially
>  useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
>  silent and unresponsive, using "busy
>  with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.
>
>  The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !
>
>  /Fredrik
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Fredrik Markström]

In fact it is $399 + ($0 for ZiPhone unlock) !

/Fredrik

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 6:34 PM, thomasg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is always funny to see how the bad marketing works.
> Still many people out there haven't noticed, that the iPhone doesn't cost
> 399$.
> In fact it cost's 399$ + 24 monthly fees hidden behind some included minutes
> and so on.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fredrik Markström
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Still no official comments on this issue ?
> >
> > Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
> > spending $399 on another piece of potentially
> > useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
> > silent and unresponsive, using "busy
> > with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.
> >
> > The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !
> >
> > /Fredrik
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
>
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>

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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Fredrik Markström]

Hello Richter !

I have not made any complains regarding the software, what I am
complaining about is the fact that
no representative from openmoko has commented on the bug that makes
the GTA01 not wakeup from
suspend on incoming calls and/or SMS:es. (reliably anyway)

As far as I understand people in the community has been investigating
this and indicated that
it is likely to be a bug related to the modem hardware or firmware. Me
and others has asked this question
a number of times on this list, but so far no official comments.

I didn't expect the GTA01 (or any product as complex as this) to be
bug free, but I did expect openmoko to
be open and supportive. If this is how they will handle current and
future problems (with silence), I'd advice
against buying their stuff.

/Fredrik

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 4/21/08, Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Still no official comments on this issue ?
>  >
>  > Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
>  > spending $399 on another piece of potentially
>  > useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
>  > silent and unresponsive, using "busy
>  > with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.
>
>  I think you have misunderstood the consept. Now Openmoko works
>  hard to bring out the GTA02 STK to software developers. The software
>  developers are the community. We will implement power management
>  and Openmoko is nice enough to help us by (they hired people just to
>  help us).
>
>
>  >
>  > The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !
>
>  Then go and buy an iPhone if you rather have that. If you do not want
>  a developer edition, but a consumer ready phone, you should not
>  buy the Freerunner yet.
>
>  --
>  Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
>  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>  Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
>  http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>
>
>  ___
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>

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RE: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[steve]

Kevin,

  I loved your description about how commerce happens. Its because we
disagree, it's because we value things differently, that a trade happens.
People agree on a price because they disagree on the value. and that
foundational disagreement fuels innovation.

So, I like arguments.

WRT to Apple iImplants. if somebody wants to buy into the borg, I shrug. 

red pill? blue pill? choose.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:15 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community
discussion
Subject: Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Fredrik Markström
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
>  Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
>  spending $399 on another piece of potentially
>  useless hardware (GTA02).

If you think your GTA01 is useless, I'll buy it from you for $5 USD...
I'd love to have a spare battery for mine. I use the Neo1973 as my
primary phone and digital audio player. Furthermore, it's powered by
Free Software except for the bits that I'm explicitly informed are
NOT. Respecting my property rights is quite valuable IMO. The device
is functional enough to be used for me.

I'd advise ANYONE making value judgements to look at the definition of
"value". It's inherently different for everyone, which is why the
ideas of "commerce" and "sale" and "free markets" work - because the
value of a good is different for one person than another and when that
exchange of values benefits BOTH parties, it is a "good" sale.

Power management issues are well known on GTA01 and there are people
who still think the device is a good value, myself included.  People
should evaluate their own uses and decide from themselves. Keep in
mind that without selling the Freerunner, there won't BE an "improved"
device.

> From my point of view openmoko might be as
>  silent and unresponsive, using "busy
>  with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

As opposed to every other device manufacturer? I've never had Nokia or
Motorola or Samsung or anyone else fix my problems right away. One the
flip side, Openmoko is pretty clear about what's happening.
Furthermore, they were also pretty clear when I entered my credit card
information into the online storefront that there WOULD be issues with
the device and that it was a developer's edition.

>
>  The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

And yet, this is the Openmoko community list, full of people who are
interested in Openmoko products. Some of us don't care one iota about
the iPhone because (again, that value thing) it's not worth our money.
For me, I'd not pay to be in Apple's golden cage - I'm sure others
fell the same way. For other people, iPhone is a social cliche -
useless because it's popular. If the iPhone is better than a product
offered by Openmoko, spend your money on an iPhone instead.

>
>  /Fredrik
>
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Schmidt András]

Why the hell would a geek buy a shiny crap that can play f***ing top 
hits and show some idiot web pages for 400$. Who cares them???
Features are not why I am interested in Openmoko. Yet unimplemented 
features are what makes me interested.
A geek needs something hackable. Something with replacable software. 
Limited SDK-s, restrictive license and paying for features that are 
already implemented by the free world is not what people like here.
It is all about freedom and openness. It is so free that you are free 
not to understand.


Fredrik Markström wrote:

Still no official comments on this issue ?

Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
spending $399 on another piece of potentially
useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
silent and unresponsive, using "busy
with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

/Fredrik

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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Fredrik Markström
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
>  Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
>  spending $399 on another piece of potentially
>  useless hardware (GTA02).

If you think your GTA01 is useless, I'll buy it from you for $5 USD...
I'd love to have a spare battery for mine. I use the Neo1973 as my
primary phone and digital audio player. Furthermore, it's powered by
Free Software except for the bits that I'm explicitly informed are
NOT. Respecting my property rights is quite valuable IMO. The device
is functional enough to be used for me.

I'd advise ANYONE making value judgements to look at the definition of
"value". It's inherently different for everyone, which is why the
ideas of "commerce" and "sale" and "free markets" work - because the
value of a good is different for one person than another and when that
exchange of values benefits BOTH parties, it is a "good" sale.

Power management issues are well known on GTA01 and there are people
who still think the device is a good value, myself included.  People
should evaluate their own uses and decide from themselves. Keep in
mind that without selling the Freerunner, there won't BE an "improved"
device.

> From my point of view openmoko might be as
>  silent and unresponsive, using "busy
>  with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

As opposed to every other device manufacturer? I've never had Nokia or
Motorola or Samsung or anyone else fix my problems right away. One the
flip side, Openmoko is pretty clear about what's happening.
Furthermore, they were also pretty clear when I entered my credit card
information into the online storefront that there WOULD be issues with
the device and that it was a developer's edition.

>
>  The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

And yet, this is the Openmoko community list, full of people who are
interested in Openmoko products. Some of us don't care one iota about
the iPhone because (again, that value thing) it's not worth our money.
For me, I'd not pay to be in Apple's golden cage - I'm sure others
fell the same way. For other people, iPhone is a social cliche -
useless because it's popular. If the iPhone is better than a product
offered by Openmoko, spend your money on an iPhone instead.

>
>  /Fredrik
>
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RE: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Crane, Matthew]

Give me a break.  

1) Worst case, no fix, so led is disabled.  Phone is therefore useless?   Why 
do you exaggerate?  I speculate you are discouraging people so that they also 
waste there money on an iPhone and therefore partially validate your flawed 
decision to buy one.

2) Open development taken with current community size means we are already past 
the critical volume required to sustain long term access to knowledgeable 
people and web resources.  The traffic on the dev lists for openmoko is 
comparable to projects that sustain for many years.

3) iPhone + gps = 399$ + 150$


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fredrik Markström
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:28 AM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !


Still no official comments on this issue ?

Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
spending $399 on another piece of potentially
useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
silent and unresponsive, using "busy
with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

/Fredrik

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RE: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Crane, Matthew]

Yea, not to mention all the extra crap you gotta pay if you want to have a 
broad base of sw.   These mobile devices are turning into platforms where 
software fees for dinky little apps are to be the primary source of income for 
the hardware mfgr, much like game consoles.  
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of thomasg
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !


It is always funny to see how the bad marketing works.
Still many people out there haven't noticed, that the iPhone doesn't cost 399$.
In fact it cost's 399$ + 24 monthly fees hidden behind some included minutes 
and so on.


On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Still no official comments on this issue ?

Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
spending $399 on another piece of potentially
useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
silent and unresponsive, using "busy
with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

/Fredrik

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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[thomasg]

It is always funny to see how the bad marketing works.
Still many people out there haven't noticed, that the iPhone doesn't cost
399$.
In fact it cost's 399$ + 24 monthly fees hidden behind some included minutes
and so on.

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fredrik Markström <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
> Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
> spending $399 on another piece of potentially
> useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
> silent and unresponsive, using "busy
> with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.
>
> The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !
>
> /Fredrik
>
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 4/21/08, Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
> Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
> spending $399 on another piece of potentially
> useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
> silent and unresponsive, using "busy
> with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

I think you have misunderstood the consept. Now Openmoko works
hard to bring out the GTA02 STK to software developers. The software
developers are the community. We will implement power management
and Openmoko is nice enough to help us by (they hired people just to
help us).

>
> The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

Then go and buy an iPhone if you rather have that. If you do not want
a developer edition, but a consumer ready phone, you should not
buy the Freerunner yet.

-- 
Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>

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Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Fredrik Markström]

Still no official comments on this issue ?

Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
spending $399 on another piece of potentially
useless hardware (GTA02). From my point of view openmoko might be as
silent and unresponsive, using "busy
with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

/Fredrik

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Fredrik,

* Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [04-04-08 12:59]:
>I'm getting an uneasy feeling about the GTA01 power management issues, the
>questions has been asked more then once in this forum, but I havn't seen
>any answeres. Is openmoko trying to "put the lid on" or what ?
I think all are in GTA02 elation, ... [ :-) & :-( ]

But i also want clearness!

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-January/012456.html
Huh? Doesn't used qtopia the same kernel as openmoko at that time/date?

Resume works! But not ever, this remembers me on my old notebook, with
bad drivers... I found the driver by using this pm-trace feature for
i386 hardware. Isn't it possible to port this to the neo?
Or are there other ways to debug the resume? I really want to work on
it, but i don't know how!

I don't know the power usage in suspend, but if the device doesn't wake
up every time, we don't need to talk about power usage!

And to give this GTA01-PM thing a new mind:
I think with working power management, we are all better capable in
testing software!

> 
>/Fredrik
> 
>On Thu, Feb 7, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Tim Niemeyer
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>  Hello,
> 
>  as i understood correctly in GTA02 are new PCF and CPU. So it's possible
>  that the problems in GTA01 aren't in GTA02.
> 
>  But the question from frederik is still unansweared. Michael any news?
> 
>  * Fredrik Markstro:m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [27-01-08
>  17:28]:
>  >
>  >Michael, any progress on this issue ?  Will the GTA-01 ever be
>  usable as
>  >an everyday-phone, or
>  >is the hardware to broken ?
>  >
>  >/Fredrik
> 
>  Tim Niemeyer
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> 
>  iD8DBQFHqi7lGbn/Eak8UZYRAspZAJ9V6gSyEFeU+4RLNLnWHPJREBQNzwCcDpiT
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Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Fredrik Markström]

I'm getting an uneasy feeling about the GTA01 power management issues, the
questions has been asked more then once in this forum, but I havn't seen any
answeres. Is openmoko trying to "put the lid on" or what ?

/Fredrik

On Thu, Feb 7, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> as i understood correctly in GTA02 are new PCF and CPU. So it's possible
> that the problems in GTA01 aren't in GTA02.
>
> But the question from frederik is still unansweared. Michael any news?
>
> * Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [27-01-08
> 17:28]:
> >
> >Michael, any progress on this issue ?  Will the GTA-01 ever be usable
> as
> >an everyday-phone, or
> >is the hardware to broken ?
> >
> >/Fredrik
>
>
> Tim Niemeyer
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFHqi7lGbn/Eak8UZYRAspZAJ9V6gSyEFeU+4RLNLnWHPJREBQNzwCcDpiT
> SBV30RIBgRmuHPipE1wsUYA=
> =DJTH
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Power management questions

[JW]

Ivo Anjo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> - When the phone is on standby what happens with the screen? Does the
> backlight get turned off? Or does the screen get turned off
> completely?

Both options are available AFAIK and both will be used in different
usages/according to different rules.

> - Will it be possible for apps to control things like cpu speed and
> screen on/off? 

Code to control cpu speed (not so simple to coordinate between the various chips
on the motherboard) is working for GTA01 and is being developed for GTA02.   
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq.

Apps/userspace can control this and screen on/off

JW









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Power management questions

[Ivo Anjo]

Hi.

I've been following openmoko for the last few months, and as the
freerunner seems to be closer and closer I have some doubts/ideas
regarding power management:

- When the phone is on standby what happens with the screen? Does the
backlight get turned off? Or does the screen get turned off
completely?

- Will it be possible for apps to control things like cpu speed and
screen on/off? I was thinking that when listening to music the cpu
can't obviously be asleep, but it would help battery life if the clock
speed (and possible other things) were throttled back a little, and
also that the screen could be controlled by the music app so it would
turn off after a while, or at least turn off the backlight.

Thanks,
Ivo Anjo

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hello,

as i understood correctly in GTA02 are new PCF and CPU. So it's possible
that the problems in GTA01 aren't in GTA02.

But the question from frederik is still unansweared. Michael any news?

* Fredrik Markström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [27-01-08 17:28]:
> 
>Michael, any progress on this issue ?  Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as
>an everyday-phone, or
>is the hardware to broken ?
> 
>/Fredrik


Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 31, 2008 2:18 PM, Tore Dalaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> WARNING: Developers only!
>
> Please note that the OpenMoko products are not meant for the end user and
> explicitly marked as Developer preview at this time. Read this wiki article
> to find more technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
> devices.
>
>  I have been warned!

I see that warning as being about the current state of the software
mostly.  My expectation is that if this sort of show-stopper issue can
be fixed in software, then it will be, ASAP (and hopefully before the
hardware becomes too outdated).  So far it's still just a software
problem, right?  so I still have some hope that it will be fixed.  I
hope the official team does too, and I would like to see a priority
placed on this power-management stuff.  The remaining flaws can mostly
be worked around (except for that unfortunate GSM 850 problem, for
some people), but not this one.  If it can't survive even one or two
days on one battery, it's not useful as a phone, and consequently not
too many are going to be carrying it around and using it, and
consequently the apps being developed will suffer.

Are we depending on the internal team to fix it?  Is anybody in the
community making progress on power management?  Is it within reach to
do so?  Should I try to help?

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RE: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tore Dalaker]

Did you not read this when ordering your phone from
https://direct.openmoko.com/

 



WARNING: Developers only!

Please note that the OpenMoko products are not meant for the end user and
explicitly marked as Developer preview at this time. Read this wiki article
to find more technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
devices. 

 I have been warned!



 

Tore

 

Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] På vegne av Fredrik Markström
Sendt: 31. januar 2008 20:43
Til: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Emne: Re: Power Management on Neo1973

 

That sucks...

If I buy a GTA-02 and it has hardware issues, will your attention to such
issues
be down-prioritized in favor of the (by then) next generation hardware ?

I really thought I did buy fully functional hardware in the GTA-01. Instead
i had
to wait forever for the GPS-stuff and now it seems like it will never be
usable as a
wireless device !

I'm disappointed !

/Fredrik



On Jan 28, 2008 8:35 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Fredrik Markström wrote:
> Michael, any progress on this issue ?

Hi Fredrik,

Sorry, not yet. I'm afraid this is not at the top of the priorities
right now. We recognize that it is highly important but our main focus
is always on getting GTA02 out.

Hopefully shortly we will be able to address this.

Michael



Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as
> an everyday-phone, or
> is the hardware to broken ?
>
> /Fredrik
>
> On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Tim Niemeyer wrote:
>
>  > On another Thread was this:
>  > ---
>  > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
> firmware will
>  > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused
> by the
>  > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
>  >
>  > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm question?
>  >
>  > Tim Niemeyer
>
> I will add this to my todo list.
>
> Michael
>
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>
>

> 

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Fredrik Markström]

That sucks...

If I buy a GTA-02 and it has hardware issues, will your attention to such
issues
be down-prioritized in favor of the (by then) next generation hardware ?

I really thought I did buy fully functional hardware in the GTA-01. Instead
i had
to wait forever for the GPS-stuff and now it seems like it will never be
usable as a
wireless device !

I'm disappointed !

/Fredrik


On Jan 28, 2008 8:35 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> Fredrik Markström wrote:
> > Michael, any progress on this issue ?
>
> Hi Fredrik,
>
> Sorry, not yet. I'm afraid this is not at the top of the priorities
> right now. We recognize that it is highly important but our main focus
> is always on getting GTA02 out.
>
> Hopefully shortly we will be able to address this.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as
> > an everyday-phone, or
> > is the hardware to broken ?
> >
> > /Fredrik
> >
> > On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Tim Niemeyer wrote:
> >
> >  > On another Thread was this:
> >  > ---
> >  > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
> > firmware will
> >  > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused
> > by the
> >  > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
> >  >
> >  > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm
> question?
> >  >
> >  > Tim Niemeyer
> >
> > I will add this to my todo list.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
> >
> > 
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Re: GTA02 powered USB host port and power management (Was: Re: Worries are gone? (was FM Tuner for RDS on the Neo ?))

[JW]

> >I'll need to research this to get the full story, first what caused the
> problem(s) in GTA01, and then how they were fixed in GTA02.
> 
> >Michael
> 

There is quite a lot of info here which probably need split into GTA01v4 and
GTA02 sections.  In particular some of the tables show which type of speeds 
offer
what rewards

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management 

JW






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Re: GTA02 powered USB host port and power management (Was: Re: Worries are gone? (was FM Tuner for RDS on the Neo ?))

[Oliver]

Awesome! Thanks for the speedy reply.

>> 1) Confirm/Deny wether GTA02 will have a powered USB port

>GTA02 will have a powered USB port.

>> 2) Go into more detail of how GTA02 power management has improved over GTA01.

>I'll need to research this to get the full story, first what caused the
problem(s) in GTA01, and then how they were fixed in GTA02.

>Michael

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GTA02 powered USB host port and power management (Was: Re: Worries are gone? (was FM Tuner for RDS on the Neo ?))

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Oliver,

Oliver wrote:

Wow! That's really great news as that and battery time were my two
main worries. It would be lovely if Michael could:
1) Confirm/Deny wether GTA02 will have a powered USB port


GTA02 will have a powered USB port.


2) Go into more detail of how GTA02 power management has improved over GTA01.


I'll need to research this to get the full story, first what caused the 
problem(s) in GTA01, and then how they were fixed in GTA02.


Michael



/Oliver


I haven't heard anything about it for a while, but IIRC freerunner is
supposed to have a powered USB port
--
Jeff
O|||O


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Tony,

That's an excellent question. Fortunately it has a simple answer.

The answer to your question is that we, OpenMoko, do understand the 
power management issues, and it has been addressed in GTA02.


The unknown parts are that I, personally, don't know exactly what caused 
this problem, how it was addressed, and how this issue should be fixed 
in GTA01.


Michael

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Just curious how you can be certain this issue has been resolved in GTA02
if you cannot answer this question?

If you dont know how GTA01 can be fixed, how do you know GTA02 is fixed? 
Or maybe GTA02 has this same issue?


please advise




Fredrik Markström wrote:

Michael, any progress on this issue ?

Hi Fredrik,

Sorry, not yet. I'm afraid this is not at the top of the priorities
right now. We recognize that it is highly important but our main focus
is always on getting GTA02 out.

Hopefully shortly we will be able to address this.

Michael


Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as

an everyday-phone, or
is the hardware to broken ?

/Fredrik

On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:



Tim Niemeyer wrote:

 > On another Thread was this:
 > ---
 > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
firmware will
 > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused
by the
 > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
 >
 > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm
question?
 >
 > Tim Niemeyer

I will add this to my todo list.

Michael

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[openmoko]

Just curious how you can be certain this issue has been resolved in GTA02
if you cannot answer this question?

If you dont know how GTA01 can be fixed, how do you know GTA02 is fixed? 
Or maybe GTA02 has this same issue?

please advise


>
>
> Fredrik Markström wrote:
>> Michael, any progress on this issue ?
>
> Hi Fredrik,
>
> Sorry, not yet. I'm afraid this is not at the top of the priorities
> right now. We recognize that it is highly important but our main focus
> is always on getting GTA02 out.
>
> Hopefully shortly we will be able to address this.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as
>> an everyday-phone, or
>> is the hardware to broken ?
>>
>> /Fredrik
>>
>> On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Niemeyer wrote:
>>
>>  > On another Thread was this:
>>  > ---
>>  > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
>> firmware will
>>  > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused
>> by the
>>  > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
>>  >
>>  > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm
>> question?
>>  >
>>  > Tim Niemeyer
>>
>> I will add this to my todo list.
>>
>> Michael
>>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Michael Shiloh]

Fredrik Markström wrote:
Michael, any progress on this issue ?  


Hi Fredrik,

Sorry, not yet. I'm afraid this is not at the top of the priorities 
right now. We recognize that it is highly important but our main focus 
is always on getting GTA02 out.


Hopefully shortly we will be able to address this.

Michael


Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as

an everyday-phone, or
is the hardware to broken ?

/Fredrik

On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:




Tim Niemeyer wrote:

 > On another Thread was this:
 > ---
 > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
firmware will
 > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused
by the
 > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
 >
 > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm question?
 >
 > Tim Niemeyer

I will add this to my todo list.

Michael

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Fredrik Markström]

Michael, any progress on this issue ?  Will the GTA-01 ever be usable as an
everyday-phone, or
is the hardware to broken ?

/Fredrik

On Jan 14, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> Tim Niemeyer wrote:
>
> > On another Thread was this:
> > ---
> > And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
> firmware will
> > also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused by the
> > firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
> >
> > Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm question?
> >
> > Tim Niemeyer
>
> I will add this to my todo list.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Michael Shiloh]

Tim Niemeyer wrote:


On another Thread was this:
---
And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new firmware will
also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused by the
firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.

Can anybody from Openmoko please answer this firmware-pm question?

Tim Niemeyer


I will add this to my todo list.

Michael

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Nils,

* Nils Faerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [14-01-08 11:36]:
> > i searched on this, but didn't found what i though about...
> > found something else:
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/buglog/2007-September/005155.html
> 
> Good catch, thanks!
> And there was some explanation in that or close thread as well.
> Puh, so it was not only my imagination ;)
> 
> So in this light we have to assume that both fixes will be in the new
> firmware?
I don't think so, because Message was from 2007-September!


On another Thread was this:
---
And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new firmware will
also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be caused by the
firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.
---

Can anybody from Openmoko please answear this firmware-pm question?


Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Tim Niemeyer schrieb:
> Hallo Nils,
Hi!

> i searched on this, but didn't found what i though about...
> found something else:
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/buglog/2007-September/005155.html

Good catch, thanks!
And there was some explanation in that or close thread as well.
Puh, so it was not only my imagination ;)

So in this light we have to assume that both fixes will be in the new
firmware?

Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Nils,

i searched on this, but didn't found what i though about...
found something else:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/buglog/2007-September/005155.html


* Nils Faerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [14-01-08 10:23]:
> From: Nils Faerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion 
> Subject: Re: Power Management on Neo1973
> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:23:35 +0100
> Organization: kernel concepts
> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14pre (X11/20071023)
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_HELO_PASS 
>   autolearn=ham version=3.0.3
> 
> Michael Shiloh schrieb:
> > Nicolas Linkert wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >> 
> >>> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
> >>> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
> >>> eater.
> >>
> >> I was under the impression that the last modem update occured because
> >> some SIM cards were not recognized. 
> > 
> > That is correct.
> > 
> >> Is there a new update of the modem
> >> planned that is going to deal with power management?
> > 
> > No. I've never heard of anything even remotely like this.
> 
> Well, there were discussions, I would have to go back in the
> mailinglist, that the earlier GSM firmware version (up to the latest
> shipped firmware) were not able to do low-power standby, which means
> still being connected to the GSM and being able to receive calls/SMS but
> be in a lower power state than full operation. This is/was supposed to
> be the standby mode of the modem. And since this did not work, and
> current measurements prove this to be quite likely, it was my assumption
> that a later firmware would also address this problem.
> If it does not then this would really be pityful. With only the GSM
> sucking 20-40mA we will never reach any sane standby time.
> 
> > Michael
> Cheers
>   nils faerber
> 
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Michael Shiloh schrieb:
> Nicolas Linkert wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> 
>>> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
>>> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
>>> eater.
>>
>> I was under the impression that the last modem update occured because
>> some SIM cards were not recognized. 
> 
> That is correct.
> 
>> Is there a new update of the modem
>> planned that is going to deal with power management?
> 
> No. I've never heard of anything even remotely like this.

Well, there were discussions, I would have to go back in the
mailinglist, that the earlier GSM firmware version (up to the latest
shipped firmware) were not able to do low-power standby, which means
still being connected to the GSM and being able to receive calls/SMS but
be in a lower power state than full operation. This is/was supposed to
be the standby mode of the modem. And since this did not work, and
current measurements prove this to be quite likely, it was my assumption
that a later firmware would also address this problem.
If it does not then this would really be pityful. With only the GSM
sucking 20-40mA we will never reach any sane standby time.

> Michael
Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Michael Shiloh]

Nicolas Linkert wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:


So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
eater.


I was under the impression that the last modem update occured because
some SIM cards were not recognized. 


That is correct.



Is there a new update of the modem
planned that is going to deal with power management?



No. I've never heard of anything even remotely like this.

Michael

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

Now it's about 14 hours later and I'm seeing the same kind of numbers
from /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/chgcur:
800-1700.  I guess that means the battery is still not fully charged.

OK I'll reboot with the current probe installed and take some more measurements:

Initial poweron current is 280-290 mA, while the kernel messages are
scrolling by.  Then it goes up to 300-380 during the splash screen
period.  Near the end of the boot process it's 420 mA.  It didn't
finish booting because I need to do it through the boot menu, so I
power off.  It's now drawing 40mA while being turned off!  Disconnect
the battery, reconnect, and it's back to negligible current (0.12 mA
and falling) but now I cannot power it back on.  Plug in the USB and
it charges at 40mA.  Disconnect USB, I still cannot power it on.  OK
my Fluke has a resistance of 40 ohms in current mode, so that's why;
previous numbers are probably a bit low, because of the resistance,
and I will have to use an old analog meter.  With that one, on the
500mA range the total resistance across the current probe is 0.6 ohms,
that's more like it.

350mA at the boot prompt.  280-400mA while booting (fluctuates) with a
couple spikes to 500mA.  After booting it stays around 400mA mostly,
but I'm not running the UI yet and GSM should be off by default,
right?  I have to plug in USB so I can start up the UI, then unplug it
again... it goes to 500mA (and occasionally pegs the meter) then drops
back to 400mA after reaching steady state.  Battery meter applet shows
about 2/3 or so.  I select on the UI to power up GSM, and it doesn't
change the current much.  Select auto-register... OK it's going to
500mA more often.  Try to call the Neo from a land line... it's not
ringing or vibrating but current stays around 500mA until I hang up
the land line.  I verified using libgsmd-tool -m shell that GSM is
really on and connected and can receive calls.  Looks like the worst
case is 500mA but it doesn't stay there all the time.  Power off
GSM... it goes to maybe 360mA with some spikes to 400-something.  Try
to connect USB to turn off the backlight... it's misbehaving again.
UI is still up but not responding.  Current is steady at 420mA when I
disconnect USB.

I have not checked this old meter for how accurate it is.  It's a
Simpson 373.  Guess I'd better... OK Simpson in series with the Fluke,
plug in USB to make it boot, then remove USB, and because the boot
failed this time I got to a nice steady state of about 420mA discharge
current on the Simpson which reads 406mA on the Fluke.  Close enough.

I uploaded pictures of my measurement setup here:

http://ecloud.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=199

and a video of the process here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/HzqzlA8NE2Y

but at the moment it's still being processed by YouTube.  It is 20
megs and 4.5 minutes, and this is my first time using YouTube so we'll
see how long that takes.

On Jan 11, 2008 10:47 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yeah.  I wonder if the battery has deteriorated somehow (from the
> > phone running and being plugged in to USB for days or weeks at a time,
> > and being overcharged? but the power management chip should not
> > overcharge it, right?), or maybe it is not being fully charged.  I
> > consider it fully charged when it has been running, and plugged in to
> > USB, overnight.  I'm also wondering if my hub may be limiting it to
> > less than 500 mA though.  I need to measure the currents... both
> > battery current and USB current, in various states.
>
> Well I made a sort of "current probe" by gluing two pieces of very
> thin single-sided PCB material back-to-back (the result is thinner
> than any double-sided stuff I have at home).  I see -375mA (current
> coming out of the battery) as the usual load.  But when USB is plugged
> in, I see between -60 and -80 mA - current is still coming out of the
> battery.  So it's not getting charged; my hub must be limiting the
> current.  Let me plug in directly to my PC... OK now it's +25-+45mA,
> still fluctuating all over but charging the battery slowly.  I checked
> and it is in fast_cccv mode.  So I guess that means the USB current is
> probably 400mA or less... we have a load of 375mA plus some charge
> current is going into the battery, but the charge happens at a
> different voltage, but there is some loss in the charge circuit too.
> Now I unplug USB for a second and it goes to 450mA load current
> (coming out of the battery to run the phone).  OK 375 was lower than
> normal for some reason...
>
> So far that was running gllin, and logging data points, with the LCD
> and backlight on and showing the splash sc

Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nicolas Linkert]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
> eater.

I was under the impression that the last modem update occured because
some SIM cards were not recognized. Is there a new update of the modem
planned that is going to deal with power management?

Best regards,
Nicolas 

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah.  I wonder if the battery has deteriorated somehow (from the
> phone running and being plugged in to USB for days or weeks at a time,
> and being overcharged? but the power management chip should not
> overcharge it, right?), or maybe it is not being fully charged.  I
> consider it fully charged when it has been running, and plugged in to
> USB, overnight.  I'm also wondering if my hub may be limiting it to
> less than 500 mA though.  I need to measure the currents... both
> battery current and USB current, in various states.

Well I made a sort of "current probe" by gluing two pieces of very
thin single-sided PCB material back-to-back (the result is thinner
than any double-sided stuff I have at home).  I see -375mA (current
coming out of the battery) as the usual load.  But when USB is plugged
in, I see between -60 and -80 mA - current is still coming out of the
battery.  So it's not getting charged; my hub must be limiting the
current.  Let me plug in directly to my PC... OK now it's +25-+45mA,
still fluctuating all over but charging the battery slowly.  I checked
and it is in fast_cccv mode.  So I guess that means the USB current is
probably 400mA or less... we have a load of 375mA plus some charge
current is going into the battery, but the charge happens at a
different voltage, but there is some loss in the charge circuit too.
Now I unplug USB for a second and it goes to 450mA load current
(coming out of the battery to run the phone).  OK 375 was lower than
normal for some reason...

So far that was running gllin, and logging data points, with the LCD
and backlight on and showing the splash screen, but not running the
UI.  Not sure if GSM is on in that state or not.  OK I will try it
with a SIM installed, and running the UI...

BTW current discharge is about 8-12 mA with the phone turned off.
It's dropping a little over time.

While the UI starts up the battery is still discharging.  Now that
it's sitting at the main screen the current is about +35-+40mA,
charging the battery.  Well it's not receiving a call.

/sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/chgcur
fluctuates a lot too, from 693-2026 as I checked several times.  Tried
unplugging USB again to see the load current (coming out of the
battery when it's not charging); that is still 450mA.  But when I plug
it back in, USB is misbehaving:

usb 2-1.1: khubd timed out on ep0in len=0/64
usb 2-1.1: khubd timed out on ep0in len=0/64
usb 2-1.1: device descriptor read/64, error -110
usb 2-1.1: khubd timed out on ep0in len=0/64

and the battery current is -350mA (because it's taking 100mA from USB
by default, right).

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[joerg]

>  I was thinking of
> > cutting a strip of thin, double-sided PC board material and sticking
> > it between one battery contact and the corresponding phone contact,
> > then connect a current meter between the two planes of that strip.
Alu-stickytape applied on both sides of a thin plastic, e.g. from a medicine 
pills blister, makes a nice probe for spring loaded contacts. On one end, 
split the 2 Alutapes away from plastics to form a Y, so you can easily 
contact each aluplane with a usual probeclip.
If you can find copper-stickytape or thin copperfoil and doublesided sticky, 
you can even create a very convenient durable probe by soldering 2 wires to 
the 2 planes and fixating it with gaffatape around end of probe and wires.

cheers
jOERG


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Tim Niemeyer schrieb:
> Hallo Shawn,
Hi!

> * Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 14:19]:
>> Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
>> unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
>> than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
>> points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
>> without being connected - just sitting there idle.  And as others have
>> observed, if it is in more of a standby state, you still get mere
>> hours at best, right?  5 days seems wildly optimistic to me, but if
>> it's achieved it would be better than the average "smart" phone (all
>> OS's included).
> with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 5h 
> lifetime!
> 
> When i was GPS logging for OSM (Navit with map input from it's own
> output, was very nice), neo runs easily several hours!

That seems realistic, yes.

> Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.
> It was very surprising, and the actual power was very different from time
> to time. Sometimes neo booted and did draw about 400mA in idle. Sometimes only
> 280mA.

Yes, the runtime power is comparable dramatic - and about 50% of it is
caused by the LCD backlight. When reducing backlight brightness this can
dramatcally be decreased.

> In Standby mode it was exacly the same, but most the time it tooks
> ~80-95mA. Sometimes only 65mA!
> One time the neo did draw only about 20mA! Don't know what was
> different: booted -> standby -> 20mA! I think this 20mA was drawn by the
> GSM.

Right. If all other devices are properly switched off, only CPU is in
standby and SDRAM is in self-refresh then the device should not draw
more than ~4mA. A constant drain of 18mA or more from the GSM really
kills the battery life - 20mA means roughly 60 hours of standby, which
is acceptable but still not good.

In standby really every single mA makes a huge difference...

> Tim Niemeyer
Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Shawn,

* Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 15:02]:
> On Jan 10, 2008 2:40 PM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 
> > 5h lifetime!
sry, has you also realised, i mean 5day! ;-)

> What is your method of measuring the current?  I was thinking of
> cutting a strip of thin, double-sided PC board material and sticking
> it between one battery contact and the corresponding phone contact,
> then connect a current meter between the two planes of that strip.
Exacly as you described! ;-)
I have taken some pics:
http://mastersword.de/~reddog/neo/


Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973 - kernel 2.6.24

[Alexandre Ghisoli]

Le jeudi 10 janvier 2008 à 22:40 +0100, Tim Niemeyer a écrit :
> Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.
> It was very surprising, and the actual power was very different from time
> to time. Sometimes neo booted and did draw about 400mA in idle. Sometimes only
> 280mA.
> In Standby mode it was exacly the same, but most the time it tooks
> ~80-95mA. Sometimes only 65mA!
> One time the neo did draw only about 20mA! Don't know what was
> different: booted -> standby -> 20mA! I think this 20mA was drawn by the
> GSM.

Just to add on this topic, kernel 2.6.24 (tested -rc7) is really power
saving. On my laptop and 2.6.23.9, I cannot go under 9.7W while LCD
power on and laptop turned on.

With 2.6.24-rc7, I can goes down at 6.5W !

It seems that kernel has really nice power improvement ! And of course
HPET and dynamics ticks are required to wake up CPU less often.

And my tests showed the sound card eat 0.5W. The new AC97 path allow
standby when not used.

--alexandre


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 3:02 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2008 2:40 PM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 
> > 5h lifetime!
>
> It's supposed to be a 1200mAH battery, so 1200/5 is 240mA, to get a 5
> hour lifetime, right?

I just realized you meant 5 days.  10mA seems about right then in the
ideal case (battery is fully charged and really delivers 1200 mAH).

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:40 PM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 5h 
> lifetime!

It's supposed to be a 1200mAH battery, so 1200/5 is 240mA, to get a 5
hour lifetime, right?

> When i was GPS logging for OSM (Navit with map input from it's own
> output, was very nice), neo runs easily several hours!

That's more like it.  For me something is definitely wrong then.

> Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.

What is your method of measuring the current?  I was thinking of
cutting a strip of thin, double-sided PC board material and sticking
it between one battery contact and the corresponding phone contact,
then connect a current meter between the two planes of that strip.

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:31 PM, Lon Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   You are burning through a fully charged battery in 20 min running GPS?

Yeah.  I wonder if the battery has deteriorated somehow (from the
phone running and being plugged in to USB for days or weeks at a time,
and being overcharged? but the power management chip should not
overcharge it, right?), or maybe it is not being fully charged.  I
consider it fully charged when it has been running, and plugged in to
USB, overnight.  I'm also wondering if my hub may be limiting it to
less than 500 mA though.  I need to measure the currents... both
battery current and USB current, in various states.

Speaking of which, where can we get more batteries?  If it has not
deteriorated yet, it certainly will eventually.  The Nokia ones are
not quite compatible enough, are they?

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Shawn,

* Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 14:19]:
> Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
> unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
> than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
> points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
> without being connected - just sitting there idle.  And as others have
> observed, if it is in more of a standby state, you still get mere
> hours at best, right?  5 days seems wildly optimistic to me, but if
> it's achieved it would be better than the average "smart" phone (all
> OS's included).
with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 5h 
lifetime!

When i was GPS logging for OSM (Navit with map input from it's own
output, was very nice), neo runs easily several hours!

Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.
It was very surprising, and the actual power was very different from time
to time. Sometimes neo booted and did draw about 400mA in idle. Sometimes only
280mA.
In Standby mode it was exacly the same, but most the time it tooks
~80-95mA. Sometimes only 65mA!
One time the neo did draw only about 20mA! Don't know what was
different: booted -> standby -> 20mA! I think this 20mA was drawn by the
GSM.

> 
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Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Lon Lentz]

  You are burning through a fully charged battery in 20 min running GPS?

On Jan 10, 2008 4:19 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
> unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
> than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
> points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
>
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
without being connected - just sitting there idle.  And as others have
observed, if it is in more of a standby state, you still get mere
hours at best, right?  5 days seems wildly optimistic to me, but if
it's achieved it would be better than the average "smart" phone (all
OS's included).

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Lon Lentz]

  It's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to properly test the hardware
in a hardware/software system when the software that the hardware is
depending on is incomplete and bug ridden.


On Jan 10, 2008 12:16 PM, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> While that's true, it was pretty clearly implied (I'm not going to dig
> far enough to see if it was explicitly stated) that these were
> software issues.  Also, 'yet' pretty clearly implies that the problem
> is expected to be temporary.
>
> 
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Maciej Kaniewski writes:
>...
>What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
>
>   - reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>   - reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>   - integrated GPRS data access
>   - bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>   - proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>   - ringtone (or other) profile management
>   - network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>   ...)
>   - a complete application framework where third party application
>   developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
>
>
>As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone

While that's true, it was pretty clearly implied (I'm not going to dig
far enough to see if it was explicitly stated) that these were
software issues.  Also, 'yet' pretty clearly implies that the problem
is expected to be temporary.

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nkoli]

On Jan 10, 2008 5:41 AM, Nils Faerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
> standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
> days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
> realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
> not very good but acceptable.
>

5 days of standby is more than acceptable. Heck 3 days of standby is about
average for smart phones nowadays. Every phone I've had for the past four
years has gotten charged on a mostly daily basis, so if this is the hardware
bug, it puts the neo in line with many other smart phones.
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Re: power management on Neo1973

[rakshat hooja]

Hey, I  am not even thinking of sending the phone back anywhere. I love it.
Was just trying to clarify what i had been reading on the IRC and the list.

It would have been great if suspend could have worked perfectly on on the
Neo1973 (ever in the future) -an added bonus that allowed one to not worry
about deep discharge, take the Neo away from the computer and show to other
interested people.

That being said people do read the wiki page before buying and also note

"To clarify some misconceptions about what this is, please read this
article.

The product status is the *earliest possible time in development* at which
we can provide* functional hardware*  (italics added by Rakshat) with a very
early, very incomplete software stack"

This need to be corrected if power management is a hardware problem.

Also the portion where it says "no reasonable battery life yet" gives the
impression that there will be reasonable battery life in the future.

I will edit the wiki but only after i get some confirmation for OM or FIC
that it is indeed a hardware problem.
Rakshat




-- Forwarded message --
> From: "Nicolas Linkert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:47:10 +0100
> Subject: Re: Power Management on Neo1973
> Hi,
>
> I sent this to FIC:
>
> 
> before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it],
> I'll need to find out the following:
>
> Question:
> "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
> closed
> etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
> Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
> this?"
>
> Answer:
> "I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo
> parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related,
> otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the
> Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."
>
> This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
> (Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
> need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
> the case, then I would like to give my phone back.
>
> Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
> -
>
> The answer I got:
>
> "The answer is correct."
>
> So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
> EUR 300,00 wasted ...
>
> Best regards,
> Nicolas
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Maciej Kaniewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List for OpenMoko community discussion"  >
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:02:47 +
> Subject: Re: Power Management on Neo1973
>
> Hi,
> from openmoko.com shop page :
>
> WARNING: Developers only! Please note that the OpenMoko products are not
> meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this
> time. Read this wiki 
> article<http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Developer_preview>to find more 
> technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
> devices.
>
> ... and when you follow the link you can find
> ...
> What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
>
>- reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>- reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>- integrated GPRS data access
>- bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>- ringtone (or other) profile management
>- network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>...)
>- a complete application framework where third party application
>developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
>
>
> As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone
>
> Maciej
>
> On 10/01/2008, Nicolas Linkert < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I sent this to FIC:
> >
> > 
> > before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it],
> > I'll need to find out the following:
> >
> > Question:
> > "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> > the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> > s

Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Nicolas Linkert schrieb:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
>> If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
>> standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
>> days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
>> realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
>> not very good but acceptable.
> 
> 5 days would be acceptable, I think
>  
>> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
>> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
>> eater.
> 
> How do you apply the modem firmware? Can I do this myself? Or is this a
> case of sending the device to FIC and thye're doing it for me? 

That is currently sorted out... OpenMoko people are negptiating
licensing agreements and contracts for this so that end users can do the
upgrade themselves.

Stay tuned!

And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
firmware will also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be
caused by the firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.

> Best regards,
> Nicolas
Cheers
  nils faerber

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