Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-21 Thread Owen DeLong 
list - so 
>> re-sending
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> _
>> From: Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com 
>> <mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...
>> To: Sander Steffann <san...@steffann.nl <mailto:san...@steffann.nl>>, Marcus 
>> K. G. Adomey <mado...@hotmail.com <mailto:mado...@hotmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> Markus -
>> 
>> You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in -
>> 
>> I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues
>> I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is 
>> well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members 
>> the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members
>> I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our 
>> dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the 
>> organization is meant to serve
>> I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times 
>> adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved
>> I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and 
>> to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may 
>> threaten the organization
>> I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute 
>> to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely 
>> serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our 
>> continent.
>> I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly 
>> defined in section 3 of the bylaws.
>> 
>> That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - 
>> tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after 
>> all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and 
>> builds consensus?
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-21 Thread Andrew Alston 
Oh, and I forgot to add, to all the statements I agreed with in the previous 
email about things that I did - +1, x 1000 (since that seems to be the 
instruction given to others)

Andrew

From: ALAIN AINA <aal...@trstech.net>
Date: Saturday, 22 July 2017 at 01:28
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...


Andrew,

Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the archives 
are available:

a) There was a Mr Alston  before  board mandate
b)There was a Mr Alston  2014 -2017
c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017

The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the anti-RPKI, 
etc….

and b) came in and :

* Promoted  AFRINIC governance as Top-Down
* Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency
* Company act evangelist
* Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members)  private company. Other 
members have limited powers, Community has none
* Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during the 
last accountability review
* Supported  adopting changes  to bylaws for accountability review by vote on 
multiple resolutions instead of working out  a coherent consensual  draft 
bylaws.
* Opposed Board member recall by members and community
* Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC
* Authored some controversial policy proposals
* etc..

And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost:

  *Dealing  with simple community member position subject  to past board 
member's NDA and reserve obligations
  * Suffering from the Top-down  governance  enjoyed  during  b)
  *Want all the powers to members and even Community
 * Want 300% transparency
  *Want 400% accountability
  * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place
  * Want a ASO members recall  procedure
  * Want Mgmt audits published.
  * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR
  * Concerned  by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC
 * Etc….

I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside the 
community. Hope you can manage.

—Alain


On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston 
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so 
re-sending

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
_
From: Andrew Alston 
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...
To: Sander Steffann <san...@steffann.nl<mailto:san...@steffann.nl>>, Marcus K. 
G. Adomey <mado...@hotmail.com<mailto:mado...@hotmail.com>>

Markus -

You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in -

I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues
I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well 
spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees 
as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members
I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - 
that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the 
organization is meant to serve
I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times 
adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved
I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to 
be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may 
threaten the organization
I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to 
the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to 
protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent.
I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly 
defined in section 3 of the bylaws.

That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - 
tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after 
all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds 
consensus?

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-21 Thread Andrew Alston 
 in where we were flirting with outright bankruptcy – as is 
clearly indicated in the financials which shows that a.) we had zero reserve 
b.) we were hemorrhaging money and making large scale losses.

  * Concerned  by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC

Again – 100% true – and again – I stand by that – for sound business reason.  
When companies make decisions as to vendors or suppliers (which is what AFRINIC 
is), they will buy from where they get value.  When fees are 20 times the fees 
charged by another RIR and the RIR charging 20 times the fees is not adding any 
additional benefit beyond their competition – there is a problem – and it may 
well explain the large number of north African RIR’s who are registering with 
RIPE even though they get such a limited amount of space.  Please go and look 
at the RIPE database on the number of Tunisian organisations who are getting 
their space not from AFRINIC but from RIPE.  This I attribute to the price 
differential – which I argue ends up hurting AFRINIC.

So finally alain, I am confused – I am confused by the baseless accusations 
with zero substantiation – I am confused that when the community wanted 
INDIVIDUALS gone – they chose to attack specific areas – but when those 
individuals went – the attacks on the AREAS disappeared – which proves that 
they were targeting individuals and not good corporate governance and not solid 
financial management and not transparency.  I am confused that the community 
demanded that power be put in their hands – and when it was offered on a 
platter turned and rejected it.  I am confused at a community where a segment 
of the community chose to up and walk out of the room when election results did 
not go their way for multiple successive elections – and the video footage will 
stand testament to what I am saying.  I am confused at a community that sends 
people to the microphone with scraps of papers to state positions – but when 
the same people who stand with those scraps of paper are called back to the 
microphone and questioned on their statements – it becomes clear that they did 
not write what was on those scraps of paper nor did they fully understand what 
they were saying – they were messengers – and the message fell apart when 
questioned (Please see Pointe Noir video footage for clear evidence of this, 
and again in Botswana).

Yes – There is much that confuses me – but I have always managed – and will 
continue to do so.

Andrew


On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston 
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so 
re-sending

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
_
From: Andrew Alston 
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...
To: Sander Steffann <san...@steffann.nl<mailto:san...@steffann.nl>>, Marcus K. 
G. Adomey <mado...@hotmail.com<mailto:mado...@hotmail.com>>

Markus -

You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in -

I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues
I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well 
spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees 
as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members
I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - 
that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the 
organization is meant to serve
I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times 
adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved
I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to 
be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may 
threaten the organization
I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to 
the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to 
protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent.
I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly 
defined in section 3 of the bylaws.

That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - 
tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after 
all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds 
consensus?

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-21 Thread Bukola Fawole 
+100

On Jul 21, 2017 6:29 PM, "ALAIN AINA" <aal...@trstech.net> wrote:

>
> Andrew,
>
> Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the
> archives are available:
>
> a) There was a Mr Alston  before  board mandate
> b)There was a Mr Alston  2014 -2017
> c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017
>
> The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the
> anti-RPKI, etc….
>
> and b) came in and :
>
> * Promoted  AFRINIC governance as Top-Down
> * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency
> * Company act evangelist
> * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members)  private company.
> Other members have limited powers, Community has none
> * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during
> the last accountability review
> * Supported  adopting changes  to bylaws for accountability review by vote
> on multiple resolutions instead of working out  a coherent consensual
>  draft bylaws.
> * Opposed Board member recall by members and community
> * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC
> * Authored some controversial policy proposals
> * etc..
>
> And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost:
>
>   *Dealing  with simple community member position subject  to past board
> member's NDA and reserve obligations
>   * Suffering from the Top-down  governance  enjoyed  during  b)
>   *Want all the powers to members and even Community
>  * Want 300% transparency
>   *Want 400% accountability
>   * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place
>   * Want a ASO members recall  procedure
>   * Want Mgmt audits published.
>   * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR
>   * Concerned  by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC
>  * Etc….
>
> I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside
> the community. Hope you can manage.
>
> —Alain
>
>
> On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list -
> so re-sending
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> _
> From: Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...
> To: Sander Steffann <san...@steffann.nl>, Marcus K. G. Adomey <
> mado...@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Markus -
>
> You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am
> in -
>
> I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues
> I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is
> well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members
> the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members
> I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our
> dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the
> organization is meant to serve
> I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times
> adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved
> I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law
> and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which
> may threaten the organization
> I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute
> to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely
> serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our
> continent.
> I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly
> defined in section 3 of the bylaws.
>
> That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please
> - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me -
> after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems
> and builds consensus?
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-12 Thread Badru Ntege 
So Andrew

Some of my comments will be directed to you in this response since your 
submission was directed at the community

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Jul 2017, at 17:41, Andrew Alston 
> wrote:

Hi All,

I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this 
community every day.


  1.  This community cried for transparency – in response – they got the board 
minutes.  As I have pointed out in previous emails – those minutes do not 
contain all the information – and in fact, under the Mauritian code of 
corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be 
published to create full transparency which is not happening.  I have raised 
this on the list – the community has remained silent – this makes me question 
if it was really transparency this community was looking for – or was it 
ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past?


even the community has its limits. When the people we elected to serve us 
suddenly become our masters we save our energies and wait to remove them 
through the ballot we hoped board would give us a fresh leadership out of the 9 
members they have but we got the status quo again



  1.
  2.  This community is confronted with legal opinion – that clearly and 
demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk – yet 
members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and 
proceed anyway – in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary 
duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of 
a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of 
solid corporate governance – this is a contradiction in terms

With all respect legal opinion can be subjective. It was the board actions that 
prompted the need for a governance committee. We might not want to re open 
those pages but I'm sure you understand


  1.
  2.  In the Mauritian meeting – the community was faced with 20 special 
resolutions – they chose to vote against the vast majority of those – despite 
having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a 
review about areas that need to be fixed.

???really



  1.
 *   To illustrate this point – one of those resolutions would have bound a 
sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship 
expired – and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special 
resolution has now created a serious problem – should a director leaving the 
board refuse to return his company membership – there is now a vote – from this 
community – affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so.  In 
effective – voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered 
membership status into perpetuity.  I might point out that the rights and 
powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of 
any normal member.

More reason to compel the Mauritius authorities our hosts to create a special 
category for AfriNIC or find a jurisdiction that will we have over 50 options.

By the way Andrew have you rescinded your membership???



  1.
 *
  2.  For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the 
financials – yet – now – when questions are asked specifically for detailed 
information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials – the same 
people who attacked for so long – sit silent and have not a word to say – again 
– is this because they weren’t actually after financial transparency and were 
simply looking for ammunition?  Or is there another reason for it?

Are we reading the same mailing list ???



Basically – what I see is various members of this community that want to make 
selective demands on the company and the board – when it suits them – when they 
need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing – but once that agenda 
fades – they go completely silent.

What I am saying is – if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is 
subject to this community who elects them  - the only way we can do that is to 
be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity – 
rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us.

Really – I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this 
community – and I’d really like to better understand it.

So Andrew your submission over the last few years is that you went to the board 
to deliver transparency and one of your relection claims were that you are the 
one that brought out the transparency.  Are you telling us that the day you 
left the board did a complete U turn on all your good work ??



Andrew

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

2017-07-11 Thread Marcus K. G. Adomey 
Hi Andrew,

If you are confused with the stand of the community, it means that you are out 
of the community orbit. This community seems to know what matters and folks  
they can follow


Thanks



Marcus

Get Outlook for Android


From: Andrew Alston 
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:39:28 PM
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion...

Hi All,

I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this 
community every day.


  1.  This community cried for transparency – in response – they got the board 
minutes.  As I have pointed out in previous emails – those minutes do not 
contain all the information – and in fact, under the Mauritian code of 
corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be 
published to create full transparency which is not happening.  I have raised 
this on the list – the community has remained silent – this makes me question 
if it was really transparency this community was looking for – or was it 
ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past?
  2.  This community is confronted with legal opinion – that clearly and 
demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk – yet 
members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and 
proceed anyway – in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary 
duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of 
a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of 
solid corporate governance – this is a contradiction in terms
  3.  In the Mauritian meeting – the community was faced with 20 special 
resolutions – they chose to vote against the vast majority of those – despite 
having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a 
review about areas that need to be fixed.
 *   To illustrate this point – one of those resolutions would have bound a 
sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship 
expired – and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special 
resolution has now created a serious problem – should a director leaving the 
board refuse to return his company membership – there is now a vote – from this 
community – affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so.  In 
effective – voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered 
membership status into perpetuity.  I might point out that the rights and 
powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of 
any normal member.
  4.  For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the 
financials – yet – now – when questions are asked specifically for detailed 
information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials – the same 
people who attacked for so long – sit silent and have not a word to say – again 
– is this because they weren’t actually after financial transparency and were 
simply looking for ammunition?  Or is there another reason for it?


Basically – what I see is various members of this community that want to make 
selective demands on the company and the board – when it suits them – when they 
need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing – but once that agenda 
fades – they go completely silent.

What I am saying is – if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is 
subject to this community who elects them  - the only way we can do that is to 
be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity – 
rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us.

Really – I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this 
community – and I’d really like to better understand it.

Andrew

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