CLARIFICATION: RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
I hope no one thought that I meant that only PMC members can change Wiki content. My proposal still involves the public being able to change Wiki, just centralizing the oversight. Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: O'brien, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:01 PM To: community@apache.org Subject: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy -- related to community Community@ archives are available on Eyebrowse, and for someone not involved in those debates they record a several pretty important discussions. I won't mention any names, but I think it is time to prove that this list is more than a big filibuster. Maybe in the process we can bring some people back to the community@ list through action not words. Please come back. Why would anyone ever think that a discussion of ASF policy on Instant Messaging is something not to make visible? Eyebrowse archives solve these problems -- I only hope that lists not currently archived aren't keeping good discourse secret. ( ACTUALLY, now that I think about it, the Instant Messaging policy discussion is an example of highly ironic secrecy . Take a read, and think about that: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=community@ apache.orgmsg No=1104 ) -- a SOLUTION for WIKI NOTE: I feel terrible about making this proposal, as I wasn't involved in setting Wiki up, and if the proposal is accepted, it will mean real work for somebody else. It might be possible for me to soon rejoin infrastructure and volunteer to lend a hand, but we'll see about that. Oversight of content relating to a specific PMC should be the repsonsibility of said PMC. It is clear that PMCs like Jakarta and James want a Wiki. It is not clear that PMCs like HTTP Server or Web Service have any Wiki content as of yet. ( DISCLAIMER: I don't speak for any PMCs, I am not a member of any PMC. I am observing the page HomePage. ) Say, that PMCs are made responsible for policing content, this would require someone from the HTTP PMC to become a RecentChanges watcher EVEN THOUGH her PMC has zero content on the ApacheWiki. Therefore, I propose a hierarchy of Wikis. Every Wiki has a set of dedicated WikiAdmins who enforce strict definitions of scope. The ApacheWiki will remain with it's 3 official WikiAdmins, and a separate instance of UseModWiki or SubWiki will be installed for each PMC which opts to create a Wiki. PMCs are accountable to the Board, and making PMCs responsible for Wiki content will close the accountability loop. This would also centralize oversight for each PMC, (for example) an Avalon UseMod or SubWiki instance can be set up, and individuals responsible for enforcing scope and content regulations will be able to check a wiki specific RecentChanges page for only Avalon. This would also allow for an opportunity to experiment with different Wiki technologies - much like different PMCs have different websites. Allowing for heterogenous technologies, will also make it easier for PMCs to experiment with different patches to UseMod, SubWiki, PhpWiki, Twiki, etc.. A PMC can choose not to have a Wiki. In this case, if an individual attempts to post content related to that PMC, it will be the responsibility of the ApacheWiki admins to remove the content and inform the PMC in question. Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:28 PM To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: Wiki - we have a problem :) On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: Are we now going to have similar oversight over the mailing lists and archives ? If someone posts a pointer to warez or porn on one of the lists - are we going to have to remove it from archives ? We have, in my opinion, sufficient oversight on the mailing list already: - Mailing list are clearly assigned to specific commiter groups or pmcs; who is responsible is clear. - Most, if not all, of the committers and PMC members are subscribed to the mailing list and are clearly reading their mail. - We have moderation in place, and developer lists generally have clear and well defined scopes which are visibly policed. - We see active policing of totally off topic data. This is quite in contrast to the -current- wiki site; where we lack clear mapping of sections to PMC's or commiter groups, where we have yet no clear indication that any and all changes are actively followed by the majority of the committers in that section and no clear scoping. Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Oversight of content relating to a specific PMC should be the repsonsibility of said PMC. That is one view. There may be others. I believe that there is interest in having a consensus on policy first, and then a solution. Not too many people have spoken up one way or another on that issue. It is not clear that PMCs like [Web Service] have any Wiki content as of yet. FWIW, they do. Therefore, I propose a hierarchy of Wikis. Actually, I think that the topology is better viewed as a (potentially heterogeneous) network of federated wikis rather than a hierarchy. :-) The ApacheWiki will remain with it's 3 official WikiAdmins The three WikiAdmins are neither official nor representatives of a proper oversight body. The most logical group would be those who are responsible for the site module, and I don't believe that they want it. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Oversight of content relating to a specific PMC should be the repsonsibility of said PMC. That is one view. There may be others. I understand, and I don't mean to silence discussion at all. Just trying to offer a very concrete proposal. It is not clear that PMCs like [Web Service] have any Wiki content as of yet. FWIW, they do. Thank you, I stand corrected. Let's consider HTTP and APR. Therefore, I propose a hierarchy of Wikis. Actually, I think that the topology is better viewed as a (potentially heterogeneous) network of federated wikis rather than a hierarchy. :-) That also sounds very good, The Apache Federation of Wikis. Maybe we can shorten that to The Federation - what's next uniforms :-) You are right, hierarchy makes it sound like one Wiki is better than another wiki. Federation is more in tune with the concept of cooperation and collaboration. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote: The three WikiAdmins are neither official nor representatives of a proper oversight body. The most logical group would be those who are responsible for the site module, and I don't believe that they want it. Well - the PMC's could each volunteer one wiki admin; just like we now have mailing list moderator volunteers - and delegate the task to them. Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Dirk-Willem van Gulik: Noel J. Bergman wrote: The three WikiAdmins are neither official nor representatives of a proper oversight body. The most logical group would be those who are responsible for the site module, and I don't believe that they want it. Well - the PMC's could each volunteer one wiki admin; just like we now have mailing list moderator volunteers - and delegate the task to them. I don't mean for the per-PMC Wiki oversight. I was refering to his suggestion that the three current WikiAdmins would continue to monitor the current Wiki after the per-PMC Wiki would be installed. My understanding is that according to the per-PMC Wiki policy, unless a PMC wants oversight of a Wiki, it won't exist. The current Wiki, not being under any PMC oversight, would go away. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
My understanding ... The current Wiki, not being under any PMC oversight, would go away. I hope we don't tear down the current one for a bit, make sure the PMC owned ones are a functional replacement. Put some markings on the current one. Move content, leave interlinks. Try to nudge people over to those, etc. I'd be reluctant to rush to garbage collect. If one's lucky then no toes need get stepped on, just a transition to - what appears to me to be - a better model. - ben - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
I hope we don't tear down the current one for a bit, make sure the PMC owned ones are a functional replacement. I understand your concern about data loss, and share it. See my comment about starting the new ones as clones of the current one. And no need to take down the old one (maybe make it read-only because of oversight concerns?) until the PMCs say that they're done. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I hope we don't tear down the current one for a bit, make sure the PMC owned ones are a functional replacement. I understand your concern about data loss, and share it. See my comment about starting the new ones as clones of the current one. And no need to take down the old one (maybe make it read-only because of oversight concerns?) until the PMCs say that they're done. Thinking about it some more. I guess my concern is less about the data and more about the people. I'm most concerned about pulling the rug out from under people having fun before their a place they can move their fun to. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Thinking about it some more. I guess my concern is less about the data and more about the people. I'm most concerned about pulling the rug out from under people having fun before their a place they can move their fun to. I'm sure we can make the migration work. :-) We wouldn't remove any content until after the new Wiki are in place, along with the interwiki setup. Then we'd go to the old Wiki and insert #REDIRECT directives to point to our new Wiki. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
