Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:02:44PM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > Hi Martin, Hi Nikolaus, > Am 30.12.2011 um 20:01 schrieb Martin Jansa: > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> It seems to me that there are two problems. > >> > >> First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the > >> hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some > >> non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are > >> selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited > >> and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been > >> available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. > >> > >> Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article > >> about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I > >> miss it?). > >> > >> Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the > >> second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). > >> > >> I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not > >> looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack > >> on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an > >> LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers > >> package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed > >> next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment > >> to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for > >> this?). > > > > I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only > > to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer > > something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). > > > > So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with > > high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and > > lack of keyboard. > > > > Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better > > hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 > > platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. > > If you ever have tried to hack on a GTA04 you will love it as your single > platform :) I hope I will, but old GTA02 board still has some value, similar my old Sharp Spitz which is still running and used from time to time. > > Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is > > much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on > > something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from > > Well, there are external bluetooth keyboards for 39 EUR of approx. the same > size as the GTA... This makes it quite impossible to develop a keyboard > at comparable price. Yes I have one of these, but try to use it in a train for longer time, usually you have to hold keyboard with both hands to type with thumbs and then phone screen is too far in your lap or you try to hold phone closer to eyes while typing one hand with keyboard balancing in your lap - not so good for longer texts with lots of special characters :). > > GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? > > Yes, the idea is to make a replacement case around the existing display > and PCB. > > > In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of > > completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). > > That is not the idea behind the GTA04. It is designed as a motherboard > upgrade and if we want to completely design a new phone it would be > quite different. We simply have quite complex technical limitations. Being able to reuse as much components from GTA02 is definitely big plus and works great for people who like GTA02 case. I'm just saying that maybe there is a lot of potentional customers which would be even more interested in GTA04 if they can expect to use it in different case later (even if the case is then for another 250e). > > I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people > > who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an > > option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. > > Currently we can't give that because we don't see how we can make > a completely new device cheaper than one that reuses some parts. > > > If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is > > some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I > > think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it > > and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while > > still keeping their GTA02. > > That is what I don't understand - why would someone want to keep the > GTA02 in operation... For me it was mostly to keep GTA02 supported by SHR, but as I said before I still keep Spitz in operation even with more powerfull devices available to me e.g. N900 (maybe because of 3 extra rows of keys and all special characters
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Martin, Am 30.12.2011 um 20:01 schrieb Martin Jansa: > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: >> Hi, >> >> It seems to me that there are two problems. >> >> First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the >> hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some >> non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are >> selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited >> and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been >> available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. >> >> Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article >> about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I >> miss it?). >> >> Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the >> second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). >> >> I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not >> looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack >> on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an >> LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers >> package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed >> next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment >> to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for >> this?). > > I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only > to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer > something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). > > So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with > high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and > lack of keyboard. > > Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better > hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 > platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. If you ever have tried to hack on a GTA04 you will love it as your single platform :) > Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is > much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on > something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from Well, there are external bluetooth keyboards for 39 EUR of approx. the same size as the GTA... This makes it quite impossible to develop a keyboard at comparable price. > GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? Yes, the idea is to make a replacement case around the existing display and PCB. > In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of > completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). That is not the idea behind the GTA04. It is designed as a motherboard upgrade and if we want to completely design a new phone it would be quite different. We simply have quite complex technical limitations. > I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people > who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an > option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. Currently we can't give that because we don't see how we can make a completely new device cheaper than one that reuses some parts. > If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is > some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I > think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it > and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while > still keeping their GTA02. That is what I don't understand - why would someone want to keep the GTA02 in operation... Either the GTA04 is so good that you don't need the GTA02 any more or you would not need a new GTA04 :) Well, we don't have enough devices out there to prove it, so I can understand that one hesitates to believe it. This is why we plan to demonstrate the GTA04 at FOSDEM (if we get a stand). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
I just got an idea. Maybe it is not very good, but I will mention it anyway. Imagine if the GTA04 board could be available for different cases, so that people owning a HTC could "free" their devices Maybe this is not feasible, but could increase the marked if done right. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > Hi, > > It seems to me that there are two problems. > > First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the > hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some > non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are > selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited > and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been > available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. > > Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article > about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I > miss it?). > > Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the > second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). > > I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not > looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack > on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an > LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers > package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed > next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment > to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for > this?). I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and lack of keyboard. Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while still keeping their GTA02. Regards, -- Martin 'JaMa' Jansa jabber: martin.ja...@gmail.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
2011/12/29 Neal H. Walfield : > First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the > hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some > non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are > selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited > and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been > available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. In my opinion the GTA02 requirement is the unfortunate limiting factor (in additition to lack of publicity, but it perhaps wouldn't help to enough extent with the GTA02 requirement). That, and the fact that many GTA02 buyers are not _that_ interested in GTA04 as they could and should be. This is just speculation, but I believe that since FreeRunner was well advertised, too well from some perspectives, it was bought by many people expecting a working phone out-of-the-box, freedom issues important but secondary. They got disappointed over a long period of problems, and possibly lost their hope for similar "free phone" efforts since Om Inc also stopped phone business and years passed. Another big part of the FreeRunner owners are people interested in general in "cool hackable devices", and in 2008 FreeRunner was IMHO easily the coolest hackable and own OS installable mobile computer device in existence. The freedomness was a plus but not necessarily the driving factor for the big mass of FreeRunner buyers. Now there is a multitude of cool hackable devices - Pandaboard, Raspberry Pi and many others, in addition to mainstream phone devices like at least Nokia N9 which also can be run with alternative OS like Mer/Nemo(/SHR/Debian), while the default OS is very hackable Debianish GNU/Linux as well. They are free enough for many of the original FreeRunner buyers, I'd believe. Both of these groups, I think, have the majority of currently available GTA02:s ie. the target group for GTA04 buyers, but the devices are possibly sleeping in the drawers while a lot of other cool hacker devices are out there. GTA04 is just one another option, and it has the minus side of not being the coolest gadget of 2012, unless you are interested in precisely 100% free software phone, while the GTA02 interest group who also ended up buying GTA02 was larger. The GTA02 case was also kind of cool or at least ok in 2008, but nowadays to make similar "wow" effect you'd need GTA04 to be not just an expensive motherboard upgrade to an used and old pretty bulky external case from 2008. And as mentioned, still a few people also have FreeRunner as a functional, primary phone, and they can't risk it. I have two FreeRunners and also N9 so I could "risk" mine and ordered a piece of GTA04 group order of course. Also notable is that I didn't even consider doing the motherboard upgrade myself, but ordered the service from Golden Delicious. The various marketing ideas seem great, since GTA04 is a _really_ cool device for many user/hacker groups. I just fear the GTA02 requirement problem doesn't go away since it's very hard to reach current GTA02 owners so that they could eg. pass their GTA02 on if they're not interested themselves of buying GTA04. -Timo (btw: I can let go of my other FreeRunner, GTA02a5, for just postage costs + eg. 10/15€ extra if it helps to get another GTA04 buyer. It has a slight screen related problem which shouldn't cause too much grief though: it requires a small plastic piece to be in place between screen and case that adds a bit of pressure so that touch works fluently - but it has been working nicely for over a year after I discovered the workaround. you can also of course just order a new screen together with GTA04) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:50:40 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" wrote: > Curious about your ideas, If I were thinking about joining the group tour, I'd be waiting for confirmation from the early adopters that the device really worked as a phone. The freerunner was plagued with little hardware bugs which meant various bits didn't quite work perfectly. I wouldn't want to repeat that. Clearly most of the hardware does work and calls can be made but as a potential purchaser I would want to be hearing things like: - I used my gta04 to call my girl friend and she didn't complain about the sound quality. - I can browse the web over UMTS and it is quite usable - I only need to charge the battery every other day. That last one is the biggest hole in our story currently. We have no evidence that we can achieve appropriate power saving. I suspect we can but as yet we cannot demonstrate it. If I were buying I'd wait until it could be demonstrated. Others probably think very differently to me, but that I what I would be thinking. NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Neal, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:18 schrieb Neal H. Walfield: > Hi, > > It seems to me that there are two problems. > > First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the > hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some > non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are > selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited > and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been > available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. I understand. > Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article > about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I > miss it?). Well, we are not enough people in the core team to write and submit articles to all the important magazines. And, we are not good at writing... There have been attempts to do that, but it appears that the magazines are simply ignoring the GTA04 project. In Germany, neither Heise.de nor Golem.de did take the story although they got some tips. There has been some minor coverage, e.g. http://www.google.de/search?tbm=nws&btnmeta_news_search=1&q=openmoko And, I tried to submit a hot tip to http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/s/News/ but their "contactus" link is severely broken. This is IMHO an area where the community could easily help! > Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the > second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). > > I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not > looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack > on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an > LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers > package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed > next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment While a GTA04 can even work without LCD or case (just bend a staple to hold the battery and power through USB), such a kit with case is of course much better. > to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for > this?). I have a new idea and have planned to do some first evaluation next week. It may become a real community solution where everyone could become able to order an existing case or even a modified one (source code will be provided). We need of course provide the "missing pieces" like UMTS/GPS antenna, speakers, vibracall motor. BR, NIkolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). Thanks, Neal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
