Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I realize the 850mhz issue is complex and you can't give an answer right away, but I'd like to know when we could expect one? I'm one of the many North American's who needs the 850 band, and If I know it's coming I'm going to start doing some software dev, if it's not I'll start looking elsewhere. -Will On Nov 7, 2007 2:29 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was a little imprecise here. The circuit design, and thus board layout, is what limits the handset to 3 bands. The components selected (along with firmware and certification) select the 900/1800/1900MHz bands. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Michael said above that it was a question of a physical hardware change: The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Board layout is a hardware issue. On 11/6/07, *Tim Shannon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 03:36, Jon wrote: I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. Afaik the first GSM phones all used 900Mhz. Some time later the 1800 and 1900 frequencies where added. The 850 frequency was introduced far later, I guess that's because the 900 band is used for something else in the US, at least, I hope that's the reason. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo case-modding ? (was Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The centered, 4.5 Diag *Finger Touch* screen with one thumb width of grip space on either end of a basically rectangular device is a Golden Form Factor. Interesting, so we got it almost right ? Screen size is of course different, but you could probably case-mod the rest. Replace the GSM antenna, cut off one speaker, put the GPS antenna in its place, put it all in a new slimmer and sexier case. Voila, there is your iNeo :-) One gotcha: the GPS antenna would end up at a much worse spot. - Werner ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I was a little imprecise here. The circuit design, and thus board layout, is what limits the handset to 3 bands. The components selected (along with firmware and certification) select the 900/1800/1900MHz bands. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Michael said above that it was a question of a physical hardware change: The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Board layout is a hardware issue. On 11/6/07, *Tim Shannon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
ian douglas wrote: I don't want to start another thread like the other guy did a few months back bout convince me to keep my Neo but now I've got two major strikes against me using this phone. What's next? Ahhh...There's nothing like achieving infamy to start my morning off right. Seriously though, this is VERY bad news for western hemisphere participation in the OpenMoko project. I will repeat my earlier exhortation to FIC and the project: The Apple iPhone *HAS* changed the public's perceptions of what a small, personal communication enabled pocket computer is capable of doing and how it can make their lives easier and keep them up to date and in touch with all that interests them. And after using mine for 60 days now, I am *CONVINCED* that Apple has hit upon a nearly perfect form factor and device interaction model. The centered, 4.5 Diag *Finger Touch* screen with one thumb width of grip space on either end of a basically rectangular device is a Golden Form Factor. Yes, there are things I would change and things I would add and I am compiling a list, and YES, the fact that this thing's software is NOT open source makes me nuts! Once more with feeling now: In my humble opinion, FIC needs to scrap the GTA01/02 form factor and redesign it to closely match the iPhone's front face. This would give MORE room inside for the boards and battery than the current stretched doughnut design.At the very least, if FIC is seriously going to put the GTA02 into production, they should start a separate design team on an iPhone clone project immediately. And for Tiny Tim's sake, let's use that extra room to enable all four bands this time, OK? Ahhh... Infamy. Alan Original Message: - From: ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:53:17 -0800 To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Agreed, I'm in California as well, and though I bought a pre-paid T Mobile card, it doesn't work either because of the 3G issue. It would seem the 850 issue plus the 3G issue has just 'bricked' my Neo (in a metaphorical sense) without me writing a single line of code. And given that the GTA02 will have the same 850 issue, plus that we haven't heard any new news on the 3G firmware upgrade for quite a while, my dream of developing for the Neo is starting to fade away. (Michael informed us back on Oct 13th that they were just working out the 'distribution terms' for giving us a firmware patch -- what's the status?) I don't want to start another thread like the other guy did a few months back bout convince me to keep my Neo but now I've got two major strikes against me using this phone. What's next? -id Tupshin Harper wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
First, thanks to Michael for giving the update. It is never good to have to be the bearer of bad news. However, this is huge! My probability of purchasing just dropped from 95% to about ~5%. I'm getting ready to move and not knowing what my coverage will be like in those areas is definitely a deal killer. I occasionally do some international travel and also spend time in more rural areas so quad-band coverage is an absolute must have (not just something I want for the warm fuzzies). I'm not going to be overly critical, but how does this just slip through the cracks? Although somewhat marginal, quad-band chipsets do cost more than tri-band. It just seems really really weird that ensure you have all of the functionality working would be an absolute no brainer. When putting all of the components together for a *PHONE* you would think that you would test, re-test, check, double-check and then triple check the actual *PHONE* components. My mind is pretty much blown over this one... -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:37:15 -0600 Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I too am on the must have 850 list. Unfortunately not all companies provide their individual coverage maps on that site, but the large PDFs http://www.coveragemaps.com/gsmposter_americas.htm and http://www.coveragemaps.com/gsmposter_world.htm look to be a composite of all the GSM providers, some of which add to the 850 range. I'm aiming for T-Mobile, and luckily they have 850 roaming agreements with companies that are in the areas in which I travel. j On Nov 5, 2007 9:36 PM, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 5, 2007 6:23 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we try to figure out how to proceed. How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you must have full quad-band? Please put your answers on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update Michael I've already put myself down on the list for the 850 tri-mode. That'll work good nuff for me. But I also did some digging around on GSM World to hopefully answer my questions and others. If you take a quick look at http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or both). In the case of ATT you can take a quick look at the two coverage maps: 850: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=b2 and 1900: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=be From what I can see in the maps for ATT is that 850mhz isn't as well rolled out, but where it is, has better coverage. 1900mhz is better deployed, but seems to be spotty when it comes to the fringes. But the short version is that without 850 access on the moko, I personally would be unable to use half the towers around here. I'm going to go as far as saying that 850 is critical for U.S. GSM. I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. -Jon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Hank On 11/6/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, thanks to Michael for giving the update. It is never good to have to be the bearer of bad news. However, this is huge! My probability of purchasing just dropped from 95% to about ~5%. I'm getting ready to move and not knowing what my coverage will be like in those areas is definitely a deal killer. I occasionally do some international travel and also spend time in more rural areas so quad-band coverage is an absolute must have (not just something I want for the warm fuzzies). I'm not going to be overly critical, but how does this just slip through the cracks? Although somewhat marginal, quad-band chipsets do cost more than tri-band. It just seems really really weird that ensure you have all of the functionality working would be an absolute no brainer. When putting all of the components together for a *PHONE* you would think that you would test, re-test, check, double-check and then triple check the actual *PHONE* components. My mind is pretty much blown over this one... -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:37:15 -0600 Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. That aside, I too use TMobile and would like to be able to use the mobile here; my coverage on the maps looks good in my urban area, but any roadtrips etc would indeed put the phone out of use. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 03:36, Jon wrote: I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. Afaik the first GSM phones all used 900Mhz. Some time later the 1800 and 1900 frequencies where added. The 850 frequency was introduced far later, I guess that's because the 900 band is used for something else in the US, at least, I hope that's the reason. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. In all fairness to OpenMoko, I think 850 Mhz is only used by the USA and Canada, which only account for ~10% of mobile phones in the world. That's according to statistics at http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P7222 United States: 201.6m + Canada: 16.6m = 218.2m World: 2.14bn So the OpenMoko can still be used in 90% of the GSM world. Although, having said that, I feel people's pain. :-( Plus I guess you have to factor in that the number of potential OpenMoko users/developers/hackers in the USA is probably _way_ higher than 10%. :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... It really is hard to imagine them thinking that they were designing a phone for just outside the US. If that was their thinking, it certainly should have been clarified. Certainly a plurality of the first units sold, and perhaps a majority, have been sold in the US. Honestly, its hard to imagine an Open Source phone gaining much traction without US support. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. In all fairness to OpenMoko, I think 850 Mhz is only used by the USA and Canada, which only account for ~10% of mobile phones in the world. That's according to statistics at http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P7222 United States: 201.6m + Canada: 16.6m = 218.2m World: 2.14bn Yes, but that does not take into account types of phones. The world is full of super cheap phones that sell for a few dollars, particularly in developing nations. But This is a smart phone. And I strongly suspect the smart phone sales percentages are much larger than 10% in the US. So the OpenMoko can still be used in 90% of the GSM world. Although, having said that, I feel people's pain. :-( Plus I guess you have to factor in that the number of potential OpenMoko users/developers/hackers in the USA is probably _way_ higher than 10%. :-) Indeed. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:06, hank williams wrote: Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. Frankly, i'm not that suprised, 850 really is a US thing. You are missing out on lot of phones because of the different frequency and the amount of control the operators have over phones. Really, the US is just starting to catch up with the rest of the world. Tri-band phones are fairly common over here (although recently most new phone have been quad-band), and frankly, they can be used throughout the world, except the US. Thats good enough for biggest part of all GSM users. Your the minority on the one. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 04:13, Michael Shiloh wrote: I would guess that if we make such a variant, we would offer both, but I don't know for sure. Please realize that I'm just asking the question in anticipation that the information might be useful at some point. I'm not suggesting that we have any plans yet to do so. Depending on the issues involved a phone with a jumper and/or firmware/software switch between 850 an 900 could be a solution as well. I doubt there are much places where you can switch from 850 to 900 without having to cross an ocean first. I'd be inconvenient, but better that a phone with just 850 or 900 (and it might be preferable when producing it, because the phones will be identical again). AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:34, hank williams wrote: On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... It really is hard to imagine them thinking that they were designing a phone for just outside the US. If that was their thinking, it certainly should have been clarified. Certainly a plurality of the first units sold, and perhaps a majority, have been sold in the US. Honestly, its hard to imagine an Open Source phone gaining much traction without US support. Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. I feel your pain though, it would really suck to miss out on the neo because off dull things like frequency issues, and I really hope this will be resolved in some way. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:22:22 Jeffrey Thomas wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... Why were the phones shipped from the US, then ? Perhaps it would have made more sense to ship them from the EU where they seem to work fine and help many people save some dollars. Luckily, I got a friend of mine to bring the phone across the Atlantic and it seems to work with both major mobile providers in our country (Slovenia). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:37:39 -0800, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I see now that the openmoko.com page has been updated to state that it is a tri-band phone, not a quad-band phone - last night it clearly stated quad band. I just wish this had been clearly identified 3 or 4 months ago. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Howdy, I'm in Vancouver too, just tested my phone (motorola L2) against the 850/1900 network and it works (registers with fido) while 900/1800 doesn't. You can only select them in those pairs but I'm not sure how that will work on the neo. Can anyone clarify some more? Regards Dave On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 18:19 -0800, Justin Wong wrote: Quick (sorta stupid) question. I'm in Vancouver, Canada. What does not having 850 support mean? Thanks, Justin On Nov 5, 2007 6:08 PM, Tupshin Harper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. It is a major market. And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... loads. Is that a new unit of measure in europe? It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. Ok, so I guess this whole thing in your mind is really good biz dev strategy because they dont need the US. Lol. They need more strategists like you at FIC. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:06, hank williams wrote: Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. Frankly, i'm not that suprised, 850 really is a US thing. You are missing out on lot of phones because of the different frequency and the amount of control the operators have over phones. I am rather surprised actually at your rebuttal saying its a US thing. Yes, our country is backwards with telecom laws, backwards with telecom monopolies, and backwards because they never innovate. We've -always- been 3 years behind Japan, about 1.5-2 behind europe, when the japanese networks are CDMA/3g-UMTS. Sadly the japanese have locked their handsets down to all get out, the frequencies dont match up, and we are deprived of wonderful handsets. I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. While this is sadly a fact of the American mobile market it is not the cause for the Neo to be missing 850. When a phone comes out saying that its chipset is quad band, never 100% verifies this ability, and then apparently some oversight caused this to not be fully enabled, thats a major issue. I am extremely sad that this has happened, as now I will probably have to wait for the third total design revision to buy now. While Denver (where I reside) has great 850 and 1900 coverage, if I am unable to travel with my phone to certain areas where its 850 only, I will be at a loss. (My personal plea to FIC: go CDMA 1xEVDO-rev0/revA if at all possible for an american handset variation; And I am almost certain somewhere a chipset exists that could support both America and Japanese frequencies, as there are dual-mode phones available from AU. I hear Sprint is starting to activate non-sprint handsets as part of a settlement in California; they've taken said settlement for Cali and made it policy nationwide. This would allow the phone to be activated even without being 'sanctioned' by the network with their money-making phone customizations and such. ) This would be wonderful for data coverage too, and you would get the benefit of having an unlimited highspeed dataplan to kill with all the linuxy goodness that will be the Neo/whatever follows the Neo. I already plan to buy a small, battery powered portable EVDO dongle to WIFi adapter whenever an 850-able phone is released. I'd hide that in my backpack and have highspeed data on my neo on the go. :) Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Michael said above that it was a question of a physical hardware change: The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Board layout is a hardware issue. On 11/6/07, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
=== === On Tuesday 06 November 2007 11:46:11 am Mike Hodson wrote: I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. Really? Literally? :p ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Actually, http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html and http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-03-hardware.html still state quad... On 11/6/07, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:37:39 -0800, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I see now that the openmoko.com page has been updated to state that it is a tri-band phone, not a quad-band phone - last night it clearly stated quad band. I just wish this had been clearly identified 3 or 4 months ago. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? From what people are saying its firmware, hardware, and FCC recertification. Basically at this stage in the game, its either a rather costly change, or an oversight that can only be corrected in the next major design revision of the Neo. GTA03 I would presume, although read this thread and the wiki for details. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: === === On Tuesday 06 November 2007 11:46:11 am Mike Hodson wrote: I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. Really? Literally? :p I *have* shed tears looking at the amazing gorgeous super-huge-lcd flips that are as thin as a matchbook and almost as light. I cried when SonyEricsson decided to pull out of american CDMA; their Japan CDMA walkman slider was at the time (2 years ago) the perfect phone for me. It still beats, in sheer functionality, any of the new phones I've seen come from american carriers. I wish I could remember the AU model # but I bet there are even better examples now. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Nov 6, 2007 6:39 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. that's not true. I don't know the exact numbers, but i DO remember that the US are only at the nineth or tenth place of the smartphone-buyers-list. It is a major market. hm.. no. In the us the mobile communication sector ISN'T a major market at all. Ok, my information is not thaat up to date (2005-2006), but if we compare: italy and germany togheter have more active mobile phones then the whole usa. (actrually in italy we have 2.5 phones per person :D ) And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. ok, that's true. But that doesn't mean that less is done outside the usa. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. As above, in 2005/2006 only 12% of the announced phones could be used in the usa. I don't know if ou have ever been in a phone shop in europe or asia.. compare it to the usa and you'll cry to. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... loads. Is that a new unit of measure in europe? If you have no exact data, you have to approximate. The countries with the highest phone/person ratios are japan, finnland, italy, spain and germany. I wouldn't say this are third world countries, so you can assume we are not speaking of old nokia 3310, but probably some really hig-tech phones. It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. Ok, so I guess this whole thing in your mind is really good biz dev strategy because they dont need the US. No one sais they don't need usa. Just if they have to drop usa or rest of the world.. i would choose usa. Lol. They need more strategists like you at FIC. I think they would need more testers, as we saw.. Hank Stefan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com My work: http://unicoinuffico.wordpress.com Before printing this email, assess if it is really needed. Thank you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
The facts don't matter a bunch in this discussion for me. I think that we should vote for what we want and be grateful that ANYBODY is willing to put this kind of backing for an open source project. I haven't been around in the F/OSS community for long (maybe 8 years or so), but I really think that our attitudes should always be of thankfulness and never of entitlement. I really feel like there has been a big shift in what people expect now that there are large companies throwing money at the community. Look at what happened when nVidia started providing binary drivers. People got all entitled and demand that they release source code. Where do you have the rite to tell them what to do with their IP. We only have the right to ask, vote with money, and reverse engineer things in countries where that is still legal. Linux is about the people creating and giving, not corporations creating and giving. Most projects didn't start with giant corporate benefactors. I think it's unfortunate that this project was/is advertised as a quad band phone when it just has a quad band chip. I still don't think we have the right to tell them what they should/have to do. We are the consumers, but we are also being given something that no other company has ever been kind enough to give. These people are willing to make hardware without the locking that US companies pay other phone manufactures to do. Look at the iPhone, it's the exact opposite. It is closed source and it is locked. I don't know how much ATT pays Apple to sell only to ATT customers, but I'm sure that FIC is losing a pretty penny by not making deals with carriers to lock up their hardware. Lets try to look at all of this more as the rich benefactor FIC reaching out to the freedom fighters. Vote and we'll see if we can get this phone fully functional in the US market. I'd love to see it. I love my Zaurus and can't wait to have one that is internet connected 24/7. I'm thankful for my Zaurus. I'm thankful that it runs Linux. I'm thankful that another company is putting money into putting out a cell phone with Linux. I hope that we in the US can be a big enough market to make it succeed where the Zaurus flopped. As much as I believe that Linux is ready for everything (Server, Set Top Box, Desktop, PDA, Cell Phone), I don't think people, the consumers, are ready to buy everything with Linux. People never think Hmm, TiVo, it runs Linux, right? I'll get one!. Linux is still not a feature to most people in the US. Why do you think we still have so many unfriendly laws? The public still doesn't care. To be a force in the US you have to have features, not freedom. Sad, I know. Randall (ClashTheBunny) On 11/6/07, ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 6, 2007 6:39 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. that's not true. I don't know the exact numbers, but i DO remember that the US are only at the nineth or tenth place of the smartphone-buyers-list. It is a major market. hm.. no. In the us the mobile communication sector ISN'T a major market at all. Ok, my information is not thaat up to date (2005-2006), but if we compare: italy and germany togheter have more active mobile phones then the whole usa. (actrually in italy we have 2.5 phones per person :D ) And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. ok, that's true. But that doesn't mean that less is done outside the usa. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. As above, in 2005/2006 only 12% of the announced phones could be used in the usa. I don't know if ou have ever been in a phone shop in europe or asia.. compare it to the usa and you'll cry to. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. It is a major market. And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. A bunch of unresearched Americanist BS snipped Seriously, dude, I don't know how you could have gotten that idea that people in the US comprise a semi decent amount of the smart phone market. We don't. We're not even close to the top 5. I stopped being amazed a long time ago at how few people in the US are aware phones can be used for anything other than making calls and downloading ringtones. Don't even get me started on the topic of unlocked phones. Check your facts and assumptions Hank. As of 2006, symbian S60 phones made up about 70% of the smart phone market. Nokia, the maker of most symbian phones practically withdrew from the US market for a few years, which meant that if you wanted a Nokia smart phone in the US, you had to get it unlocked and unbranded... which again, most US consumers aren't aware that phones can be obtained from anywhere other than their cellphone companies. Nokia only just started making a bid back into the US market these past few months. So, there went almost 70% of smart phones that the majority of the US market were not even aware existed. Herehttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200610/ai_n19417023's a link giving the 70% figure in 2006. I vaguely recall an article I read this year saying symbian phones were down to maybe 56-62% of smart phones, but either way, it's still a very significant amount. You say smart phone in the US and people automagically think windows mobile, treos, crackberries. US consumers may buy a large number of these phones (maybe even up to the 20-30% you mentioned), but that's only about 30-40% of all smart phones available. This articlehttp://www.cellular-news.com/story/20959.phpcompares smart phone adoption among recent buyers as of the time of writing in different countries - US adoption was pretty abysmal back in 2006. While I'm sure it's increased since then, 20-30% is still a very far stretch. I think 8% would be more accurate. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
This article compares smart phone adoption among recent buyers as of the time of writing in different countries - US adoption was pretty abysmal back in 2006. While I'm sure it's increased since then, 20-30% is still a very far stretch. I think 8% would be more accurate. The problem is that a lot of the smartphone analysts differ in what a smart phone is. I have seen analyst statistics that say 20m smart phones were sold world wide in 06 and I have seen stats from other analysts saying 60m smart phones in the same time period. The 20m numbers include RIM, Windows Mobile, Palm, and only the high end Symbians. The reason for this is Nokia sells lots of Symbian phones that really have nothing to do with being smart, or substantively programmable, which is for me the real benchmark for smart phones. When you look at real smart phone sales - i.e. the 20m number, a very significant number of those are sold in the US. This is just based on the fact that most palms and blackberrys are sold in the US. The Neo is cutting edge and so really only comparable with the other high end phones. Bottom line is that Nokia uses statistics to try to claim a larger share of the smartphone market. But their symbian deployments are mainly in non-smartphones, and any numbers based on symbian as a real smartphone platform are deceptive. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
polz wrote: [...] Why were the phones shipped from the US, then ? Perhaps it would have made more sense to ship them from the EU where they seem to work fine and help many people save some dollars. thats simple: we had no shipping directly to customers at all before and we could get that service from a fic branch on quite short notice. at the factory there is no logistics which is suited to single pieces at all. so all the phones went to the us and got distributed from there. kind regards -- Joachim Steiger developer relations/support ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
n 11/6/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line is that Nokia uses statistics to try to claim a larger share of the smartphone market. But their symbian deployments are mainly in non-smartphones, and any numbers based on symbian as a real smartphone platform are deceptive. Hank Anyone that calls themselves a smart phone analyst should know that Symbian S40 = nokia feature phone and Symbian S60 = nokia smart phone. However, knowing the sorry sorry state of journalism today, I won't disagree that said experts sometimes know squat about what they're analyzing. I'd say 60 mil smart phones sold in '06 sounds more likely considering how the N95 sold about 1.5 mil worldwide in only Q2 of 07 and other N series devices came in at about 7.5 mil for that 3 month period. Not to mention E series devices that sold 2 mil. Either way though, you can't argue that nokia is the largest mobile phone manufacturer and they're also the largest smart phone manufacturer. Herehttp://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P8253is a more conservative estimate at 56% market share for S60 phones in 2006 as well as other statistics regarding the mobile industry. That website throws out 70.9 mil total smart phones sold in 2006 which sounds pretty reasonable. Again, the majority of S60 phones are sold in countries other than the US. Nokia moved their focus elsewhere because the majority of consumers here were not interested in smart phones until very recently. Granted the smart phone market in the US seems to have exploded this year with more WM and blackberry devices now that palm is practically dead but S60 phones are still scarce. Even if nokia only makes 50% of smart phones, that is ~45% of market share that US consumers have been completely excluded from. Let's say we buy up to 20-30% of the remaining smart phone market... that's still around 15% total market share. Let's face it, the US market isn't very important for a smart phone manufacturer. FIC could ignore the US market completely and still sell boatloads of the Neo. To be quite honest, I would prefer if the OM team held off on the US market for 6 months or so till they can implement quad band 3G and quad band GSM for a true world phone. They'll certainly be one of the first to support tmobile's AWS, which would really raise the chances of a US carrier adopting the phone. Here's to hoping. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I recently joined this list after looking at the OpenMoko project for a few weeks now. I am a software engineer and a linux enthusiast, I planned on actively developing for the project creating 3rd party applications. I am now somewhat concerned with this thread. Am I to understand that support for US is limited? How limited? From what I have been researching, networks such as the ones ATT and T-Mobile deploy are supported by the Neo. Am I mistaken? I am going to purchase the developers edition this week - if this is supported on the T-Mobile network. I currently have a T-Mobile MDA, which is to my knowladge supported by OpenMoko. Unless, again, my research has failed me. Basically my main question is if the Neo is supported on the T-Mobile network? Thanks, Raymond ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
When you look at real smart phone sales - i.e. the 20m number, a very significant number of those are sold in the US. This is just I think Nkoli's point was that if you are going to say something like A very significant number, it might be better to back it up with a reference to some statistics on the net somewhere. I happen to think your probably right, but personally I tend to dismiss comments which don't cite a reference. winmail.dat___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Thanks for letting us know so quickly. This definitely gives me something to think about purchase wise. Please keep us informed as to any future plans for alternate tri-band or quad-band hardware. -Steve Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Michael Shiloh writes: The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. How does the board layout affect the supported bands? Is it a jumper or something? Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated: it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Will do. Michael Steve wrote: Thanks for letting us know so quickly. This definitely gives me something to think about purchase wise. Please keep us informed as to any future plans for alternate tri-band or quad-band hardware. -Steve Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Nov 5, 2007 5:58 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated: it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept): How do we find out what support we have in our area? I know there have been alot of people complaining that they only have 850 in their respective area, and a phone without 850 coverage is of no use to them. I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but it makes me worry. I don't know what band coverage I have. Personally I have an ATT RAZR, which the option to select the network between Automatic, 850/1900 and 900/1800. Just now I set it to 900/1800 to test, and I no longer have service. Obviously, I don't want to spent several hundred dollars on a phone that doesn't work where I live, or _might_ work on the other band in the area. Additionally, how does this bode for traveling? If 850mhz is widely used for ATT - then I would be in trouble. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the OpenMoko and really really really want to get one of the GTA02's (I'm sure many others will agree). But I'm worried, and I'm sure I'm not alone. -Jon. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I'm not sure that I am willing to spend $450 for a non-world phone. Regards, joshua Tupshin Harper wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Michael Shiloh writes: How does the board layout affect the supported bands? Is it a jumper or something? Would that it were a jumper. Unfortunately it's much more complicated: it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification. Drat -- when firmware gets into it, it becomes problematic... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Quick (sorta stupid) question. I'm in Vancouver, Canada. What does not having 850 support mean? Thanks, Justin On Nov 5, 2007 6:08 PM, Tupshin Harper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we try to figure out how to proceed. How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you must have full quad-band? Please put your answers on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update Michael Tupshin Harper wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
That's to bad. Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will. I do a fair amount of camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas. I wonder how often the lack of the 850 band would cause problems? I looked around some and couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used. Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the GTA02. digger On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Nov 5, 2007 6:23 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we try to figure out how to proceed. How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you must have full quad-band? Please put your answers on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update Michael I've already put myself down on the list for the 850 tri-mode. That'll work good nuff for me. But I also did some digging around on GSM World to hopefully answer my questions and others. If you take a quick look at http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or both). In the case of ATT you can take a quick look at the two coverage maps: 850: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=b2 and 1900: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=be From what I can see in the maps for ATT is that 850mhz isn't as well rolled out, but where it is, has better coverage. 1900mhz is better deployed, but seems to be spotty when it comes to the fringes. But the short version is that without 850 access on the moko, I personally would be unable to use half the towers around here. I'm going to go as far as saying that 850 is critical for U.S. GSM. I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. -Jon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I agree. We realize that this is a very grave issue and are treating it with the utmost concern. Michael digger vermont wrote: That's to bad. Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will. I do a fair amount of camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas. I wonder how often the lack of the 850 band would cause problems? I looked around some and couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used. Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the GTA02. digger On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Is there a way to do both? Can you have the 900/1800/1900MHz phones along with the 850/1800/1900MHz variant? I don't know if that would raise cost or anything. That way at order time you could select which one you would like. Who uses the 900 band does anyone know? I would think the 850/1800/1900MHz variant would work for anyone in USA as it covers T-Mobile, and both bands of ATT right? On Nov 5, 2007 5:48 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Generally, my rule of thumb is that rural places have more 850MHz, urban places have the 1900MHz. The only place I would usually see 850MHz was on road trips, but now that I live on the North Shore, there is only about 50% coverage for 1900MHz (and it's always like 1 bar). Randall (ClashTheBunny) On 11/5/07, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. We realize that this is a very grave issue and are treating it with the utmost concern. Michael digger vermont wrote: That's to bad. Like many people I've been looking forward to getting a Neo and using OM. Now I'm not sure if I will. I do a fair amount of camping and canoeing, at times in rural areas. I wonder how often the lack of the 850 band would cause problems? I looked around some and couldn't find any good info on where 850 is used. Seems like this could affect a lot of people's decision to get the GTA02. digger On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 09:35 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
The big deal about 850Mhz vs 1900Mhz is that 850Mhz specification is higher power. Higher power means different, and probably more stringent, testing and certification requirements. Presumably that is why it's more than just a software/firmware issue requiring board design and component changes. Sigh. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I would guess that if we make such a variant, we would offer both, but I don't know for sure. Please realize that I'm just asking the question in anticipation that the information might be useful at some point. I'm not suggesting that we have any plans yet to do so. Michael Mathew Davis wrote: Is there a way to do both? Can you have the 900/1800/1900MHz phones along with the 850/1800/1900MHz variant? I don't know if that would raise cost or anything. That way at order time you could select which one you would like. Who uses the 900 band does anyone know? I would think the 850/1800/1900MHz variant would work for anyone in USA as it covers T-Mobile, and both bands of ATT right? On Nov 5, 2007 5:48 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Mathew Davis: Who uses the 900 band does anyone know? Nobody in North America uses 900 or 1800. Originally all GSM phones were 900Mhz. The GSM specs were created in Europe. Due to congestion on the 900Mhz band most providers added support for 1800Mhz. North America was late in the GSM game due to old networks and therefore much prior investment. However, it is basically unheard of now to buy a GSM phone in North America that does not support 850/1900, the two North American bands. These two are must have for North American customers in general. Quad band should be the goal. Good GSM coverage info here http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Agreed, I'm in California as well, and though I bought a pre-paid T Mobile card, it doesn't work either because of the 3G issue. It would seem the 850 issue plus the 3G issue has just 'bricked' my Neo (in a metaphorical sense) without me writing a single line of code. And given that the GTA02 will have the same 850 issue, plus that we haven't heard any new news on the 3G firmware upgrade for quite a while, my dream of developing for the Neo is starting to fade away. (Michael informed us back on Oct 13th that they were just working out the 'distribution terms' for giving us a firmware patch -- what's the status?) I don't want to start another thread like the other guy did a few months back bout convince me to keep my Neo but now I've got two major strikes against me using this phone. What's next? -id Tupshin Harper wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Nov 5, 2007 7:36 PM, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or both). In the case of ATT you can take a quick look at the two coverage I guess I'm in luck - TMobile only has 1900 anyway according to that. It just means no roaming in some cases when I otherwise could have, I guess. Well hey it's a developer phone, but when it goes to mass market it's hard to imagine shipping without 850, if that's going to leave all the rural areas uncovered. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I hear you. Now that the 850MHz update is posted, I'll turn my attention to the 3G issue (GSM firmware update) and the GPS driver. I've only just starting to look into these (since I arrived in Taiwan) and I'll report in a new thread once I get a bit more information. Michael ian douglas wrote: Agreed, I'm in California as well, and though I bought a pre-paid T Mobile card, it doesn't work either because of the 3G issue. It would seem the 850 issue plus the 3G issue has just 'bricked' my Neo (in a metaphorical sense) without me writing a single line of code. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/5/07, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept): How do we find out what support we have in our area? I have previously worked for a reseller of Cingular/ATT(used to work at radioshack for 4 years. joy!) and the stores login to their mapping system hasnt changed, I am able to provide as detailed of a map regarding 850 vs 1900 coverage as anyone could want. General rule of thumb: if your market had BOTH cingular AND att, you probably have at least one segment of the local network as 850. This can cause degraded performance if it works at all. If it only had 1 or the other, its a tossup and I can look it up. Mind you, 850 vs 1900 even in the same cities do not cover the same. Also im willing to field questions regarding cell networks in general if anyone needs clarifications. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Mike Hodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/5/07, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think then the question is (for us slightly less technically adept): How do we find out what support we have in our area? I have previously worked for a reseller of Cingular/ATT(used to work Also, if you are wanting to use it with TMobile, the 1900 should work, as soon as the firmware 3g sim issue can be fixed. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
