Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
I'm happy to be associated with a project that wants to be able to tinker with even the tinest little part of every bit of the code. This goes hand in hand with open standards. No one will stop you from loading whatever plugins become available. But I for one don't want to pay the Adobe tax to cause those plugins to be written. Hank does effectively point out how user demand for compatibility will be a significant hurdle to widespread phase 2 adoption. Eagerly awaiting phase 1, -erik This effectively leads the distro developement to the free/premium split that most linux distros encounter. Free distro for the tinkers and for pay one for the ones that find lack of defacto standards (flash+gps vector maps+windows media...) support crippling the device. I believe the second group is major part of phase3 target. The major question is will the price of the second option be still competitive to what other companies will have released by sept. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 22/03/07, Dossy Shiobara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007.03.22, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am obviously not against open source, but this religious stuff is like the Taliban. Hank, I think you just invoked Godwin's Law 2.0. -- Dossy Hehe, that's my favourite. Zero to Godwin's Law in a few hours. Brilliant. It's the only reason I walk in the smoke chasing the flames... -Pete p.s. Sorry for the pm Dossy. It's early and I've not connected my caffeine drip yet... -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. Christian On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 14:14 -0700, Brad Pitcher wrote: Or swfdec would be nice. The latest version supports YouTube videos. :) Regardless which free flash player is used, it will need to be made to work with minimo. Minimo still doesn't have an interface for installing extensions as of now, but it seems that extensions can be made for minimo and installed manually, as described here: http://www.litfuel.net/plush/?postid=135 On 3/21/07, Ole Tange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/19/07, Frank de Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if you want Flash use Gnash. At FOSDEM I had a chat with Rob Savoye. He is one of the lead Gnash developers. He was very interested in porting Gnash to the Neo1973. If you want to help him join the Gnash project. /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
How does the GPL prevent mp3 and flash video support? -Steven On 3/22/07, Christian F.K. Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. Christian ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Steven ** wrote: How does the GPL prevent mp3 and flash video support? -Steven On 3/22/07, Christian F.K. Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. It doesn't. I think Christian mixes up the (anti) software-patent provisions in the GPL (v2 and after) with a total prohibition of implementation of patented material. Even disregarding this there are still many sane regions in the world where mathematical algorithms are not patentable. So Gnash and swfdec are both fine candidates for inclusion in a free software driven device as far as I can see. Cheers//Frank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Christian F.K. Schaller schrieb: Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. Hmm... I do not see any problem here. You could use GStreamer for that which can have commercially licensed codecs and which in itself is LGPL and can be linked to the application without any licensing problem. And even if you would implement the codecs in the player then you still have no problem e.g. with MP3 and many others. The problem is not the sourcecode but the license for usage. There are free codecs for MP3 and other around, in terms of sourcecode. But you may, due to darn sotware patents, not be allowed to actually use them - especially not in a commercial product. You would just have to buy a license which will only allow you to use the technology. This has nothing to do with the concrete implementation, which is actually up to you. For GStreamer, Fluendo sells license packs for the most common audio and video codecs - thanks to Fluendo! Christian Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
I have flash on my nokia 770, that works fine and its an ARM9 if I'm correct? So why not use the implementation that nokia has? It works just fine for me.. Greetings, Edwin Lock ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Hi Nils, Been discussing this with various organizations over the last few years as part of working with distributions and embedded makers and the response of most lawyers involved is that they don't think the combination of non-free GStreamer plugin + LGPL GStreamer framework + GPL application is ok. Do tend to feel that it violates the GPL license of the application. This is part of the reason for why Novell made Banshee MIT licensed, why we have worked with Totem to make its license GPL+exception and why Pitivi is LGPL. MIT plugin + LGPL framework + GPL application is not ok either to make that clear. As the GPL requires you to ensure that everyone downstream have the same rights to use the code as yourself with no extra limitation beyond the GPL. You can not do that with something like MP3 as people downstream will often need to get a patent license from Frauenhoffer etc. to be able to legally use the decoder/encoder. So for both of the examples above the demands GPL of the application applies to both the framework and its plugins when distributed together. So to make it doubly clear its not the patent holders rights which are claimed violated, but the that of the copyright holders of the GPL code. I am not a lawyer and as always in these things people need to get their own legal advice on these issues from a lawyer before making any decisions. So this opinion on the interpretation of the GPL and how it interacts with enforced patents is based on the legal advice we have gotten, its the legal conclusion most companies and their legal teams make and its the interpretation the FSF has told us they think is the correct one. Christian On Thu, 2007-03-22 at 14:33 +0100, Nils Faerber wrote: Christian F.K. Schaller schrieb: Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. Hmm... I do not see any problem here. You could use GStreamer for that which can have commercially licensed codecs and which in itself is LGPL and can be linked to the application without any licensing problem. And even if you would implement the codecs in the player then you still have no problem e.g. with MP3 and many others. The problem is not the sourcecode but the license for usage. There are free codecs for MP3 and other around, in terms of sourcecode. But you may, due to darn sotware patents, not be allowed to actually use them - especially not in a commercial product. You would just have to buy a license which will only allow you to use the technology. This has nothing to do with the concrete implementation, which is actually up to you. For GStreamer, Fluendo sells license packs for the most common audio and video codecs - thanks to Fluendo! Christian Cheers nils faerber ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Sure, if you are making this device and only targeting areas where the patents do not apply then its fine. But FIC for instance I assume will try to ship their products in US/Canada/Australia and large parts of Europe where patents on these things are in effect. See my reply to Nils for a more elaborate explanation of why I think this is the case. Christian On Thu, 2007-03-22 at 14:34 +0100, Frank de Lange wrote: Steven ** wrote: How does the GPL prevent mp3 and flash video support? -Steven On 3/22/07, Christian F.K. Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gnash would probably be of no interest to any shipping a commercial product as the GPL license of it will conflict with enabling mp3 and flash video support. swfdec is LGPL though so as long as the mp3 and flash video support comes from external libraries it will be fine. It doesn't. I think Christian mixes up the (anti) software-patent provisions in the GPL (v2 and after) with a total prohibition of implementation of patented material. Even disregarding this there are still many sane regions in the world where mathematical algorithms are not patentable. So Gnash and swfdec are both fine candidates for inclusion in a free software driven device as far as I can see. Cheers//Frank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Dnia czwartek, 22 marca 2007, Edwin Lock napisał: I have flash on my nokia 770, that works fine and its an ARM9 if I'm correct? So why not use the implementation that nokia has? It works just fine for me.. Nokia paid to have Flash on Nokia 770/n800. You can't use it on other devices without breaking license. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Don't mud-wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and the pig loves it ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
The reason we can't do that is because that's proprietary flash built into opera-mini. We don't want either of those in OpenMoko. -Brad On 3/22/07, Edwin Lock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have flash on my nokia 770, that works fine and its an ARM9 if I'm correct? So why not use the implementation that nokia has? It works just fine for me.. Greetings, Edwin Lock ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
The flash situation is interesting. I spend a large part of my time doing flash development, and the pervasiveness and importance of the flash platform creates a really serious problem with the religious perspective about everything openmoko being open source. Flash is a critical element of the internet ecosystem and it is closed source. Gnash is *not* a solution. I can tell you this as someone who spends hours a day in the flash environment. Flash is moving far too fast to use only a platform that is **years** behind for the benefit of being purely open source. The flash development community, of which I am a part, is aggressively taking advantage of new features and the adoption of the latest version (flash 9) is faster than any previous version. As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I just think that it would be incredibly valuable to the platform to get flash 9 as soon as possible and not to worry about the open religion in this arena. If the internet can survive with some closed source apps, openmoko can too. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 3/22/07, Edwin Lock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you say we don't want... you really mean YOU don't want... Correct. Thank you for the clarification. I'm all for using open source software (obviously since I am on the maillist and going to get the Neo). But I'm not going to automatically preclude software just because it isn't open. Opera is a great browser. You are not being forced to use it. But if others want to, don't intentionally disallow it. As previously stated the licensing costs are too high anyway so I'm pretty sure it's not an option. Using only open software is a GOAL, not a REQUIREMENT. Please learn the difference between the two. My apologies for the misunderstanding. -Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Hi, First of all I do not intend to flame you. So no hard feelings towards you. However there are some important points regarding flash that lots of people tend to ignore. The flash situation is interesting. I spend a large part of my time doing flash development, and the pervasiveness and importance of the flash platform creates a really serious problem with the religious perspective about everything openmoko being open source. So you admit being one of those evil people that make websites inaccessable. Not only for people who think flash is evil because it is closed, but also for those who think the flash licence is unacceptable (like me. No I do NOT want to grant Adobe access to my computer because I install their flash plugin.) or for the blind. Flash is a critical element of the internet ecosystem and it is closed source. Gnash is *not* a solution. I can tell you this as someone who spends hours a day in the flash environment. Flash is moving far too fast to use only a platform that is **years** behind for the benefit of being purely open source. Well gnash is improving, it is really slow though and eats lots of resources. But apart from the missing features due to lack of documentation, flash itself is unsuitable for embedded systems due to being a huge resource hog. The proprietary flash plugins on the Nokia 770 and n800 are so slow just because they don't have so much processing power to spend on it. Flash btw kills battery life on those devices, just as it does on my laptop and will on an OpenMoko phone. A quick glance at the system requirements (for Linux as they seem to be a bit lower for Windows). 800Mhz cpu (which means x86 based with floating point), 512Mb of ram and 128Mb of graphics memory. Lets look at the Neo. 200Mhz ARM WITHOUT floating point, 128Mb ram and no real graphics memory... The flash development community, of which I am a part, is aggressively taking advantage of new features and the adoption of the latest version (flash 9) is faster than any previous version. Unless you work for Adobe you are part of the flash user community... As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Which is partly true. However downloading flash over GPRS is not very interesting. And it would only be disruptive because unfortunately so many people are expecting people to install flash. What would be really disruptive is an standardized and open framework that allows the same things as flash which everybody could with relative ease make use of. Something that might be supported by default in a browser. Adobe has a stranglehold monopoly on this flash thing at the moment. Which makes them no better than Microsoft messing up the HTML standard with IE and Frontpage. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. It is true that flash has some nice features, however using something that is open and standardized has a lot more possibilities. Lots of things that can be done with flash could also be done with SVG etc... Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I just think that it would be incredibly valuable to the platform to get flash 9 as soon as possible and not to worry about the open religion in this arena. As I pointed out there are also valid technical reasons like performance and battery life. Also licensing, access to the source code for optimisations and patents are an issue. If the internet can survive with some closed source apps, openmoko can too. I would rather say the internet survives despite closed source and non-standard apps and tools. Regards, Philippe --- Scarlet ADSL Unlimited - Only 24,95 euro per month. Max download Speed up to 6 Mbps, download volume of 30 GB. Order now... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Moin, Am Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:31:03 -0400 schrieb hank williams: As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I think nobody would seriously object having an optional, downloadable, binary flash add-on. I think currently not compiled for ARM is a much bigger problem than it seems. Currently Adobe's Flash is not even available for x86_64. When I was wondering why nobody at Adobe seems to have 64bit compiler I was told that part of the problem is that they use a JIT compiler for Actionscript which happens to put out x86 opcodes. Good luck trying to get them port that to ARM. -- Henryk Plötz Grüße aus Berlin ~ Help Microsoft fight software piracy: Give Linux to a friend today! ~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 3/22/07, Philippe De Swert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First of all I do not intend to flame you. So no hard feelings towards you. However there are some important points regarding flash that lots of people tend to ignore. So you admit being one of those evil people that make websites inaccessable. Ah yes, you don't mean to flame, but flash and I are evil. Well in any case you have just invalidated everything else that you say which follows. Not only for people who think flash is evil because it is closed, but also for those who think the flash licence is unacceptable (like me. No I do NOT want to grant Adobe access to my computer because I install their flash plugin.) or for the blind. Flash is a critical element of the internet ecosystem and it is closed source. Gnash is *not* a solution. I can tell you this as someone who spends hours a day in the flash environment. Flash is moving far too fast to use only a platform that is **years** behind for the benefit of being purely open source. Well gnash is improving, it is really slow though and eats lots of resources. But apart from the missing features due to lack of documentation, flash itself is unsuitable for embedded systems due to being a huge resource hog. The proprietary flash plugins on the Nokia 770 and n800 are so slow just because they don't have so much processing power to spend on it. Flash btw kills battery life on those devices, just as it does on my laptop and will on an OpenMoko phone. A quick glance at the system requirements (for Linux as they seem to be a bit lower for Windows). 800Mhz cpu (which means x86 based with floating point), 512Mb of ram and 128Mb of graphics memory. Lets look at the Neo. 200Mhz ARM WITHOUT floating point, 128Mb ram and no real graphics memory... Adobe produces a mobile version that is not yet flash 9 compatible. The resource requirements are different. As I said before flash 9 is not ready for mobile (ARM) devices. The flash development community, of which I am a part, is aggressively taking advantage of new features and the adoption of the latest version (flash 9) is faster than any previous version. Unless you work for Adobe you are part of the flash user community... How stupid. I am a developer. Meaning I write code in actionscript and flex. I am a part of the developer community because I have actively contributed to flash *developer* communities for the last 4 years. I do not consider myself a flash user any more than I consider myself a C++ user. I am a flash developer and a C++ developer, and I am part of the community of flash developers who talk every day about the tools (both open and closed source) and help each other solving technical and development issues. Perhaps this concept is foreign to you. As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Which is partly true. However downloading flash over GPRS is not very interesting. And it would only be disruptive because unfortunately so many people are expecting people to install flash. What would be really disruptive is an standardized and open framework that allows the same things as flash which everybody could with relative ease make use of. Something that might be supported by default in a browser. Adobe has a stranglehold monopoly on this flash thing at the moment. Which makes them no better than Microsoft messing up the HTML standard with IE and Frontpage. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. It is true that flash has some nice features, however using something that is open and standardized has a lot more possibilities. Lots of things that can be done with flash could also be done with SVG etc... Many more things *cant* be done with SVG that can be done with flash. actionscript, video, audio, and incredible tools are all things that SVG cant compete with from a capability or productivity perspective. Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I just think that it would be incredibly valuable to the platform to get flash 9 as soon as possible and not to worry about the open religion in this arena. As I pointed out there are also valid technical reasons like performance and battery life. Also licensing, access to the source code for optimisations and patents are an issue. Its clear you know nothing about flash, which in its current mobile version is implemented on 200 million devices currently world wide. But the religion about open licenses is in my view counterproductive since there is no open platform that comes anywhere near flash. Gnash is the closest and it is in the stone age. So optimizing something so old and out of date is hardly a good trade off. And I have no idea what patents have to do with this. You just seemed to throw it in to be open source religion compliant. If the internet can survive with
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 3/22/07, Henryk Plötz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moin, Am Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:31:03 -0400 schrieb hank williams: As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I think nobody would seriously object having an optional, downloadable, binary flash add-on. I think currently not compiled for ARM is a much bigger problem than it seems. Currently Adobe's Flash is not even available for x86_64. When I was wondering why nobody at Adobe seems to have 64bit compiler I was told that part of the problem is that they use a JIT compiler for Actionscript which happens to put out x86 opcodes. Good luck trying to get them port that to ARM. Actually, the new actionscript JIT complier/interpreter in flash 9 (the only one with a JIT - the older ones dont have it) is now open source and is available on the mozilla website. It is already designed to output ARM code as it was recognized that mobile was a critical part of their future. That said, I am sure there is lots of work yet to do to optimize and recompile the latest flash core for ARM. I am just saying the JIT compiler isnt where the problem is. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
So this is exactly what Adobe wanted. They have a group of dedicated users like Hank who demand flash support. And they also hold all the marbles when it comes to bringing flash to a particular platform. Manufacturers such as Nokia are/feel forced to provide flash on their internet tablet, and Adobe says sure, that'll be $___. Take it or leave it. Closed standards create monopolies. Open source projects playing catch-up can get around it to some extent; I'm happy with what I can see using swfplayer. But the [large] portion of the community that demands support for the latest features at every iteration does force companies to Adobe on bended knee. I'm happy to be associated with a project that wants to be able to tinker with even the tinest little part of every bit of the code. This goes hand in hand with open standards. No one will stop you from loading whatever plugins become available. But I for one don't want to pay the Adobe tax to cause those plugins to be written. Hank does effectively point out how user demand for compatibility will be a significant hurdle to widespread phase 2 adoption. Eagerly awaiting phase 1, -erik ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 2007.03.22, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am obviously not against open source, but this religious stuff is like the Taliban. Hank, I think you just invoked Godwin's Law 2.0. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Hi, First of all apologies for my webmail client who broke the threading. I am at home now where I do not need it, so hopefully this will be respected now. On Thu, 2007-03-22 at 13:28 -0400, hank williams wrote: So you admit being one of those evil people that make websites inaccessable. Ah yes, you don't mean to flame, but flash and I are evil. Well in any case you have just invalidated everything else that you say which follows. Seems irony is lost on you. If I meant to say you were evil I would not have put it between quotes. That phrase was also the reason why I pointed out I did not want to flame. However this seems to have allowed you to ignore my point about accessability for blind and vision impaired people amongst others and write an angry mail. And getting back to my point the fact that Adobe's EULA and licensing is soo horrible bad does not help. (And yes there are a few, next to useless accessability features in the recent flash versions before you attack me on that.) A quick glance at the system requirements (for Linux as they seem to be a bit lower for Windows). 800Mhz cpu (which means x86 based with floating point), 512Mb of ram and 128Mb of graphics memory. Lets look at the Neo. 200Mhz ARM WITHOUT floating point, 128Mb ram and no real graphics memory... Adobe produces a mobile version that is not yet flash 9 compatible. The resource requirements are different. As I said before flash 9 is not ready for mobile (ARM) devices. Yes, for WINDOWS mobile. And as I pointed out the performance requirements are much lower for windows anyway. On top of that it still eats away battery life and devices have trouble keeping up with it. As flash will loop constantly (by default) it keeps the cpu busy (among other things) which in turn makes that the device cannot sleep == shorter battery lifetime. And due to its closed nature nothing much can be done about it. It also does not change the fact that the OpenMoko is not a broadband device (yet), so downloading big flash files is not really helpful. Unless you work for Adobe you are part of the flash user community... How stupid. I am a developer. Meaning I write code in actionscript and flex. I am a part of the developer community because I have actively contributed to flash *developer* communities for the last 4 years. I do not consider myself a flash user any more than I consider myself a C++ user. I am a flash developer and a C++ developer, and I am part of the community of flash developers who talk every day about the tools (both open and closed source) and help each other solving technical and development issues. Perhaps this concept is foreign to you. I am a developer and mostly use C... This does not mean I develop C, so I am not part of the C developer community. Same applies to you. You develop WITH flash (actionscript and whatever). It is completely different from developing flash. Developing with != development of. It is true that flash has some nice features, however using something that is open and standardized has a lot more possibilities. Lots of things that can be done with flash could also be done with SVG etc... Many more things *cant* be done with SVG that can be done with flash. actionscript, video, audio, and incredible tools are all things that SVG cant compete with from a capability or productivity perspective. Well that is true, and I also admitted that earlier. However SVG is a W3C standard (which sadly is not completely implemented yet) while flash is not. And there are lots of better alternatives for audio and video. As I pointed out there are also valid technical reasons like performance and battery life. Also licensing, access to the source code for optimisations and patents are an issue. Its clear you know nothing about flash, which in its current mobile version is implemented on 200 million devices currently world wide. Because lots of devices have shipped with Java that makes it mobile? I guess you never experienced the slowness caused by Java on restricted devices. And as you stated earlier it is a handicapped version of flash. Which in todays world is next to useless seen the huge amounts of flash 8 and 9 content. So we will need to features and this does not change anything about flash being a resource hog especially on mobile devices. The proof for flash slowness on Linux platforms is there. Just look at the Nokia 770 and n800 which are a lot more powerful than the OpenMoko. But the religion about open licenses is in my view counterproductive since there is no open platform that comes anywhere near flash. Gnash is the closest and it is in the stone age. So optimizing something so old and out of date is hardly a good trade off. Gnash starts to support
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On Thursday 22 March 2007 17:33, hank williams wrote: On 3/22/07, Henryk Plötz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moin, Am Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:31:03 -0400 schrieb hank williams: As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I think nobody would seriously object having an optional, downloadable, binary flash add-on. I think currently not compiled for ARM is a much bigger problem than it seems. Currently Adobe's Flash is not even available for x86_64. When I was wondering why nobody at Adobe seems to have 64bit compiler I was told that part of the problem is that they use a JIT compiler for Actionscript which happens to put out x86 opcodes. Good luck trying to get them port that to ARM. Actually, the new actionscript JIT complier/interpreter in flash 9 (the only one with a JIT - the older ones dont have it) is now open source and is available on the mozilla website. It is already designed to output ARM code as it was recognized that mobile was a critical part of their future. That said, I am sure there is lots of work yet to do to optimize and recompile the latest flash core for ARM. I am just saying the JIT compiler isnt where the problem is. Adobe's linux flash developers say the JIT is one of several non-portable parts that's preventing release of a 64bit version under any OS. It's good that they've done the work to rewrite the non-portable bits for arm, but on x86_64 flash still isn't a viable option. http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2006/10/whats_so_difficult_64bit_editi.html Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
On 3/19/07, Frank de Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if you want Flash use Gnash. At FOSDEM I had a chat with Rob Savoye. He is one of the lead Gnash developers. He was very interested in porting Gnash to the Neo1973. If you want to help him join the Gnash project. /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Or swfdec would be nice. The latest version supports YouTube videos. :) Regardless which free flash player is used, it will need to be made to work with minimo. Minimo still doesn't have an interface for installing extensions as of now, but it seems that extensions can be made for minimo and installed manually, as described here: http://www.litfuel.net/plush/?postid=135 On 3/21/07, Ole Tange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/19/07, Frank de Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if you want Flash use Gnash. At FOSDEM I had a chat with Rob Savoye. He is one of the lead Gnash developers. He was very interested in porting Gnash to the Neo1973. If you want to help him join the Gnash project. /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
As far as I know there is not even an adobe flashplayer for amd64 on linux .. why should there be one for ARM ? In addition the adobe flashplayer is not free .. maybe we use swfdec or gnash .. of course they do not have the same funtionality but they will do the job :) martin ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Martin Raißle wrote: As far as I know there is not even an adobe flashplayer for amd64 on linux .. why should there be one for ARM ? In addition the adobe flashplayer is not free .. maybe we use swfdec or gnash .. of course they do not have the same funtionality but they will do the job :) And even if we were to consider using proprietary software on the device the license for Flash player does not allow you to use it on an embedded device: http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/players/flash/ ... ... 3. Restrictions. 3.1 Web Player Prohibited Devices. You may not Use any Web Player on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, you may not use a Web Player on any (a) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs that are not running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, game consoles, TVs, DVD players, media centers (excluding Windows XP Media Center Edition and its successors), electronic billboards or other digital signage, internet appliances or other internet-connected devices, PDAs, medical devices, ATMs, telematic devices, gaming machines, home automation systems, kiosks, remote control devices, or any other consumer electronics device, (b) operator-based mobile, cable, satellite, or television systems or (c) other closed system devices. ... ... So if you want Flash use Gnash. Cheers//Frank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
