Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Wow, this one trolls rant has been taken way too far. Half the emails in my box have the subject of FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members - we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong as they are right. My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to me. Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. This next statement is going to reflect poorly on the Debian community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them so that the bad is my burden not theirs... The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) You argue that every person treated rudely is a potential contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that notion of self-reliance, that do it yourself or it won't get done right mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being persistant. Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that right NOW, OpenMoko is a typical Free Software project. Fine. cool. When OpenMoko goes mass market it will NOT be a typical project. All of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY have achieved critical mass they didn't set out to be Free... GNU, which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS in time. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what the community does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the minimalist or leave things out and offend the people who want thing A. A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same do it yourself mentlality, allows the use to do what matters to them, and ignore the community. Democracy is a beautiful principal if you can ignore the fact that the majority is
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Dnia Wednesday 19 of March 2008, Tim Shannon napisał: Wow, this one trolls rant has been taken way too far. Half the emails in my box have the subject of FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? And most of mails from this list are from people with broken keyboards (no Del key). -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant This tagline is umop apisdn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
[snipping to keep it short] [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry. the community's easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself. debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ] I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. I agree. The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones aren't the ones I worry about. It's everyone else. Two groups come to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors. 2. The coders who are looking for a project to work on. A honey-vs-vinegar approach would help in both areas. The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) Responding to such a request like this: RTFM: url of documentation The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had good printed documentation, but no google. It's fair to assume that people would look for documentation before asking... They already searched plenty to find the mailing list! Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're really competing with other projects for contributors. It helps not to treat them as spoiled, lazy children. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs traditional functionality before. E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision. As they don't bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we *have* to recruit heavily to build a community. The ones who'd come in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else has made the system useful. The few exceptions are folks who need specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing, raw, openmoko stack. IMHO, not too many by itself. It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account. The initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only have ideals to start with). What they put in builds interest --- the results of their work interests more people. Those people's contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance in the account --- building interest themselves. The cycle continues forward. Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud. But, everyone's got their buy-in point. The amount of work required to make the device useful/interesting for them. More work than that, and they're not interested. Any coder will tell you that they spend as much time going through documentation and other people's source as they do writing your own. That's where the community comes in: if it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point. Open source projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars. Never pretend that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snipping to keep it short] [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry. the community's easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself. debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ] I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. I agree. The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones aren't the ones I worry about. It's everyone else. Two groups come to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors. 2. The coders who are looking for a project to work on. A honey-vs-vinegar approach would help in both areas. The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) Responding to such a request like this: RTFM: url of documentation The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had good printed documentation, but no google. It's fair to assume that people would look for documentation before asking... They already searched plenty to find the mailing list! Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're really competing with other projects for contributors. It helps not to treat them as spoiled, lazy children. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs traditional functionality before. E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision. As they don't bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we *have* to recruit heavily to build a community. The ones who'd come in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else has made the system useful. The few exceptions are folks who need specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing, raw, openmoko stack. IMHO, not too many by itself. It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account. The initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only have ideals to start with). What they put in builds interest --- the results of their work interests more people. Those people's contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance in the account --- building interest themselves. The cycle continues forward. Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud. But, everyone's got their buy-in point. The amount of work required to make the device useful/interesting for them. More work than that, and they're not interested. Any coder will tell you that they spend as much time going through documentation and other people's source as they do writing your own. That's where the community comes in: if it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point. Open source projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars. Never pretend that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And lossless formats are a joke. They use such prodigious amounts of storage space that there's really no point at all. Just use the original media! And if you don't own the original media, you're either a thief or you've been ripped off yourself. (Can you say, iTunes?) You obviously do not understand much about audio. Please, try to speak about things you really understand What would that be ? I really have no idea... __ Marc-Olivier Barre, MarcO'Chapeau. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Kevin Dean wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here. :) We, the openmoko community demand you communicate with us. We complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters. I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear communication issues. One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner debut. As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally raises the point of the community responding here with a read the topic response but OMi should really be directing how they want that handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a question we're all tired of answering, or have those interested people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend their money on this project? I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that what is said in the name of OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of the project. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying I've sent out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share means something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means is that updates are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every telling of the news. I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is either up-to-date or clearly marked out of date. The goal here will be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as knowing of the some transistor is vital or just helpful for the future. Good points, Kevin. I will respond more fully subsequently. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. They are a little firm, but with a very innovative ideas in the mind. This don't mean that all the people must to support their idea. You must analyze your needs and to decide if you need or not their product. They don't have a budget and the experience of the big firm I told you before, so they must to move slow. They must to make a lot of test and to develop the application they need they must to ask help of external person. Everyone help how he can. If Openmoko will be a firm like Apple, they will start the project in secret and they will release only when it will be ready, with all the application ready. But openmoko need the external developer support, so for this reason, will pass some time before it can be ready for mass production and use. Personal I like this way of developing, but not all the people will like. It is normal. I know that if I will buy this phone, I will always need a normal phone to make an emergency call :) But I like the same. In a future, when it will be ready, there will be a consumer version, but remember: phone from Apple, Nokia, Motorola will be nicer and will play more formats, and cheaper, because Openmoko is Openmoko, not a multinational. I like this phone and I will accept this limitation. I my choise. Then you must to make your choise: there is nothing bad if you choise another phone that cost less and give more functionality. So, make your choose and respect the other person choose. Michele Renda ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, and you have no interest whatsoever in selling to consumers. Because with these attitudes, even if you do eventually come out with a consumer version, they won't be interested. This has been my point all along: what is your goal? If you ever want to sell this thing to consumers, you're going to have to aim in their direction, not strictly at developers. If you think you can suddenly start wooing consumers after all the development is done, you have a rude awakening ahead... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, I completely agree with this strictly because of the battery life on the gta01. If they ever had any intention of this being mass produced, they would have got most of the hardware right the first time, and at least tested the basic functionality. Do you understand the simple difference between gta01 and gta02? Gta01 was *never* meant to be a consumer device. They're talking about gta02 here. I bought a gta01 because I thought it would be fun to write software for. However the one thing that has got me since day 1 is the battery life. Why do you need a good battery life to develop software? Are you used to write software outdoors? Just plug in your charger's cable. Unless you didn't read that big, red warning when you were buying your customer-ready gta01. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap. People who don't understand it apparently like crap. I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for every intelligent man. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions. 2008/3/18, Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap. People who don't understand it apparently like crap. I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for every intelligent man. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
This'll be my first email to the community, sorry for any mistakes. Just to put things straight, I am **not* *a developer, I don't have any experience with the Neo1973 or the Neo Freerunner. I haven't had the chance to purchase anything, nor have I had the chance to provide anything for the community. That said, I have been closely following the openmoko-devel mailing list. All the in-depth stuff. And a number of the personal fears that have popped up in these emails are quietly being killed. For instance, the battery life. Most people are worried it won't last very long, etc. The truth is that the battery life is looking at 200 hours on stand-by, and nearly 10 hours of continuous talk. Which is the longest talk-time for a phone built around this battery. The delay is actually rather needed, though it only covers a few small things, namely echo during calls and a small number of resistor changes. People have found small niggly issues that don't affect the product at all, but will give people a chance to complain if they aren't accounted for. The echo during calls was described as minimal in most situations, but distracting while trying to hold an involved conversation. Sorry I have no links, but I'm in a rush here, I'll provide evidence later if people want it. I don't want to sound condescending or mean when I say that the community mailing list doesn't hold much information on the product. The simple fact is that the community is, at the current moment, waiting with baited breath to get their hands on this Neo Freerunner. I praise the developers, and most other people would too if you saw the number of emails floating around in there. Just for informations purpose, there have been nearly 2000 emails in the dev channel since the start of February. Jordan. P.S. I'll post a follow-up and some interesting ideas later, currently, I have somewhere else to be. Sorry. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions. Yes, you point is very valid. There are some important differences like experience, existing product base and number of employees but generally they have very much in common. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, it plays many closed, proprietary formats out-of-the-box, but none of the open formats like ogg vorbis, ogg theora, flac, speex, dirac. So it does not play any of my music out-of-the-box, and I'd prefer to support vendors that support those formats. You're speaking with forked tongue here: no other device plays all those out of the box either, including full Linux desktops. I find it very hard to believe you read what people are writing, are not troll or whatever. Linux desktops do play the open formats I mentioned, that's the benefit from using open formats. Also some music devices support open audio formats like the mentioned Vorbis and FLAC. I mainly use Vorbis. store my media in 15 different formats just so I can say I'm using an open format. If I can't drag and drop the same file onto each and every one of my devices and have it play perfectly, I'm not going to bother. I use only 2 formats, and they are both open. Your problem is using products that do not support open formats. That's why I'm only buying hardware that supports open formats, so I don't get into the format hell where every proprietary codec owners (mp3, aac, wma...) wants their format to be the one everyone uses, and no-one, especially any open product, can support them all (or any of them) since all require license fees. Open formats would solve the problem. And lossless formats are a joke. They use such prodigious amounts of storage space that there's really no point at all. Just use the original media! Off-topic, but CDs are much more cumbersome to use, and yes I mostly use lossy format (Vorbis) instead of FLAC when I use music I've copied from my CDs. I also buy music in FLAC and transcode it to Vorbis for mobile devices. Ogg support is a few taps of the stylus away for IT OS2008. The point was, again, that the vendor does not _support_ it or other open formats, which is far more important than how easy it's to install programs/support manually. I already stated it as clearly as I could it. You're way exaggerating the situation. You also deliberately left out xvid, which OS2008 plays through mplayer, also only a few taps away. Xvid is MPEG-4 which equals to patent-encumbered format that requires license fees, so it's not open/free format so I didn't mention it because I'm not interested in it. Vaporware is not the way to attract customers. It seems to have very strongly attracted you according to the amount of stuff you keep on posting and repeating. -Timo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
This isn't another negative post about the delays, I promise. I have loosely followed this project since somewhere around the middle of last year. There were delays, they didn't tell/inform us. It was very frustrating because I was in a situation like yours...I really needed a new phone and I wanted to wait it out. My honest suggestion is to not wait, but go out and get a phone that will either make you happy now or just one that can live with. I'm currently *extremely* happy with my N95! Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. Besides, now that I am not in need of a phone I can be more supportive and fell less compelled to complain. Also, having a second phone is going to be a good thing in case you manage to somehow screw up the software. Last thing, I don't want to hear the I can't afford two new phones argument. You are looking at dropping $400 on a phone...so another ~$25-100 is NOT that much of a difference. -Original Message- From: Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Delayed another 6 months is a deal breaker for me. If I can get a Freerunner that is hardware stable, makes phonecalls and does most phone functions in a month or two, I'll be fine, otherwise I'm gonna have to start looking at other devices. My current phone is on it's last leg and it's time to upgrade. - Original Message From: Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:53:22 PM Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? JW wrote: On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. Polished software not available til much later I guess it comes down to your definition of slightly. To me slightly earlier than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1 or 2 months from now. That would put the gta02 dev release into august. However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling. I'm looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the next few months. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty device in 1 month. I agree 100% with Andy. I don't want to buy a device and discover a major issue a month after that. I don't want to have to wait for GTA02.1 or to have to buy a new GTA03 3 months after GTA02 comes out You are all doing a great job. Thanks so much. Fred ++ i'm too cheap to buy a product that doesn't work, when i can be patient and have one that does Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone. You would need it because you want to hack it. Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a clue what this is all about. It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet. But this is something the community needs to make it happen. The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone! Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers. And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. Since it is already rather stabele at the moment. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I have to chime in here, I was trying to resist. :) OpenMoko Inc. is a company that, right now, is treading unfamiliar waters. On one hand, they're a newcomer to the phone market so they don't have name recognition yet so they need to generate buzz in order to get the word out around their product. At the same time, they're made up of hackers who value the freedom and the openness of Free Software and have been applying that mentality to their business model. When a bug was found in hardware, it's relayed to us. The problem is that the rest of the world isn't ready for that. The general media isn't used to HEARING about a product before it's almost out the door. OpenMoko Inc has the RARE burden here of building hype for a product, keeping true to the hacker community who demands transparency and pleasing the consumers that will in the end buy it's product. I think the resentment in general is caused by conflicting paradigms - most people read and article and expect a product in 6 weeks. I won't exactly fault OpenMoko here but they should have counted on that. I understand fully what people are saying - I resisted buying a Neo1973 because I knew a better version was on the horizon. At the same time, it's the user's fault as well for making the assumption that a project that breaks all the rules would follow the rules. :) What ultimately got my $$$ was self-evaluation of why OpenMoko was important to me at all - Freedom. The media is hyping OpenMoko as the iPhone killer and a LOT of people are interested in it for that reason. Since OpenMoko Inc. hasn't exactly been... willing to correct that assumption (for obvious reasons) I think, like GNU/Linux, the entire point is being lost. OpenMoko is a phone powered by Free Software - if you want that, buy it, you won't find another phone that meets that criteria. OpenMoko today is not the iPhone killer. When you see it on a store shelf, of see a friend with one and personally believe it's the iPhone killer, THEN you should buy it as the iPhone killer. But since I got the point of OpenMoko - Freedom - I didn't feel like I was spending money on what OpenMoko is today. I spent money to ensure that Freerunner would come out because I have faith that what OpenMoko will be next year. At the same time, OpenMoko is also a software community. Sometimes people get defensive when something they've invested time and energy into is under attack but at the same time criticism IS as important in many ways as plaudits. Companies make mistakes, but what really retains customers is how they respond to those mistakes. Myself, as a paying customer of FIC/OpenMoko, I'm confidant that they're working on ways to make my experience better. By keeping true to the goals of openness and freedom, they're building hype. And while I am reluctant to phrase it this way, I'm not one to be nice for the sake of it - the message of freedom has sold SKUs and most of the feature complaints are coming from people who haven't put any money behind their rants. Whom do you THINK they're going to cater to given that? Viva Libre! -Kevin Dean On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathon Suggs wrote: Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone. You would need it because you want to hack it. Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a clue what this is all about. It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet. But this is something the community needs to make it happen. The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone! Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers. And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. Since it is already rather stabele at the moment. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Well Said! Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki? Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ? That's all I'm asking for. Somewhere I can go to, to see how the openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be fine. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
OM's unusual in the sense that they're asking us to do three things: 1. Invest $400-600 in them. 2. Use their device in such a personal way -- a cell phone is as much a part of my daily setup as my shoes or wrist watch. 3. Develop on it, in our usually too-rare spare time, unpaid. In exchange, they promise openness. And so far, where the product's concerned, I think they've held that part of the bargain. But, they've been really failing at expectations management. We are paying in 3 big ways here, so we are still customers. For the same reason why any other customer gets real tired of hearing It'll be done any time now, it's tiring to hear it from OM. No open-source project has ever worked well by treating its users as ungrateful leeches. Which is what I'm hearing from some of this community -- it's a great way to poison the well and *ruin* it for everyone. When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give is fix it yourself. That's how you lose users, who could have become contributors. It's how you *kill* open source projects. As they're unfunded, the only capital an open source project has its users. The criticism is valuable in and of itself. IMHO the best response for it is please file a bug report. They can do that, and they're getting involved in the community. And later, someone else who wants to contribute has a nice place to look for what to do. Two birds, one stone. As for Openmoko, please respect what we're putting into this venture. Without us, OM's just a raw piece of hardware with a marginal software stack, more expensive and less functional (in usable terms) than your off-the-shelf iPhone. The community is 90% of the value of your product, remember to spend some time working on it!! If you're not sure how, read up on some Guy Kawasaki. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Lally Singh wrote: When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give is fix it yourself. Clearly the words of someone who's never attempted to complain about the lack of a driver for their special hardware on the Linux kernel mailing list. Fix it yourself is actually a pretty common response in open source projects when the fix that's being demanded is a relatively low priority in the grand scheme of things. Fact is, there's never a shortage of things needing to be done, and the folks who are being paid to work on OpenMoko no doubt have a long, long list of things that they need to fix already. So your options amount to fix it yourself, do without or wait. That's the reality of open source projects, particularly those at an early stage, as OpenMoko is: if you're convinced that what you need is a high priority, then the expectation is that you'll put your money where your mouth is and start contributing. (Of course, if you'd prefer, you could go to a platform like the iPhone, so when you demand that you need to have, say, cut and paste capabilities, the response will effectively be, Tough or No, you don't.) I'd be interested in hearing about the open source projects you're familiar with, particularly those where the response is How high? when the demand is Jump! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh sheesh. Why are you trying so hard to poison this project? Read the rest of the response. I said the proper response is please file a bug report. Or shove it on a wishlist. Someone spent time trying to contribute to the project with their own ideas, and the last thing you want to do is throw it back in their face. At minimum, you'll throw away a user, at worst, you've lost a significant potential contributor. The wish list can be 10 gigabytes long, that's fine. As long as the user's been brought a little into the fold, and suddenly we have a bunch of nice little places for new developers to join in the project. A wish list (or bug report list) and a getting started with developing for project X is how you get people in. Open source projects are even more dependent on marketing in their day-to-day activities than regular commercial endeavors. Nobody's (usually) getting paid, nobody's *got* to do the work. All you have is making each other happy working together. Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in. I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Lally Singh wrote: Oh sheesh. Why are you trying so hard to poison this project? Oh, please. If you want to entertain me with rhetoric, put more effort into it. I'm not poisoning this project, I'm simply adding a note of actual reality here. If anything might have that effect, I'd imagine it'd be the persistent and unrealistic complaints about a project which has been more open and transparent than any hardware project I've ever seen. And, having worked at both Apple and Palm for a number of years, and having spent the past seven years in the cell phone industry, I've seen plenty of 'em. The fact is that the sort of response with which you're so unhappy is not unusual in open source projects at all. You're doing a lot of opining about what open source projects do without a lot of substantiation to back it up. All of this is not much different than the demands, many months ago, about Why can't you _just add WiFi_? to the GTA01, equally misinformed, equally unhelpful. Here's an idea: you want a wish list, and feel there's a pressing need for one, why don't you create it? It's, after all, the open source thing to do, right? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Michael Lally Singh wrote: Well Said! Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki? Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ? That's all I'm asking for. Somewhere I can go to, to see how the openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be fine. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members - we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong as they are right. My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to me. Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. This next statement is going to reflect poorly on the Debian community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them so that the bad is my burden not theirs... The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) You argue that every person treated rudely is a potential contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that notion of self-reliance, that do it yourself or it won't get done right mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being persistant. Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that right NOW, OpenMoko is a typical Free Software project. Fine. cool. When OpenMoko goes mass market it will NOT be a typical project. All of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY have achieved critical mass they didn't set out to be Free... GNU, which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS in time. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what the community does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the minimalist or leave things out and offend the people who want thing A. A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same do it yourself mentlality, allows the use to do what matters to them, and ignore the community. Democracy is a beautiful principal if you can ignore the fact that the majority is not always right. If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in. I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way. With all of my criticism, I beleive that community is critical to the development of ANYTHING, and Free Software projects specifically. I'm
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here. :) We, the openmoko community demand you communicate with us. We complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters. I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear communication issues. One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner debut. As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally raises the point of the community responding here with a read the topic response but OMi should really be directing how they want that handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a question we're all tired of answering, or have those interested people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend their money on this project? I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that what is said in the name of OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of the project. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying I've sent out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share means something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means is that updates are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every telling of the news. I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is either up-to-date or clearly marked out of date. The goal here will be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as knowing of the some transistor is vital or just helpful for the future. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: clare wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: The latest binary for Neo from Trolltech is at qtopia.net. Thanks very much. I did set up the one from qtopia.net, with a modern u-boot (5 March) u-boot-gta01bv4-1.3.1+git0+10bbb38a402a2faf18858c451bcdc63d45888e6e+svn4164-r3.bin and the two pieces supplied as qtopia-4.3.1-neo-flash.tgz which is not SD booted, it has apparently to be flashed. I was very disappointed. I don't know why it was very slow compared with what I remember earlier about qtopia. I may try again sometime in the Thats odd. It haven't seen any performance issues like that. Thanks, That is a start - I was wondering if it was just mine being difficult. I want to try again the dual booting, then will load qtopia again and do some time measurements and comparisons with other versions. I have already noticed dialout time very long with underground and am wondering if it is low signal level, I will have to try in another place. (Soon will be more mobile and then can do that.) regards, clare ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sunday 16 March 2008 19:57:50 Michael Shiloh wrote: Hi everyone, I'm trying to get some sort of a concrete update from the team in Taiwan. I'll let you know as soon as I do. Maybe while you're at it, some information about the future direction of the interface stack would be nice. I'm putting together bits and pieces and I think I fathom what is planned but some statement would be nice. Thanks, Gabriel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/15, Mark Haury [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ...and the Neo *is* fully open? What about the graphics module, the gps module, and the gsm module? They are as open as it is possible to get gsm/gps technology under international regulatory laws, which is pretty much the best you can hope for until eg. laws change, in case you do not want to drop gsm/gps support altogether. There's no competitors offering similar (best) level of openness in both areas. Graphics is having hurdles that are not unsolvable, so I'm believing they will be solved. Main 2D stuff is currently open, waiting for 3D in the future. I have yet to come across any media file that I can't play on my N800; it plays ogg, wav, mp3, wma, wmv, xvid, etc. It does not play eg. ogg, I was discussing out-of-the-box functionality, ie. what the vendor supports which is the only thing that matters in the big picture. I also mentioned that the vendor actively rejects open media formats, which is also true as seen in the HTML5 preparation discussions in addition to refusing to support those formats in devices. It even plays some Web media that my desktop kubuntu machine won't. Yes, it plays many closed, proprietary formats out-of-the-box, but none of the open formats like ogg vorbis, ogg theora, flac, speex, dirac. So it does not play any of my music out-of-the-box, and I'd prefer to support vendors that support those formats. It sounds to me like you're going on hearsay rather than personal experience. I've a N800, I know what parts of it are closed (many) and that it does not play open media formats out-of-the-box. It's a nice device with some open parts making it superior to a few others in openness, but it's quite far being really open and rejecting open media formats tells a story of its own about not being truly honest / courageous enough about supporting openness. It was a great start when 770 came out, but not much progress has happened since then. -Timo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:18:54 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- Keep up the great work Lorn (and Co.). Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Thank you for the small update! :) Sean Daniel ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Sunday 16 March 2008 19:57:50 Michael Shiloh wrote: Hi everyone, I'm trying to get some sort of a concrete update from the team in Taiwan. I'll let you know as soon as I do. Maybe while you're at it, some information about the future direction of the interface stack would be nice. I'm putting together bits and pieces and I think I fathom what is planned but some statement would be nice. Good question, Gabriel, but I've found that in order to get the best information it is important to bother people as little as possible, and only to ask simple, very specific questions. As soon as we get Freerunner into mass production everyone will breath a sigh of relieve and we'll be able to ask all the other questions. Right now I want to distract the team as little as possible from the single most important goal. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Mark wrote: Michael Shiloh michael at openmoko.org If you have little interest in putting up with the frustrations that will surely follow, you will do best to wait for the consumer software to be ready. ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, and you have no interest whatsoever in selling to consumers. Mark, did you even read Michael's last sentence? They *plan* for a consumer-ready product. They've said this all along. I met Michael at a Linux expo here in Los Angeles and worked in the booth with him for a few hours, and I overheard him tell dozens of interested people that the hardware would be available to developers so they could assist with getting the software consumer-ready, and that the consumer-ready software would likely take a number of months to finish up. I've been following this thread somewhat in silent awe, but it makes me wonder, Mark, why you keep up such a negative attitude about the Neo and Freerunner. If you're not happy waiting, look elsewhere. We're all fine (it seems, except you) waiting for regular status updates coming from Michael on behalf of the team in Taiwan. Michael is the liaison and gives up updates as he gets them. And asking the hardware techs to blog about status is a waste of time. Please sit down and be patient like the rest of us, and either contribute something *constructive* to the list (and to the software), or unsubscribe from the mailing list. Your week's worth of ranting isn't solving anything. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Mark pisze: [...] ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, and you have no interest whatsoever in selling to consumers. Because with these attitudes, even if you do eventually come out with a consumer version, they won't be interested. This has been my point all along: what is your goal? If you ever want to sell this thing to consumers, you're going to have to aim in their direction, not strictly at developers. If you think you can suddenly start wooing consumers after all the development is done, you have a rude awakening ahead... common... why cant U understand that aiming to consumer when hardware is NOT ready verified (not mentioning where is the software) is such stupid idea like paring your nails with chain saw... maybe you achieve success, but for sure, only once... imagine some car manufacturer or any company in any industry selling cars or anything without enough safety/reliability tests... this really have to be avoided... believe me, U dont want to live in a world when something like that is common... Ive been there, so U can believe me... this is the place for developers and supporting community, neo is at THIS STAGE and at THIS MOMENT also for developers and FOSS enthusiasts... it needs TIME and lot of LOVE to become consumer device... and most of us hopes and believes that it will be one day... for now Im sure that if somehow some end-user gets here, he will quickly find out that it is not place for her/him... YET... regards Piotr ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, I completely agree with this strictly because of the battery life on the gta01. If they ever had any intention of this being mass produced, they would have got most of the hardware right the first time, and at least tested the basic functionality. I bought a gta01 because I thought it would be fun to write software for. However the one thing that has got me since day 1 is the battery life. I cant believe any company selling a portable device would not test that. I cant believe that is a hardware issue. I log in to these mailing lists just to find that someone posted a patch for battery life. But that never happens. And I dont have time to support a project that I feel is a flop before it ever flipped. So for now, I just use it as an irregular shaped hockey puck. Its pretty good at that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Dnia Saturday 15 of March 2008, Mark Haury napisał: In order for there to be competition, there has to be something available. The Trolltech Greenphone comes to mind, though, as its availability matches the Freerunner's at this point. Not to mention that's the origin of Qtopia that everybody seems to be running on their Neos rather than OpenMoko. That's more than a little revealing... Greenphone is past now. Even Trolltech does not use it as developer platform - they switched to Neo1973 few months ago. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant What a strange game. The only winning move is not to play. -- WOPR, War Games ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Michael told next couple of months...a month ago, and no announcement has been released yet... 2008/3/16, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 16/03/2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, give us some words about delays if there are any... NO! You don't get these words from Openmoko You already know what you get 1) full access to kernel/dev discussions - you should make your own mind up on what these mean for timescale... 2) Following announcement (prev by M Shiloh) Hello, A number of times you have asked about pre-orders. Here is the official word from our VP of Marketing: Over the next couple of months you will see the following 3 announcements: 1. When the production hardware is solid and signed off, we will announce pricing and availability. That is, we will announce the expected price and the expected date on which the web store will open. 2. When the first production run is complete, we will announce that. 3. When the phones reach the distribution centers in Europe and USA, we will open the web store and begin taking orders. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
JW schrieb: On 16/03/2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, give us some words about delays if there are any... NO! You don't get these words from Openmoko You already know what you get 1) full access to kernel/dev discussions - you should make your own mind up on what these mean for timescale... 2) Following announcement (prev by M Shiloh) Well that would be all fine if one needs the Freerunner privately as a phone and for that I would gladly wait ;). However in my case the Freerunner should constitute the platform for a project of my PhD thesis, so a few months up and down _do_ matter. If the Freerunner is available to developers only in August, I'll have to look elsewhere for a appropriate platform, as much as it would pain me. The suggestion to make my mind up reading kernel discussions is not very helpful and might even be considered mockery. I'm sure someone in the core kernel team has a general idea about the stability and matureness of the hardware platform, and can at least tell if it is realistic that developers get their hands on a device until May 1st (given the inevitable time offset for mass production). Maybe however FIC decides to start mass production only when software maturity is in sight, which would make sense to them, but would severely hinder the building of a community since 1. the Neo1973 is sold out and 2. it lacks many nifty features that could inspire novel and interesting projects. I know that in hardware design show stoppers can lurk behind every corner, but I would appreciate if *someone* familiar with the current status of the hardware and/or FICs policy towards releasing developer devices could suggest a date when we could order it *IF* everything goes according to plan as of march 16th. regards Christoph ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Mark Haury [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marcin Juszkiewicz openembedded at haerwu.biz wrote on Sun Mar 16 11:02:12 CET 2008 On Saturday 15 of March 2008, Mark Haury wrote: In order for there to be competition, there has to be something available. The Trolltech Greenphone comes to mind, though, as its availability matches the Freerunner's at this point. Not to mention that's the origin of Qtopia that everybody seems to be running on their Neos rather than OpenMoko. That's more than a little revealing... Greenphone is past now. Even Trolltech does not use it as developer platform - they switched to Neo1973 few months ago. Exactly my point: the Greenphone hardware is *just* as available as Neo hardware at this point, since both have been sold out for some time and there's no telling when GTA02 might be available. And the fact that people are inclined to use Qtopia rather than Openmoko reveals something about the the status of Openmoko... The only difference between the Greenphone and the Neo at this point is that Trolltech have publicly announced that the Greenphone is not going to be produced anymore, whereas Openmoko keep promising (but not delivering) more hardware. It's the *promise* of the resumption of production of hardware that keeps them actively developing Qtopia for the Neo. It seems to me that continued production of the flawed GTA01 hardware would have been preferable to nothing at all. And unless there's some extremely serious problem with GTA02 that they're not telling us, they certainly could have released it to developers before now. It is *abundantly* clear to everyone that the software and probably the hardware is not ready for consumer release, but without allowing developers to evaluate and help, it never will be. The core FIC-employed group is much too small to do it all by themselves, regardless of how brilliant and competent they are. It's not their technical expertise that is being questioned, just their business sense. It all boils down to the premise upon which this project is supposedly based: is it open, or not? Mark P.S. If Nokia does in fact take over Trolltech as is rumored, this might all be moot in short order. I warned a long time ago about the window of opportunity... I think the main concern with FIC at the moment is that if they release the Freerunner developer-only hardware now, produced in 10x the quantity of the 1973 (what was hinted to earlier), and some major hardware problem was found, it could destroy the credibility and the resources of the project. I hate waiting like this, and I was hoping to get the Freerunner developer model for my birthday in a few weeks, but I'd much rather wait and have the guarantee that I won't be SOL if there is a problem with the function or the longevity of the device. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I think there are people here with different objectives. My objective is to get a cool platform where I can code and play around, but I fully intend on using it daily as a replacement for my current cellphone and pda, and do care about problems. Clearly there are people out there that do not mind little hardware bugs as they just want it for other purposes, but I'm glad FIC is taking its time, because while I don't mind crashes today, I'll get a bugfix tomorrow I sure care about the hardware working, because I'm not planning on spending money on the freerunner to get a cool new paperweight or device to keep at home. Anyway, please understand that there are multiple sides to the issue, and I don't think accusing openmoko of being worse than qtopia (I wanna have BOTH on mine!) and putting pressure to the I'm sure already under great pressure FIC people is going to help alot. Didn't they get the 1973 hardware working and out to the public? Give them a little credit, and let's keep the discussion constructive. Ivo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Mark Haury wrote: Matt Manjos matt at manjos.com wrote on Sun Mar 16 16:23:09 CET 2008: I think the main concern with FIC at the moment is that if they release the Freerunner developer-only hardware now, produced in 10x the quantity of the 1973 (what was hinted to earlier), and some major hardware problem was found, it could destroy the credibility and the resources of the project. I hate waiting like this, and I was hoping to get the Freerunner developer model for my birthday in a few weeks, but I'd much rather wait and have the guarantee that I won't be SOL if there is a problem with the function or the longevity of the device. Which is worse: the fear of possible failure, or certain failure? Clearly the words of someone who's never, ever, worked on a complex hardware project. No, just ship it is not good advice. The fear of failure is usually self-fulfilling prophecy. Lack of proper planning and oversight, not to mention due diligence, pretty much always is. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Do you have any notion of what it costs to produce multiple thousands of smartphones, just in monetary terms? That's a lot to venture. If they're constantly going to give in to the fear of failure, then that is certainly what's going to happen. Like I say, I don't get the impression that you've got the experience to have an informed opinion on this, in all honesty. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Well, i've followed this discussion and only one thing is left to say: LOL!!! Just get back from your dream and get the information in the list: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) 2) The Freerunner is in the last (we hope) development process, concerning the hardware, so i think that there's no interest from FIC to not release it 3) HOW will it be released? It will be released in a status that only the hardware will be in a good form, the software could be considered alpha or beta (you are lucky if you can make call or send sms but it's not guaranteed) 4) WHEN? when it will be ready it will be released So, what can you get from that? You can understand that if you are looking for a replacement for your daily use pda or phone, if you want to get it in a short time, if you think that is closed source, if you want a camera, a keyboard, UMTS, HDSPA, EDGE or something different from what is listed for the GTA02,, as a normal customer does, you can go to your favorite mobile shop and get another mobile. I think that no one is here to say something like my cell is better than the neo, if you are not satisfied with the Neo specs, there are 2 thing that you can actually do: 1) wait for another release 2) just get another pda I can't see the difficulty in that, it's so simply, just like anyother product. If you want the Freerunner for other reasons rather than the tecnology you have to wait. Personally i like the neo and i like the idea to hack a mobile os and make it look and act as i want, and first of all i like the openness of this project. If this project was something closed i'd be a stupid, with the same money i could get a device with all the new tecnology, but i don't like symbian and ms win mobile, so i'm waiting for the neo, keeping in mind that it wouldn't be ready and functional out of the box. So just wait for some news from the FIC guys. Bye! Pietro (sorry if my english is not correct) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On 16/03/2008, Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The suggestion to make my mind up reading kernel discussions is not very helpful and might even be considered mockery. the suggestion above that you alone are worthy of a declared delivery date (when it has been extensively described otherwise as the policy of the project team) might even be considered extreme arrogance. but i don't know how long you have been watching the mailing lists so will not accuse you of this. JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Mark Haury wrote: Marcin Juszkiewicz openembedded at haerwu.biz mailto:community%40lists.openmoko.org?Subject=FreeRunner%20delayed%20a%20further%206%20months%3F%21%3F%21%3F%3FIn-Reply-To=47DBEEE9.3090305%40gmail.com wrote on Sun Mar 16 11:02:12 CET 2008 Dnia Saturday 15 of March 2008, Mark Haury napisał: In order for there to be competition, there has to be something available. The Trolltech Greenphone comes to mind, though, as its availability matches the Freerunner's at this point. Not to mention that's the origin of Qtopia that everybody seems to be running on their Neos rather than OpenMoko. That's more than a little revealing... Greenphone is past now. Even Trolltech does not use it as developer platform - they switched to Neo1973 few months ago. Exactly my point - the Greenphone hardware is *just* as available as Neo hardware, since both have been sold out for some time. And the fact that people are inclined to use Qtopia rather than Openmoko reveals something about the the status of Openmoko... You say that as it is a bad thing... Rather, it revels something about the status about Qtopia. :) -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
clare wrote: On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: The community has... it has put Qtopia on the device and made it work very reasonably, I think. The 4.3 branch is in bug fix mode, so nothing substantial there. Most work is being done for 4.4 The latest binary for Neo from Trolltech is at qtopia.net. Thanks very much. I did set up the one from qtopia.net, with a modern u-boot (5 March) u-boot-gta01bv4-1.3.1+git0+10bbb38a402a2faf18858c451bcdc63d45888e6e+svn4164-r3.bin and the two pieces supplied as qtopia-4.3.1-neo-flash.tgz which is not SD booted, it has apparently to be flashed. I was very disappointed. I don't know why it was very slow compared with what I remember earlier about qtopia. I may try again sometime in the Thats odd. It haven't seen any performance issues like that. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Mark Haury [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt Manjos matt at manjos.com wrote on Sun Mar 16 16:23:09 CET 2008: I think the main concern with FIC at the moment is that if they release the Freerunner developer-only hardware now, produced in 10x the quantity of the 1973 (what was hinted to earlier), and some major hardware problem was found, it could destroy the credibility and the resources of the project. I hate waiting like this, and I was hoping to get the Freerunner developer model for my birthday in a few weeks, but I'd much rather wait and have the guarantee that I won't be SOL if there is a problem with the function or the longevity of the device. Which is worse: the fear of possible failure, or certain failure? The fear of failure is usually self-fulfilling prophecy. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If they're constantly going to give in to the fear of failure, then that is certainly what's going to happen. Mark ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Buying each one of the 5 GTA02 hardware revisions, if they were sold to the public, would have cost me $2250 so far, not including shipping, taxes and customs/duty charges. Each one of those revisions fixed multiple hardware bugs, some of them very serious. Certain failure as you put it would be to release a piece of hardware that might burn out because of an obscure, improperly placed resistor or capacitor and making the community foot the bill every time a $450 hardware revision is produced. Perhaps waiting for this device feels longer BECAUSE of the openness of FIC's prototyping/development process. Watching paint dry I believe is the expression, as we see small, incremental changes instead of a large splash. If FIC was closed and secretive as to the prototyping/testing process for their hard drive, and NO information was given as to a final release date, we wouldn't have anything to complain about. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Hi everyone, I'm trying to get some sort of a concrete update from the team in Taiwan. I'll let you know as soon as I do. Thanks, Michael Andrea Debortoli wrote: Michael told next couple of months...a month ago, and no announcement has been released yet... 2008/3/16, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 16/03/2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, give us some words about delays if there are any... NO! You don't get these words from Openmoko You already know what you get 1) full access to kernel/dev discussions - you should make your own mind up on what these mean for timescale... 2) Following announcement (prev by M Shiloh) Hello, A number of times you have asked about pre-orders. Here is the official word from our VP of Marketing: Over the next couple of months you will see the following 3 announcements: 1. When the production hardware is solid and signed off, we will announce pricing and availability. That is, we will announce the expected price and the expected date on which the web store will open. 2. When the first production run is complete, we will announce that. 3. When the phones reach the distribution centers in Europe and USA, we will open the web store and begin taking orders. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Christoph Witzany wrote: JW schrieb: On 16/03/2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, give us some words about delays if there are any... NO! You don't get these words from Openmoko You already know what you get 1) full access to kernel/dev discussions - you should make your own mind up on what these mean for timescale... 2) Following announcement (prev by M Shiloh) Well that would be all fine if one needs the Freerunner privately as a phone and for that I would gladly wait ;). However in my case the Freerunner should constitute the platform for a project of my PhD thesis, so a few months up and down _do_ matter. If the Freerunner is available to developers only in August, I'll have to look elsewhere for a appropriate platform, as much as it would pain me. The suggestion to make my mind up reading kernel discussions is not very helpful and might even be considered mockery. I'm sure someone in the core kernel team has a general idea about the stability and matureness of the hardware platform, and can at least tell if it is realistic that developers get their hands on a device until May 1st (given the inevitable time offset for mass production). Maybe however FIC decides to start mass production only when software maturity is in sight, This is not our intention at all. Mass production will start as soon as we have verified the hardware. The only software we require will be that required to verify the hardware, e.g. drivers, testing utilities, etc. which would make sense to them, but would severely hinder the building of a community since 1. the Neo1973 is sold out and 2. it lacks many nifty features that could inspire novel and interesting projects. I know that in hardware design show stoppers can lurk behind every corner, but I would appreciate if *someone* familiar with the current status of the hardware and/or FICs policy towards releasing developer devices could suggest a date when we could order it *IF* everything goes according to plan as of march 16th. regards Christoph ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Also I think so: Produce a phone, with all this function is not easy, and hardware can not to be fixed with a patch or a version update. I appreciate what FIC people are doing. Ivo Anjo wrote: I think there are people here with different objectives. My objective is to get a cool platform where I can code and play around, but I fully intend on using it daily as a replacement for my current cellphone and pda, and do care about problems. Clearly there are people out there that do not mind little hardware bugs as they just want it for other purposes, but I'm glad FIC is taking its time, because while I don't mind crashes today, I'll get a bugfix tomorrow I sure care about the hardware working, because I'm not planning on spending money on the freerunner to get a cool new paperweight or device to keep at home. Anyway, please understand that there are multiple sides to the issue, and I don't think accusing openmoko of being worse than qtopia (I wanna have BOTH on mine!) and putting pressure to the I'm sure already under great pressure FIC people is going to help alot. Didn't they get the 1973 hardware working and out to the public? Give them a little credit, and let's keep the discussion constructive. Ivo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On 16/03/2008, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'm trying to get some sort of a concrete update from the team in Taiwan. I'll let you know as soon as I do. Don't rush on the hardware, your doing a bang up job already (translation for non-british: thumbs up), I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty device in 1 month. My current neo (running qtopia) is satisfactory for now. How many of you impatient I-wanna-freerunner-now types would want a freerunner _this_second_ if you had no guarantee that it would work perfectly and had no chance to return it ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Hello Pietro I think you said what a lot of Neo supporter think! Someone must to understand is not just a phone. I something different from what there was untill now. If a person want just a phone or a pda is better that buy a phone or a pda. :) Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: Well, i've followed this discussion and only one thing is left to say: LOL!!! Just get back from your dream and get the information in the list: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) 2) The Freerunner is in the last (we hope) development process, concerning the hardware, so i think that there's no interest from FIC to not release it 3) HOW will it be released? It will be released in a status that only the hardware will be in a good form, the software could be considered alpha or beta (you are lucky if you can make call or send sms but it's not guaranteed) 4) WHEN? when it will be ready it will be released So, what can you get from that? You can understand that if you are looking for a replacement for your daily use pda or phone, if you want to get it in a short time, if you think that is closed source, if you want a camera, a keyboard, UMTS, HDSPA, EDGE or something different from what is listed for the GTA02,, as a normal customer does, you can go to your favorite mobile shop and get another mobile. I think that no one is here to say something like my cell is better than the neo, if you are not satisfied with the Neo specs, there are 2 thing that you can actually do: 1) wait for another release 2) just get another pda I can't see the difficulty in that, it's so simply, just like anyother product. If you want the Freerunner for other reasons rather than the tecnology you have to wait. Personally i like the neo and i like the idea to hack a mobile os and make it look and act as i want, and first of all i like the openness of this project. If this project was something closed i'd be a stupid, with the same money i could get a device with all the new tecnology, but i don't like symbian and ms win mobile, so i'm waiting for the neo, keeping in mind that it wouldn't be ready and functional out of the box. So just wait for some news from the FIC guys. Bye! Pietro (sorry if my english is not correct) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty device in 1 month. I agree 100% with Andy. I don't want to buy a device and discover a major issue a month after that. I don't want to have to wait for GTA02.1 or to have to buy a new GTA03 3 months after GTA02 comes out You are all doing a great job. Thanks so much. Fred On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:42 AM, andy selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16/03/2008, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'm trying to get some sort of a concrete update from the team in Taiwan. I'll let you know as soon as I do. Don't rush on the hardware, your doing a bang up job already (translation for non-british: thumbs up), I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty device in 1 month. My current neo (running qtopia) is satisfactory for now. How many of you impatient I-wanna-freerunner-now types would want a freerunner _this_second_ if you had no guarantee that it would work perfectly and had no chance to return it ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano ha scritto: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
A progress blog would be nice. I don't think much more than what you normally find in the Wiki and kernel mailing list would be needed. Just a single place to find out what's going on. On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano ha scritto: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
IMO I'd rather the dev team spend their time developing than writing blogs and answering the communities every question. Their number 1 priority is getting the FreeRunner finalized and working. Not coming up with arbitrary dates that the device may or may not be ready by. It would be better that they spend a few extra months making sure the hardware is good and done than finding out in those months they needed to have an extra resistor at x location so that y feature would work. The community needs to calm down, relax and be patient. Remember if you could have created the first open source phone out of scratch with just a couple guys and a small company than you'd be the one doing it. Not the guys in Openmoko busting their asses to try and change the world or cellular technology. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:34 PM To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? A progress blog would be nice. I don't think much more than what you normally find in the Wiki and kernel mailing list would be needed. Just a single place to find out what's going on. On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano ha scritto: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I agree, that sort of thing would be a lot of work for little gain. There has to be something internal that allows for communication between members, however. For example, I am a big fan of the prototypes page on the wiki that outlines the devices produced so far, who has them, and what work has been done. Moving any sort of internal tracking/memo system to the wiki/another open site would be cool. Matt On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO I'd rather the dev team spend their time developing than writing blogs and answering the communities every question. Their number 1 priority is getting the FreeRunner finalized and working. Not coming up with arbitrary dates that the device may or may not be ready by. It would be better that they spend a few extra months making sure the hardware is good and done than finding out in those months they needed to have an extra resistor at x location so that y feature would work. The community needs to calm down, relax and be patient. Remember if you could have created the first open source phone out of scratch with just a couple guys and a small company than you'd be the one doing it. Not the guys in Openmoko busting their asses to try and change the world or cellular technology. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:34 PM To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? A progress blog would be nice. I don't think much more than what you normally find in the Wiki and kernel mailing list would be needed. Just a single place to find out what's going on. On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano ha scritto: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:49:57 +0100, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? All the info is there, you just have to subscribe to the other mailinglists, see: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ and also the feeds section: http://planet.openmoko.org/ I think if you have time to make a weekly overview of all that info, and blog it somewhere, you would be providing what you are asking for... I'd read it... Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Lorn Potter wrote: Mark Haury wrote: Marcin Juszkiewicz openembedded at haerwu.biz mailto:community%40lists.openmoko.org?Subject=FreeRunner%20delayed%20a%20further%206%20months%3F%21%3F%21%3F%3FIn-Reply-To=47DBEEE9.3090305%40gmail.com wrote on Sun Mar 16 11:02:12 CET 2008 Dnia Saturday 15 of March 2008, Mark Haury napisał: In order for there to be competition, there has to be something available. The Trolltech Greenphone comes to mind, though, as its availability matches the Freerunner's at this point. Not to mention that's the origin of Qtopia that everybody seems to be running on their Neos rather than OpenMoko. That's more than a little revealing... Greenphone is past now. Even Trolltech does not use it as developer platform - they switched to Neo1973 few months ago. Exactly my point - the Greenphone hardware is *just* as available as Neo hardware, since both have been sold out for some time. And the fact that people are inclined to use Qtopia rather than Openmoko reveals something about the the status of Openmoko... You say that as it is a bad thing... Rather, it revels something about the status about Qtopia. Openmoko is not (just) software. It's a product company aiming to make the best open mobile devices in the world. The fact that Qtopia works is a tribute to our openness. The fact that it works so well is a tribute to Trolltech. This is the power of Open. This is what Openmoko was created for. Nothing makes us more happy than to see great software running on our hardware. Keep up the great work Lorn (and Co.). Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the info is there, you just have to subscribe to the other mailinglists, see: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ and also the feeds section: http://planet.openmoko.org/ I think if you have time to make a weekly overview of all that info, and blog it somewhere, you would be providing what you are asking for... I'd read it... Yeah I've scanned planet.openmoko.org, but the signal/noise ratio for what I want isn't very good. I'd really just want a predicted ship date. If it changes, fine, but let me know. For how open the product is, the development phase is (unintentionally) pretty shrouded. I agree the data's there, but it's scattered all over the place in the wiki. As for doing the grunt work in providing that 5-10 lines a month of blog data... It's 10x harder on the outside to do it as from the inside, and frankly I've got a dissertation to worry about. I don't think many in the community want to play data miner to keep the rest of the community up-to-date. It also sounds like some of the community's losing their patience with this. I'm second-guessing a purchase myself. I went through a long-wait-for-false-hope phase with PalmOS 6, and am not in the mood for another one. If they don't want to dedicate someone to writing a paragraph a month, just CC a -progress blog when you've got something progress-relevant to say. A CC isn't too hard, is it? We don't all have hours to dig through mailing lists and the wiki to get some basic progress data. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: Actually, for the 02, they are still working out the _hardware_. Except if you try to put your own system on there, a lot of the hardware is not going to work. That's because the tablet devices hardware are not well documented, if at all. and more in the same vein. It seems to me that essentially that is what Mark was saying, THat the Neo in its various forms will be for developers and geeks, for a long time. THat if you want a phone, buy a cheap phone, if you want something else buy a tablet. I have done both those things and neither has the fascination of the Neo. I believe far too much effort has gone into trying to make the Neo into a a lookalike of a common phone; why bother - common phones are cheap and easily available, smaller too, and have cameras etc etc. The real payoff with the Neo will be when the community stops following slavishly what the FIC people are doing and does something new and exciting (such as happened this week: Mar 14 Johannes Schauer neo1973-germany starting to rumble... ) Is there anything new in Qtopia? where is the latest available please? thank you clare ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
JW wrote: On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. Polished software not available til much later I guess it comes down to your definition of slightly. To me slightly earlier than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1 or 2 months from now. That would put the gta02 dev release into august. However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling. I'm looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the next few months. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Delayed another 6 months is a deal breaker for me. If I can get a Freerunner that is hardware stable, makes phonecalls and does most phone functions in a month or two, I'll be fine, otherwise I'm gonna have to start looking at other devices. My current phone is on it's last leg and it's time to upgrade. - Original Message From: Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:53:22 PM Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? JW wrote: On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. Polished software not available til much later I guess it comes down to your definition of slightly. To me slightly earlier than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1 or 2 months from now. That would put the gta02 dev release into august. However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling. I'm looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the next few months. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On 3/15/08 Mark Haury wrote: Timo Jyrinki timo.jyrinki at gmail.com wrote on Fri Mar 14 22:01:43 CET 2008 First speaking about Neo being not open, it's funny to advertise a device with lots of proprietary software and problematic, very closed pieces of hardware, preventing any theoretical free software distribution to be actually usable on the device. And regarding out of the box functionality, it plays none of digital music I have since the vendor refuses to support free/open media formats, even actively fighting against them. I don't think there's currently a competitor on sight to Neo phones on openness, though of course things could always get improved. My pet peeve would be to work on i18n and open up mailing list to translators, but I guess it's again a bit later on :) -Timo ...and the Neo *is* fully open? What about the graphics module, the gps module, and the gsm module? You may get some I/O specs, but the modules themselves will never be open. They won't even release the CAD files for the case in their original form... The CAD files here: http://downloads.openmoko.org/CAD/ Are _exactly_ the files that we use (and will use) for Mass Production. Please let me know where you found this inaccuate information so we can correct it. Or is this just your opinion? Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
clare wrote: On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: Actually, for the 02, they are still working out the _hardware_. Except if you try to put your own system on there, a lot of the hardware is not going to work. That's because the tablet devices hardware are not well documented, if at all. and more in the same vein. It seems to me that essentially that is what Mark was saying, THat the Neo in its various forms will be for developers and geeks, for a long time. THat if you want a phone, buy a cheap phone, if you want something else buy a tablet. I have done both those things and neither has the fascination of the Neo. I believe far too much effort has gone into trying to make the Neo into a a lookalike of a common phone; why bother - common phones are cheap and easily available, smaller too, and have cameras etc etc. The real payoff with the Neo will be when the community stops following slavishly what the FIC people are doing and does something new and exciting The community has... it has put Qtopia on the device and made it work very reasonably, I think. (such as happened this week: Mar 14 Johannes Schauer neo1973-germany starting to rumble... ) Is there anything new in Qtopia? where is the latest available please? The 4.3 branch is in bug fix mode, so nothing substantial there. Most work is being done for 4.4 The latest binary for Neo from Trolltech is at qtopia.net. You can find unofficial snapshot releases at http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/ The source code for Qtopia can be found at ftp.trolltech.com -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Saturday 15 March 2008 19:27:02 Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: ...and the Neo *is* fully open? What about the graphics module, the gps module, and the gsm module? You may get some I/O specs, but the modules themselves will never be open. They won't even release the CAD files for the case in their original form... The CAD files here: http://downloads.openmoko.org/CAD/ Are _exactly_ the files that we use (and will use) for Mass Production. Please let me know where you found this inaccuate information so we can correct it. Or is this just your opinion? Sean Hehe, pwn3d! :) Anyway, I'd like to have some approximately date again, when the Freerunner will be ready for shipping _to developers_. Is the hardware tested and approved now? Will you go into mass-production soon, or is it conceivable? If we're close now, maybe we can get some more accurate dates... Daniel ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:55:58 +0100, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend just forwarded this on to me: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? No matter the delay, I will waiting for... I'm waiting for 2years after this phone... It's not few month more which makes me get bored... and I have to say I have no phone for now... (it's my friends who are complaining, not me :)) Simple reflexion... do you want a phone now, with not finished drivers, which could not bring you garantie that hardware is ok ? I think If you want to pay an extra (for out selling circuit), you should be able to get a gta02, but don't come in one month if the v6 or v7 are solving a hardware pb which is annoying you... So here is about the Openmoko release to be delayed, but even if it's the Neo phone from FIC, I don't care, I will be waiting ;) (and I still will have to wait for the 4th operator in France, because 3 first are fiddling with price, they pay a fined but the kept the same prices...) Cheers, Tom -- Steven Le Roux [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On 16/03/2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please, give us some words about delays if there are any... NO! You don't get these words from Openmoko You already know what you get 1) full access to kernel/dev discussions - you should make your own mind up on what these mean for timescale... 2) Following announcement (prev by M Shiloh) Hello, A number of times you have asked about pre-orders. Here is the official word from our VP of Marketing: Over the next couple of months you will see the following 3 announcements: 1. When the production hardware is solid and signed off, we will announce pricing and availability. That is, we will announce the expected price and the expected date on which the web store will open. 2. When the first production run is complete, we will announce that. 3. When the phones reach the distribution centers in Europe and USA, we will open the web store and begin taking orders. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Lorn Potter wrote: The community has... it has put Qtopia on the device and made it work very reasonably, I think. The 4.3 branch is in bug fix mode, so nothing substantial there. Most work is being done for 4.4 The latest binary for Neo from Trolltech is at qtopia.net. Thanks very much. I did set up the one from qtopia.net, with a modern u-boot (5 March) u-boot-gta01bv4-1.3.1+git0+10bbb38a402a2faf18858c451bcdc63d45888e6e+svn4164-r3.bin and the two pieces supplied as qtopia-4.3.1-neo-flash.tgz which is not SD booted, it has apparently to be flashed. I was very disappointed. I don't know why it was very slow compared with what I remember earlier about qtopia. I may try again sometime in the future. regards, clare You can find unofficial snapshot releases at http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/ The source code for Qtopia can be found at ftp.trolltech.com -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Friday 14 March 2008 13:55, Tom Cooksey wrote: A friend just forwarded this on to me: but did you actually read it? However, at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference held in San Diego, California last week, the company revealed that consumers will have to wait maybe six more months to get their hands on the device. Early adopters, who are not scared of hacking around with the device software, might be able to get hold of the FreeRunner slightly earlier, OpenMoko said. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. Polished software not available til much later ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Tom Cooksey wrote: A friend just forwarded this on to me: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Please please read the SECOND WORD of the headline. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Well, slightly earlier than September doesn't read like April to me ... but hope dies last ;) Andy Powell schrieb: On Friday 14 March 2008 13:55, Tom Cooksey wrote: A friend just forwarded this on to me: but did you actually read it? However, at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference held in San Diego, California last week, the company revealed that consumers will have to wait maybe six more months to get their hands on the device. Early adopters, who are not scared of hacking around with the device software, might be able to get hold of the FreeRunner slightly earlier, OpenMoko said. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wake up, folks, the Neo/Freerunner/whatever is *NEVER* going to be available as a consumer device. troll-tastic! JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Worst.troll.ever. On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Mark wrote: Wake up, folks, the Neo/Freerunner/whatever is *NEVER* going to be available as a consumer device. It's *always* going to be a developer's plaything, and it will never settle on a reasonably static *snip* ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/14, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Wake up, folks Hello. I think I'm awake. If you want a device that's been out for a long time, has a bigger and higher-resolution screen, and *just works* right out of the box, get yourself a Nokia N800 (or if you have money to burn, an N810 First speaking about Neo being not open, it's funny to advertise a device with lots of proprietary software and problematic, very closed pieces of hardware, preventing any theoretical free software distribution to be actually usable on the device. And regarding out of the box functionality, it plays none of digital music I have since the vendor refuses to support free/open media formats, even actively fighting against them. I don't think there's currently a competitor on sight to Neo phones on openness, though of course things could always get improved. My pet peeve would be to work on i18n and open up mailing list to translators, but I guess it's again a bit later on :) -Timo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Ugh. Outside of chip firmware, what don't we have? Also, what's the standard for consumer-level devices? I've seen some terrible, terrible mobile Windows devices. These devices have a day and a half of battery life, crash about that often, and have little more than an address book, weak calendar, and a terrible web browser. What's the Openmoko software stack lacking, other than a very-needed color scheme change tool? The only thing that I don't like about the new Neo is the lack of promiscuous mode in the wifi card. As for delays, sure. But the prize still goes to PalmOS 6 devices. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
