Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
2008/11/22 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would prefer to use on their future OpenMoko device. A not so scientific survey can be found at: http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html is it possible to source a screen that has both capacitive and pressure interfaces? this way we (may) get best of both worlds or, is there any reason why one would clash with the other? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not work with styli. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
2008/11/22 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: He, actually you're right.. I withdraw that remark.. It's OK hardware, but with an excellent aesthetic design, and an innovative UI. A UI that would not have been possible if the multi-touch hardware was not in place. /Anton On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, robert lazarski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make poor hardware decisions, but the opposite. Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for anything. More clutter ;-( . So what this illustrates is that arguing in isolation a question like what kind of touchscreen to use doesn't make sense. It only makes sense in the context of what overall product or goal you're trying to achieve. Apple are good at that - but then it's vastly easier for them because their vision is of a single monoculture everywhere, and they have no interest in encouraging other options. It's much more difficult for Openmoko, because their very point is not to dictate the final product. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link: http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:52 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not work with styli. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link: http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php well, that's not what stylus means and nothing sensible (why using a thing that effectively mimics a finger into the big fat top), but ok. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Sunday 23 November 2008 16:59:18 Anton Persson wrote: afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link: http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:52 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not work with styli. the trick is basically to find a material that have the same properties as human flesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_screen#Capacitive ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Neil, We could not have said it better. In my view the surveys serve a good, albeit limited, purpose. They get ideas out in the open and expose potential shortcoming of various design decisions. In the end, design decisions are complex system dependent choices, choices made under constraint. Very rarely does anyone know or appreciate all of the constraints, especially when it comes to constraints such as cost, schedule, reliability, sourcing, etc. In some cases, under certain design philosophies the decision process is simplified somewhat by a mantra such as design to cost wherein cost drives every decision. Been there; done that. We could also optimize designs for time to market. The path we are taking, as you note, is designing for openness. What does that mean? and how do we measure it? The designs are invitations to innovation, where the insanely great product is built outside our walls. So one way to measure it is by the work the community does. Did they accept the invitation to innovate? and perhaps more importantly how far away from our vision did they wander? The farther the better. That approach strikes many as odd, but we view the open design as a decentralization of power, the hallmark of which is diversity, not homogeneity. So for example, we might ask WRT touch screens, does this design choice limit innovation or promote it. That's a tough one. Thanks for getting what we are after in our approach. Neil Jerram wrote: 2008/11/22 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: He, actually you're right.. I withdraw that remark.. It's OK hardware, but with an excellent aesthetic design, and an innovative UI. A UI that would not have been possible if the multi-touch hardware was not in place. /Anton On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, robert lazarski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make poor hardware decisions, but the opposite. Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for anything. More clutter ;-( . So what this illustrates is that arguing in isolation a question like what kind of touchscreen to use doesn't make sense. It only makes sense in the context of what overall product or goal you're trying to achieve. Apple are good at that - but then it's vastly easier for them because their vision is of a single monoculture everywhere, and they have no interest in encouraging other options. It's much more difficult for Openmoko, because their very point is not to dictate the final product. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On 21 Nov 2008, at 16:41, Tilman Baumann wrote: I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit. +1 I when I finished reading this list yesterday it had only 3 replies, and thought about replying. Unless your email address ends in @openmoko.com, please keep surveys and votes off this list! They seem to generate a very high number of posts lacking in thoughtfulness - as opposed to, say, those a thread titled capacitive screens vs touchscreens might - and it is naive to consider what kind of hardware an individual user would prefer in isolation of all the other compromises that would be required to accommodate the decision. And even more important. Price and availability. What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises are you ready to make? This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. ... I would like openmoko to do bold steps. But they should also be careful. Introduction of a multi-touch screen would only fragment the userbase. 10,000 Freerunner owners would be bitching that they can't run $new.app because it requires the new screen type; owners of the new device would be bitching that existing apps don't use the cool new interface. Hardware decisions are best made by those who actually have an insight into ALL the variables of the planned hardware. The whims of you I are simply irrelevant if Openmoko / FIC are unable to purchase multi- touch screens. In case you're not aware, hardware decisions have already been constrained by an unavailability of parts in such small quantities as those used in Openmoko devices - you might have to buy 100,000 or 1,000,000 units before the vendor will talk to you. Besides that, GTA03 is no longer subject to change - isn't it stupid to be making plans (especially when you're not in a position to do so) for GTA04 or 05, when the hardware available by that time might be quite different from what is on the market now? Thanks for cluttering up my inbox with this irrelevancy. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I would like openmoko to do bold steps. But they should also be careful. Introduction of a multi-touch screen would only fragment the userbase. 10,000 Freerunner owners would be bitching that they can't run $new.app because it requires the new screen type; owners of the new device would be bitching that existing apps don't use the cool new interface. Well, that might be true.. But the case might also be that the userbase will shrink if nothing is done. That depends on what people want from their hardware. The lack of a new type of user interface which some of us believe is far superior on a hand held device will at least make me think twice before buying a new OpenMoko.. I bought the GTA02 since I found what OpenMoko was doing a great thing and I wanted to support that good effort.. But if the hardware is always a couple or more generations behind the leading pack then it's not much use, then I'm just trying to help a hopeless cause. The phone is a hardware disabled toy. I certainly don't speak for everyone, since there are plenty of voices for the current solution as seen in this thread, but I think the user base will shrink steadily while the use of multi touch gets more and more users on the big platforms. It's the future as I see it, and either we place us in the future, or we place us in the past... With a platform as the OpenMoko we have that choice. Hardware decisions are best made by those who actually have an insight into ALL the variables of the planned hardware. The whims of you I are simply irrelevant if Openmoko / FIC are unable to purchase multi- touch screens. In case you're not aware, hardware decisions have already been constrained by an unavailability of parts in such small quantities as those used in Openmoko devices - you might have to buy 100,000 or 1,000,000 units before the vendor will talk to you. Yes, that's makes it a catch 22, because if you don't put together a hardware solution that is good enough, then the amount of people buying it will be small... And if you can't sell enough then you can't buy the good parts.. If that makes you aim low, then why bother at all? Besides that, GTA03 is no longer subject to change - isn't it stupid to be making plans (especially when you're not in a position to do so) for GTA04 or 05, when the hardware available by that time might be quite different from what is on the market now? I know that the GTA03 is probably all decided hardware wise... But I think this might be a good discussion anyway. And the market is big, apple has shown that... And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make poor hardware decisions, but the opposite. There's still a future out there tomorrow and if we want to we can be part of it too. Best regards Anton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make poor hardware decisions, but the opposite. Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for anything. More clutter ;-( . - R ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Saturday 22 November 2008, Anton Persson wrote: Hi, I think this is the best argument for the need of a precision stylus yet. However, as I see it, if you make this argument it means that you want a phone that works just like your desktop computer, but which you can carry along easily.. Maybe an EeePC is better suited? I have an Aspire One, but it's too big to carry all the time. I'm looking for something to replace my old and dying Psion 5. I had high hopes when EPOC32 became Symbian that a suitable smartphone would appear, but one of the first things they did was to remove the office type apps. The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet application or a word processor. For you maybe, but Abiword and Gnumeric are working fine for me. If you want those applications then you need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display. The Psion's only half-VGA and it works fine there. The Psion does make better use of the screen space, but that's an application issue. Then add the fact that using the Ilume keyboard with a spreadsheet is, well, daunting. I can't imagine the pain I would feel if I had to go through that ordeal. For you maybe, but it's fine for me in light use. If I need to do anything heavier there's always the Bluetooth keyboard. So yes, the current situation makes it easy to _run_ ye old' X applications we all love on the desktop... But _using_ them in this setup.. I don't think so. If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you really could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack. Exactly the same situations where I use them on the Psion, probably more because I would carry it in situations where even the Psion is too big. When I first got the Psion I found myself using it in many more situations than I had expected, simply because it was there and it worked. On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you would enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current OpenMoko... Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko. (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled resistive screen, but I never heard of such a thing...) I've never seen a commercial one, but I don't think it presents too many technical hurdles. unfortunately Openmoko aren't big enough to push a manufacturer to make such a thing, unlike Apple. Best regards Anton Persson On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Leonti Bielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we need capacitive display? We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing it in software. Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone platform? Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail). What I mean is that the ability to use other objects to manipulate the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet application or a word processor. For you maybe, but Abiword and Gnumeric are working fine for me. True, that's my own opinion. I think the display is too small and the input method is too hard. But I must confess; I generally don't use anything other than Emacs and Eclipse for anything close to word processing and one of the things with emacs is that you really need a keyboard with it.. :-P If you want those applications then you need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display. The Psion's only half-VGA and it works fine there. The Psion does make better use of the screen space, but that's an application issue. Which means that you would still be happy if you had a slightly bigger display and a slightly thicker stylus, right? Maybe even happier if you could use both your thumbs to push buttons on the on-screen keyboard. (For shift/alt keys etc. But of course, that could be solved by adding a couple of more real buttons..) If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you really could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack. Exactly the same situations where I use them on the Psion, probably more because I would carry it in situations where even the Psion is too big. When I first got the Psion I found myself using it in many more situations than I had expected, simply because it was there and it worked. OK, that's a convincing example to me. But I'm not convinced that a capacitive screen+stylus would prevent you from doing the same things. The iPhone has a bigger display but is in total smaller than the OpenMoko, and correct me (again) if I'm wrong, but aren't there some sort of word-processor for the iPhone too? On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you would enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current OpenMoko... Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko. (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled resistive screen, but I never heard of such a thing...) I've never seen a commercial one, but I don't think it presents too many technical hurdles. unfortunately Openmoko aren't big enough to push a manufacturer to make such a thing, unlike Apple. True, which means we will probably never see a resistive multi touch enabled screen on an OpenMoko... Best regards Anton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, 2008-11-21 at 17:41 +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit. The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution matters too. And even more important. Price and availability. What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises are you ready to make? This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking at sold units in retrospect. What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now. I would like openmoko to do bold steps. But they should also be careful. Tilman Baumann wrote: Vikas Saurabh wrote: I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well Agree. Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad. I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) I admit I voted for capacitive screen without consider all the aspect. My primary reason was more protected screen and force finger friendly (which more or less not exist now, more a software issue). I have a pda I use mostly for car navigation the bigger screen is nice there. I also use it for connect to internet, use it as voip phone, when possible, using wifi. It does not have build in gps what was main reason why I bought my neo (and better portability). I like the size on neo maybe a little slimmer and I dont want it to be bigger because then it would be more trouble some to bring with me all over. My pda is to big I can just squeeze it into my jacket inside pocket but I have often accidentally activated it often with drain battery. My pda have the normal 5 navigation buttons + 4 application buttons below screen. I never use the navigation buttons only the 4 application button mostly because I can program them to whatever to activate things even other programs use the full screen and no hide function. I like the size and resolution of current neo and the fact that it can be used for stylus in case programs not finger friendly even it be rare. Maybe the edge could be smaller so a finger easily can press all the way to the edge. I can see the benefit for a few buttons to assist a GUI that need a bigger screen area. If I just needed a small linux computer to run desktop like applications then I wanted a full keyboard but then whole benefit of small size and very easy portability is gone then. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Vikas Saurabh wrote: I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well Agree. Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad. I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well --Vikas On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would prefer to use on their future OpenMoko device. A not so scientific survey can be found at: http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html Best regards Anton Persson ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Then a capacitive screen would do wonders for motivating the development of proper finger-input on the keypad... ;-D On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vikas Saurabh wrote: I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well Agree. Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad. I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) Same for me: 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit) 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :) 3. Current touch technology Regards Michele Renda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkmvJ0ACgkQSIAU/I6SkT0V/wCfTeKrtfijXxS3Ah6mtHcM8IbH q8wAnjv4v5jSWlKkts5NiW516vwqCmiA =23uE -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Michele Renda wrote: [...] Same for me: 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit) 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :) 3. Current touch technology And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border. I suppose it would be possible to make borderless case so my point be invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one. Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. Aliasid On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Lech Karol Pawłaszek [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Michele Renda wrote: [...] Same for me: 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit) 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :) 3. Current touch technology And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border. I suppose it would be possible to make borderless case so my point be invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one. Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Am Friday 21 November 2008 14:58:47 schrieb Lech Karol Pawłaszek: And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border. I suppose it would be possible to make borderless case so my point be invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one. That would be awsum, sadly I neither have the skills to do so nor the machines. :( -Marcel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other damaging things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be preferable. Best regards, Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Lech Karol Pawłaszek [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Michele Renda wrote: [...] Same for me: 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit) 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :) 3. Current touch technology And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border. I suppose it would be possible to make borderless case so my point be invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one. Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Al Iasid ha scritto: IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. Aliasid +++ definitely agree :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
nothing a good screenprotector can't prevent 2008/11/21 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other damaging things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be preferable. Best regards, Anton ___ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nothing a good screenprotector can't prevent 2008/11/21 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other damaging things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be preferable. You can have a stylus for the capacitive screens: http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php Donno if you can get it finer than that. Personally, the stylus is a pain 90% of the time. The last bit it's very useful, but IMHO not worth the pain the rest of the time. A 480x640 screen can show a lot of information, even if it's navigated by finger-only. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
My two reais. My choince is a capacitive screen, and we must consider the user finger interaction when developing applications. Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget, what we NEED is an easy way to handle the phone, carry a stylus should not be a good idea, is a step backwards. The final product is a button less phone. You only need the screen for all operations. Dot period. -- Denis Brazil On 21/11/2008, at 10:55, Anton Persson wrote: Hi, it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would prefer to use on their future OpenMoko device. A not so scientific survey can be found at: http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html Best regards Anton Persson ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Larger screen. More real estate for a keyboard, basically, the current ones are just on the boundary of unusable with a finger and anything bigger would take up too much space; you need a comfortable amount of space for the application and the on screen input. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Survey-about-the-Touchscreen-tp1561613p1561964.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there for a resistive screen? Best regards, Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I agree that you don't need a stylus for all operations, and I don't usually need one with the current touch screen, so I don't see why opt for a less capable one (like the iPhone one). Rui On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:29:35PM -0200, Denis Galvão wrote: My two reais. My choince is a capacitive screen, and we must consider the user finger interaction when developing applications. Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget, what we NEED is an easy way to handle the phone, carry a stylus should not be a good idea, is a step backwards. The final product is a button less phone. You only need the screen for all operations. Dot period. -- Denis Brazil On 21/11/2008, at 10:55, Anton Persson wrote: Hi, it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would prefer to use on their future OpenMoko device. A not so scientific survey can be found at: http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.htmlhttp://www.733kru.org/%7Epltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html Best regards Anton Persson ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- All Hail Discordia! Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
maybe it's just me, but the pictures on http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php seem to indicate that this is one big mother fucker of a stylus, i mean, the diameter of the stylusis is almost as big as the surface of the tip of you fingers you use to click... (keep in mind you use an area with a much smaller diameter than your finger diameter when operating the TS with your fingers) same type of TS, AT LEAST as big, preferably bigger and no borders is how I would like it to be On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there for a resistive screen? Best regards, Anton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Novelty-factor? Have you ever used an iPhone for a longer period? I know several people who own one now , and they would _NEVER_ turn back to anything like a stylus controlled device, again. I really would _LOVE_ an iPhone, if it came with Free Software... But the novelty factor-argument has been used before... Like when the cell-phone started to be more generally available.. It's just a novelty for the guys at Wall Street... Yeah right... How many of you have cut of the land-line and gone 100% mobile? I have, and there's no looking back. Sure, there was benefits like a lower price per minute, but that's all gone now, almost.. It's certainly not worth the difference any more, and the cell has so many more pro's than the landline... It's the same with the resistive vs capacitive approach, as I see it. There is only one pro with the resistive one, and that's an extremely low pro.. Especially if there is indeed a stylus, albeit with a rather big tip. For the argument that you can use a smaller display if you use a stylus, yeah that's true.. But the OpenMoko looks very poor with such a small display and a HUGE area of NOTHING around it, which could have been used for display purposes instead. Best regards Anton Persson On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Persson wrote: Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there for a resistive screen? This stylus is not much smaller than a finger tip. I will not say that capacitive is bad, but it is certainly a much bigger challenge for gui development. I'm not sure we are ready for this... And I'm not convinced that a iphone like system is the right platform for a really versatile smartphone. I'm convinced that people will start to see the iphone UI as a limitation when the novelty factor waers off. We should take the best from the iphone (good productive finger controlled apps) but we should not totally commit to this. And I'm not sure that multi touch is really so important and the low res touch sensitivity of the iphone started to anoy me really fast. Text input on a iphone is better than T9, but not really good. We need a bigger screen that's for sure. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Me too, high-res is all good.. But high-res does NOT preclude the use of a capacitive display.. So that's no argument for the classic type... On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Denis Galvo wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
2008/11/21 Al Iasid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place. (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails) The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity, I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software is. I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise. If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not. Regards, -- Damien Thebault ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote: 2008/11/21 Al Iasid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place. (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails) The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity, I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software is. I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise. If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not. If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed enough for making a written signature :) -- Grudnuk demand sustenance! Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
To just view the current standings in the poll: http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpresult/509337-120694 On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote: 2008/11/21 Al Iasid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place. (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails) The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity, I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software is. I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise. If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not. If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed enough for making a written signature :) -- Grudnuk demand sustenance! Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit. The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution matters too. And even more important. Price and availability. What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises are you ready to make? This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking at sold units in retrospect. What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now. I would like openmoko to do bold steps. But they should also be careful. Tilman Baumann wrote: Vikas Saurabh wrote: I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well Agree. Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad. I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
I don't care about the poll. I care about a rich user experience, and what the iPhone has of best is not due to the touchscreen (with the exception of physical area and no huge border) :) On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 05:13:50PM +0100, Anton Persson wrote: To just view the current standings in the poll: http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpresult/509337-120694 On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote: 2008/11/21 Al Iasid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most intimate personal device. There should be no intermediary in the user interface. I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place. (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails) The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity, I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software is. I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise. If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not. If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed enough for making a written signature :) -- Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Novelty-factor? Have you ever used an iPhone for a longer period? I know several people who own one now , and they would _NEVER_ turn back to anything like a stylus controlled device, again. I really would _LOVE_ an iPhone, if it came with Free Software... my experience is different. i didn't try iPhone myself, though. (i refuse to use anything from a company like apple,) but i know two people with iPhones and both would not buy one again. biggest problem for them is that it is a bad phone (bad audio quality) and they lose calls sometimes because it just does not ring. (never heard of any phone doing that! ;-) ) second problem is the low resolution. dunno about the touch, though. just my 2 cents ... clemens ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. So, give me a reason where you will need that. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
And I'm not sure that multi touch is really so important and the low res I do not know if it's important, but being restricted to events of the form mouse-1-down, mouse-1-up, and mouse-move is problematic in my experience. So if we can't have multi-touch sensitivity, we need some other source of input. It could be buttons on the sides (e.g. I could imagine a phone where you use one hand for the touchscreen while the other hand holds the phone and can squeeze it to generate a modifier kind of event). For usability, I think it's important that this other source of input be usable at the same time as the touchscreen is used to move the cursor (so you can get similar effects as the 2-finger scroll, for exemples, or the mouse-3 context menus) so it probably would have to be activated by the other hand. Stefan PS: I'm not even considering single-handed use. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Me too, high-res is all good.. But high-res does NOT preclude the use of Actually, the high-res is one of the highlights of the FR for me. So, while I don't need 280dpi, I wouldn't settle for less than 200dpi for a gadget I hold so close to my eyes. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 01:16:36PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: I do not know if it's important, but being restricted to events of the form mouse-1-down, mouse-1-up, and mouse-move is problematic in my experience. Apple has handled that quite nicely for a long time with one button mice. But I do agree a modifier button would be desireable (like the option key is -- or was a long time ago -- on the Macintosh). Rui -- Grudnuk demand sustenance! Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote: [...] my experience is different. i didn't try iPhone myself, though. (i refuse to use anything from a company like apple,) but i know two people Well. I have used iPhone for a while. It is indeed quite nice. Easy to learn and fun to use. with iPhones and both would not buy one again. biggest problem for them is that it is a bad phone (bad audio quality) and they lose calls sometimes because it just does not ring. (never heard of any phone doing that! ;-) ) second problem is the low resolution. dunno about the touch, though. it just does not ring. Don't show Freerunner to your friends (yet)! ;-) I liked iPhone's UI. The first perceptible difference from Freerunner is that Apple's product works. Freerunner still lacks major functionality (like ringing and so). OTOH I believe that having finger controllable applications (iPhone style) on stylus capable touchscreen is a way to go. Freerunner is a small computer - sometimes I need precise pointer. Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
OK, let's compare the number of sold units... How many iPhone 2G and 3G have been sold? I figure it's quite a lot... Of course you have to consider what compromises you have to make. What have apple surrendered when they selected the capacitive screen instead of the resistive? What have they gained? ... That's the things that we have discussed... Does a capacitive display restrict the resolution? No. One thing I would like to have answered is, how good can you make multi-touch support with a resistive display? Best regards Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit. The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution matters too. And even more important. Price and availability. What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises are you ready to make? This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking at sold units in retrospect. What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now. I would like openmoko to do bold steps. But they should also be careful. Tilman Baumann wrote: Vikas Saurabh wrote: I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone might get excited with iPhone's UI. What we would have to remember: * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun of high reso is gone * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but is often manageable with fingers as well Agree. Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad. I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes pretty much failed) -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
+1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows people's minds away atm... 2008/11/21 Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Denis Galvao wrote: On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. So, give me a reason where you will need that. As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to the Openmoko phones. Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone, especially when a soft keyboard is needed. So reducing the resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage. In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on a machine you intend to run a web browser on. Right now, when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses them is the display. It would be a shame if OM dropped the one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what is found on other smartphones. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel, can you not? /Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows people's minds away atm... 2008/11/21 Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Denis Galvao wrote: On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. So, give me a reason where you will need that. As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to the Openmoko phones. Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone, especially when a soft keyboard is needed. So reducing the resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage. In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on a machine you intend to run a web browser on. Right now, when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses them is the display. It would be a shame if OM dropped the one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what is found on other smartphones. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
sorry for being imprecise. I was referring to the amazing resolution considering the size of the display. The freerunner got 300 dpi IIRC. For comparison, the iphone only seems to have 160. I usually demo the crispness (if you will) of my neo's screen using top on the terminal at the smallest readable fontsize to great effect :) 2008/11/21 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel, can you not? /Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows people's minds away atm... 2008/11/21 Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Denis Galvao wrote: On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. So, give me a reason where you will need that. As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to the Openmoko phones. Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone, especially when a soft keyboard is needed. So reducing the resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage. In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on a machine you intend to run a web browser on. Right now, when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses them is the display. It would be a shame if OM dropped the one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what is found on other smartphones. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Big resolution means better image quality. We can run qvga apps on our vga screen, don't we? But how can we run vga apps on qvga screen? VGA screen is a step forward, QVGA is a step backward. For me it's clear. Leonti On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Thorben Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sorry for being imprecise. I was referring to the amazing resolution considering the size of the display. The freerunner got 300 dpi IIRC. For comparison, the iphone only seems to have 160. I usually demo the crispness (if you will) of my neo's screen using top on the terminal at the smallest readable fontsize to great effect :) 2008/11/21 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel, can you not? /Anton On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows people's minds away atm... 2008/11/21 Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Denis Galvao wrote: On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote: Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget I could not possibly disagree more strongly. So, give me a reason where you will need that. As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to the Openmoko phones. Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone, especially when a soft keyboard is needed. So reducing the resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage. In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on a machine you intend to run a web browser on. Right now, when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses them is the display. It would be a shame if OM dropped the one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what is found on other smartphones. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Why do we need capacitive display? We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing it in software. Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone platform? Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail). What I mean is that the ability to use other objects to manipulate the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, 2008-11-21 at 13:16 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: So if we can't have multi-touch sensitivity, we need some other source of input. It could be buttons on the sides (e.g. I could imagine a phone where you use one hand for the touchscreen while the other hand holds the phone and can squeeze it to generate a modifier kind of event). For usability, I think it's important that this other source of input be usable at the same time as the touchscreen is used to move the cursor (so you can get similar effects as the 2-finger scroll, for exemples, or the mouse-3 context menus) so it probably would have to be activated by the other hand. I agree, a scroll wheel and an extra button on the side of the Freerunner, something like the old Sony Clie PDAs would be great, or maybe a tiny trackball/scrollball like the one on the Apple mouse would be useful. I would love the capacitive multitouch screen but not at the expense of input resolution. Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
Hi, I think this is the best argument for the need of a precision stylus yet. However, as I see it, if you make this argument it means that you want a phone that works just like your desktop computer, but which you can carry along easily.. Maybe an EeePC is better suited? The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet application or a word processor. If you want those applications then you need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display. Then add the fact that using the Ilume keyboard with a spreadsheet is, well, daunting. I can't imagine the pain I would feel if I had to go through that ordeal. So yes, the current situation makes it easy to _run_ ye old' X applications we all love on the desktop... But _using_ them in this setup.. I don't think so. If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you really could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack. On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you would enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current OpenMoko... Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko. (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled resistive screen, but I never heard of such a thing...) Best regards Anton Persson On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Leonti Bielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we need capacitive display? We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing it in software. Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone platform? Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail). What I mean is that the ability to use other objects to manipulate the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
