Re: [computer-go] Liberties in Many Faces
On May 31, 2009, at 9:27 PM, David Fotland wrote: 1) yes. I maintain liberty counts during MC playouts. 2) Something else. I remove one liberty from the adjacent chain, then look at the empty points adjacent to the new stone and check if they are also adjacent to the adjacent chain, and adjust the liberty counts accordingly. At most 3 checks are required. I only have to walk a full chain when a move merges two or more chains. I hope this is clear :) Crystal clear -- thanks! Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] UCT tree pruning
Hi. I've been thinking about pondering, and the way the tree has to be built to support pondering. Because with pondering, the thinking time for a move can be very big theoretically, I would like to handle automatic pruning of the tree to avoid running out of memory. Right now I have a fixed size pool of nodes, and I simply stop the tree from growing when I see that all nodes are used. However I'm afraid this could hurt the performance when thinking times are very long. This brings me to my question: When I see that I'm running out of memory, which leaves/subtrees of the UCT tree should be pruned? -Prune moves with a low winrate and a low variance. This would favor nodes near the root, and often lots of memory would be freed this way. However, one has to be careful not to prune potentially good moves. -Prune leaf nodes with little visits that are old. This would have a small impact on the UCT search but the memory freed is very little, meaning I would have to do a lot of pruning. Another approach would be of course to just let the tree grow indefinitely and hope that it will not use too much memory, but I'm not sure it would work well in all situations. What do you do in your programs? Have you tested other approaches? Do you think hard pruning is bad in general? Regards, -ibd -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: stv is Steenvreter
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Nick Wedd explained: stv is Steenvreter. Its creator is indeed Erik van der Werf, whose KGS account is evdw. Its name is Dutch for stone eater... Congratulations to Erik van der Warf for the Win! Thanks! By the way, Steenvreter is such a nice name. You should call your baby by full name on KGS. Ingo. PS: van der Warf is also nice, but I understand when you want to keep that short. When I registered the kgs account for Steenvreter the name was too long, so I had to shorten it :-( I've update stv's profile to show Steenvreter under 'Real Name' BTW My last name is Werf (not Warf, and even if you wanted to translate that it would become Wharf). Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: stv is Steenvreter
Hi Erik, By the way, Steenvreter is such a nice name. You should call your baby by full name on KGS. When I registered the kgs account for Steenvreter the name was too long, so I had to shorten it :-( I've update stv's profile to show Steenvreter under 'Real Name' Thanks. 10 letters seem to be the maximum length for KGS names. Might Stenvreter be acceptable for you, or SteenEater, or ...? BTW My last name is Werf (not Warf, and even if you wanted to translate that it would become Wharf). Sorry for the typo. I mixed your name up with the german Warft, which are artificial high places on the little Hallig islands in Germany. Ingo. -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] The Shodan Go Bet
Back in 1997 I made a $1000 bet with John Tromp that he wouldn't be beaten my a computer before 2011. I've made a page to publicize the bet: http://dcook.org/gobet/ I hope it is accessible beyond just the experts on this list, and can help bring some publicity for computer go generally. So please link to this page, blog about it, tell your friends, etc. (I'm hoping to have a Japanese translation soon; I'll announce that when it is ready.) From that page you can also vote with your opinion (and then leave a comment) on who you think will win the bet, and also when you think a computer program will beat the world champion. Have fun! :-) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: The Shodan Go Bet
Darren Cook wrote: Back in 1997 I made a $1000 bet with John Tromp that he wouldn't be beaten my a computer before 2011. I've made a page to publicize the bet: http://dcook.org/gobet/ Interesting. Can you add John Trump's current/recent view on the bet to your site? Ingo. -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] The Shodan Go Bet
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org wrote: Back in 1997 I made a $1000 bet with John Tromp that he wouldn't be beaten my a computer before 2011. That seems like a bad bet. Why would John be motivated to try to win if he would lose $1000 by winning the game? - Don I've made a page to publicize the bet: http://dcook.org/gobet/ I hope it is accessible beyond just the experts on this list, and can help bring some publicity for computer go generally. So please link to this page, blog about it, tell your friends, etc. (I'm hoping to have a Japanese translation soon; I'll announce that when it is ready.) From that page you can also vote with your opinion (and then leave a comment) on who you think will win the bet, and also when you think a computer program will beat the world champion. Have fun! :-) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] The Shodan Go Bet
Ok, I read your link on the bet and now I understand. The bet you made was that John Tromp WOULD be beaten, not that he would not. I don't bet, but if I did I would feel that John's money is safe. This is exactly what computer Go needs. Tangible goals, very specific proposals on benchmark matches, and no handicap matches against players who are not so strong that a computer victory is out of the question, but strong enough to make a statement about where computers stand so far. I also applaud the fact that this is a 10 game match and not less. Technically more is better, but for logistical and practical reasons I can understand that 10 games is a reasonable limit. - Don On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org wrote: Back in 1997 I made a $1000 bet with John Tromp that he wouldn't be beaten my a computer before 2011. That seems like a bad bet. Why would John be motivated to try to win if he would lose $1000 by winning the game? - Don I've made a page to publicize the bet: http://dcook.org/gobet/ I hope it is accessible beyond just the experts on this list, and can help bring some publicity for computer go generally. So please link to this page, blog about it, tell your friends, etc. (I'm hoping to have a Japanese translation soon; I'll announce that when it is ready.) From that page you can also vote with your opinion (and then leave a comment) on who you think will win the bet, and also when you think a computer program will beat the world champion. Have fun! :-) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
In dimwit we simply increase the number of visits to a node before it is added to the UCT tree, to slow down its growth. I wasn't too happy about how selective the tree got with a long time to think, but it's unclear if this particular hack had anything to do with that. Álvaro. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi. I've been thinking about pondering, and the way the tree has to be built to support pondering. Because with pondering, the thinking time for a move can be very big theoretically, I would like to handle automatic pruning of the tree to avoid running out of memory. Right now I have a fixed size pool of nodes, and I simply stop the tree from growing when I see that all nodes are used. However I'm afraid this could hurt the performance when thinking times are very long. This brings me to my question: When I see that I'm running out of memory, which leaves/subtrees of the UCT tree should be pruned? -Prune moves with a low winrate and a low variance. This would favor nodes near the root, and often lots of memory would be freed this way. However, one has to be careful not to prune potentially good moves. -Prune leaf nodes with little visits that are old. This would have a small impact on the UCT search but the memory freed is very little, meaning I would have to do a lot of pruning. Another approach would be of course to just let the tree grow indefinitely and hope that it will not use too much memory, but I'm not sure it would work well in all situations. What do you do in your programs? Have you tested other approaches? Do you think hard pruning is bad in general? Regards, -ibd -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
In dimwit we simply increase the number of visits to a node before it is added to the UCT tree, to slow down its growth. I wasn't too happy about how selective the tree got with a long time to think, but it's unclear if this particular hack had anything to do with that. Álvaro. I already do this - a node is expanded if it has 4 visits. Still, I worry about not being able to prune the tree. Are you suggesting that it is unlikely that I will run into memory problems? Isaac -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch wrote: In dimwit we simply increase the number of visits to a node before it is added to the UCT tree, to slow down its growth. I wasn't too happy about how selective the tree got with a long time to think, but it's unclear if this particular hack had anything to do with that. Álvaro. I already do this - a node is expanded if it has 4 visits. Still, I worry about not being able to prune the tree. Are you suggesting that it is unlikely that I will run into memory problems? No. We use a threshold that is a function of how large the tree already is. It starts at 5 and then we increase it as the tree grows larger. I think the exact formula scaled with something like the log(tree_size)^2, but I would have to check when I get home. Álvaro. Isaac -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
No. We use a threshold that is a function of how large the tree already is. It starts at 5 and then we increase it as the tree grows larger. I think the exact formula scaled with something like the log(tree_size)^2, but I would have to check when I get home. Álvaro. Ah, now I understand. I'm not sure if I like the idea because the tree is very much shaped based on the initial estimated values. Do you think it is not a problem that the tree might struggle to converge to the best move once it has explored a long line that doesn't work? Greetings, Isaac -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch wrote: No. We use a threshold that is a function of how large the tree already is. It starts at 5 and then we increase it as the tree grows larger. I think the exact formula scaled with something like the log(tree_size)^2, but I would have to check when I get home. Álvaro. Ah, now I understand. I'm not sure if I like the idea because the tree is very much shaped based on the initial estimated values. Do you think it is not a problem that the tree might struggle to converge to the best move once it has explored a long line that doesn't work? Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
Valkyria simply do not expand the tree when it runs out of unused nodes. That would be the most simple thing to prevent crashing. Then one could consider pruning the tree in order to be able to expand the tree even deeper. -Magnus Quoting Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch: Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Magnus Persson Berlin, Germany ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch wrote: Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p But is it better? I think it's not so obvious without thorough testing. Pruning throw away information that is lost forever and may need to be recalculated. Requiring more simulations does not throw out results, but results in some inefficiencies. So it's not clear to me which is better - it may even be that it depends on how much you push it. I am just guessing but I would guess that pruning is better in the short term, worse in the longer term. Imagine a search at a corespondence level, where the computer thinks for 24 hours. Which method is best there? Could you use hard disk or SSD? Using some kind of caching system, where you relegate the oldest unvisited nodes to the hard dirve. It may be that nodes you might normally prune are unlikely to get used again but if they do you still have the data.This is no good unless you can guarantee that the disk is used very infrequently - but with SSD it may be more practical. - Don -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
It seems that it would be better to always expand after one visit, and prune nodes with less than N visits, than to only expand after N visits. I expand after every visit and prune nodes with few visits when I need to. Davdi -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Isaac Deutsch Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:23 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning But is it better? I think it's not so obvious without thorough testing. - Don OK. It seems difficult to find a good rule to prune moves/nodes. I just had an additional idea. You could make the treshold for expanding a node a function of the tree size AND the depth the node is at in the tree. This could somewhat counterbalance the effect of the tree becoming very selective. Do you think that might work? -ibd -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
Congratulations to Steenvreter, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with three more wins than its nearest rival! The results are now at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/47/index.html As usual, I look forward to your reports of the errors on that page. I will also welcome opinions and preferences about the format of such events in future. Attendances got low towards the end of last year, so I gave them up for a few months. The last two, in April and May, have each had six players, which I consider just about enough to make them worth running. But I would prefer more, and would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
I've optimized my disk access to the point where I'm mostly CPU limited now, even when using a standard hard disk instead of an SSD. I can now create trees of up to about 30 billion nodes, which would take about a week. The simulation rate is continuously going down because so much time is spent in UCT loops in the huge tree. Don Dailey wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch mailto:i...@gmx.ch wrote: Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p But is it better? I think it's not so obvious without thorough testing. Pruning throw away information that is lost forever and may need to be recalculated. Requiring more simulations does not throw out results, but results in some inefficiencies. So it's not clear to me which is better - it may even be that it depends on how much you push it. I am just guessing but I would guess that pruning is better in the short term, worse in the longer term. Imagine a search at a corespondence level, where the computer thinks for 24 hours. Which method is best there? Could you use hard disk or SSD? Using some kind of caching system, where you relegate the oldest unvisited nodes to the hard dirve. It may be that nodes you might normally prune are unlikely to get used again but if they do you still have the data.This is no good unless you can guarantee that the disk is used very infrequently - but with SSD it may be more practical. - Don -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote: I've optimized my disk access to the point where I'm mostly CPU limited now, even when using a standard hard disk instead of an SSD. I can now create trees of up to about 30 billion nodes, which would take about a week. The simulation rate is continuously going down because so much time is spent in UCT loops in the huge tree. That's impressive. Are you doing things which move parts of the tree onto the disk and back when needed? I'm curious about the details! - Don Don Dailey wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch mailto: i...@gmx.ch wrote: Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p But is it better? I think it's not so obvious without thorough testing. Pruning throw away information that is lost forever and may need to be recalculated. Requiring more simulations does not throw out results, but results in some inefficiencies. So it's not clear to me which is better - it may even be that it depends on how much you push it. I am just guessing but I would guess that pruning is better in the short term, worse in the longer term. Imagine a search at a corespondence level, where the computer thinks for 24 hours. Which method is best there? Could you use hard disk or SSD? Using some kind of caching system, where you relegate the oldest unvisited nodes to the hard dirve. It may be that nodes you might normally prune are unlikely to get used again but if they do you still have the data.This is no good unless you can guarantee that the disk is used very infrequently - but with SSD it may be more practical. - Don -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
SlugGo has not been participating because we had made no progress. I hope to have something by the end of summer. Cheers, David On 1, Jun 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nick Wedd wrote: would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UCT tree pruning
Yes, when memory is full, I save and free all leaf nodes (which is the vast majority). Nodes are loaded as needed. Don Dailey wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com mailto:michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote: I've optimized my disk access to the point where I'm mostly CPU limited now, even when using a standard hard disk instead of an SSD. I can now create trees of up to about 30 billion nodes, which would take about a week. The simulation rate is continuously going down because so much time is spent in UCT loops in the huge tree. That's impressive. Are you doing things which move parts of the tree onto the disk and back when needed? I'm curious about the details! - Don Don Dailey wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Isaac Deutsch i...@gmx.ch mailto:i...@gmx.ch mailto:i...@gmx.ch mailto:i...@gmx.ch wrote: Well, I'll take that over crashing with an out-of-memory error. :) Still, pruning seems better to me and has the same effect. ;p But is it better? I think it's not so obvious without thorough testing. Pruning throw away information that is lost forever and may need to be recalculated. Requiring more simulations does not throw out results, but results in some inefficiencies. So it's not clear to me which is better - it may even be that it depends on how much you push it. I am just guessing but I would guess that pruning is better in the short term, worse in the longer term. Imagine a search at a corespondence level, where the computer thinks for 24 hours. Which method is best there? Could you use hard disk or SSD? Using some kind of caching system, where you relegate the oldest unvisited nodes to the hard dirve. It may be that nodes you might normally prune are unlikely to get used again but if they do you still have the data.This is no good unless you can guarantee that the disk is used very infrequently - but with SSD it may be more practical. - Don -- Nur bis 31.05.: GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote: Congratulations to Steenvreter, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with three more wins than its nearest rival! The results are now at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/47/index.html Thanks! As usual, I look forward to your reports of the errors on that page. Regarding the game between Fuego and Steenvreter in round 7. As far as I can see White 42 (marked in your diagram) was a blunder by Fuego (it has to capture at d1 to win the capturing race). Unfortunately Steenvreter did not understand the position either (it should have taken a liberty at e4 instead of capturing the marked stone). I will also welcome opinions and preferences about the format of such events in future. Attendances got low towards the end of last year, so I gave them up for a few months. The last two, in April and May, have each had six players, which I consider just about enough to make them worth running. But I would prefer more, and would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. I like events with many (fast) rounds such as the one yesterday. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
One factor is that there seems to be a narrow range between too few entrants and too many. For any given contest, the potential pool includes an elite few who have a chance at first place and maybe a couple who have a new or newly improved bot. There is?a larger group, back in the pack,?whose last breakthrough was a while ago. For many of us in that last group, it would be easy enough to enter, but hard to know if that would help or hinder. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: David Doshay ddos...@mac.com To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter! SlugGo has not been participating because we had made no progress.? I hope to have something by the end of summer.? ? Cheers,? David? ? ? On 1, Jun 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nick Wedd wrote:? ? would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants.? ? ___? computer-go mailing list? computer...@computer-go.org? http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
contests are never hindered by weak opponents, in my opinion. the more the merrier the better of course! s. 2009/6/1 dhillism...@netscape.net: One factor is that there seems to be a narrow range between too few entrants and too many. For any given contest, the potential pool includes an elite few who have a chance at first place and maybe a couple who have a new or newly improved bot. There is a larger group, back in the pack, whose last breakthrough was a while ago. For many of us in that last group, it would be easy enough to enter, but hard to know if that would help or hinder. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: David Doshay ddos...@mac.com To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter! SlugGo has not been participating because we had made no progress. I hope to have something by the end of summer. Cheers, David On 1, Jun 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nick Wedd wrote: would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Wanna slim down for summer? Go to America Takes it Off to learn how. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
On Jun 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com wrote: I will also welcome opinions and preferences about the format of such events in future. Attendances got low towards the end of last year, so I gave them up for a few months. The last two, in April and May, have each had six players, which I consider just about enough to make them worth running. But I would prefer more, and would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. I like events with many (fast) rounds such as the one yesterday. Me too. It's much more fun to watch. I'd also hope for more warning time so I can ensure my bot is ready. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
In the past, I've entered bots and indicated that I would not be offended if my bot was removed. Don has made use of such offers from Aloril in the past. Maybe you could make a similar offer? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 1, 2009, at 6:33 PM, dhillism...@netscape.net wrote: One factor is that there seems to be a narrow range between too few entrants and too many. For any given contest, the potential pool includes an elite few who have a chance at first place and maybe a couple who have a new or newly improved bot. There is a larger group, back in the pack, whose last breakthrough was a while ago. For many of us in that last group, it would be easy enough to enter, but hard to know if that would help or hinder. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: David Doshay ddos...@mac.com To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter! SlugGo has not been participating because we had made no progress. I hope to have something by the end of summer. Cheers, David On 1, Jun 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nick Wedd wrote: would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Wanna slim down for summer? Go to America Takes it Off to learn how. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: The Shodan Go Bet
http://dcook.org/gobet/ Can you add John Trump's current/recent view on the bet to your site? John and I both voted Too Close To Call. But looking at the voting this morning I'm surprised to see Darren is winning, by 12 to 11 to 8. If the match was today, and I had to choose one or the other I would personally go for John to win. A couple of early comments I received also felt the same: European shodan is strong (and John is European 2 or 3-dan). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
In message 8cbb1200f1dffd9-cbc-...@mblk-m02.sysops.aol.com, dhillism...@netscape.net writes One factor is that there seems to be a narrow range between too few entrants and too many. For any given contest, the potential pool includes an elite few who have a chance at first place and maybe a couple who have a new or newly improved bot. There is a larger group, back in the pack, whose last breakthrough was a while ago. For many of us in that last group, it would be easy enough to enter, but hard to know if that would help or hinder. My view is that more entrants, including weaker entrants, help. I used to encourage Aloril to enter his deliberately weak bots, not only to fill out the numbers, but to provide suitable opponents for first time entrants. I see a purpose of these events as providing a training ground for more significant events. Some programmers concentrate too much on trying to get the bot to play well, rather than on doing basic things right. A bot that plays badly but beats IdiotBot shouldn't be too hard to achieve - so if a bot plays well but loses to IdiotBot, it is doing something wrong which really ought to be fixed. Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter!
I planned to enter this one, but I was busy, then overslept and it was already going when I got to my computer. I prefer full size boards, since that's a more difficult problem, and games at 19x19 give me more to work with. Short time limits are fine. Perhaps 19x19 with 15 or 20 minutes each? After all, that's a good time limit for games against people. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Nick Wedd Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 1:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: [computer-go] Congratulations to Steenvreter! Congratulations to Steenvreter, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, with three more wins than its nearest rival! The results are now at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/47/index.html As usual, I look forward to your reports of the errors on that page. I will also welcome opinions and preferences about the format of such events in future. Attendances got low towards the end of last year, so I gave them up for a few months. The last two, in April and May, have each had six players, which I consider just about enough to make them worth running. But I would prefer more, and would like to know what I might do to attract more entrants. Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] The Girl Who Proved P = NP
Since I learned about NP here on the computer-go mailing list, I thought I'd share this recent blog post about it. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001270.html Phil ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
