[computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
-- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
If you get a team together I'd be willing to help out with development, technical writing, and design. Would guess or hope that the server would be written in C or C++. -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Dave Dyer dd...@real-me.net wrote: Back up a bit - what's your primary interest ? I can readily believe that not many near blind play Go on the internet now, but what makes you believe a properly supportive server would bring them out of the woods, or that FSF would be interested in supporting it? And if so, why must it be open source? I think a fully-fleshed-out vision would need to be developed before going any further. There's lots of things that the current crop of servers don't offer, but finding an ordered set to rally people around is non-trivial. cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Pachi/fuego GnuGo hybrid
Hi! On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 07:14:59AM +, petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone tried doing pachi/Fuego + GnuGo hybrid slightly in way Many FAces is done? If I understood correctly Manyfaces is mostly a plausible move generator. And serac is widened via the RAVE. So simplest hybrid could rather simple words that often used before huge effort taking for ever. When a new node is initialized: Contact GnuGo using GTP and load situation, send genmove, send topmoves and you have a starting point for simulations. I'm not aware of such a project but it has been on my mind for some time as well. I think this would be a great thing to try; I also plan to add simple support for biasing only root node or nodes that already have large number of visits, exactly to support expensive evaluation functions - I guess it would be useful for this as well. Asking GnuGo for evaluation of all moves would be awfully expensive, I think. I'm not sure if MCTS ManyFaces uses the old evaluation function only for top moves, it would be great to share other information like LD and semeai critical moves; perhaps GNUGo even provides interface to get these as well. Obviously this is not what GG was designed for and will do loads of overhead but could be interesting. I would have tried I but I could not get Pachi to compile under Cygwin and currently I do not a linux machine. Also Fuego had some problems building under cygwin -and has steeper learning curve. Also it would slow under cygwin. At least Pachi multicore due to threading. I'm sorry, I cannot help much with making Pachi work on Cygwin work as I'm only very little familiar with Windows or Cygwin - but if you get it to work (please send a patch if any changes are required!), I can help you out with troubles you would encounter from there on. Not too long ago, Ben Lambrechts has been able to compile Pachi on Cygwin, perhaps he could share some tips? But maybe something changed in Pachi in the meantime that broke the Cygwin build... Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 09:00:44AM +0100, Ben Lambrechts wrote: At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I have been in touch with wms as well and I understand his reasons to keep KGS in particular closed-source. At the same time I would certainly prefer to use an open-source server and over time, I think most KGS users would do the same for all the benefits (even if they have no idea what open-source is). I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. I think it is very difficult to just attract people to an abstract idea or project and in my open-source history, I have pretty bad experience with these - they aren't very likely to produce anything tangible. It is a lot easier to just hack together a simple barely working prototype in few days/weeks, then start rallying people around _that_. Most community-driven OSS projects are a lot more evolution than intelligent design and this corresponds to that fact. Bored developers like something they can evolve and play with rather than just design and dream up specs, and when it comes to the implementation, their attention span is already over. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. While working on it is probably pretty out of question for me due to already being horribly overloaded, I have given this some thought and researched a bit: (i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. (iii) NNGS talks using same protocol as IGS. IGS' protocol being open, there is huge host of Go software already supporting IGS, including open-source software like qgo and many mobile applications. This is huge advantage (though none of the open-source clients probably come anywhere close to cgoban3 quality right now). (iv) NNGS code base is not pretty. I have seen much worse, but it's not too nice to work with, over time many things would have to be refactored. Two nice examples are hardcoded chatroom numbers and ugly macro-based localization system (inst. of gettext). It's written in C. (v) IGS protocol does not support two key KGS features per se: open games and presence in multiple chat rooms. It could be extended to support these features and others in mostly-backwards-compatible fashion, but only with some pain. (I'm also not sure about review capabilities of the IGS protocol, but I have not investigated.) (vi) Using custom protocol makes sense if you are developing both server and client hard-tied together by some underlying library, akin to how KGS is built. However, I believe abstracting the protocol is more work during the development, but much more viable solution long-term, enabling free competition both on the server and the client side, and allowing clients on a wide variety of platforms. If you are really interested, I think using NNGS as a code base merits consideration, and I think using and extending already existing, well-documented and already widely supported IGS protocol makes huge amount of sense. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
(i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. I don't think that's correct - NNGS was a functional copy of IGS created by duplicating the published (telnet based) interfaces. It eventually was open sourced before it died. (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. NNGS is alive and well as software, but no one is actively running a copy for human use as far as I know. Boardspace is still running a completely ignored copy, intended to be used by robots. http://boardspace.net/nngs/ If one wanted to develop a client for the blind, you could certainly start with a NNGS clone as your target server, and one of the open source IGS clients as your client. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
In message 88fb322c100118q4420480erfaeb5965f0a13...@mail.gmail.com, Ben Lambrechts benedic...@fedoraproject.org writes -- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. I think there must be many more than four on-line real-time Go servers. When I last counted (more than five years ago) there were about 50. The largest, in terms of users, was at http://www.ourgame.com, with over 20,000 Go-players connected at one time. I don't read Chinese, so I can't tell you if it still supports Go. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. Like NNGS? Nick I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Hi Benjamin Teuber from Germany works for IGS to make the official client more attractive to western players, e.g. he plans to add a kgs-like-review-tool. You can tell him your wishes (like making igs usable for near blind people) and if possible he will add them to glgo in the future. Wolfgang Krames Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:48:01 + To: computer-go@computer-go.org From: n...@maproom.co.uk Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server CC: gnugo-de...@gnu.org; campai...@fsf.org In message 88fb322c100118q4420480erfaeb5965f0a13...@mail.gmail.com, Ben Lambrechts benedic...@fedoraproject.org writes -- Forwarded message -- From: Giudici Raphaël raphael.giud...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM Subject: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server To: gn...@gnu.org Cc: campai...@fsf.org Hi, I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. As you probably know, there are 4 (not counting yahoo games etc ... ) real time Go server available on internet : Tygem, CyberOro, IGS and KGS. Two of them are Asia operated, IGS and KGS are both free of charge but not open source. KGS seems to be the more popular at the moment due to the way people can create open games and the great teaching tools. I think there must be many more than four on-line real-time Go servers. When I last counted (more than five years ago) there were about 50. The largest, in terms of users, was at http://www.ourgame.com, with over 20,000 Go-players connected at one time. I don't read Chinese, so I can't tell you if it still supports Go. At first I tried to get in touch with the dev person behind KGS to discuss possible modifications to make kgs usable by near blind people, but he refuses to talk about opening the client, the protocol or the server. I wanted to avoid starting a new server from scratch ( with the huge chances to not get anywhere ), but it looks like there is no way to discuss with him. I guess some members of your team are regular on those online Go servers. And maybe already though about such project. I do believe there is room for improvement and an open source alternative : A documented, open protocol and a server project. Like NNGS? Nick I would like to know if your team is interested, have some ideas, or know other person that would be. I am not a coding person myself, I do work in IT, but know nothing about code and my hobby is drawing ... Though, I would obviously help at all the other levels, get in touch with people, test, write documentation, translate, host and manage ... and so on. Best regards, PS : Gnu GO gives me a hard time at my lunch break every day ... ;D -- Raphaël Giudici phone : +33 (0)6 32 56 14 85 mail : raphael.giud...@gmail.com ___ gnugo-devel mailing list gnugo-de...@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _ Das neue Windows 7: Vereinfachen Sie Ihre täglichen Aufgaben. Finden Sie den richtigen PC. http://windows.microsoft.com/shop___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Hi! BTW, thanks to Ben for forwarding the original mail. On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:02:52PM +0100, Wolfgang Krames wrote: Benjamin Teuber from Germany works for IGS to make the official client more attractive to western players, e.g. he plans to add a kgs-like-review-tool. You can tell him your wishes (like making igs usable for near blind people) and if possible he will add them to glgo in the future. This is very interesting information! At the same time, I think the key aspect for most users is the social one. People like to create communities (c.f. the social network sites) and KGS does that very well while IGS doesn't really. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] benchmark tests for static evaluation functions
Thanks for the comment. On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, David Fotland wrote: I think you can only evaluate static evaluation in the context of a search and a tournament between programs. You could start with a simple 1-ply search and play against gnugo. Strength in life and death or predicting pro moves doesn't correlate with the ability to win games. I know of the limited correlation, also it depends how you test the evaluation function. Having only limited time to work on and off on Go I do not have a game-playing program and tested the function on its own on professional games. Anyway, my question was whether people had published any related tests. Thomas David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wolf Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:03 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: [computer-go] benchmark tests for static evaluation functions Last year I was working on a static evaluation function. Does anyone know references about published benchmark tests for static evaluation functions, for example, in predicting moves in professional games or best moves in life and death problems or predicting the status of semeai problems? The published benchmarks need not be for a static evaluation function in the traditional sense, they could be for an opening book or a MCTS program with very short times available. Thanks, Thomas Wolf ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org wrote on 18-01-2010 11:34:52: (i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. I don't think that's correct - NNGS was a functional copy of IGS created by duplicating the published (telnet based) interfaces. It eventually was open sourced before it died. (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. Yes. It is intended to compile and install out-of-the-box. Most of my contribution to the source was to make the program easyer to install and administer. I have done some tidying and refactoring, too. NNGS is alive and well as software, but no one is actively running a copy for human use as far as I know. Boardspace is still running a completely ignored copy, intended to be used by robots. http://boardspace.net/nngs/ In my personal opinion, there are a few NNGS clones running in asia. Most of them have been overhauled beyond recognition (= translated) You need reasonable detailed knowledge and information (eg formatting errors; trailing space on lines;) to recognise them as clones. The NNGS source @ sourceforge gets a handfull of downloads per day; I really don't know what people are doing with it. I get only one or two forum-responses per year, so maybe the software is perfect ;-) If one wanted to develop a client for the blind, you could certainly start with a NNGS clone as your target server, and one of the open source IGS clients as your client. I can imagine WMS to not wanting to get involved in protocol-opening-stuff anymore; it is a waste of time. The whole server-wars started in the first place because of the open protocol, not open to implementation. NNGS is (provably) derived from FICS (a chess server), I don't know about IGS's origins, since I never saw its source. For those who want to construct client-software: The protocol.txt file still floating around on the net somewhere; reversed engineering of IGS and NNGS will do the rest. Don't blame me for the protocol; it's terrible, but we're stuck with it. NB: My excuses for the Macro-based translation effort. Translation is bullshit anyway, since most users use a client and never use the commandline or read the help pages. It was started because some (polish?,Chinse?) guys had created translated forks of the code, which we wanted to remerge. HTH, Adriaan van Kessel. Disclaimer RIVM___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org wrote on 18-01-2010 09:21:43: Back up a bit - what's your primary interest ? I can readily believe that not many near blind play Go on the internet now, but what makes you believe a properly supportive server would bring them out of the woods, or that FSF would be interested in supporting it? And if so, why must it be open source? Maybe the blind people want to read the source ? On second thought: they'd rather not. ;-) AvK Disclaimer RIVM___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 05:43:34PM +0100, Adriaan van Kessel wrote: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org wrote on 18-01-2010 11:34:52: (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. Yes. It is intended to compile and install out-of-the-box. Most of my contribution to the source was to make the program easyer to install and administer. I have done some tidying and refactoring, too. Unfortunately, I have found the task far from trivial since the ratings code is not included for reasons I don't understand, and the only copy I have found seems to use completely different build system to what the NNGS documentation expects. I'm not sure if I even succeeded in the end. Apologies for misinterpreting NNGS origins. Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Pachi/fuego GnuGo hybrid
Le 18/01/2010 à 10:54, Petr Baudis a écrit : it would be great to share other information like LD and semeai critical moves; perhaps GNUGo even provides interface to get these as well. yes, via gtp you can easyly see in gogui :-), and maybe more with gnugo tool (regress.pike ?) Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org wrote on 18-01-2010 18:16:28: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 05:43:34PM +0100, Adriaan van Kessel wrote: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org wrote on 18-01-2010 11:34:52: (ii) NNGS might be used as possible base of a modern go server. The obvious advantage is that _right now_ you have something that you can (in theory) compile, start, connect to and chat and play go on (!) and you can evolve things from here. Yes. It is intended to compile and install out-of-the-box. Most of my contribution to the source was to make the program easyer to install and administer. I have done some tidying and refactoring, too. Unfortunately, I have found the task far from trivial since the ratings code is not included for reasons I don't understand, and the only copy I have found seems to use completely different build system to what the NNGS documentation expects. I'm not sure if I even succeeded in the end. The ratings (mlrate, by PEM) is a bit of a problem, since the build needs it, even if you don't use them. It original was an add-on, but the code got more or less intertwined. It still is on my TODO list ... Maybe I could just supply a stub-version. AvK Disclaimer RIVM___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
If accessibility is the only criterion, a client would do the trick; it would need an open protocol. It's been a bit of an inconvenience that KGS does not publish an open-protocol interface. As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. I've heard complaints about the implementation of the rules, and some have argued that it is not terribly bot-friendly. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone. --Frederic Bastiat ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
Even though KGS is not open, you can still reverse engineer it, right? Why not create an accessible web interface to KGS? terry mcintyre wrote: If accessibility is the only criterion, a client would do the trick; it would need an open protocol. It's been a bit of an inconvenience that KGS does not publish an open-protocol interface. As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. I've heard complaints about the implementation of the rules, and some have argued that it is not terribly bot-friendly. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone. --Frederic Bastiat ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
If the protocol isn't open, it can be changed. It is believed that wms did just that to frustrate open-source clients. There may be some justification to his argument that buggy clients were causing problems with his server. From: Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com Even though KGS is not open, you can still reverse engineer it, right? Why not create an accessible web interface to KGS? terry mcintyre wrote: If accessibility is the only criterion, a client would do the trick; it would need an open protocol. It's been a bit of an inconvenience that KGS does not publish an open-protocol interface. As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. I've heard complaints about the implementation of the rules, and some have argued that it is not terribly bot-friendly. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Pachi/fuego GnuGo hybrid
The SlugGo team is working towards a Fuego/GG hybrid. But just as our cluster distributed GG added a few new evaluation functions, we are working on an additional evaluation module for Fuego. Work had been slow, but we intend complete the addition to Fuego prior to integrating that into the existing GG based SlugGo code. I agree that Fuego has a steep learning curve, but I also think it is well worth the effort. The basic architecture of SlugGo was designed to be a multi-brain approach, but when we started GG was the only open source engine available, and we always thought it best to build from an existing Go engine rather than develop our own from scratch. Cheers, David On 17, Jan 2010, at 11:14 PM, petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone tried doing pachi/Fuego + GnuGo hybrid slightly in way Many FAces is done? If I understood correctly Manyfaces is mostly a plausible move generator. And serac is widened via the RAVE. So simplest hybrid could rather simple words that often used before huge effort taking for ever. When a new node is initialized: Contact GnuGo using GTP and load situation, send genmove, send topmoves and you have a starting point for simulations. Obviously this is not what GG was designed for and will do loads of overhead but could be interesting. I would have tried I but I could not get Pachi to compile under Cygwin and currently I do not a linux machine. Also Fuego had some problems building under cygwin -and has steeper learning curve. Also it would slow under cygwin. At least Pachi multicore due to threading. Petri___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: Pachi/fuego GnuGo hybrid
Has anyone tried doing pachi/Fuego + GnuGo hybrid slightly in way Many FAces is done? We have an experimental version that uses knowledge from my old program Explorer in Fuego. It gives a bonus in terms of a number of won simulations to moves considered good by the knowledge. As shown in one of Guillaume Chaslot's papers, you can run expensive knowledge in heavy nodes in the tree which already had many simulations, since there are not many of those. We have positive results for three types of knowledge on 19x19. Nothing worked on 9x9 so far. 1. tactical search - give bonus to move capturing/saving unsettled block of stones 2. patterns - give bonus to moves proposed by Explorer's hand-built library of patterns (about 4000, irregular size and shape) 3. move filter - hard-prune a small set of moves that Explorer would also hard-prune With each of those in isolation we have 60-70% wins against plain Fuego in fast games. We do not know a good combination of the three, since the current implementation does not allow us to run more than one such extension at a time. It is not hard to generalize, but we have not done it yet, and it would need testing/tweaking of parameters. Martin___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:14 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: (i) IGS is derivation of NNGS, which is free software (GPLv2)! It has even seen some slight development in past few years. ... As tempting as it is, I find it unlikely that incremental improvements on the current crop of servers / server protocols is likely to attract a critical mass of developers. Far more interesting (from my point of view) would be to throw out the current protocol approach and build a new protocol based on Jabber / XMPP / Google Wave (which are essentially the same thing). The beauty of this approach is that it outsources several issues that the current approach struggles with (i18n, security, timing, authentication, account maintenance, etc) to groups who appear to know what they're doing. Of course, developing for such a platform would be significantly more complex, but with such a protocol you can even imagine disaggregating the server into constituent parts based roles in a traditional tournament: game-organiser / match-maker; time keeper; adjudicator; record-keeper; etc. cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fwd: [gnugo-devel] (GNU) Open source real time Go server
Giudici Raphaël wrote: I contacted the FSF to talk about the possible creation of an open source real time Go server backed up by the FSF. According to John Sullivan, they are interested by such project and advised me to get in touch with your team. Perhaps using the GGZ Gaming Zone (http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/) would be a good way forward. I've never played there myself, and I'm not sure whether or not it's currently a lively place. But if it is, then this might be a solution for both the running a server is a lot of admin effort and the people want friends to chat with, not just opponents to play problems. Their web site implies that there is some Go support already, but that it needs work. -M- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
In message 4b54a0f7.1090...@gmail.com, Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com writes Even though KGS is not open, you can still reverse engineer it, right? Why not create an accessible web interface to KGS? Obvious answer: because with the next KGS server upgrade, your client would stop working. Nick terry mcintyre wrote: If accessibility is the only criterion, a client would do the trick; it would need an open protocol. It's been a bit of an inconvenience that KGS does not publish an open-protocol interface. As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. I've heard complaints about the implementation of the rules, and some have argued that it is not terribly bot-friendly. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone. --Frederic Bastiat ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:57:11PM -0500, Michael Williams wrote: Even though KGS is not open, you can still reverse engineer it, right? Why not create an accessible web interface to KGS? I have been doing that with http://kam.mff.cuni.cz/~pasky/cgoban-h/. It's a huge amount of work to do _and_ to keep it up-to-date with KGS software/protocol changes, uncertain to last (there are easy ways for wms to thwart this effort for good if he wants) and borderline ethically. Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. an SE can't be any smarter than a computer player that runs in the amount of time that you're willing to wait for the SE to calculate*. so don't expect much. ever. recall that the SE runs locally in your client. s. * proof: if it were, then it would make a better computer player by just evaluating its score estimate at all legal board points and choosing the maximum at each move. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 06:21:40PM -0500, steve uurtamo wrote: As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. an SE can't be any smarter than a computer player that runs in the amount of time that you're willing to wait for the SE to calculate*. so don't expect much. ever. recall that the SE runs locally in your client. I contest that pachi's ownermap would usually make better estimates when given the same time to run as SE (which can take a long time in some cases). Besides, ability to manually change stones status would fix most of the peeves. But I guess there's no use to reiterate here all the things that are already mentioned in http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSWishlist and are unlikely to be ever implemented anyway. * proof: if it were, then it would make a better computer player by just evaluating its score estimate at all legal board points and choosing the maximum at each move. That proves it won't run in more time than time for the SE to calculate TIMES number of legal moves. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
Le 18/01/2010 à 18:37, terry mcintyre a écrit : My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. The best thing to do would be to remove the score estimator which prevent people from thinking. I bet there would be much less stupid chat during games whithout it :) Alain. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
When I say the SE is wildly off, I'm not referring to positions which only a pro could evaluate but positions which a double-digit kyu player could correctly evaluate. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Open source real time Go server
Your point is obvious but that's a horrible proof since there are usually more than one legal moves from which to chose (that means it takes more time). steve uurtamo wrote: As for other things we'd like to see improved, we could build a list. My pet peeve is the KGS score estimator, which is often wildly wrong. an SE can't be any smarter than a computer player that runs in the amount of time that you're willing to wait for the SE to calculate*. so don't expect much. ever. recall that the SE runs locally in your client. s. * proof: if it were, then it would make a better computer player by just evaluating its score estimate at all legal board points and choosing the maximum at each move. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: Pachi/fuego GnuGo hybrid
I've tried that idea, using GNU Go as a candidate move generator, a few years ago but no success though it's not an exhaustive evaluation. The code (for Linux) is available at my web http://www.gggo.jp. That feature is #if'ed by USE_ORACLE in the source code of GGMC Go or Fudo Go. #GG here is not the abbriviation of GNU Go but my handle, which means grandfather or old man in Japanese. :) Hideki petri.t.pitka...@gmail.com: 000e0ce0d5d874d7ee047d6b1...@google.com: Has anyone tried doing pachi/Fuego + GnuGo hybrid slightly in way Many FAces is done? If I understood correctly Manyfaces is mostly a plausible move generator. And serac is widened via the RAVE. So simplest hybrid could rather simple words that often used before huge effort taking for ever. When a new node is initialized: Contact GnuGo using GTP and load situation, send genmove, send topmoves and you have a starting point for simulations. Obviously this is not what GG was designed for and will do loads of overhead but could be interesting. I would have tried I but I could not get Pachi to compile under Cygwin and currently I do not a linux machine. Also Fuego had some problems building under cygwin -and has steeper learning curve. Also it would slow under cygwin. At least Pachi multicore due to threading. Petri inline file ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- g...@nue.ci.i.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Kato) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
