Re: [Computer-go] Operators for Frisbee Go Simulation

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello,

> There is no way in GTP to distinguish intentional from unintentional
> passes, so I suppose the simplest way is to perform things manually.

Manually would mean. In each situation the followiong has to happen:
(i) The program to move proposes a move x or a PASS. 
(ii) In case of a move x a die is rolled to decide to which place y on the 
board 
this move goes. y is returned to the program and to the opposing program.
In case of an unintended pass this information has to be returned to both 
programs.
(iii) In case of an intended PASS tis is transmitted to the other program.

So: the programs for this manual mode need to have the possibility
to enter move, unintended passes, and intended passes. Of course also
takeback of moves should be possible to deal with operator errors.

> Maybe it is an informal tournament and time controls don't really matter.

There should be some time limit like 30 seconds or 1 minute per move (for
the process that leads to proposal x or PASS) - and the operators should give 
their word of honor that they have implemented this.

By the way: All programs should run on (more or less) identical hardware.
 

> Also, do these remote participations come at a fee? :-)

Of course: 50 Euro when a programmer participates "only" in Frisbee Go 
simulation.
And 25 Euro only, when Frisbee Go simulation is his second or third or ... game 
in
this Olympiad.

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board, representation

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Thanks for all advices !  I have a lot of informations to start :-)
I hope I'll be back soon with some code to show !
Jean-Francois

> There isn't a lot of info on this[1], so it will probably be a hard
> journey for a fast representation. But the things a Go board
> representation usually focus on are
>
> 1. simulating play and then undoing (or telling what happens after a
> play: liberties left, stone captures)
> 2. fast pattern hashing
> 3. ascertaining qualities of groups of stones, safety, neighbors, etc
>
> The need for these things makes itself apparent little by little.
>
> Pachi has its state representation commented a lot, maybe even too much:
> https://github.com/pasky/pachi/blob/master/board.h
>
> I think the starting point of any representation is that a single point
> is needed for testing ko. :-)
>
> [1] Some actual examples:
> Emil H.J. Nijhuis's thesis, "Learning Patterns in the Game of Go"
> Martin Müller, "Computer Go" (2002)
> https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_17.html
> https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_15.html
>
> Gonçalo
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[David Doshay]

Look at:

https://github.com/lukaszlew/libego

it is a much better start than Fuego. Fuego is a fine program if you are an 
expert C++ programmer, but is a pretty big package to understand well if you 
wish to do so quickly. Libego is much easier to understand and is also 
sometimes very clever.


Cheers,
David G Doshay

ddos...@mac.com





> On 10, Apr 2016, at 12:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang  wrote:
> 
> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go programming. 
> I have a chess programming background, but I want to start something new. :-)
> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ; 
> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some 
> articles or tips on this ?
> Thanks,
> Jean-Francois
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to Zen19X, winner of the April 13x13 KGS bot tournament
with nine wins from ten games!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/121/index.html
As usual I will welcome your comments.  But I am much too weak a player to
have anything useful to say about the games.

Nick
-- 
Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Petr Baudis]

  Hi!

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 09:19:17AM +0200, Jean-Francois Romang wrote:
> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go programming.
> I have a chess programming background, but I want to start something new.
> :-)
> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ;
> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
> articles or tips on this ?

  I agree with the advice that it's not worth overthinking too much.
You will likely be interacting with your board through a set of methods
anyway, so you can always optimize the backend easily.  For example,
some more optimized board representations use union-find chain
representation to be able to quickly join stone chains; but I'm not
sure if any of the higher level programs actually bothered to do it.

  I'd also recommend that you do not overoptimize your board
representation for a simple Go engine - you may squeeze out a lot of
performance from your board representation, but then suddenly you
realize that for a more sophisticated Go-playing you also need to
quickly find out say the number of liberties of your group (or find
the actual liberties efficiently) - and at that moment, a lot of your
earlier tricks become quite worthless.

-- 
Petr Baudis
If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers,
you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Jim O'Flaherty]

What programming language and OS environment have you chosen?
On Apr 10, 2016 2:19 AM, "Jean-Francois Romang"  wrote:

> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go
> programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start
> something new. :-)
> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ;
> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
> articles or tips on this ?
> Thanks,
> Jean-Francois
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Ray Tayek]

On 4/10/2016 12:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang wrote:
Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go 
programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to 
start something new. :-)
I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go 
engine ; now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are 
there some articles or tips on this ?


i've only fooled around with this a /little/, bit at the lowest level, 
but i would start with something like below.


i suspect there is a lot more stuff that can be precalculated for a 
particular board size.


thanks

public class Go {
enum Color {
black,white,vacant,edge; // edge can be useful
}
enum Direction {
n,s,e,w,ne,nw,se,sw
}
class Neighbors {
Neighbors(int width,int depth) {
this.width=width;
this.depth=depth;
this.size=(width+2)*(depth+2);
n=new int[size];
s=new int[size];
e=new int[size];
w=new int[size];
ne=new int[size];
nw=new int[size];
se=new int[size];
sw=new int[size];
// lots more init required, but it this is constant for any 
width and depth

}
final int width,depth,size;
int[] n,s,e,w,ne,nw,se,sw; // index of neighbor
}
class Board {
Board(Neighbors neighbors) {
this.neighbors=neighbors;
colors=new Color[neighbors.size];
}
final Color[] colors;
final Neighbors neighbors;
}
}

--
Honesty is a very expensive gift. So, don't expect it from cheap people - 
Warren Buffett
http://tayek.com/

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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Álvaro Begué]

Hi,

I also did computer chess before go (and checkers before chess). I would
start with a straight-forward implementation and learn with it. If you end
up finding your board representation limiting, rewrite it.

Here's some code from my program:

int const N = 19;
int const XN = N + 2;
int const XN2 = XN * XN;

enum class Color : char {
  Empty, Black, White, Outside
};

inline bool is_occupied(Color c) {
  return c == Color::Black || c == Color::White;
}

inline Color enemy(Color c) {
  return c == Color::Black ? Color::White : c == Color::White ?
Color::Black : Color::Empty;
}

struct Board {
  Color array[XN2];
  int chain_id[XN2];
  int chain_size[XN2];
  int chain_liberties[XN2];
  int next_in_chain[XN2];
  int age[XN2];
[...]



On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang 
wrote:

> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go
> programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start
> something new. :-)
> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ;
> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
> articles or tips on this ?
> Thanks,
> Jean-Francois
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[djhbrown .]

Jean-Francois Romang wrote " I want to start something new. :-)"

do you mean an engine new to Go programming, or just something new to you?

if the latter, you could copy and paste a published algorithm or
recode alphago which is fully described by its Nature paper.  that
would be like reinventing the steam engine or colouring in a
paint-by-numbers picture; it will keep you busy and you would
doubtless learn a lot about programming in the process, but it won't
be anything new.

but if the former, you could consider starting to build a new kind of
engine that works using a truly new method, such as the one i have
described in earlier postings to this list, or (much easier) writing a
few lines of interface code to get NAO to play Go.

either way, i venture to suggest that a fine detail like a board
representation is just about the last thing you should worry about,
unless you plan to build your engine by a process of trial and error
without first thinking through how it's going to work.
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Petri Pitkanen]

There are several open source go programs. I would start by investigating
Fuego and Pachi code

2016-04-10 11:34 GMT+03:00 Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira :

> There isn't a lot of info on this[1], so it will probably be a hard
> journey for a fast representation. But the things a Go board
> representation usually focus on are
>
> 1. simulating play and then undoing (or telling what happens after a
> play: liberties left, stone captures)
> 2. fast pattern hashing
> 3. ascertaining qualities of groups of stones, safety, neighbors, etc
>
> The need for these things makes itself apparent little by little.
>
> Pachi has its state representation commented a lot, maybe even too much:
> https://github.com/pasky/pachi/blob/master/board.h
>
> I think the starting point of any representation is that a single point
> is needed for testing ko. :-)
>
> [1] Some actual examples:
> Emil H.J. Nijhuis's thesis, "Learning Patterns in the Game of Go"
> Martin Müller, "Computer Go" (2002)
> https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_17.html
> https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_15.html
>
> Gonçalo
>
>
> On 10/04/2016 09:00, Oliver Lewis wrote:
> > There's a discussion of some of the issues in Petr Baudis' PhD thesis:
> > http://pachi.or.cz/
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go
> >> programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start
> >> something new. :-)
> >> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go
> engine ;
> >> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
> >> articles or tips on this ?
> >> Thanks,
> >> Jean-Francois
> >> ___
> >> Computer-go mailing list
> >> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> >> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

There isn't a lot of info on this[1], so it will probably be a hard
journey for a fast representation. But the things a Go board
representation usually focus on are

1. simulating play and then undoing (or telling what happens after a
play: liberties left, stone captures)
2. fast pattern hashing
3. ascertaining qualities of groups of stones, safety, neighbors, etc

The need for these things makes itself apparent little by little.

Pachi has its state representation commented a lot, maybe even too much:
https://github.com/pasky/pachi/blob/master/board.h

I think the starting point of any representation is that a single point
is needed for testing ko. :-)

[1] Some actual examples:
Emil H.J. Nijhuis's thesis, "Learning Patterns in the Game of Go"
Martin Müller, "Computer Go" (2002)
https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_17.html
https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/gnugo_15.html

Gonçalo


On 10/04/2016 09:00, Oliver Lewis wrote:
> There's a discussion of some of the issues in Petr Baudis' PhD thesis:
> http://pachi.or.cz/
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go
>> programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start
>> something new. :-)
>> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ;
>> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
>> articles or tips on this ?
>> Thanks,
>> Jean-Francois
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Oliver Lewis]

There's a discussion of some of the issues in Petr Baudis' PhD thesis:
http://pachi.or.cz/



On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Jean-Francois Romang 
wrote:

> Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go
> programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start
> something new. :-)
> I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine ;
> now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some
> articles or tips on this ?
> Thanks,
> Jean-Francois
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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[Computer-go] Beginner question : how to choose a board representation

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello to everyone ; I'm a newcomer in this list and computer go 
programming. I have a chess programming background, but I want to start 
something new. :-)
I'm currently in the early phases of developing GTP compatible go engine 
; now it's time for me to choose a board representation : are there some 
articles or tips on this ?

Thanks,
Jean-Francois
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