Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[David Doshay]

A long time ago there existed the ‘formal’ and the ‘open’ divisions. Because 
SlugGo used so much GNUGo code in a way such that SlugGo could offer several 
stones and still beat GNUGo, it was decided that whenever both bots were 
available for the tournament one would be in one division and the other would 
be in the other division. This was also the way that newer bots could start 
playing in tournaments without getting every detail of the game-end protocol 
correct.

Or at least that is what I remember.

Cheers,
David G Doshay

ddos...@mac.com





> On 4, May 2016, at 10:09 AM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> 
> I would happily run more than one division (which the KGS scheduler will 
> regard as separate events). Is there enough interest to justify a second 
> division?
> 
> Nick
> 
> On 4 May 2016 at 15:46, Urban Hafner  > wrote:
> There used to be many more entrants in the past IIRC. And we never split into 
> several tournaments or leagues. But I also feel we should wait for Nick to 
> chime in. I think we had this exact same discussion a while ago but I can’t 
> remember the outcome. ;)
> 
> Urban
> 
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira  > wrote:
> Has the number of programs risen that much?
> 
> I'd prefer not adding self-declared ranking limitations, though as a
> spectator handicap matches are interesting.
> 
> Anyways, Urban, I can enter my program too if you want, it is well
> bellow GNU Go in 19x19.
> 
> Gonçalo
> 
> On 04/05/2016 15:27, Erik van der Werf wrote:
> > Or switch to McMahon / Handicaps
> >
> > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Sebastian Scheib  > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a first,
> >> second and so... categories.
> >>
> >> 2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty  >> >:
> >>
> >>> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps there
> >>> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
> >>> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots earn
> >>> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
> >>> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
> >>> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker bots)
> >>> rises.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner  >>> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
>  than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
>  other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested 
>  in
>  this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
>  entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
> 
>  Urban
> 
>  On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd   > wrote:
> 
> > The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
> > and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits
> > of 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5.
> > See http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030 
> > 
> >
> > Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament 
> > Registration"
> > in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com  .
> >
> > Nick
> > --
> > Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com 
> >
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> > 
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> >>>
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> >>> 
> >>>
> >>
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> >> 

Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Urban Hafner]

That sounds reasonable to me. The downside for you Nick is of course that it's 
possible that there's bugs in the program and that it will just crash. ;) But 
at least against GnuGo that hasn't happened in a long time. 

And I guess once people complain that this setup is unfair towards their 
programs then it's maybe time for a second division. 

Urban

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 04.05.2016 um 19:06 schrieb Nick Wedd :
> 
> Here's a suggestion.  I would like to hear what Urban, and others, think 
> about it.
> 
> I enter GnuGo in these events to keep the numbers even. The operators of 
> strong bots don't want to waste processor cycles proving that they can beat 
> GnuGo, but they prefer it to a bye.
> 
> Instead of my using GnuGo to make the numbers even, I could use Urban's 
> program. The downside for Urban is that he would have to get it connected and 
> running, with only a 50% chance that it will actually get any games.  The 
> upside for him is that it will sometimes get experience against much stronger 
> players.  I assume that the operators of the strong programs don't care 
> whether they get to play against GnuGo or Urban's program.
> 
> By the way - I haven't yet received any entries for this Sunday's tournament. 
>  I hope my message reached the list.
> 
> Nick
> 
>> On 4 May 2016 at 10:01, Urban Hafner  wrote:
>> I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker than 
>> GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course other 
>> weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in this 
>> (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from entering 
>> tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>> 
>> Urban
>> 
>>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>>> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC, and 
>>> finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits of 14 
>>> minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5. See 
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>>> 
>>> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament 
>>> Registration" in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>>> 
>>> Nick
>>> -- 
>>> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
>> Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>> 
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> 
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Arthur Cater]

> Somehow my neural net has a blur at "j" and "y”.

That must get yollj awkward at times!
:)
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Aja,

sorry for this. Of course I meant the bot "Aya".

It seems, I will never learn it consistently.
Somehow my neural net has a blur at "j" and "y".
 
> Thanks Ingo for listing me with two strong Go programs. 
> I think I can give GnuGo 9 stones on 19x19 board. :)
 
Hmm, not 10 ?

But seriously: How many stones can give current AlphaGo to GnuGo?

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Nick Wedd]

I would happily run more than one division (which the KGS scheduler will
regard as separate events). Is there enough interest to justify a second
division?

Nick

On 4 May 2016 at 15:46, Urban Hafner  wrote:

> There used to be many more entrants in the past IIRC. And we never split
> into several tournaments or leagues. But I also feel we should wait for
> Nick to chime in. I think we had this exact same discussion a while ago but
> I can’t remember the outcome. ;)
>
> Urban
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
> wrote:
>
>> Has the number of programs risen that much?
>>
>> I'd prefer not adding self-declared ranking limitations, though as a
>> spectator handicap matches are interesting.
>>
>> Anyways, Urban, I can enter my program too if you want, it is well
>> bellow GNU Go in 19x19.
>>
>> Gonçalo
>>
>> On 04/05/2016 15:27, Erik van der Werf wrote:
>> > Or switch to McMahon / Handicaps
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Sebastian Scheib <
>> stackpointe...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a
>> first,
>> >> second and so... categories.
>> >>
>> >> 2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty > >:
>> >>
>> >>> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps
>> there
>> >>> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
>> >>> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots
>> earn
>> >>> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
>> >>> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
>> >>> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker
>> bots)
>> >>> rises.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot
>> weaker
>>  than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of
>> course
>>  other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is
>> interested in
>>  this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
>>  entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>> 
>>  Urban
>> 
>>  On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>> 
>> > The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00
>> UTC,
>> > and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits
>> > of 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of
>> 7.5.
>> > See http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>> >
>> > Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament
>> Registration"
>> > in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>> >
>> > Nick
>> > --
>> > Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Computer-go mailing list
>> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  --
>>  Blog: http://bettong.net/
>>  Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
>>  Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>> 
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>> >>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Nick Wedd]

Here's a suggestion.  I would like to hear what Urban, and others, think
about it.

I enter GnuGo in these events to keep the numbers even. The operators of
strong bots don't want to waste processor cycles proving that they can beat
GnuGo, but they prefer it to a bye.

Instead of my using GnuGo to make the numbers even, I could use Urban's
program. The downside for Urban is that he would have to get it connected
and running, with only a 50% chance that it will actually get any games.
The upside for him is that it will sometimes get experience against much
stronger players.  I assume that the operators of the strong programs don't
care whether they get to play against GnuGo or Urban's program.

By the way - I haven't yet received any entries for this Sunday's
tournament.  I hope my message reached the list.

Nick

On 4 May 2016 at 10:01, Urban Hafner  wrote:

> I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
> than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
> other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
> this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
> entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>
> Urban
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>
>> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
>> and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits of
>> 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5. See
>> http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>>
>> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament Registration"
>> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>>
>> Nick
>> --
>> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>>
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>
>
>
> --
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> Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
> Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Urban Hafner]

There used to be many more entrants in the past IIRC. And we never split
into several tournaments or leagues. But I also feel we should wait for
Nick to chime in. I think we had this exact same discussion a while ago but
I can’t remember the outcome. ;)

Urban

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
wrote:

> Has the number of programs risen that much?
>
> I'd prefer not adding self-declared ranking limitations, though as a
> spectator handicap matches are interesting.
>
> Anyways, Urban, I can enter my program too if you want, it is well
> bellow GNU Go in 19x19.
>
> Gonçalo
>
> On 04/05/2016 15:27, Erik van der Werf wrote:
> > Or switch to McMahon / Handicaps
> >
> > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Sebastian Scheib <
> stackpointe...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a
> first,
> >> second and so... categories.
> >>
> >> 2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty :
> >>
> >>> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps
> there
> >>> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
> >>> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots
> earn
> >>> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
> >>> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
> >>> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker
> bots)
> >>> rises.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot
> weaker
>  than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of
> course
>  other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is
> interested in
>  this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
>  entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
> 
>  Urban
> 
>  On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> 
> > The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00
> UTC,
> > and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits
> > of 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5.
> > See http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
> >
> > Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament
> Registration"
> > in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
> >
> > Nick
> > --
> > Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
> >
> > ___
> > Computer-go mailing list
> > Computer-go@computer-go.org
> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> >
> 
> 
> 
>  --
>  Blog: http://bettong.net/
>  Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
>  Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
> 
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

Has the number of programs risen that much?

I'd prefer not adding self-declared ranking limitations, though as a
spectator handicap matches are interesting.

Anyways, Urban, I can enter my program too if you want, it is well
bellow GNU Go in 19x19.

Gonçalo

On 04/05/2016 15:27, Erik van der Werf wrote:
> Or switch to McMahon / Handicaps
> 
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Sebastian Scheib 
> wrote:
> 
>> That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a first,
>> second and so... categories.
>>
>> 2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty :
>>
>>> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps there
>>> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
>>> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots earn
>>> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
>>> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
>>> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker bots)
>>> rises.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
 than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
 other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
 this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
 entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.

 Urban

 On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
> and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits
> of 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5.
> See http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>
> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament 
> Registration"
> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>
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 Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
 Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/

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>>>
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>>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Erik van der Werf]

Or switch to McMahon / Handicaps

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Sebastian Scheib 
wrote:

> That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a first,
> second and so... categories.
>
> 2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty :
>
>> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps there
>> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
>> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots earn
>> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
>> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
>> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker bots)
>> rises.
>>
>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
>>> than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
>>> other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
>>> this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
>>> entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>>>
>>> Urban
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>>>
 The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
 and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits
 of 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5.
 See http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030

 Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament 
 Registration"
 in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .

 Nick
 --
 Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com

 ___
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 Computer-go@computer-go.org
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
>>> Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Sebastian Scheib]

That would be good, something like in other sports where you have a first,
second and so... categories.

2016-05-04 11:00 GMT-03:00 Jim O'Flaherty :

> Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps there
> could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
> computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots earn
> the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
> requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
> filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker bots)
> rises.
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner 
> wrote:
>
>> I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
>> than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
>> other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
>> this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
>> entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>>
>> Urban
>>
>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>>
>>> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
>>> and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits of
>>> 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5. See
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>>>
>>> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament Registration"
>>> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> --
>>> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Computer-go mailing list
>>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Blog: http://bettong.net/
>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
>> Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Jim O'Flaherty]

Hmmm...if bots weaker than GnuGo are actively discouraged, perhaps there
could be a separate tournament level for that grouping of "aspiring
computer Go" entrants (if it isn't too much extra work). Having bots earn
the right to move into the higher level of (i.e. have met the entry
requirement of "consistently beats GnuGo version X.Y) might be a nice
filter as the number of those desiring to participate (with weaker bots)
rises.

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:01 AM, Urban Hafner 
wrote:

> I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
> than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
> other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
> this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
> entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.
>
> Urban
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>
>> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
>> and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits of
>> 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5. See
>> http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>>
>> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament Registration"
>> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>>
>> Nick
>> --
>> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>>
>> ___
>> Computer-go mailing list
>> Computer-go@computer-go.org
>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Blog: http://bettong.net/
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
> Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] May KGS bot tournament

[Urban Hafner]

I’m considering entering with my bot but it’s rather weak (a lot weaker
than GnuGo on 19x19) so I don’t know if it makes sense. Unless of course
other weaker bots were willing to enter as well. If no one is interested in
this (or if it’s even discouraged by Nick) then I would refrain from
entering tournaments that I have no chance in beating GnuGo.

Urban

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> The May KGS bot tournament will start on Sunday, May 8th at 16:00 UTC,
> and finish by 22:00 UTC.  It will use 19x19 boards, with time limits of
> 14 minutes each plus very fast Canadian overtime, and komi of 7.5. See
> http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?id=1030
>
> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament Registration"
> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
>
> ___
> Computer-go mailing list
> Computer-go@computer-go.org
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
>



-- 
Blog: http://bettong.net/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
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