Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-10 Thread Darren Cook
 This was not tested in any formal way, but including the book does seem
 to increase the chance that the program will open with E5 (which I
 believe is the correct opening move on 9x9) ...

Just a side note, as I've spent a lot of time studying high-level 9x9
games. I've seen strong players win against other strong players
starting with any of the 6 plausible openings moves: 5,5;  5,4;  4,4;
5,3; 3,4; 3,3. When the pros switched form 5.5 to 6.5pt komi there were
more 4,4 openings played and fewer 5,5 openings. But this does not mean
that 4,4 is better than 5,5.

Anyway, my point was, it would be dangerous to think your program is
playing better because it starts choosing 5,5 more often. However,
choosing one of those six moves more than a first move on the 1st or 2nd
lines could probably be considered an improvement.

Darren




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Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-08 Thread terry mcintyre
Thanks, Peter! I have a question or two regarding the opening book, based on a 
collection of 3000 9x9 games provided by Nici Schraudolph. Who played the games 
in this collecton - pros, strong amateurs, or go programs? 

Second,  were any statistics on the  number of game moves  in book versus 
out of book collected?  

Lastly,  it was assumed that the book moves were winning moves; was this 
hypothesis ever tested on a move-by-move basis, whether against GnuGo or itself?

Many thanks  for an  informative  paper!

- Original Message 
From: Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]

By the way, the paper was rejected on first submission, largely  
because we were just testing Orego against itself. We're now testing  
Orego against GNU Go and have a revised version:

https://webdisk.lclark.edu/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-2352013_1-t_Gct7yJ5s%22

(Markus, could you change the link and title? This was DPSV07.)

Peter Drake
Assistant Professor of Computer Science
Lewis  Clark College
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/

On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Chris Fant wrote:

 In this paper, you say that you limit the number of moves to
 BoardArea*2 during the playouts.  For me, this barely increases the
 playout rate and slightly reduces the strength (perhaps not
 statistically significant).

 Your paper does not mention suicide.  Prohibiting single-stone suicide
 during playout gave me a nice increase in playout rate and strength.


 On 11/28/06, Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here it is:

 https://webdisk.lclark.edu/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-2115826_1-t_OX34gnaB







 

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Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-08 Thread Eric Boesch

On 2/7/07, David Doshay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On 7, Feb 2007, at 1:35 PM, Don Dailey wrote:

 Although suicide can occasionally be the best move in some
 rule-sets,  I think it weakens your program to include it,

At best you are going to get a ko threat, so it requires a pretty
sophisticated program to know how and when to use it.



There are weird cases where suicide is more than just a ko threat.

http://www.goban.demon.co.uk/go/bestiary/rule_challenge.html

(Just picking nits.)
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Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-07 Thread Don Dailey
You should never play suicide, whether multiple or single stone
in the play-out portion of the search - ESPECIALLY when it's not
legal anyway in the rule-set you are using.

Although suicide can occasionally be the best move in some
rule-sets,  I think it weakens your program to include it,
even in the UCT tree portion of an MC search.  If the rule-set
allows suicide, I believe it's best to just let your program
accept suicide moves from the opponent.

- Don



On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 13:23 -0800, Christoph Birk wrote:
 On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Chris Fant wrote:
  Your paper does not mention suicide.  Prohibiting single-stone suicide
  during playout gave me a nice increase in playout rate and strength.
 
 Does you program allow multiple-stone suicide during playout?
 myCtest does NOT allow it; and neither does GenericMC_ by Don.
 
 Christoph
 
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Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-07 Thread Chris Fant

Okay, thanks for the feedback.  I mentioned that I was allowing
multi-stone suicide a couple days ago but no one said anything.  It
seems little more complicated to check for than single-stone suicide
when only tracking pseudo-liberties.  But I will get it in there and
see what kind of improvement happens and how much it affects the
speed.


On 2/7/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You should never play suicide, whether multiple or single stone
in the play-out portion of the search - ESPECIALLY when it's not
legal anyway in the rule-set you are using.

Although suicide can occasionally be the best move in some
rule-sets,  I think it weakens your program to include it,
even in the UCT tree portion of an MC search.  If the rule-set
allows suicide, I believe it's best to just let your program
accept suicide moves from the opponent.

- Don



On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 13:23 -0800, Christoph Birk wrote:
 On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Chris Fant wrote:
  Your paper does not mention suicide.  Prohibiting single-stone suicide
  during playout gave me a nice increase in playout rate and strength.

 Does you program allow multiple-stone suicide during playout?
 myCtest does NOT allow it; and neither does GenericMC_ by Don.

 Christoph

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Re: [computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2007-02-07 Thread Peter Drake
By the way, the paper was rejected on first submission, largely  
because we were just testing Orego against itself. We're now testing  
Orego against GNU Go and have a revised version:


https://webdisk.lclark.edu/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-2352013_1-t_Gct7yJ5s%22

(Markus, could you change the link and title? This was DPSV07.)

Peter Drake
Assistant Professor of Computer Science
Lewis  Clark College
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/




On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Chris Fant wrote:


In this paper, you say that you limit the number of moves to
BoardArea*2 during the playouts.  For me, this barely increases the
playout rate and slightly reduces the strength (perhaps not
statistically significant).

Your paper does not mention suicide.  Prohibiting single-stone suicide
during playout gave me a nice increase in playout rate and strength.


On 11/28/06, Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Here it is:

https://webdisk.lclark.edu/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-2115826_1-t_OX34gnaB

Peter Drake
Assistant Professor of Computer Science
Lewis  Clark College
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/



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[computer-go] Paper presents results on proximity heuristic

2006-11-28 Thread Peter Drake

Here it is:

https://webdisk.lclark.edu/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-2115826_1-t_OX34gnaB

Peter Drake
Assistant Professor of Computer Science
Lewis  Clark College
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/



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