Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
Hi Erik, On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Erik van der Werf < erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Aja, > > This result seems consistent with earlier claimed human solutions for 7x7 > dating back to 1989. So what exactly is new? Did he write a program that > actually calculates the value? > Did you mean 7x7 Go was weakly solved before? Aja > Best, > Erik > > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Aja Huangwrote: > >> It's the work by Chinese pro Li Zhe 7p. >> http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_53a2e03d0102vyt5.html >> >> His conclusions on 7x7 Go board: >> 1. Optimal komi is 9.0. >> 2. Optimal solution is not unique. But the first 3 moves are unique, and >> the first 7 moves generate 5 major optimal solutions. >> 3. There are many variations not affecting final score. >> >> Aja >> >> ___ >> Computer-go mailing list >> Computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >> > > > ___ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 11:52:47AM +, Aja Huang wrote: > Hi Erik, > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Erik van der Werf < > erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Aja, > > > > This result seems consistent with earlier claimed human solutions for 7x7 > > dating back to 1989. So what exactly is new? Did he write a program that > > actually calculates the value? > > > > Did you mean 7x7 Go was weakly solved before? I think the question is whether it was exhaustively searched (can be mathematically proven / reproduced) or just (thoroughly) investigated by a human. Petr Baudis ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
Hi Aja, This result seems consistent with earlier claimed human solutions for 7x7 dating back to 1989. So what exactly is new? Did he write a program that actually calculates the value? Best, Erik On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Aja Huangwrote: > It's the work by Chinese pro Li Zhe 7p. > http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_53a2e03d0102vyt5.html > > His conclusions on 7x7 Go board: > 1. Optimal komi is 9.0. > 2. Optimal solution is not unique. But the first 3 moves are unique, and > the first 7 moves generate 5 major optimal solutions. > 3. There are many variations not affecting final score. > > Aja > > ___ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Aja Huangwrote: > Hi Erik, > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Erik van der Werf < > erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Aja, >> >> This result seems consistent with earlier claimed human solutions for 7x7 >> dating back to 1989. So what exactly is new? Did he write a program that >> actually calculates the value? >> > > Did you mean 7x7 Go was weakly solved before? > It depends on what you mean by 'weakly solved'. If we take the definition from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game: *'Provide an algorithm that secures a win for one player, or a draw for either, against any possible moves by the opponent, from the beginning of the game.'* then no, I did not mean that, and that's why I asked you if he actually wrote a program that does this for 7x7. Strong humans players including some pro's claimed to have solved 7x7 already back in 1989 (see my phd thesis for a reference), but AFAIK they did not implement an algorithm, so just like most of the other small board results by humans these were never really proofs in a strict sense. Best, Erik ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
Google translate on the article tells, that there is no algorithm, but that they combined human and computer power on a larger scale to explore all variations. It can't be proven that the result is correct, but the likelihood is ~100%. 2015-11-30 13:20 GMT+01:00 Erik van der Werf: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Aja Huang wrote: > >> Hi Erik, >> >> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Erik van der Werf < >> erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Aja, >>> >>> This result seems consistent with earlier claimed human solutions for >>> 7x7 dating back to 1989. So what exactly is new? Did he write a program >>> that actually calculates the value? >>> >> >> Did you mean 7x7 Go was weakly solved before? >> > > It depends on what you mean by 'weakly solved'. If we take the definition > from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game: > > *'Provide an algorithm that secures a win for one player, or a draw for > either, against any possible moves by the opponent, from the beginning of > the game.'* > > then no, I did not mean that, and that's why I asked you if he actually > wrote a program that does this for 7x7. > > Strong humans players including some pro's claimed to have solved 7x7 > already back in 1989 (see my phd thesis for a reference), but AFAIK they > did not implement an algorithm, so just like most of the other small board > results by humans these were never really proofs in a strict sense. > > Best, > Erik > > > ___ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
Is the video available online? On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Aja Huangwrote: > It's the work by Chinese pro Li Zhe 7p. > http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_53a2e03d0102vyt5.html > > His conclusions on 7x7 Go board: > 1. Optimal komi is 9.0. > 2. Optimal solution is not unique. But the first 3 moves are unique, and > the first 7 moves generate 5 major optimal solutions. > 3. There are many variations not affecting final score. > > Aja > > ___ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] 7x7 Go is weakly solved
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015, Aja Huang wrote: It's the work by Chinese pro Li Zhe 7p. http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_53a2e03d0102vyt5.html His conclusions on 7x7 Go board: 1. Optimal komi is 9.0. Who can enforce a win with this komi? Thomas 2. Optimal solution is not unique. But the first 3 moves are unique, and the first 7 moves generate 5 major optimal solutions. 3. There are many variations not affecting final score. Aja ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go